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Author Topic: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction  (Read 19651 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2011, 09:05:27 am »
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Just while we're on Mint openings, how do you feel about Mandarin/Mint?
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Tonks77

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2011, 09:11:57 am »
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But, in general, I do not buy a Mint in the first two hands unless there is a card that can actually help me get up to $3 or $4. Embargo and Secret Chamber are the only ones I'd consider pairing with Mint. And even Embargo has its risks.

Ever tried Mint + Fool's Gold with a 5-2 start? And surely Mandarin - Mint - FG should also be nice.
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Elysium

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2011, 09:16:38 am »
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OP forgot Pirate Ship
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Epoch

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2011, 12:17:20 pm »
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And surely Mandarin - Mint - FG should also be nice.

Mandarin - Mint is maybe the first combo I've heard that makes me think that Mandarin might have some kind of purpose.  So, you know, kudos.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2011, 01:43:04 pm »
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Mint/FG gets 4 Provinces in 12.4 turns which is very very fast (should beat any deck that doesn't hand out curses). Starting with Mandarin delays that by a turn.
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Fangz

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2011, 02:14:39 pm »
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If you are going for a fool's gold strategy, though, it's likely that the other player will be getting FG as well. If you are down to only 5 FG, having a mandarin to shuffle singleton FGs to the next hand and get $3 is pretty useful.
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rinkworks

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2011, 02:21:42 pm »
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That makes sense to me.  But mightn't it be better not to get the Mandarin until after the Fool's Golds are gone?  If it's a race, you probably need every turn you can get.  An early Mandarin might mean a 4-6 split of Fool's Golds against you, or a 5-5 when you could have had 6-4.

After the Fool's Golds are gone, I can see how a well-timed Mandarin might be nice for connecting them together, though a Courtyard, Cellar, Warehouse, Cartographer, or Council Room might be just as good, if available.

I'm really struggling to figure out what situations are uniquely ideal for Mandarin, but maybe that's a topic better suited to a new thread.
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Epoch

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2011, 02:30:27 pm »
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I don't think that Mandarin/Mint/FG makes a lot of sense -- as people mention, Mint/FG is fine as it is, and anyway it's a 3 card combo that only works with a 5/2 split.  So, srsly, who cares?

But just Mandarin/Mint has something going for it, and it's vastly more likely than the three card combo.
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chwhite

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2011, 02:33:00 pm »
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I'm really struggling to figure out what situations are uniquely ideal for Mandarin, but maybe that's a topic better suited to a new thread.

You are playing a tight, heavily-greened treasure deck, it's near the end of the game, and you have $5 in your hand, so you buy a Mandarin and hope it increases your chance at the last Province next turn.

Or you're going super-heavy Scrying Pool+Village and have cleared out all your treasures and there's no better option for getting cash from Actions, like Harvest or Merchant Ship.  And in that case you take Mandarin not because it's uniquely good, but because it fills a needed niche worse than other cards that aren't there.

Far as I can tell, that's pretty much it.  Mandarin just sucks, and I'm quite comfortable calling it the fourth worst $5 card, better than Explorer, Saboteur, and Stash, with Counting House to round out the bottom 5.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 02:36:02 pm by chwhite »
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Copernicus

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2011, 02:36:48 pm »
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Mandarin - Mint is maybe the first combo I've heard that makes me think that Mandarin might have some kind of purpose.  So, you know, kudos.

Buying a Mandarin over a Duchy in order to try for a Province next turn is also useful.  There's also Tactician with $13 to $15 -> Province/Mandarin -> Province next turn -> Duchy/$5 the following turn.

-----------

For Tunnel and self-discard, I've had poor games with trying to get it going on anything that is discard from the top of my deck or 1-2 discard from my hand.  I also was destroyed by an opponent going Village/Goons/Margrave.

I think in terms of self-use, Tunnel needs to be discard 3+ from hand or 5+ from the deck.  For defense, it needs to be evaluated as what it is first -- I'm not going to grab it to fight against a Militia or Goons unless I'm already at the stage of the game where victory points are useful.
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DG

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2011, 03:11:42 pm »
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Quote
Mandarin just sucks, and I'm quite comfortable calling it the fourth worst $5 card, better than Explorer, Saboteur, and Stash, with Counting House to round out the bottom 5.

[/size]
[/size]I'm usually quite sympathetic to the various cards and I think stash, saboteur, and explorer are perfectly fine in their place. Even the counting house does its job when it rarely needs to do it. I'm having a hard time spotting when the mandarin would be an excellent card, and even when it seems a decent idea the window of opportunity seems particularly small.
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Amaranth

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2011, 03:57:48 pm »
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Or you're going super-heavy Scrying Pool+Village and have cleared out all your treasures and there's no better option for getting cash from Actions, like Harvest or Merchant Ship.  And in that case you take Mandarin not because it's uniquely good, but because it fills a needed niche worse than other cards that aren't there.

Actually, Mandarin would let you stack your extra Scrying Pools on top of your deck, making sure you open your next turn with a Scrying Pool in hand. So in that regard it would be better than other +coin actions that don't give +action.
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chwhite

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2011, 04:13:31 pm »
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Or you're going super-heavy Scrying Pool+Village and have cleared out all your treasures and there's no better option for getting cash from Actions, like Harvest or Merchant Ship.  And in that case you take Mandarin not because it's uniquely good, but because it fills a needed niche worse than other cards that aren't there.

Actually, Mandarin would let you stack your extra Scrying Pools on top of your deck, making sure you open your next turn with a Scrying Pool in hand. So in that regard it would be better than other +coin actions that don't give +action.

Ooh, good point.  The trick of course is finding a way to buy it without slowing you down by top-decking your Treasures, so perhaps it's best as a supplement to other income sources in a Scrying Pool deck.
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rrenaud

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2011, 04:26:56 pm »
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I also like Mandarin in tournament games.  It serves as a pseudo haven for comboing the tournament and the province, and the early access to +3 (assuming you can chuck an estate back) let's you get an early province.
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Qvist

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2011, 09:03:13 am »
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Hi. I think Vault/Tunnel is a great combo.
With a 3/4 start open Tunnel and a Card that get you to 5 quickly.
With a 5/2 start open Vault.
Then buy Tunnel with 3/4 and Vault with 5/6/7
Every time discard Tunnel to get a Gold.
Every time you have a Vault and Gold in hand you can buy a Province.

Here I have 8 Provinces and 4 Tunnels in 18 turns in a single player game which - I think - is pretty impressive.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/29/game-20111029-055241-19fd30f1.html

What do you think?
Anybody wants to simulate that?

Geronimoo

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2011, 10:29:11 am »
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Hi. I think Vault/Tunnel is a great combo.
What do you think?
Anybody wants to simulate that?
It seems great if you open $5/$2, but it will probably be beaten if you open $4/$3.
The Tunnel/Silver buy is also wrong. You should open Silver/Silver then get Tunnels after you have a Vault.
Code: [Select]
<player name="Tunnel/Vault" author="Geronimoo" description="Qvist's strategy from the forum:XXXXWith a 3/4 start open Tunnel and a Card that get you to 5 quickly --->>> this bot opens Silver/Silver because it's much betterXXXXWith a 5/2 start open Vault.XXXXThen buy Tunnel with 3/4 and Vault with 5/6/7XXXXEvery time discard Tunnel to get a Gold.XXXXEvery time you have a Vault and Gold in hand you can buy a Province.">
 <type name="Competitive"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Tunnel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Vault">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Vault"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Vault">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Tunnel"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Tunnel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Vault"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
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glasser

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2011, 01:55:21 pm »
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Hi. I think Vault/Tunnel is a great combo.

It's nice, but don't forget that every time you play Vault, your opponent can discard a Tunnel or two for Gold.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2011, 04:05:22 pm »
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It seems to me that Hinterlands has a large number of cards that you don't want to open with, but can be useful after your first or second shuffle. Tunnel is one example. If you buy it right away, it's going to hurt your economy too much.

I'd think twice before opening with Develop, Scheme, Tunnel, Noble Brigand, Spice Merchant, Cartographer, Embassy, Haggler, Highway, Inn, or Mandarin. I wouldn't buy Duchess, period.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2011, 07:39:05 pm »
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I've had a similar experience as most of the rest of you with Tunnel - it seems neat, but it's often way too slow.  In fact, I played a game this afternoon with Chapel, Tunnel, and Goons on the board.  My opponent hit his $6 before I did, and Goons'd away two $6 hands from me while acquiring another one for his deck.  I finally started catching up on Goons and he began loading his deck up with Tunnels.  I was a bit worried at first, but whereas he ended up with a massively clogged deck as he wasted $6 turns on buying 2 Tunnels, I kept a tight, trimmed, Goons deck that worked its way up to the 3+ VP/turns and then dominated the game.
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chesskidnate

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2011, 09:59:28 pm »
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It seems to me that Hinterlands has a large number of cards that you don't want to open with, but can be useful after your first or second shuffle. Tunnel is one example. If you buy it right away, it's going to hurt your economy too much.

I'd think twice before opening with Develop, Scheme, Tunnel, Noble Brigand, Spice Merchant, Cartographer, Embassy, Haggler, Highway, Inn, or Mandarin. I wouldn't buy Duchess, period.
I think that duchess is probably a necessary opener on many boards for 5/2(are you going to pass up duchess/laboratory in favor of just lab/-?)
Also, as to Develop, it is a bit questionable and probably is bad if you draw it after your 4 buy but it certainly can get good if you draw them both and trash the four card for a develop+ $5 card, and then trash the $5 for a $4 and a 6$(gold?), at least when you have a good engine to go for. Additionally, highway doesn't seem to deserve being on this list, except for the fact that you may be passing up a better five. It's opening prospects are about that of market, you'd probably prefer something else but it's at least decent
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Davio

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2011, 05:32:27 am »
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I've had a similar experience as most of the rest of you with Tunnel - it seems neat, but it's often way too slow.  In fact, I played a game this afternoon with Chapel, Tunnel, and Goons on the board.  My opponent hit his $6 before I did, and Goons'd away two $6 hands from me while acquiring another one for his deck.  I finally started catching up on Goons and he began loading his deck up with Tunnels.  I was a bit worried at first, but whereas he ended up with a massively clogged deck as he wasted $6 turns on buying 2 Tunnels, I kept a tight, trimmed, Goons deck that worked its way up to the 3+ VP/turns and then dominated the game.
Tunnel depends heavily on correct timing.

If you play it with Embassy, it's awesome because it's almost impossible to miss the Tunnel in your 9 card hand. With Warehouse, it's still okay, because you have 7 cards before the discard.

Using the Tunnel for its defensive purposes is a lot harder, because two things have to happen at the same time. Your opponent has to play a discarding attack AND you have to have it in your hand. As we learned from Moat, it's rarely useful in 2p games, precisely of this timing coincidence that you need. With 4 players, it's obviously a lot more worthwhile as Reaction cards are often better with more players, due to the increased chances that you'll be attacked at least once in a round.

So, waiting for your opponent to activate your own Tunnel is foolish business. You are often much better off triggering it yourself. Embassy and Warehouse are clearly good choices, but something like a sneaky Golem (and at most one other action card) already suffers from very hefty opportunity costs.

Maybe the one attack card worth defending with Tunnel with is Torturer, because of the pin that players like to play with it. But then you have to ask yourself if you really want to be the one suffering from the pin or the one applying it. I think the latter, because you don't need much excess Golds if you're able to draw most of your deck anyway.
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Tonks77

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2011, 05:44:30 am »
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IMHO Tunnel is best if you manage to discard it without getting it into your hand. I had some nice games with cartographer, and I suspect it to be awesome with venture and adventurer, which allow you to dig for all the gold while producing new golds by discarding the tunnels.

With Golem the problem is, that you produce gold by discarding the tunnels but fail to get the gold in hand at least with the Golem alone.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 05:49:46 am by Tonks77 »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2011, 09:40:34 am »
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I found this interesting. According to Council Room, Young Witch / Tunnel is an amazing opening. Well okay, 23rd best, but once its error steadies out it looks like it will be in the top 15.

Okay so it's obvious why it's such a good opener. You use the YW to discard the Tunnel to get you Golds. But it's just so much better than any other Tunnel opening and any other Young Witch opening.
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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2011, 10:28:17 am »
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YW/Tunnel is quite insane. Simulating this beats just about anything (but I noticed a little bug that excess terminal actions are discarded before the tunnel)
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Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2011, 10:45:57 am »
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YW/Tunnel is quite insane. Simulating this beats just about anything (but I noticed a little bug that excess terminal actions are discarded before the tunnel)

what play rules do you recommend for this?  single tunnel and single young witch?  i've only played one game with the combo (my first game with it, back during the week tunnel came out) but i ended up with a few of each and i think i made a mess of it.
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