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SuperHans

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Merchant Guild
« on: June 15, 2013, 03:30:15 pm »
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Merchant Guild
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, take a Coin token.

There seems to be a general consensus that you cannot use the coin tokens earned from a Merchant Guild until the next turn. This seems contrary to the text of the card. According to the text of the card, you earn the coin tokens immediately after purchasing a card. This would mean that you can use the earned coin tokens on a subsequent purchase that very same turn. Could someone on Goko confirm or deny this?

If true, this would lead to some interesting scenarios.

Example #1: Let's say you had three merchant guilds in play.  If you purchased a card, you would then receive three coin tokens.  For your second buy, you could then spend those three coin tokens on a silver and receive three more coin tokens. You can then rinse and repeat until you run out of buys.

Example #2: Let's say you had five merchant guilds in play and five market squares in play. You now have +11 buys. Every time you purchase a card you receive five coin tokens. Hypothetically, you could drain all ten cards from a $5 supply.


After this issue is resolved, let's just maintain this thread as a general discussion for the card since there seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions about Merchant Guild's strength and utility.

EDIT: Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't see that the rules had been posted.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 03:47:58 pm by SuperHans »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2013, 03:34:47 pm »
+5

It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2013, 03:39:28 pm »
+3

It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).

This, and it explicitly says so in the rules.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2013, 05:18:53 pm »
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After playing a couple of games with Merchant Guild, I think it's sort of a chicken-and egg card. You want to buy several good cards with Merchant Guild in play so that you get more Coin tokens without diluting your deck with crap. But since Merchant Guild only gives you $1, you have to get that money elsewhere. Where? Coin tokens. Coin tokens like the ones you get from Merchant Guild.

Hence, it seems Merchant Guild strongly benefits from having a decent number of Coin tokens and therefore combos with other cards that produce Coin tokens. That way you can save the tokens to spend them when you have Merchant Guild in play, netting you a big Coin token rebate while buying good cards.
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Emeric

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2013, 07:17:42 pm »
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It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).
You cannot spend the tokens in the same turn to buy another card, but may you use this coin to overpay a doctor (or another overpayable card) ?

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Tables

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2013, 07:19:51 pm »
+3

It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).
You cannot spend the tokens in the same turn to buy another card, but may you use this coin to overpay a doctor (or another overpayable card) ?



No, because you can't spend tokens this turn. You spend tokens like you play treasures, before buying anything to add to your pool of money.
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Watno

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2013, 07:20:39 pm »
+2

You pay overpaying from the $ you have already got from playing cards or using coin tokens before buying a card. You caN't play more $ after you buy a card, not even to overpay.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 07:21:42 pm by Watno »
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Just a Rube

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2013, 07:23:16 pm »
+1

It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).
You cannot spend the tokens in the same turn to buy another card, but may you use this coin to overpay a doctor (or another overpayable card) ?
Only if you spent it while you were playing treasures.
Conceptually, I think of a coin token as another treasure, like any other, that stays out of your deck and goes away on use. Thus, you "play" it at the same time as you play your coppers, silvers, etc. They all give you money, and that is what you spend to buy/overpay. Whether the money came from a coin token or a treasure makes no difference, just like the game doesn't care if that $8 you spend for a province came from 8 coppers, 6 coppers and a silver or playing 8 markets. It's all money by the time you buy things.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 11:07:15 am »
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I think the fact that it really doesn't boost the economy of your current turn the most interesting thing about this card. Without that it would just be a better bridge.

I still think this card could have been $4, but maybe it's super broken in situations where you buy lots of cards. Quarry+Worker's Village would make this card essential.

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Schlippy

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 11:31:21 am »
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Like with Goons, Watchtower and cheap spamable cards are pretty good combos.
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werothegreat

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 11:40:27 am »
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Like with Goons, Watchtower and cheap spamable cards are pretty good combos.

You don't even need Watchtower with MG - just lots of Buys.  Once you've had a great turn or two with MG, you'll have enough Coin tokens to get all the Provinces in the next couple turns, no matter how crappy your hands are.
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jonts26

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 12:00:16 pm »
+3

I haven't played with this card yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but I feel like people are viewing this card wrong. Other people have discussed the strengths of coin tokens in general, and while this card can generate an obscene amount with the right deck, I think it will be much more useful as a support card, not the payoff card, though it will shine as the payoff every once in a while. Adding a handful of tokens over the course of the game offers an incredible amount of flexibility.

This is of course a card which screams engine. And it gives one crucial engine piece with +buy, though it's a bit pricey. Still, engines usually only need a couple cards with +buy, unlike other vanilla bonuses, so even one or two MG's will be helpful. And of course the coin tokens usefulness is delayed one turn, but with a steady stream of them coming in, it shouldn't be too big of a deal. And in a decent engine, you are usually buying multiple cards per turn anyway, not counting any extra buys you could use on coppers. With 2 MG's buying 3 cards per turn thats 6 coin tokens per turn. And you can do even better than that if you can deal with extra copper buys.

I think if this card cost $4 it would be a no brainer in a large percentage of engines. Pricing it at $5 certainly weakens it a little, but you probably weren't opening with it anyway.
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DG

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 01:11:35 pm »
+1

I think the first card you need to compare it to is a woodcutter. It's an expensive terminal to have in your deck if you are short of actions. It can probably do much better than a woodcutter in a gardens deck or any other copper buying deck (or fool's gold).

I think the next card you need to compare it to is merchant ship, that gives +2 coins now and +2 coins next turn. The merchant's guild is going to struggle to compete with that unless you're buying 2 cards each time the guild is in play, so that's probably how it should be played.

The next card to compare it to is goons. It looks massively weaker than goons even when you can get a lot of merchant's guilds in play. However there are probably some clues here how to play it: heavy action deck, multiple merchant's guild in play, buying many cards at once for big coin collection. Even without big combo turns, it might be wise to save your coins from the merchant's guild until you get another big turn with merchant's guild to make sure your income keeps coming.
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Awaclus

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2013, 05:02:26 am »
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The next card to compare it to is goons. It looks massively weaker than goons even when you can get a lot of merchant's guilds in play.
But coin tokens are better than VP tokens.
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HLennartz

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 09:43:47 pm »
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Here's a game I just played vs the Goko AI where I formed an engine using Merchant Guild

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130620/log.517c14ede4b07cbd3b35b00f.1371778669692.txt

Herald was really the fuel, but it wouldn't have worked without MG. MG still mostly feels like a "Bad Bridge" to me. The major upside, though, is that it effectively reduces Coppers to "negative cost," giving you a return for each copper you buy. On my 2nd last turn, I funneled one Copper buy into 5 coin tokens for the next turn. I still had buys left over, actually, but I didn't want to dilute my action density so much that I wouldn't get the +Buy to use all those coin tokens.

(Note: And the performance of this engine is marred by me making massive handicapping mistakes, like getting a 5/2 split and accidentally passing my 1st turn with 5 copper  :'( And accidentally Procession'ing Horse Traders to throw away all my last key engine cards in hand...)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 09:47:59 pm by HLennartz »
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gman314

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2013, 01:18:04 am »
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Here's my Merchant Guild engine. The VP curve explains it all.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2013, 11:20:47 am »
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So far, I continue to feel vindicated about MG--it's not very good unless you have surplus actions and surplus drawing, which makes it extremely situational. The only other situation where I buy them is on or just before my penultimate shuffle, where a Copper or two is no real penalty and the tokens can help me pick up a Province or Duchy where I'd otherwise fall short.
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blueblimp

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2013, 07:50:00 pm »
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The next card to compare it to is goons. It looks massively weaker than goons even when you can get a lot of merchant's guilds in play.
But coin tokens are better than VP tokens.
Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10). Plus VP cards take up room in your deck.

At first I thought Merchant Guild would play like a worse version of Bridge. It doesn't help your current turn, is more expensive, and doesn't substitute well in strong Bridge combos (KC-Bridge, NV/Bridge). Now though I think that analogy is no good.

The Goons analogy is much more accurate. Merchant Guild is incredibly weaker than Goons, but since Goons is possibly the strongest card in the game, that doesn't make MG bad. It's definitely not strong though.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2013, 11:52:59 pm »
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Considering that $6 cards aren't meant to be that much better than $5 cards, the Goons comparison is brutal

+$2>+$1
VP Tokens>Coin Tokens (by the logic in the above post)
And you get a free Militia style attack as well

I think it's just awesome how a card that looks so similar to Bridge can play so very differently.
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Awaclus

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2013, 10:54:56 am »
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Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10). Plus VP cards take up room in your deck.
Plus they contribute towards ending the game. And so do coins, by allowing you to buy those VP cards. VP tokens do not, and that is a big drawback. Monument with coin tokens would be too good for $4.

Sure, Goons is by far the better card, because it gives +$1 more and attacks, and that makes a big difference. Still, Merchant Guild stacks better, because its "While this is in play" effect is stronger.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2013, 11:00:45 am »
+1

In most cases, I would prefer 100 victory tokens over 100 coin tokens.

Not contributing towards ensuing the game is a good thing, not a drawback. More time for you to get more victory tokens.
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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2013, 11:11:19 am »
+1

Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10). Plus VP cards take up room in your deck.
Plus they contribute towards ending the game. And so do coins, by allowing you to buy those VP cards. VP tokens do not, and that is a big drawback. Monument with coin tokens would be too good for $4.

A Monument that would give you a coin token in stead of the VP would be decidedly weaker.

Quote
Sure, Goons is by far the better card, because it gives +$1 more and attacks, and that makes a big difference. Still, Merchant Guild stacks better, because its "While this is in play" effect is stronger.

Absolutely not. You need 6 Goons in play to make each buy worth a Province, whereas you need 8 Merchant Guilds and some way to actually spend all that money during your subsequent turns.

Goons also gives you much more time and flexibility; you can comfortably let your opponent get seven Colonies before pulling off your mega turn, whereas with Merchant Guild you'd be much too late.
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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2013, 11:17:47 am »
+3

A Monument that would give you a coin token in stead of the VP would be decidedly weaker.

Not sure about that. A better terminal Gold for $4?
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Schneau

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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2013, 11:23:36 am »
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The thing about coin tokens is that you can use them on things besides VP cards, which means you can use them to accelerate/snowball the game. This is not the case with VP tokens, which give you no benefit besides at the end of the game.

This isn't to say that Merchant Guild is as good as Goons, or even close. But, I would guess that Monument that gave coin tokens would be stronger than regular Monument, since it functions more as an early game purchase than Goons usually does.
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Re: Merchant Guild
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2013, 11:25:40 am »
+1

Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10). Plus VP cards take up room in your deck.
Plus they contribute towards ending the game. And so do coins, by allowing you to buy those VP cards. VP tokens do not, and that is a big drawback. Monument with coin tokens would be too good for $4.

A Monument that would give you a coin token in stead of the VP would be decidedly weaker.
While I generally agree that VP tokens are better than coin tokens... I don't know about this. Something that's strictly better than a terminal gold for $4 would be overpowered, no?
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