Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)  (Read 2594 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

dominator 123

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 164
  • Shuffle iT Username: dominator 123
  • Notice the space
  • Respect: +369
    • View Profile
Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« on: June 16, 2013, 09:46:05 am »
0

I heard that there is no card with 'gain a $4 card, put it into your hand' because it would conflict with nomad camp. But how about this?

Factory v.2 $3
Action-Reaction
+1 action
Gain a card costing up to $3 except Factory
----------------------------
When you gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.

Factory $4
Action-Reaction
+1 action
Gain a card costing up to $3.
----------------------------
When you gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.


The reason why unlike workshop, which can gain itself, Factory can't gain itself because two factories in hand can piledrive the whole factory pile.

Generally, you need to have two in hand to become powerful, but when you do, this can be putting a silver or fishing village or some other power card into your hand!

(Note that you can play any gainer, like Workshop, but its's rare for them to be in the same game.)

A few points that I don't like about this card:

1. This is as swingy as TM to collide. Maybe it should cost $3, but not allow it to gain itself?

2. Does this wording still conflict with Nomad Camp?

Feel free to comment anything good or bad about this card, and how it can be improved. Also inform me if there is a thread with a similar idea.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 09:24:44 am by dominator 123 »
Logged
"Strictly Better" compares only effects and not cost, change my mind

Gveoniz

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
  • Respect: +263
    • View Profile
Re: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2013, 09:52:45 am »
0

With a ironwork and a factory, one can pile-dive iron work.

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1325
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1384
    • View Profile
Re: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2013, 10:40:23 am »
+1

Factory can gain itself if you've played a Highway or Bridge (or, less likely, Quarry or Princess) first.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5347
    • View Profile
Re: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2013, 11:28:16 am »
0

The problem with this card is that gaining any gainer in hand will possibly enable endless chains. Even without it having the ability to gain itself, it's still possible with Ironworks, Horn of Plenty and hands with a Throne Room and two Factories on a Workshop board.

And those are just simple "gain up to" gainers. Think Altar or Soothsayer.
Logged

sylas

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 118
  • Respect: +14
    • View Profile
Re: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2013, 12:03:09 pm »
+1

again this seems to be another form of my card worded differently:

Revelation, $5, Action
+1 Action
Gain a card costing $3 or less and currently not in play. Put it into your hand.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2707
    • View Profile
Re: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2013, 12:07:49 pm »
+1

One way to fix the highway thing would be "Gain a card costing less than this" instead of up to $3.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Fragasnap

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 440
  • Respect: +703
    • View Profile
Re: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2013, 02:04:36 pm »
0

Two big problems with gaining to hand:
1) If it is terminal, it incentivizes gaining Treasures too much.
2) If it is non-terminal, it is often possible to pile-out a card with one copy or a particular combination of cards.

I imagine in order to properly gain to hand, you would want to make an Action that modifies another card. However, to ensure that the card won't be useless, it needs to be able to gain cards on its own in addition to modifying another card.

Factory
Choose one: Gain a card costing up to $4; or +1 Action, and
then you may play an Action from your hand. As you gain
cards from playing that card, put them into your hand.
$4 ACTION

Notice that this card can be applied as either a Workshop or a Village-type.

In order to gain another Factory and put it into hand, you need to have 2 Factories in your hand already and you'll only get one more. With two Factories in hand you can only gain two more Factories rather than piling them out.
Logged
Dominion: Avarice 1.1a, my fan expansion with "in-games-using-this" cards and Edicts (updated Oct 18, 2021)

Warfreak2

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1149
  • KC->KC->[Scavenger, Scavenger, Lookout]
  • Respect: +1324
    • View Profile
    • Music what I do
Re: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2013, 05:17:06 pm »
0

"As you gain cards from playing that card" is problematic; it's not defined in the rules. If I play an Oasis discarding Tunnel gaining Gold, for example, do I put the Gold in my hand? What about Golem into Workshop?
Logged
If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

Fragasnap

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 440
  • Respect: +703
    • View Profile
Re: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2013, 05:40:06 pm »
0

"As you gain cards from playing that card" is problematic; it's not defined in the rules. If I play an Oasis discarding Tunnel gaining Gold, for example, do I put the Gold in my hand? What about Golem into Workshop?
Fair enough, but only in that "...from playing that card" doesn't make much sense.
Going off of Library, this should state:
Factory
Choose one: Gain a card costing up to $4; or +1 Action, and
then you may play an Action from your hand. Put any cards
you gain this way into your hand as you gain them.
$4 ACTION

"Cards you gain this way" is not defined any more than Library's "cards you draw this way," but no one ever argued that Library didn't make sense.

Let's see how obtuse this can get:
Player plays Factory
... Playing Procession
... ... Playing Masquerade
... ... ... Drawing 2 Cards
... ... ... Passing a card
... ... ... Trashing a Hunting Grounds from hand
... ... ... ... Gaining 3 Estates
... Putting 3 Estates into hand
... ... Playing Masquerade again
... ... ... Drawing 2 Cards
... ... ... Passing a card
... ... ... Trashing a Feodum from hand
... ... ... ... Gaining 3 Silvers
... Putting 3 Silvers into hand
... ... Trashing Masquerade
... ... Gaining Baron
... Putting Baron into hand
Logged
Dominion: Avarice 1.1a, my fan expansion with "in-games-using-this" cards and Edicts (updated Oct 18, 2021)

Warfreak2

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1149
  • KC->KC->[Scavenger, Scavenger, Lookout]
  • Respect: +1324
    • View Profile
    • Music what I do
Re: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2013, 06:07:40 pm »
0

The difference is that Library's clause can only possibly refer to cards Library itself draws, whereas this can get, as you say, obtuse. I still don't agree that "this way" unambiguously means what you want it to mean - and "as you gain them" is also weird, it should be "when you gain a card [this way], put it in your hand"

I have an interesting solution which doesn't require any additional rules: a "while this is in play" clause, combined with a "return this to the supply" at the end. Here's an example:

Postal Service, Action, $2
Do this twice: you may play an Action card from your hand.
Return this to the supply.
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, put it in your hand.

It's practically a one-shot Necropolis, but I think gaining to hand is a really powerful effect. On a board with no gainers, it probably won't see much use, but that's the same story as Moat with no Attacks.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 06:10:42 pm by Warfreak2 »
Logged
If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5347
    • View Profile
Re: Gainer with self-synergy: Factory (not playtested)
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2013, 06:30:50 pm »
0

Put any cards
you gain this way into your hand as you gain them.

Problem: You do not gain any cards by playing a card. You gain them by resolving a card you played. "Play" happens before "resolve" happens, which is why no cards are drawn and no curses are gained for Witch before everybody is done with his or her Secret Chamber.

The wording cannot express what you want, and if it could that would break the habit that no card knows what happens with another card other than what it does with the card itself - and as we know sometimes even this fails.

The only real way to reach something like the thing you intended would be a "While this is in play" clause. To make sure it can't be used on itself, you'd have to do a clause like "if you gain a card and are not currently resolving this card" and also remove it from play as soon as you gain a card (to avoid the endless gain chains). Discarding causes other problems, yo you'd have to set it aside, instead.

It's the only solution i can think of, but i wouldn't do it. It's ugly:

Factory
4$, Action
Choose one: Gain a card costing up to $4; or +1 Action, and then you may play an Action Card from your hand.

While this is in play, if you gain a card and are not currently resolving this card, put the gained card in your hand and set this aside. Discard this at the end of your turn.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 06:41:50 pm by Asper »
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.048 seconds with 20 queries.