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Author Topic: Chapel Cost?  (Read 20481 times)

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Kirian

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2013, 12:15:23 pm »
0

Ideally, competitive Dominion would consist of series sufficiently long so good and bad luck even out (a leaderboard system such as Iso's or Goko's fullfills this imo).
In a tournament setting, playing such a long series is not practical. Therefore I do see the point of using equal starting hands there, but don't necessarily agree with.

Agreed on these points.  Long-term leaderboards mitigate the early luck element.  A series of 12-14 games of Dominion might mitigate that at the tournament level... but that becomes unwieldy rapidly.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2013, 02:28:17 pm »
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This is not reductio ad absurdum; this is a slippery slope argument.

Quote from: Wikipedia
In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is an informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect.

No it isn't? If I proposed that playing with equal starting hands would cause people to start equalising all the other randomness, that would be a slippery slope.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2013, 02:33:59 pm »
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This is not reductio ad absurdum; this is a slippery slope argument.

Quote from: Wikipedia
In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is an informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect.

No it isn't? If I proposed that playing with equal starting hands would cause people to start equalising all the other randomness, that would be a slippery slope.

I believe he's saying your reductio ad absurdum agrument implicity relies on the assmption of a valid slippery slope argument.  If your (implied) assumption of a slippery slope argument were true, then the rest would work.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2013, 02:34:23 pm »
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Actually colliding or not colliding Chapel with your opening terminal is probably more important than opening Chapel/$5 or Chapel/$4. And they collide quite a lot of time, while Chapel/$5 isn't very frequent. Therefore, I don't think Chapel being $2 instead of $3 or $4 makes things too luck-based.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2013, 05:41:17 pm »
+2

Stated another way, a game of (competitive) Dominion really only starts on what we normally call Turn 3; at that time, after two purchases, you have had the chance to manage your luck on turns 3, 4, 5, etc.  Dominion itself starts with Turn 1, however, because otherwise special rules would need to be introduced, and this would be just plain weird to non-competitive players.
Because choosing your opening buys well is not part of competitive Dominion????

Kirian

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2013, 06:58:18 pm »
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Stated another way, a game of (competitive) Dominion really only starts on what we normally call Turn 3; at that time, after two purchases, you have had the chance to manage your luck on turns 3, 4, 5, etc.  Dominion itself starts with Turn 1, however, because otherwise special rules would need to be introduced, and this would be just plain weird to non-competitive players.
Because choosing your opening buys well is not part of competitive Dominion????

Choosing your opening buys is part of the game, yes, but it does not require the same mechanical functions as the rest of the game.  The first two turns of a Dominion game are as different from the other turns as the first turn in TTA is from the other turns.  In TTA, special provisions make that first turn different.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2013, 07:24:28 pm »
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Stated another way, a game of (competitive) Dominion really only starts on what we normally call Turn 3; at that time, after two purchases, you have had the chance to manage your luck on turns 3, 4, 5, etc.  Dominion itself starts with Turn 1, however, because otherwise special rules would need to be introduced, and this would be just plain weird to non-competitive players.
Because choosing your opening buys well is not part of competitive Dominion????

Choosing your opening buys is part of the game, yes, but it does not require the same mechanical functions as the rest of the game.  The first two turns of a Dominion game are as different from the other turns as the first turn in TTA is from the other turns.  In TTA, special provisions make that first turn different.
I have never played nor read the rules of TTA, so I can't speak to that point. But I fail to see how it doesn't require the same mechanical functions as the rest of the game - it is all covered by the same rules. I mean, sure, you *can* force identical start hands, but similarly you *could* force equivalent shuffle luck, or have deck stacking, or any of a number of things. In which case, you are just changing the game. Which is not to say version A is better or worse than version B, just that it's no longer the same game.

It seems to me like your point boils down to "Equalizing starting hands improves the game, but equalizing later draws doesn't."

Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2013, 08:07:28 pm »
+1

As a practical consideration, for mirror strategies you can't ensure equivalent shuffle luck if those strategies involve any interactive cards. It's really easy to ensure equivalent opening hands.
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popsofctown

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2013, 08:45:42 pm »
+4

I agree with WanderingWinder that luck is often an important part of a game's design, and adds more than it takes away.

I disagree that this pertains to 5/2 starts though.  Player 1 does not make any decisions before he finds out whether he will open 2/5, 3/4, 4/3, or 5/2.  That's a very key difference.
See, Treasure Map adds to the game because before you buy the Treasure Map, you make a decision.  Do you buy Treasure Map and take the risk?  Do you skip it and not take the risk?  Then this complexity enhances the game.  The player has to weigh the odds of Treasure Map's failure against its success before he decides whether to buy it.  After he buys it, it will either collide or whiff, and will either validate the player's intuitions or punish his foolishness.

When player 1 draws 5/2, he makes no decision before hand whatsoever.  His first decision of the game is how many of his five coppers he will play, by that point, the slot machine has already spun.  There's no decision that we enriched with the possibility of 3/4 or 5/2 that occurred beforehand.  No decision occurred before hand.

Of course, the possibility and mystery that player 2 drew 5/2 or 3/4 actually adds a little depth the player 1's turn one buy. Not enough that I would support player 2's ability to draw either one, but there is definitely a position you can take there that that is good for strategic richness.

But the question of whether player 1 draws 5/2 or 3/4 doesn't enrich any decision.  It increases the total number of possibilities in the game, which decreases the likelihood that any two games play out in a similar fashion.  It doesn't improve the individual quality of any of those games though. 

All that's left is the notion that no two games feel alike.  But that's dominion's strength.  It's brutish knockout strength.  Games feel so dissimilar in Dominion that the community doesn't even put very much time or effort into developing new kingdom randomization rules, because you actually can throw them in a fishbowl and yank cards out and it's hard to improve upon that, every game already feels different.  Well.  The ones without Governor.  And 5/2 mirrors and 5/2 versus 3/4 games have a tendency to feel a heck of a lot like eachother, so much so it's not even obviously clear they are increasing that feel of dissimilarity.  5/2 starts put a lot of fast BM strategies like Witch, Mountebank, Trading Post, and Vault over the top, decreasing their need for other cards because those 5$ cards are designed for the other 86% of games or whatever the percentage is. 

I find it incredibly hard to argue that the game is at its best when player 1 might draw 5/2 or 3/4.  I find it exponentially easier to oppose any other watering down of randomization, even up to leaving player 2's split random.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 08:47:50 pm by popsofctown »
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ragingduckd

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2013, 08:55:30 pm »
+1

I disagree that this pertains to 5/2 starts though.  Player 1 does not make any decisions before he finds out whether he will open 2/5, 3/4, 4/3, or 5/2.  That's a very key difference.
See, Treasure Map adds to the game because before you buy the Treasure Map, you make a decision.  Do you buy Treasure Map and take the risk?  Do you skip it and not take the risk?  Then this complexity enhances the game.  The player has to weigh the odds of Treasure Map's failure against its success before he decides whether to buy it.  After he buys it, it will either collide or whiff, and will either validate the player's intuitions or punish his foolishness.

This is why they always deal everyone they same starting hands in poker.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2013, 09:08:52 pm »
+1

I disagree that this pertains to 5/2 starts though.  Player 1 does not make any decisions before he finds out whether he will open 2/5, 3/4, 4/3, or 5/2.  That's a very key difference.
See, Treasure Map adds to the game because before you buy the Treasure Map, you make a decision.  Do you buy Treasure Map and take the risk?  Do you skip it and not take the risk?  Then this complexity enhances the game.  The player has to weigh the odds of Treasure Map's failure against its success before he decides whether to buy it.  After he buys it, it will either collide or whiff, and will either validate the player's intuitions or punish his foolishness.

This is why they always deal everyone they same starting hands in poker.

Apples to oranges.

The whole point of Poker is how you play with the cards you are dealt and make the most of your luck.  The whole point of Dominion is how you build your deck and make your own luck.  OK, yes, that's a gross over-simplification of two complex games.  Certainly there are elements of the former in Dominion, but there is also merit in ensuring the same starting hands.  But starting hands can sometimes be decisive, and forcing the same starting hand is an easy thing to do to mitigate this luck that players can do nothing about. 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 09:10:01 pm by eHalcyon »
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popsofctown

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2013, 09:29:21 pm »
0

I disagree that this pertains to 5/2 starts though.  Player 1 does not make any decisions before he finds out whether he will open 2/5, 3/4, 4/3, or 5/2.  That's a very key difference.
See, Treasure Map adds to the game because before you buy the Treasure Map, you make a decision.  Do you buy Treasure Map and take the risk?  Do you skip it and not take the risk?  Then this complexity enhances the game.  The player has to weigh the odds of Treasure Map's failure against its success before he decides whether to buy it.  After he buys it, it will either collide or whiff, and will either validate the player's intuitions or punish his foolishness.

This is why they always deal everyone they same starting hands in poker.
Poker needs unique starting hands so that every hand isn't very similar.  I clearly indicated why Dominion doesn't need that.


It's also hard to "appeal to authority" to poker and treat its design decisions as perfect  I don't see much basis for that.  It's the best way to get a gambling rush if you have a deck of 52 cards to work with.  If you consider how little people are willing to play it with 0$ stakes it's actually a pretty unpopular game given how often it will be lying around.

That's not to say it's not a good game or that's not a good gambling game.  You just can't easily make a head to head comparison. 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 09:35:22 pm by popsofctown »
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2013, 02:44:25 am »
0

A little side note on the subject of chapels cost (4 vs 2) if chapel costs 4 then doctor is a better buy.
For example if on 5/2 I was going to open chapel I might as well open doctor, and overpay 2, almost guaranteeing that I have at least a 5/3 start.
proof left as an exercise.
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blueblimp

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2013, 06:04:06 am »
+1

I disagree that this pertains to 5/2 starts though.  Player 1 does not make any decisions before he finds out whether he will open 2/5, 3/4, 4/3, or 5/2.  That's a very key difference.
See, Treasure Map adds to the game because before you buy the Treasure Map, you make a decision.  Do you buy Treasure Map and take the risk?  Do you skip it and not take the risk?  Then this complexity enhances the game.  The player has to weigh the odds of Treasure Map's failure against its success before he decides whether to buy it.  After he buys it, it will either collide or whiff, and will either validate the player's intuitions or punish his foolishness.

This is why they always deal everyone they same starting hands in poker.
Poker is a betting game. The whole point is to judge the strength of your hand against your best guess of the strength of other players' hands. If you drew a bad opening hand, you can mitigate your bad luck by folding. Dominion has no betting mechanic of any kind.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2013, 11:33:40 am »
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This is not reductio ad absurdum; this is a slippery slope argument.

Quote from: Wikipedia
In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is an informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect.

No it isn't? If I proposed that playing with equal starting hands would cause people to start equalising all the other randomness, that would be a slippery slope.

Nah, your argument isn't a valid slippery slope at all. I don't think you can convincingly argue that setting identical starting hands leads down a clear and inevitable path to X, particularly considering that setting identical starting hands is something that has already been done and it led to precisely nothing you described.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2013, 12:05:31 pm »
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Then it would be pretty silly if I had made that sort of argument, wouldn't it?
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Kirian

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2013, 12:06:51 pm »
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I think pops expressed more clearly what I was trying to say succinctly.  The first two turns are inherently different.

It seems to me like your point boils down to "Equalizing starting hands improves the game, but equalizing later draws doesn't."

On some level, yes.

This is why they always deal everyone they same starting hands in poker.

That's not the comparison being made.  The correct comparison is: this is why the first hand of a poker match allows betting, bluffing, and folding, rather than simply having everyone reveal the hand dealt to them and the winner taking the opening pot.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2013, 12:34:32 pm »
+2

I totally disagree about the first two turns being different than the rest of the game. You can play actions cards during those turns, you can get on-buy effects, there's no difference to any other turn.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2013, 12:44:04 pm »
0

I totally disagree about the first two turns being different than the rest of the game. You can play actions cards during those turns, you can get on-buy effects, there's no difference to any other turn.

I think the difference is that the first two turns are predetermined. You have had no influence over your possible draws. From turn 2 onwards, cards you chose to add to your deck may now appear in your hand. You have had some influence on it, however slight and subject to luck that still is.

This is, of course, ignoring cards like NB a or Doctor where your t1 choice can influence t2.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2013, 12:51:15 pm »
+5

Just to make one point: if we're forcing the beginning of the game to be the same for whatever, we should only be talking about forcing an identical turn 1. Normally, this leads to an identical turn 2 as well, but there are player decisions which can come into effect by then.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2013, 01:37:49 pm »
+1

Just to make one point: if we're forcing the beginning of the game to be the same for whatever, we should only be talking about forcing an identical turn 1. Normally, this leads to an identical turn 2 as well, but there are player decisions which can come into effect by then.

Should the order of the next five cards be identical?  What if both players open with a $6 Doctor, and one trashes 3 Estates while the other trashes 2 Coppers and an Estate?  Similar scenarios for Nomad Camp or even Noble Brigand.

Edit:  By the way, have people ever explored opening Inn on a 5/2 split in hopes of drawing Inn turn 2 and using its sifting for a better hand?  You could potentially draw ICCEE, and then draw EC for a total of CCCE on turn 2.  Not sure when this would be a good opening, but surely there are edge cases.

Edge case:  Maybe open Inn on a Tunnel board.  Maybe you could even buy the Tunnel turn 2.  And MAYBE even trash your Hovel while doing so.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 01:43:09 pm by SirPeebles »
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2013, 01:47:10 pm »
0

Inn on 5/2 is reasonable. You're quite likely to get basically a 5/3 opening - it's likely better than opening 4/nothing, and probably better than some $5s. I don't think it's that much of an edge case, you just have to have nothing overly dominating at $5 so no Witch or Mountebank or stuff of that power level. It's not going to happen every game but it'll happen.

Identical starting hands does weird things with Doctor. If I open Doctor and we have identical card sequences, you'd now have information about what your Doctor would trash if you overpaid for it.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 01:49:13 pm by ftl »
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jonts26

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2013, 01:51:58 pm »
0

Just to make one point: if we're forcing the beginning of the game to be the same for whatever, we should only be talking about forcing an identical turn 1. Normally, this leads to an identical turn 2 as well, but there are player decisions which can come into effect by then.

Should the order of the next five cards be identical?  What if both players open with a $6 Doctor, and one trashes 3 Estates while the other trashes 2 Coppers and an Estate?  Similar scenarios for Nomad Camp or even Noble Brigand.

Edit:  By the way, have people ever explored opening Inn on a 5/2 split in hopes of drawing Inn turn 2 and using its sifting for a better hand?  You could potentially draw ICCEE, and then draw EC for a total of CCCE on turn 2.  Not sure when this would be a good opening, but surely there are edge cases.

Edge case:  Maybe open Inn on a Tunnel board.  Maybe you could even buy the Tunnel turn 2.  And MAYBE even trash your Hovel while doing so.

The biggest problem with allowing the next 5 cards to be identical in order is that say p1 buys a doctor, p2 is given unfair knowledge of the rest of his deck to make a more informed decision about possibly overpaying.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2013, 01:52:51 pm »
0

Yes, you two are both right.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2013, 02:09:29 pm »
+1

What if you started with identical hands, but your other five cards begin in the discard rather than the draw pile?  In particular, it would usually be possible to draw your t1 purchase right away.
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