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Schneau

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Chapel Cost?
« on: June 15, 2013, 02:45:50 pm »
+1

Would you price Chapel at $2 knowing what you do now?
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SCSN

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2013, 03:17:19 pm »
+1

Not sure what you mean by "knowing what you do now", as Chapel is one of the most straight-forward cards?

I don't think it matters much whether it costs $2, $3 or $4. At $5 it would lose most of its strength to the point that it would be way overpriced. So I think it's perfectly fine at $2, especially because while it's a strong card, it's not strong in a spamable way.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2013, 03:47:47 pm »
+1

I voted 2, but maybe 3 is also acceptable.

The main problem with it being 2 is that you could couple it with a powerful $5.
If it were 3 and someone would open Mountebank/-, you have a better chance if you're the one starting with the Chapel.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2013, 03:57:16 pm »
+1

$2. Chapel is not overpowered, really.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2013, 04:05:34 pm »
+2

I think it's good that regardless of your opening, you can open Chapel/Silver. Now getting a 5/2 is often very good in Chapel kingdoms, but it would absolutely suck to open 5/2 if Chapel was $3.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2013, 04:51:02 pm »
+4

relevant:

Quote
People often talk about changing the cost and I don't think that gets you anywhere. At $4 you get less interesting games, not more interesting ones, and exchanging the 2/5 opening being especially good for the 2/5 opening being especially weak is a wash for me. If I had thought it was a mistake to print it at $2, I would have replaced it, not charged more for it.

And I will add, that this is the case in general. In that other thread about changing costs, there are a few cards where you could change the cost without really helping or hurting anything, but in general the cards that are weak or strong can only be fixed by changing what the card does. They just aren't far enough off.

(source)
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2013, 08:04:02 pm »
+7

Ok, let's see if I can piss off everybody at once. :)

I'm stunned by the poll results. Chapel is a no-brainer at $2 and it would still be a great card at $3. Don't try to assess its objective cost or weep for your lost Chapel/Witch openings. Just compare Chapel to the reasonably-priced $3 cards. In Qvist's 2013 list, the median $3 card is Storeroom. Great! I promise never to buy Storeroom again. In exchange, whenever it shows up in the kingdom, I'm allowed to buy a $3 Chapel instead, ok?

As to Donald's opinion on the matter, well... Donald is wrong, or at least he's missing the point. A $2 Chapel only makes the game more interesting because it balances out another questionable design decision: all the crap in your starting deck. If you want to make the game more interesting (i.e. faster and with a better chance for engines), just start with less crap. An underpriced Chapel gets you to the same place, but with a whole lot more shuffle luck.

Donald's general claim is wrong too. Most of the mis-priced cards are at least $1 off. I'd certainly still buy a $5 Tournament and pass on a $5 Adventurer. Plenty of cards could be made more reasonable by changing the price. The game would be better for it, too. The best kingdoms have a variety of playable cards and a range of reasonable strategies. The worst ones have a single dominating card and a bunch of overpriced/underpowered crap you just ignore.

Lots of games publish errata, revised editions, banned card lists, and alternative start/win conditions. Even Chess is a revised version of Shatranj. Dominion could benefit from a little revision too.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2013, 08:11:08 pm »
+1

Ok, let's see if I can piss off everybody at once. :)

I'm stunned by the poll results. Chapel is a no-brainer at $2 and it would still be a great card at $3. Don't try to assess its objective cost or weep for your lost Chapel/Witch openings. Just compare Chapel to the reasonably-priced $3 cards. In Qvist's 2013 list, the median $3 card is Storeroom. Great! I promise never to buy Storeroom again. In exchange, whenever it shows up in the kingdom, I'm allowed to buy a $3 Chapel instead, ok?

As to Donald's opinion on the matter, well... Donald is wrong, or at least he's missing the point. A $2 Chapel only makes the game more interesting because it balances out another questionable design decision: all the crap in your starting deck. If you want to make the game more interesting (i.e. faster and with a better chance for engines), just start with less crap. An underpriced Chapel gets you to the same place, but with a whole lot more shuffle luck.

Donald's general claim is wrong too. Most of the mis-priced cards are at least $1 off. I'd certainly still buy a $5 Tournament and pass on a $5 Adventurer. Plenty of cards could be made more reasonable by changing the price. The game would be better for it, too. The best kingdoms have a variety of playable cards and a range of reasonable strategies. The worst ones have a single dominating card and a bunch of overpriced/underpowered crap you just ignore.

Lots of games publish errata, revised editions, banned card lists, and alternative start/win conditions. Even Chess is a revised version of Shatranj. Dominion could benefit from a little revision too.
Well, Donald did say that a Dominion 2 was possible and would interact with things like I bolded.

Hmm. I wonder if it would be possible to have Operation: Dominion Errata. It's code name would be "Code Name: Kings Court." This message will blow up in 5...4...3...2...

EDIT: I may be talking silly, but I'm being serious. Operation: Dominion Errata should actually happen sometime.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 08:13:44 pm by StrongRhino »
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popsofctown

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2013, 08:23:35 pm »
+5

I would say allowing both 5/2 and 3/4 starts is the more questionable design decision.  There's just little necessity for it.  When you set up your starting deck it takes more work to randomize between 5/2 and 3/4 than it does to stack it for 3/4.  And while the existence of 5/2 mirrors and 5/2 versus 3/4 increases the total number of possibilities out there for Dominion, there's a lot of total possibilities out there for Dominion already, so you don't really need that variance to help you get there. 

Really, it's a less defensible design decision than Saboteur, even less defensible a design decision than Treasure Map, imo.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2013, 08:27:26 pm »
+1

The problem is that if Chapel is needed in the kingdom (it most of the time is), it would be WAY too unfair for one person to be able to open with it and the other not to.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2013, 08:35:50 pm »
+7

Ok, let's see if I can piss off everybody at once. :)

I'm stunned by the poll results. Chapel is a no-brainer at $2 and it would still be a great card at $3. Don't try to assess its objective cost or weep for your lost Chapel/Witch openings. Just compare Chapel to the reasonably-priced $3 cards. In Qvist's 2013 list, the median $3 card is Storeroom. Great! I promise never to buy Storeroom again. In exchange, whenever it shows up in the kingdom, I'm allowed to buy a $3 Chapel instead, ok?

As to Donald's opinion on the matter, well... Donald is wrong, or at least he's missing the point. A $2 Chapel only makes the game more interesting because it balances out another questionable design decision: all the crap in your starting deck. If you want to make the game more interesting (i.e. faster and with a better chance for engines), just start with less crap. An underpriced Chapel gets you to the same place, but with a whole lot more shuffle luck.

Donald's general claim is wrong too. Most of the mis-priced cards are at least $1 off. I'd certainly still buy a $5 Tournament and pass on a $5 Adventurer. Plenty of cards could be made more reasonable by changing the price. The game would be better for it, too. The best kingdoms have a variety of playable cards and a range of reasonable strategies. The worst ones have a single dominating card and a bunch of overpriced/underpowered crap you just ignore.

Lots of games publish errata, revised editions, banned card lists, and alternative start/win conditions. Even Chess is a revised version of Shatranj. Dominion could benefit from a little revision too.

It's clear you've thought things through, but I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of points.

Firstly, the starting deck. In a deckbuilder, your starting deck HAS to be mostly crap, or things stop making sense. Well, there's ways around it, but certainly in Dominion's case, you'd need radical changes to make it not the case. The reason for this is: The cards in your starting deck form a baseline - you're going to be improving your deck every turn for the rest of the game, or otherwise scoring points. And if you're goal is to improve your deck, you're going to be buying cards that are on average better than your starting cards, at worst. And that means, you won't want to buy cards that are only as good as your starting cards, or worse. Which means, every card available to buy should be at least better than the starting cards. If you improve the starting cards, suddenly you need to upscale everything else, and then you end up in more or less the same position you started in, or you can just leave it as is and end up with much faster, much swingier games.

Now, there are exceptions to just about every step of reasoning above. You can do things like having a very varied staring deck, of 10 different cards, each serving very different functions. Then you might buy cards worse than some of the starting ones to direct your deck (this is not dissimilar to Eminent Domain, but that has different mechanics and different gaining rules). And the obvious big exception that you were probably screaming at your monitor (well, perhaps not quite) is attacks, especially cursers, where your deck can quickly end up worse than it was at the start due to being flooded with bad cards. But those are a rare case (that is, rare it slows you down that much) and even then, you can still buy more of your basic cards.

What you say about Chapel isn't really the case. The main reason Chapel costs $2 is so you can get it if you realise you need it, such as beginners in those chapel flood games. And it's not an automatic buy, and loses you some tempo early if you do go for it. Like most cards, in the right place it's a big game shifter, it just so happens to cost $2. The real question I think is, which is worse, 5/2 openings with Chapel on the 2 against 4/3 openings with chapel, or 5/2 with chapel unavailable because it costs 3 against 4/3 openings with chapel. I can't answer that, I would need to test it it a lot, but Donald already did and says 2 is the best cost, so I'll defer to his wide experience.

As for what you say about other cards, I think very few can really be properly called mispriced. Tournament at $5 would be... a lot weaker. It would be a poor $5, except when you can get a Prize out of it, which is generally late game, when the distinction between $5 and $4 becomes a lot smaller. But mostly, it would just delay getting Tournaments. I'd probably actually like that, because it'd be a lot less swingy (no early tournaments = harder to match them up), but it'd be a mediocre $5 most of the time, I suspect. And at $6, it's definitely too weak. Adventurer at $5 would be pretty alright. Like, about Harvest level normally, but with trashing easily going up to +$5 or more, which is great. At $4, it would be very underpriced. I do think Adventurer should cost $5, but then again so do most people (or given a buff).

And I'm glad you didn't mention Scout. Most people think that should cost like $7, and they'd be quite right.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2013, 08:48:44 pm »
+10

Ok, let's see if I can piss off everybody at once. :)

I'm stunned by the poll results. Chapel is a no-brainer at $2 and it would still be a great card at $3. Don't try to assess its objective cost or weep for your lost Chapel/Witch openings. Just compare Chapel to the reasonably-priced $3 cards. In Qvist's 2013 list, the median $3 card is Storeroom. Great! I promise never to buy Storeroom again. In exchange, whenever it shows up in the kingdom, I'm allowed to buy a $3 Chapel instead, ok?

As to Donald's opinion on the matter, well... Donald is wrong, or at least he's missing the point. A $2 Chapel only makes the game more interesting because it balances out another questionable design decision: all the crap in your starting deck. If you want to make the game more interesting (i.e. faster and with a better chance for engines), just start with less crap. An underpriced Chapel gets you to the same place, but with a whole lot more shuffle luck.

Donald's general claim is wrong too. Most of the mis-priced cards are at least $1 off. I'd certainly still buy a $5 Tournament and pass on a $5 Adventurer. Plenty of cards could be made more reasonable by changing the price. The game would be better for it, too. The best kingdoms have a variety of playable cards and a range of reasonable strategies. The worst ones have a single dominating card and a bunch of overpriced/underpowered crap you just ignore.

Lots of games publish errata, revised editions, banned card lists, and alternative start/win conditions. Even Chess is a revised version of Shatranj. Dominion could benefit from a little revision too.

It's clear you've thought things through, but I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of points.

Firstly, the starting deck. In a deckbuilder, your starting deck HAS to be mostly crap, or things stop making sense. Well, there's ways around it, but certainly in Dominion's case, you'd need radical changes to make it not the case. The reason for this is: The cards in your starting deck form a baseline - you're going to be improving your deck every turn for the rest of the game, or otherwise scoring points. And if you're goal is to improve your deck, you're going to be buying cards that are on average better than your starting cards, at worst. And that means, you won't want to buy cards that are only as good as your starting cards, or worse. Which means, every card available to buy should be at least better than the starting cards. If you improve the starting cards, suddenly you need to upscale everything else, and then you end up in more or less the same position you started in, or you can just leave it as is and end up with much faster, much swingier games.

Now, there are exceptions to just about every step of reasoning above. You can do things like having a very varied staring deck, of 10 different cards, each serving very different functions. Then you might buy cards worse than some of the starting ones to direct your deck (this is not dissimilar to Eminent Domain, but that has different mechanics and different gaining rules). And the obvious big exception that you were probably screaming at your monitor (well, perhaps not quite) is attacks, especially cursers, where your deck can quickly end up worse than it was at the start due to being flooded with bad cards. But those are a rare case (that is, rare it slows you down that much) and even then, you can still buy more of your basic cards.

What you say about Chapel isn't really the case. The main reason Chapel costs $2 is so you can get it if you realise you need it, such as beginners in those chapel flood games. And it's not an automatic buy, and loses you some tempo early if you do go for it. Like most cards, in the right place it's a big game shifter, it just so happens to cost $2. The real question I think is, which is worse, 5/2 openings with Chapel on the 2 against 4/3 openings with chapel, or 5/2 with chapel unavailable because it costs 3 against 4/3 openings with chapel. I can't answer that, I would need to test it it a lot, but Donald already did and says 2 is the best cost, so I'll defer to his wide experience.

As for what you say about other cards, I think very few can really be properly called mispriced. Tournament at $5 would be... a lot weaker. It would be a poor $5, except when you can get a Prize out of it, which is generally late game, when the distinction between $5 and $4 becomes a lot smaller. But mostly, it would just delay getting Tournaments. I'd probably actually like that, because it'd be a lot less swingy (no early tournaments = harder to match them up), but it'd be a mediocre $5 most of the time, I suspect. And at $6, it's definitely too weak. Adventurer at $5 would be pretty alright. Like, about Harvest level normally, but with trashing easily going up to +$5 or more, which is great. At $4, it would be very underpriced. I do think Adventurer should cost $5, but then again so do most people (or given a buff).

And I'm glad you didn't mention Scout. Most people think that should cost like $7, and they'd be quite right.

I, for one, would buy Scout no less frequently for costing $7.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2013, 08:49:04 pm »
+7

Ok, let's see if I can piss off everybody at once. :)

I'm stunned by the poll results. Chapel is a no-brainer at $2 and it would still be a great card at $3. Don't try to assess its objective cost or weep for your lost Chapel/Witch openings. Just compare Chapel to the reasonably-priced $3 cards. In Qvist's 2013 list, the median $3 card is Storeroom. Great! I promise never to buy Storeroom again. In exchange, whenever it shows up in the kingdom, I'm allowed to buy a $3 Chapel instead, ok?

As to Donald's opinion on the matter, well... Donald is wrong, or at least he's missing the point. A $2 Chapel only makes the game more interesting because it balances out another questionable design decision: all the crap in your starting deck. If you want to make the game more interesting (i.e. faster and with a better chance for engines), just start with less crap. An underpriced Chapel gets you to the same place, but with a whole lot more shuffle luck.

Donald's general claim is wrong too. Most of the mis-priced cards are at least $1 off. I'd certainly still buy a $5 Tournament and pass on a $5 Adventurer. Plenty of cards could be made more reasonable by changing the price. The game would be better for it, too. The best kingdoms have a variety of playable cards and a range of reasonable strategies. The worst ones have a single dominating card and a bunch of overpriced/underpowered crap you just ignore.

Lots of games publish errata, revised editions, banned card lists, and alternative start/win conditions. Even Chess is a revised version of Shatranj. Dominion could benefit from a little revision too.

It's clear you've thought things through, but I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of points.

Firstly, the starting deck. In a deckbuilder, your starting deck HAS to be mostly crap, or things stop making sense. Well, there's ways around it, but certainly in Dominion's case, you'd need radical changes to make it not the case. The reason for this is: The cards in your starting deck form a baseline - you're going to be improving your deck every turn for the rest of the game, or otherwise scoring points. And if you're goal is to improve your deck, you're going to be buying cards that are on average better than your starting cards, at worst. And that means, you won't want to buy cards that are only as good as your starting cards, or worse. Which means, every card available to buy should be at least better than the starting cards. If you improve the starting cards, suddenly you need to upscale everything else, and then you end up in more or less the same position you started in, or you can just leave it as is and end up with much faster, much swingier games.

Now, there are exceptions to just about every step of reasoning above. You can do things like having a very varied staring deck, of 10 different cards, each serving very different functions. Then you might buy cards worse than some of the starting ones to direct your deck (this is not dissimilar to Eminent Domain, but that has different mechanics and different gaining rules). And the obvious big exception that you were probably screaming at your monitor (well, perhaps not quite) is attacks, especially cursers, where your deck can quickly end up worse than it was at the start due to being flooded with bad cards. But those are a rare case (that is, rare it slows you down that much) and even then, you can still buy more of your basic cards.

What you say about Chapel isn't really the case. The main reason Chapel costs $2 is so you can get it if you realise you need it, such as beginners in those chapel flood games. And it's not an automatic buy, and loses you some tempo early if you do go for it. Like most cards, in the right place it's a big game shifter, it just so happens to cost $2. The real question I think is, which is worse, 5/2 openings with Chapel on the 2 against 4/3 openings with chapel, or 5/2 with chapel unavailable because it costs 3 against 4/3 openings with chapel. I can't answer that, I would need to test it it a lot, but Donald already did and says 2 is the best cost, so I'll defer to his wide experience.

As for what you say about other cards, I think very few can really be properly called mispriced. Tournament at $5 would be... a lot weaker. It would be a poor $5, except when you can get a Prize out of it, which is generally late game, when the distinction between $5 and $4 becomes a lot smaller. But mostly, it would just delay getting Tournaments. I'd probably actually like that, because it'd be a lot less swingy (no early tournaments = harder to match them up), but it'd be a mediocre $5 most of the time, I suspect. And at $6, it's definitely too weak. Adventurer at $5 would be pretty alright. Like, about Harvest level normally, but with trashing easily going up to +$5 or more, which is great. At $4, it would be very underpriced. I do think Adventurer should cost $5, but then again so do most people (or given a buff).

And I'm glad you didn't mention Scout. Most people think that should cost like $7, and they'd be quite right.

Long post with reasonable thoughts I agree with. Lots of efforts went it to writing this. - Still, I don't give a +1.
Scout joke at the end ... +1

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2013, 08:50:27 pm »
+10

"Hmm... not sure if people will agree with me.

I'll just throw in a scout joke. Now they either like the whole post or hate scout jokes!"
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2013, 08:51:37 pm »
+3

If you think that chapel should be priced at $3 or more, you must be thinking about it the wrong way.  The price is not a direct reflection of the goodness of the cards, it's a restriction on when you can buy it, and how many you're able to buy.  Chapel is priced at $2 because
a) Everyone can buy it
b) It's not broken if you can buy a lot.
Maybe I'd rather be able to buy chapel than storeroom, and chapel is a more useful card than storeroom.  That does not mean chapel should cost more than storeroom.

Basically: how would pricing chapel at $3 improve the gameplay?
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2013, 10:36:17 pm »
+5

Chapel at $2 runs into the "Chapel problem", which is ridiculousness when someone opens 5/2 with some power $5 on the board.

Chapel at $3 runs into the "Ambassador problem", which is ridiculousness when someone opens 5/2 with Ambassador on the board.

Either way, you have problems, and I don't know which is preferrable. When both players open the same, well, it doesn't really matter much. You're buying it anyway, probably.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2013, 10:40:39 pm »
+3

What you say about Chapel isn't really the case. The main reason Chapel costs $2 is so you can get it if you realise you need it, such as beginners in those chapel flood games. And it's not an automatic buy, and loses you some tempo early if you do go for it. Like most cards, in the right place it's a big game shifter, it just so happens to cost $2. The real question I think is, which is worse, 5/2 openings with Chapel on the 2 against 4/3 openings with chapel, or 5/2 with chapel unavailable because it costs 3 against 4/3 openings with chapel. I can't answer that, I would need to test it it a lot, but Donald already did and says 2 is the best cost, so I'll defer to his wide experience.

It's pretty automatic. Iso players bought it in 78% of the games it was available, making it a little more popular than Governor and a little less popular than Gold. For top players, that number is closer to 90%.

Basically: how would pricing chapel at $3 improve the gameplay?

Chapel at $2 makes 2/5 splits devastating. In something like 25% of games, one player has a 5/2 split and the other has 4/3. When Chapel's on the board, those aren't usually very fun games to play.

Chapel at $3 wouldn't be nearly as objectionable, and that's what I voted it, but Chapel at $4 warrants consideration too. Even Chapel/Silver is about as strong as Jack/Silver, and $4 would be certainly enough that it would no longer be an automatic first-round buy.

The problem with Chapel being a correct first-round buy is all the shuffle luck it adds. That luck comes at the start of the game, when luck matters most. Drawing [Chapel + EEEC] on T3 instead of [Chapel + CCCC] on T5 is a way bigger deal than the Minion split or whether you hit your first King's Court on T7 or T8.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 10:43:00 pm by ragingduckd »
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2013, 10:57:21 pm »
+8

Ok, let's see if I can piss off everybody at once. :)

I'm stunned by the poll results. Chapel is a no-brainer at $2 and it would still be a great card at $3. Don't try to assess its objective cost or weep for your lost Chapel/Witch openings. Just compare Chapel to the reasonably-priced $3 cards. In Qvist's 2013 list, the median $3 card is Storeroom. Great! I promise never to buy Storeroom again. In exchange, whenever it shows up in the kingdom, I'm allowed to buy a $3 Chapel instead, ok?
I'm stunned that you're stunned. It's really *not* about how strong the card is. Indeed, lots of 5-costs are usually better than gold, silver is usually better than many-a-4-cost, Jack usually does more for you than counting house, etc. Cards aren't cost where they are because of power level directly. A card costs X because that makes the game best, and it makes the game best because of it costing X, not because it's better than cards costing less than X and worse than cards costing more than X. Now, power level is a very big factor here, but indirectly. The most pressing thing in the cost is when decks can reasonably expect to be able to buy the card. Obviously, to make the game interesting, better cards *tend* to need to cost more than worse ones, but this is a generalization, and not a hard-and-fast rule. Some cards, it matters how easy it is to amass large numbers of them. Sometimes, it's ow quickly you can get to them, or to a couple copies. Some cards are better costing more, a la remodel and border village, where the price can be an asset. With Chapel, you are almost certainly ever going to buy only one, and almost certainly just right at the beginning of the game. So making it cost 5 or more will be a big difference, because it takes time to get. But 2,3, or 4, you are going to be getting it on t1 or t2, if you get it, whether it costs 2 or 3 or 4. It actually doesn't really matter for the card itself, what matters is what you can get it with. And the issue here is 3/4 vs 5/2. At 3-4, a 5/2 player has to waste his 5 on it, and... well, not only would this forego a potentially powerful 5, but opening with the likely chapel/- is actually pretty unappetizing. This is pretty lopsided. If it's 2, then if there is a very nice 5 on the board for it AND there isn't something real nice on 4/3 open, then it can be big advantage for 5/2. It's not totally clear, but I think it's a better balance for 2-cost. Regardless, I am actually pretty dumbfounded that you think it should cost 3. This is the LEAST logical cost for it. At 3, the 4/3 player gets to get a 4 with it if he wants, putting Mr. 5/2 even further behind. So 4 is just a much better cost than 3. Also, in terms of power it doesn't make sense - Chapel would certainly be one of the best 4-costers.....

Quote
As to Donald's opinion on the matter, well... Donald is wrong, or at least he's missing the point. A $2 Chapel only makes the game more interesting because it balances out another questionable design decision: all the crap in your starting deck. If you want to make the game more interesting (i.e. faster and with a better chance for engines), just start with less crap. An underpriced Chapel gets you to the same place, but with a whole lot more shuffle luck.

Donald's general claim is wrong too. Most of the mis-priced cards are at least $1 off. I'd certainly still buy a $5 Tournament and pass on a $5 Adventurer. Plenty of cards could be made more reasonable by changing the price. The game would be better for it, too. The best kingdoms have a variety of playable cards and a range of reasonable strategies. The worst ones have a single dominating card and a bunch of overpriced/underpowered crap you just ignore.
Really? You've gone through lots of playtesting on these alternative versions, have you? The weak starting deck is necessary, because it gives you scope to make meaningful decisions over the long term, to plot out a course. Indeed, if anything, they should be *weaker*, not stronger. But they are probably good where they are now. If you can actually just have strong things up front, I think it would actually make *more* shuffle luck problems, not less, as well as exacerbate first turn advantage.
Tournament at $5 would not be a very good card in 2 player. Playable, sure, sorta similar to treasury. But this makes tournament a lot weaker, and not just because it is harder to get them or lots of them. At 5, it competes with lots of the cards which support it, making it pretty hard for you to get your tournaments AND stuff to help you connect therm. Sure, you can get lucky, but it won't happen all that much. And without draw help, it gets blocked a little more often than it connects even, and I am not sure it is even better than peddler. well, sometimes yes, but often I think not. And this would put it below all those peddler-with-a-bonuses, quite weak. And with more players it would just be terrible. You have to remember that this game was designed for 2 through 4 players, not just 1 vs 1s.
Adventurer at 5 might be okay. I in fact doubt it would be great, but it would certainly be reasonably playable decently often, a real option for BM decks. Probably this is one of the few places where I would say it would be better costed elsewhere, but you know, even this 5-6 isn't really a miscosting, just a potential difference.

Actually the only other cards I would look at changing price on, I think, are Rebuild to 6 and Ambassador to 4. Everything else almost has to be where it is (well, Scout, but man, they can't all be explorer). And maybe you can argue things shouldn't have been printed at all, and actually that's really where I would go with both scout and Rebuild, but it's not so bad anyway, and Donald has LOADS more playtesting experience here with other versions of stuff than I do, so I defer. Ambassador to 4 I think would be interesting for sure, as it takes a lot of the brutalest bite out, but on the other hand, it might just be too weak for multiplayer anyway.

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Lots of games publish errata, revised editions, banned card lists, and alternative start/win conditions. Even Chess is a revised version of Shatranj. Dominion could benefit from a little revision too.
Well, banned cards, errata, revisions, fine, though it's obviously just much much better to not have to do this, and I don't really think there is a need.
Calling chess a revised version of Shatranj is bogus though. It's not like there were a well codified set of rules in Shatranj and then they were like 'huh, bishops should move further and not be able to jump' at a big conference meeting, and thus decreed it. No, people played with slightly different versions from place to place, and it naturally just sort of changed over time, and then eventually it was codified with the laws it has today. This is similar to the process of many card games (e.g. bridge, poker, various others) as well as sports. I mean, you wouldn't say that American Football is a revised version of Association Football (soccer). Or of Rugby even. And all these things are qualitatively different from Dominion as they developed over time, with slightly differing conditions, and this was a long slow process undertaken generally locally by players, whereas Dominion was something which was invented and polished. Now, Basketball fits more into that mold, and there are changes there as well, so it's not totally unreasonable to say you could have changes here. But it's undesirable for a card game like this to make cards which do things other than what they say as printed.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2013, 11:06:27 pm »
+2

What you say about Chapel isn't really the case. The main reason Chapel costs $2 is so you can get it if you realise you need it, such as beginners in those chapel flood games. And it's not an automatic buy, and loses you some tempo early if you do go for it. Like most cards, in the right place it's a big game shifter, it just so happens to cost $2. The real question I think is, which is worse, 5/2 openings with Chapel on the 2 against 4/3 openings with chapel, or 5/2 with chapel unavailable because it costs 3 against 4/3 openings with chapel. I can't answer that, I would need to test it it a lot, but Donald already did and says 2 is the best cost, so I'll defer to his wide experience.

It's pretty automatic. Iso players bought it in 78% of the games it was available, making it a little more popular than Governor and a little less popular than Gold. For top players, that number is closer to 90%.
Okay, it's close to an auto-buy on 2. It would be pretty close on 3 as well. Also, because people do it doesn't mean it's good. Because it's good doesn't mean it's broken. And lots of the iso data is different from how things evolved out - those games were played with all kinds of different card pools. But okay, it is definitely strong, no argument here. Making it 3 doesn't help THAT though...

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Basically: how would pricing chapel at $3 improve the gameplay?

Chapel at $2 makes 2/5 splits devastating. In something like 25% of games, one player has a 5/2 split and the other has 4/3. When Chapel's on the board, those aren't usually very fun games to play.
This number is WAY off. There's a 1 in 6 chance for a player to get 2/5 (lumping 2/5 together with 5/2), and thus a 5 in 36 chance, under 14%. Furthermore, you need a good 5 to pair it with AND a lack of a strong 4/3 option. Then you have to consider that for some of those cases, just opening the 5 is pretty devastating anyway. Again, this is indeed the biggest problem with $2 chapel, but making it more expensive *shifts* the problem rather than eliminating it.

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Chapel at $3 wouldn't be nearly as objectionable, and that's what I voted it, but Chapel at $4 warrants consideration too. Even Chapel/Silver is about as strong as Jack/Silver, and $4 would be certainly enough that it would no longer be an automatic first-round buy.
Really? You don't think that $4 chapel wouldn't be a near-automatic opener? Because it would. It really would.

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The problem with Chapel being a correct first-round buy is all the shuffle luck it adds. That luck comes at the start of the game, when luck matters most. Drawing [Chapel + EEEC] on T3 instead of [Chapel + CCCC] on T5 is a way bigger deal than the Minion split or whether you hit your first King's Court on T7 or T8.
Well, it does add shuffle luck, but so does, I dunno, militia. Yeah, those extreme splits are a big deal, but this is part of the calculated risk of the game. If you want a game without this kind of luck, this isn't the right one. Curse splits are big deals, and KC turn 7 or 8 may not be so big, but it can often be something like 4, 5, 6 turns different. Or tournaments hitting much better/worse. There are all kinds of other luck effects here.

ragingduckd

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2013, 05:28:02 am »
+3

In real-life discussion and debate, I often employ the simple tactic of interrupting a speaker and asking "Do you really believe that?" or "Aside from debunking my argument, what are you actually trying to say?"

Surprisingly often, these simple questions will actually carry the day (really! try it!). When they don't, they at least rescue the argument from point-scoring and minutia and bring us back to substantive discussion.

Online, this tactic is not nearly so effective. Anyone can spout off 1349 words (yup) of quibbles, irrelevancies, and ad hominim attacks without interruption. When this happens, it leaves me with the uncomfortable choice of either challenging the argument point by point (and thereby creating as ponderous and unreadable a tome as what I'm responding to) or letting those points pass unchallenged.

So for the sake of constructive discourse, let me concede that Tournament would be a weak $5 card, that Shatranj and Chess have nothing to do with Dominion, and that Donald X. Vaccarino is a god among men, and simply ask (because I honestly can't tell):

In 300 words or less, WW, what are you actually saying that Chapel should cost?
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2013, 05:32:43 am »
0

I voted $2 but thinking about it more $0 might be better.
You only buy it T1 or T2, and making is cost less means it is worse with trash for benefit.
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DStu

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2013, 06:14:04 am »
+1

In 300 words or less, WW, what are you actually saying that Chapel should cost?
I can give it you in 30:
Chapel at more than $2 would make the game feel fairer because "a more powerful card has to cost more" (*), but it would make the game worse because (*) is wrong.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2013, 06:44:06 am »
+6

Quote
Chapel at $2 makes 2/5 splits devastating. In something like 25% of games, one player has a 5/2 split and the other has 4/3. When Chapel's on the board, those aren't usually very fun games to play.

This number is WAY off. There's a 1 in 6 chance for a player to get 2/5 (lumping 2/5 together with 5/2), and thus a 5 in 36 chance, under 14%.
It's actually twice as much as that, because you've got two different ways you can pair a 2/5 split with a 4/3 split; I can have one and you can have the other, or you can have the other and I can have the one. That makes 10/36 which is a little more than 25%.

Put another way, in (1/6)^2 = 1/36 of games, both have 2/5, and in (5/6)^2 = 25/36, both have 4/3. The remaining 10/36 must be one of each.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2013, 08:20:14 am »
+4

In real-life discussion and debate, I often employ the simple tactic of interrupting a speaker and asking "Do you really believe that?" or "Aside from debunking my argument, what are you actually trying to say?"

Surprisingly often, these simple questions will actually carry the day (really! try it!). When they don't, they at least rescue the argument from point-scoring and minutia and bring us back to substantive discussion.

Online, this tactic is not nearly so effective. Anyone can spout off 1349 words (yup) of quibbles, irrelevancies, and ad hominim attacks without interruption. When this happens, it leaves me with the uncomfortable choice of either challenging the argument point by point (and thereby creating as ponderous and unreadable a tome as what I'm responding to) or letting those points pass unchallenged.
All I'm going to say is that we're on equal ground here.

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So for the sake of constructive discourse, let me concede that Tournament would be a weak $5 card, that Shatranj and Chess have nothing to do with Dominion, and that Donald X. Vaccarino is a god among men, and simply ask (because I honestly can't tell):
Okay, but this is actually not constructive either, because it implies that I am being totally ridiculous and claiming things that I am not (I surely believe the first of the three things here and surely don't believe the second and third).
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In 300 words or less, WW, what are you actually saying that Chapel should cost?
"Chapel would have some problems no matter what it costs. It is best (for the game) at $2, followed by $4, and worst at $3. However, $2-$4 doesn't really change all that much, and it would probably actually be fine at any of those costs. $2 has the problem of helping a 2/5 split, the others have the problem of hurting it. Having not actually tested Chapel at other costs, this is shooting a bit from the hip, but I do actually believe it all.
Costs don't convey power directly, but govern when you can get cards. Since chapel wants to be a t1-t2 card, and you only want to get one, $2-$4 make a difference almost exclusively for what you are allowed to pair it with. So the question becomes whether it's more imbalanced to force a 5/2 player to buy it alone, or for the same player to be able to pair it with a 5-cost. Again, without testing, I’m not sure of the answer. But 4 is better than 3 rather clearly, because at 3 the 4/3 player can open chapel/4-cost vs the 5/2 player’s chapel/-, whereas at 4 the 4/3 player can only get chapel/3-cost. You can really make an argument for chapel costing 4, but again, I defer to people who have tested it this way."

Edit: oh, and same to you. Succinctly, why should it cost $3?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 08:35:29 am by WanderingWinder »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2013, 09:10:19 am »
0

I picked $3 because opening double Chapel isn't that hot, and the $5/$2 chapel openings dominated the rankings IIRC.

I didn't think about it that hard.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2013, 09:26:16 am »
+1

I personally feel Chapel should cost $4, simply because Chapel/- vs. Chapel/$3 seems more fair than Chapel/$5 vs. Chapel/$4. I haven't playtested this at all, but too much of the time it feels like Chapel/$5 vs. Chapel/$4 is as close to an auto-win as you can get in turns 1 and 2, and those games just aren't very fun to play.

I think ragingduckd's suggestion of better starting hands is a bit drastic, but not as far off the mark as others are making it out to be. But, there are other, less drastic measures you could use to ensure more equality without changing the cost of Chapel. One is to ensure same starting hands, which has already been used quite a bit on Isotropic, especially in tournaments.

A slightly more radical change would be to allow players to choose their starting hand, in secret, before the game started. This would add (some) skill to the starting split, though I'm guessing that many times it would be obvious. If you wanted to slightly reduce first player advantage, you could even let the first player decide first and take their opening buy, and then let the second player decide their split (followed by third player, etc.). This probably wouldn't make a huge difference in first player advantage, but would make things like Witch/Moat opening decisions on a 4 player board much more interesting.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2013, 11:05:42 am »
+1

Online, this tactic is not nearly so effective. Anyone can spout off 1349 words (yup) of quibbles, irrelevancies, and ad hominim attacks without interruption. When this happens, it leaves me with the uncomfortable choice of either challenging the argument point by point (and thereby creating as ponderous and unreadable a tome as what I'm responding to) or letting those points pass unchallenged.

Didn't you know WW stands for WanderingWallOfText?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2013, 11:17:13 am »
+1

One early lesson that many of us learned opening Chapel is that you need to think carefully about which card you pair it with, and the reason is because you are going to be quickly trashing your Coppers and need some foundation to rebuild from.  Chapel/- would hurt a lot more than X/- openings usually do.  It would be nearly as dangerous as opening Mint.  I think that this disadvantage would actually be worse than the current advantage.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2013, 11:49:43 am »
0

If you wanted to slightly reduce first player advantage, you could even let the first player decide first and take their opening buy, and then let the second player decide their split (followed by third player, etc.). This probably wouldn't make a huge difference in first player advantage, but would make things like Witch/Moat opening decisions on a 4 player board much more interesting.
Edge case: Noble Brigand
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ragingduckd

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2013, 12:13:11 pm »
+1

Thanks, WW. That's clearer and a whole lot easier to reply to. I'm happy to put the rest behind us if you are.

Edit: oh, and same to you. Succinctly, why should it cost $3?

Remake, Steward, and Ambassador seem more consistent with Chapel at $3 than at $4, but your argument about opening splits is compelling. I'd also like for Chapel to be less obligatory on T1/T2, so that's another argument for $4. Really though, it's the 2/5 splits with Chapel that I find most objectionable, so any number bigger than 2 is good by me.

Chapel at more than $2 would make the game feel fairer because "a more powerful card has to cost more" (*), but it would make the game worse because (*) is wrong.

It's no tautology, but it is a sensible principle. Anticipating just how cards will be used can let you ignore it, but that's not easy. Did Donald anticipate that BM would dominate the actions in Base? I'm skeptical, but I don't know what he's said about it.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2013, 12:21:32 pm »
+1

If you want to make Chapel less obligatory an opener, which is a reasonable desire, then I think you need to change what Chapel does and not just its cost.  Mass trashing is best at the start where you are likely to have big clumps of junk cards to clear.  If you want Chapel to come later, you'd likely want it to cost $5 or more and provide something more than just heavy trashing in case you can't gather your junk together.  Count and Forge are examples of such cards.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2013, 12:26:42 pm »
0

As for base, Donald has stated that the four pillars are Chapel, Gardens, Witch, and Thief.  Aside from perhaps Witch, each one helps combat big money.  Thief most explicitly (and effectively, in four player games.)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2013, 12:58:39 pm »
0

Thanks, WW. That's clearer and a whole lot easier to reply to. I'm happy to put the rest behind us if you are.

Edit: oh, and same to you. Succinctly, why should it cost $3?

Remake, Steward, and Ambassador seem more consistent with Chapel at $3 than at $4, but your argument about opening splits is compelling. I'd also like for Chapel to be less obligatory on T1/T2, so that's another argument for $4. Really though, it's the 2/5 splits with Chapel that I find most objectionable, so any number bigger than 2 is good by me.

Chapel at more than $2 would make the game feel fairer because "a more powerful card has to cost more" (*), but it would make the game worse because (*) is wrong.

It's no tautology, but it is a sensible principle. Anticipating just how cards will be used can let you ignore it, but that's not easy. Did Donald anticipate that BM would dominate the actions in Base? I'm skeptical, but I don't know what he's said about it.
Again, I would say that it's generally correct *because* for most cards it limits how many of them you can get and how quickly. With chapel, getting multiples is really not much of an issue, which basically makes the biggest factor what you can get it with early on, and that is what goes to looking for balance. I think the case for $4 is very strong... *but* I defer to Donald, not so much because I think he's inherently better than you or me or whoever else at us, but because I know he spent a lot of time playtesting lots of different versions.

I stand by my previous statement that, until hitting 5, it there isn't going to be one as much better than the others. Also, as for your very first point in the thread, nothing here has really upset me at all. We disagreed, I think you're wrong on this, but it's not a matter of insult or anger. So we disagree - we can discuss it. It's a good thing. (Does this make me Martha Stewart?)

Edit: Oh, as for those other cads, you much more frequently want all of them. And at 3, I would like Amb>Steward>Chapel>Remake, at 4 I would go Amb>Chapel>Remake>Steward (hmmm, maaaaybe chapel>amb here), at 2 it's the same as at 3. At differing costs, it's amb>steward>chapel>remake, though obviously I would take chapel with the 5/2 split on *some* boards.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 01:01:23 pm by WanderingWinder »
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blueblimp

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2013, 03:54:23 pm »
0

I would say allowing both 5/2 and 3/4 starts is the more questionable design decision.  There's just little necessity for it.  When you set up your starting deck it takes more work to randomize between 5/2 and 3/4 than it does to stack it for 3/4.  And while the existence of 5/2 mirrors and 5/2 versus 3/4 increases the total number of possibilities out there for Dominion, there's a lot of total possibilities out there for Dominion already, so you don't really need that variance to help you get there. 

Really, it's a less defensible design decision than Saboteur, even less defensible a design decision than Treasure Map, imo.
This makes a lot of sense. 5/2 openings are often less interesting to play because the $2 doesn't give you many options, and $5 skips the pre-$5 phase of the game. So even ignoring balance, there's a case for getting rid of them.

As far as balance goes, there's still a lot of luck on T3/T4 about how many $5's you can buy. Though this becomes less important over time as new expansions make openings more complex.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2013, 11:55:32 pm »
+7

I would say allowing both 5/2 and 3/4 starts is the more questionable design decision.  There's just little necessity for it.

Indeed, all of this discussion about Chapel's cost, Ambassador's cost, and the like, boils down to one question.  The First Question--the oldest question in Dominion, hidden in plain sight.  Why is the opening split allowed to be different for different players?

This is so obviously a poor design decision from the standpoint of a competitive player, but Dominion was not designed with the competitive player in mind.  The reasons for this oversight do not arise from competitive play, but from more basic design rules:

(1) Without Estates in the starting deck, there are no real choices in the early game.  OK, you have $5 and... $5.  Trashing becomes less important.  Card costs have to be revised upward significantly, and even so you're probably buying two copies of the most powerful card available at $5.  Oh, and you're pretty much guaranteed $5 or better for every later turn, so really, cards costing less than $5 become silly.

(2) With only one Estate in the starting deck, you always open $5/$4.  This isn't quite the same problem as above, but it comes close; costs of cards still have to be a bit higher, $4 is the lowest price point, and trashing is still weak.

(3) With two or more Estates, you have the possibility of uneven splits.

ISTR Donald saying that the general consensus in early playtesting was that 4 Estates was too little cash to start with, while 2 Estates led to some of the same problems in (1) and (2).  Now, the rules could still force an even split (3/4 for everyone or whatever) but this is a mechanical problem.  Dominion is a very, very simple game, and adding a starting rule that forces a particular split makes you play two turns of Kinda-Dominion-But-I-Don't-Have-to-Really-Play-the-Cards before you get into the real turns.  While this is technically simpler for the players to carry out, it requires a special rule, which makes it mechanically much more difficult, especially for those just learning the game.  And since players who just want a fun game don't really care about these tiny balance issues, and those are the target market, unbalanced splits were left in rather than adding in special start-of-game rules.

----

Ideally, competitive Dominion uses equal splits for all players.  In this game, the costs of Chapel, Ambassador, Masquerade, and other extremely powerful openers does not matter in terms of balance.  If there were always equal splits, you'd take Chapel at $2, $3, $4, or $5 if you felt it was viable, because your opponent has the same opportunities.

Which is why competitive, ranked Dominion should have equal splits: a 1/6 chance each of 2/5 or 5/2, and a 1/3 chance each of 3/4 or 4/3.
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elahrairah13

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2013, 12:06:40 am »
0

Chapel at $2 runs into the "Chapel problem", which is ridiculousness when someone opens 5/2 with some power $5 on the board.

Chapel at $3 runs into the "Ambassador problem", which is ridiculousness when someone opens 5/2 with Ambassador on the board.

Either way, you have problems, and I don't know which is preferrable. When both players open the same, well, it doesn't really matter much. You're buying it anyway, probably.

I really liked this summary.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2013, 12:47:40 am »
+2


ISTR Donald saying that the general consensus in early playtesting was that 4 Estates was too little cash to start with, while 2 Estates led to some of the same problems in (1) and (2).  Now, the rules could still force an even split (3/4 for everyone or whatever) but this is a mechanical problem.  Dominion is a very, very simple game, and adding a starting rule that forces a particular split makes you play two turns of Kinda-Dominion-But-I-Don't-Have-to-Really-Play-the-Cards before you get into the real turns.  While this is technically simpler for the players to carry out, it requires a special rule, which makes it mechanically much more difficult, especially for those just learning the game. And since players who just want a fun game don't really care about these tiny balance issues, and those are the target market, unbalanced splits were left in rather than adding in special start-of-game rules.

I'd say it's more than that.  I really like that extra variety it gives.  And the balance doesn't bother me either.  Sometimes I start at an advantage:  neat.  Sometimes I start at a disadvantage:  all the better if I can pull it off!  The number of beers my friend or I have had often has a greater impact anyhow.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2013, 01:16:20 am »
0

Since chapel wants to be a t1-t2 card, and you only want to get one, $2-$4 make a difference almost exclusively for what you are allowed to pair it with. So the question becomes whether it's more imbalanced to force a 5/2 player to buy it alone, or for the same player to be able to pair it with a 5-cost. Again, without testing, I’m not sure of the answer.
It's probably close, but $2 has the added benefit of giving a more interesting choice when everyone is on a 4/3, since you have the option to take a $4 card with it. And I think that makes $2 a better price than $4.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2013, 02:48:09 am »
0

I feel like the best potential costs for Chapel are either $2 (everyone can start with it), or $6 (no one can start with it), but everything in between is problematic. $2 works well enough, despite its power, because at that cost it's basically a fact of life rather than something you have to maneuver around.

Still, everything less than $6 has some sort of screwy issue with assymetric starting hands. Costing $3 or $4 means a 3/4 opening can grab a Silver while a 5/2 cannot, and that Silver is really critical to a Chapel deck because it's like half your buying power (I generally think $4 would be better, to lessen the disadvantage). Costing $5 means a 5/2 opening gets it a reshuffle earlier which is huge, costing $2 means a 5/2 opening doesn't need to sacrifice anything to open with a power-$5.

But putting it at $6 would just be so strange. Certainly it's powerful enough to be worth it, but understanding that is hard for new players and having it compete with gold seems like bad design. Plus it starts stepping on Forge's toes.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2013, 06:35:09 am »
0

Chapel at $6 would be a totally different card, much less powerful, because you can't play it early when your deck has almost nothing you don't want to trash. It would also just shift the luck problems onto whether you hit $6 on turns 3/4, which is much higher variance AFAIK.

If you want to be really serious about removing luck, you could (online) give each player their own random number generator with the same seed. Then if they mirror, player 1 will always win.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 06:37:24 am by Warfreak2 »
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2013, 07:25:21 am »
0

If you want to be really serious about removing luck, you could (online) give each player their own random number generator with the same seed. Then if they mirror, player 1 will always win.

This wouldn't work in practice. Any non-mirror game (which most would be) would diverge the minute they stop mirroring. Plus, the mirror games would be the most boring thing in the world.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2013, 07:59:59 am »
+4

If you want to be really serious about removing luck, you could (online) give each player their own random number generator with the same seed. Then if they mirror, player 1 will always win.

This wouldn't work in practice. Any non-mirror game (which most would be) would diverge the minute they stop mirroring. Plus, the mirror games would be the most boring thing in the world.
Not to mention, there's weird strategic implications based on 'oh, the other guy drew this. I now know what I will draw'.

The randomness is an integral part of the design of the game. If you want to remove it entirely, you want to play a different game. It's similar to Backgammon in this way.

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2013, 08:58:24 am »
+1

My point was that it wouldn't work. At some point you have to accept that you will get different outcomes due to chance - if you want to make the opening splits the same, why not say both players get $5/$5 on turns 3 and 4 if they open silver/silver, or both players draw chapel/copper/copper/estate/estate on turn 4, or whatever. Reductio ad absurdum.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 09:00:40 am by Warfreak2 »
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2013, 10:40:11 am »
0

I know this slightly reduces the pure simplicity of the base set, but I could see some sort of caveat (like GM) making Chapel more balanced: $2*, *=card can only be purchased if an action is in play.

This kind of caveat would eliminate the hyper-power of a 5/2 curser/chapel split, and would still allow all players to get the Chapel early in the game, anytime after the first shuffle.

Do you think that would be a workable compromise in terms of balancing it's power?
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2013, 11:21:36 am »
+1

Any proposal to make Chapel harder to get doesn't "balance" its power, but weakens it. As anyone who has ever drawn their Chapel with two Silvers on turn 5 knows, the real benefit is being able to play it early when you want to trash everything in your hand. If you're only going to be trashing 2-3 cards at a time, it's just a worse Steward.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2013, 11:23:01 am »
+2

Why are people operating under the premise that Chapel is unbalanced or needs to be better balanced?  The 5/2 split with a strong $5?  I feel like that's a pretty rare occurrence if you're playing with all sets, and you're just as likely to get it as your opponent.  There are a lot of these luck swings in the game, some probably more prevalent than this one.  Doesn't seem to be an issue for me.

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2013, 11:25:37 am »
0

I know this slightly reduces the pure simplicity of the base set, but I could see some sort of caveat (like GM) making Chapel more balanced: $2*, *=card can only be purchased if an action is in play.

This kind of caveat would eliminate the hyper-power of a 5/2 curser/chapel split, and would still allow all players to get the Chapel early in the game, anytime after the first shuffle.

Do you think that would be a workable compromise in terms of balancing it's power?
perhaps something like that, but that specifically doesn't work because of necropolis, and sometimes nomad camp. you could also maybe get it via stonemason.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2013, 11:32:29 am »
+3

Ideally, competitive Dominion uses equal splits for all players.  In this game, the costs of Chapel, Ambassador, Masquerade, and other extremely powerful openers does not matter in terms of balance.  If there were always equal splits, you'd take Chapel at $2, $3, $4, or $5 if you felt it was viable, because your opponent has the same opportunities.

Which is why competitive, ranked Dominion should have equal splits: a 1/6 chance each of 2/5 or 5/2, and a 1/3 chance each of 3/4 or 4/3.
I disagree. Dominion is a game that has random elements. Making the best out of a situation you got in due to bad luck is part of Dominion skill. Ideally, competitive Dominion would consist of series sufficiently long so good and bad luck even out (a leaderboard system such as Iso's or Goko's fullfills this imo).
In a tournament setting, playing such a long series is not practical. Therefore I do see the point of using equal starting hands there, but don't necessarily agree with. It means arbitrarily removing one random element from the game. If you do that, you could as well rule that both player's deck ordering after the first shuffle (i.e after turn 2) should be the same, since missing your opening buy can be just as bad as a different opening split.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2013, 11:50:56 am »
0

In a tournament setting, playing such a long series is not practical.
Snooker might disagree...
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2013, 12:13:14 pm »
0

Edit: I'm not going to go back and edit this completely, but Watno's suggestion of distinguishing competitive Dominion from tournament competitive Dominion is an excellent one.  This post pertains to tournament Dominion.

My point was that it wouldn't work. At some point you have to accept that you will get different outcomes due to chance - if you want to make the opening splits the same, why not say both players get $5/$5 on turns 3 and 4 if they open silver/silver, or both players draw chapel/copper/copper/estate/estate on turn 4, or whatever. Reductio ad absurdum.

This is not reductio ad absurdum; this is a slippery slope argument.  The first is a logical argument, and the second is a logical fallacy.  You're making the fallacious argument that making X different means we might as well let Y be different, and so on until useless result Z.  The same (fallacious) argument could be made in discussing the cost of a card; if we change the cost of Chapel, well, some other card is too powerful in the wrong split, so we need to change that card, and so on.

The problem is that Y doesn't logically follow from X.

Dominion involves luck, but it is not a game of luck; rather, it is a game of luck management.  But there is no management of turns 1 and 2; there is only the opening split.  Having the split be random is equivalent to the first hand of a game of cribbage having no crib and no play (removing the actual skill of choosing a discard), or the first hand of a round of poker having a mandatory bet with no raises (removing the skill of bluffing), or a game of Puerto Rico requiring specific role choices for the first round (removing most of the skill of playing).

Stated another way, a game of (competitive) Dominion really only starts on what we normally call Turn 3; at that time, after two purchases, you have had the chance to manage your luck on turns 3, 4, 5, etc.  Dominion itself starts with Turn 1, however, because otherwise special rules would need to be introduced, and this would be just plain weird to non-competitive players.

Ascension completely failed to mitigate this problem.  Thunderstone partly mitigates it with a more varied deck, but fails in other ways in the early game.  Eminent Domain obviates the problem with a combination of the follow/dissent mechanic and a high-variety starting deck.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 12:25:19 pm by Kirian »
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Kirian

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2013, 12:15:23 pm »
0

Ideally, competitive Dominion would consist of series sufficiently long so good and bad luck even out (a leaderboard system such as Iso's or Goko's fullfills this imo).
In a tournament setting, playing such a long series is not practical. Therefore I do see the point of using equal starting hands there, but don't necessarily agree with.

Agreed on these points.  Long-term leaderboards mitigate the early luck element.  A series of 12-14 games of Dominion might mitigate that at the tournament level... but that becomes unwieldy rapidly.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2013, 02:28:17 pm »
0

This is not reductio ad absurdum; this is a slippery slope argument.

Quote from: Wikipedia
In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is an informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect.

No it isn't? If I proposed that playing with equal starting hands would cause people to start equalising all the other randomness, that would be a slippery slope.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2013, 02:33:59 pm »
0

This is not reductio ad absurdum; this is a slippery slope argument.

Quote from: Wikipedia
In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is an informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect.

No it isn't? If I proposed that playing with equal starting hands would cause people to start equalising all the other randomness, that would be a slippery slope.

I believe he's saying your reductio ad absurdum agrument implicity relies on the assmption of a valid slippery slope argument.  If your (implied) assumption of a slippery slope argument were true, then the rest would work.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2013, 02:34:23 pm »
0

Actually colliding or not colliding Chapel with your opening terminal is probably more important than opening Chapel/$5 or Chapel/$4. And they collide quite a lot of time, while Chapel/$5 isn't very frequent. Therefore, I don't think Chapel being $2 instead of $3 or $4 makes things too luck-based.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2013, 05:41:17 pm »
+2

Stated another way, a game of (competitive) Dominion really only starts on what we normally call Turn 3; at that time, after two purchases, you have had the chance to manage your luck on turns 3, 4, 5, etc.  Dominion itself starts with Turn 1, however, because otherwise special rules would need to be introduced, and this would be just plain weird to non-competitive players.
Because choosing your opening buys well is not part of competitive Dominion????

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2013, 06:58:18 pm »
0

Stated another way, a game of (competitive) Dominion really only starts on what we normally call Turn 3; at that time, after two purchases, you have had the chance to manage your luck on turns 3, 4, 5, etc.  Dominion itself starts with Turn 1, however, because otherwise special rules would need to be introduced, and this would be just plain weird to non-competitive players.
Because choosing your opening buys well is not part of competitive Dominion????

Choosing your opening buys is part of the game, yes, but it does not require the same mechanical functions as the rest of the game.  The first two turns of a Dominion game are as different from the other turns as the first turn in TTA is from the other turns.  In TTA, special provisions make that first turn different.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2013, 07:24:28 pm »
0

Stated another way, a game of (competitive) Dominion really only starts on what we normally call Turn 3; at that time, after two purchases, you have had the chance to manage your luck on turns 3, 4, 5, etc.  Dominion itself starts with Turn 1, however, because otherwise special rules would need to be introduced, and this would be just plain weird to non-competitive players.
Because choosing your opening buys well is not part of competitive Dominion????

Choosing your opening buys is part of the game, yes, but it does not require the same mechanical functions as the rest of the game.  The first two turns of a Dominion game are as different from the other turns as the first turn in TTA is from the other turns.  In TTA, special provisions make that first turn different.
I have never played nor read the rules of TTA, so I can't speak to that point. But I fail to see how it doesn't require the same mechanical functions as the rest of the game - it is all covered by the same rules. I mean, sure, you *can* force identical start hands, but similarly you *could* force equivalent shuffle luck, or have deck stacking, or any of a number of things. In which case, you are just changing the game. Which is not to say version A is better or worse than version B, just that it's no longer the same game.

It seems to me like your point boils down to "Equalizing starting hands improves the game, but equalizing later draws doesn't."

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2013, 08:07:28 pm »
+1

As a practical consideration, for mirror strategies you can't ensure equivalent shuffle luck if those strategies involve any interactive cards. It's really easy to ensure equivalent opening hands.
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popsofctown

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2013, 08:45:42 pm »
+4

I agree with WanderingWinder that luck is often an important part of a game's design, and adds more than it takes away.

I disagree that this pertains to 5/2 starts though.  Player 1 does not make any decisions before he finds out whether he will open 2/5, 3/4, 4/3, or 5/2.  That's a very key difference.
See, Treasure Map adds to the game because before you buy the Treasure Map, you make a decision.  Do you buy Treasure Map and take the risk?  Do you skip it and not take the risk?  Then this complexity enhances the game.  The player has to weigh the odds of Treasure Map's failure against its success before he decides whether to buy it.  After he buys it, it will either collide or whiff, and will either validate the player's intuitions or punish his foolishness.

When player 1 draws 5/2, he makes no decision before hand whatsoever.  His first decision of the game is how many of his five coppers he will play, by that point, the slot machine has already spun.  There's no decision that we enriched with the possibility of 3/4 or 5/2 that occurred beforehand.  No decision occurred before hand.

Of course, the possibility and mystery that player 2 drew 5/2 or 3/4 actually adds a little depth the player 1's turn one buy. Not enough that I would support player 2's ability to draw either one, but there is definitely a position you can take there that that is good for strategic richness.

But the question of whether player 1 draws 5/2 or 3/4 doesn't enrich any decision.  It increases the total number of possibilities in the game, which decreases the likelihood that any two games play out in a similar fashion.  It doesn't improve the individual quality of any of those games though. 

All that's left is the notion that no two games feel alike.  But that's dominion's strength.  It's brutish knockout strength.  Games feel so dissimilar in Dominion that the community doesn't even put very much time or effort into developing new kingdom randomization rules, because you actually can throw them in a fishbowl and yank cards out and it's hard to improve upon that, every game already feels different.  Well.  The ones without Governor.  And 5/2 mirrors and 5/2 versus 3/4 games have a tendency to feel a heck of a lot like eachother, so much so it's not even obviously clear they are increasing that feel of dissimilarity.  5/2 starts put a lot of fast BM strategies like Witch, Mountebank, Trading Post, and Vault over the top, decreasing their need for other cards because those 5$ cards are designed for the other 86% of games or whatever the percentage is. 

I find it incredibly hard to argue that the game is at its best when player 1 might draw 5/2 or 3/4.  I find it exponentially easier to oppose any other watering down of randomization, even up to leaving player 2's split random.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 08:47:50 pm by popsofctown »
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2013, 08:55:30 pm »
+1

I disagree that this pertains to 5/2 starts though.  Player 1 does not make any decisions before he finds out whether he will open 2/5, 3/4, 4/3, or 5/2.  That's a very key difference.
See, Treasure Map adds to the game because before you buy the Treasure Map, you make a decision.  Do you buy Treasure Map and take the risk?  Do you skip it and not take the risk?  Then this complexity enhances the game.  The player has to weigh the odds of Treasure Map's failure against its success before he decides whether to buy it.  After he buys it, it will either collide or whiff, and will either validate the player's intuitions or punish his foolishness.

This is why they always deal everyone they same starting hands in poker.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2013, 09:08:52 pm »
+1

I disagree that this pertains to 5/2 starts though.  Player 1 does not make any decisions before he finds out whether he will open 2/5, 3/4, 4/3, or 5/2.  That's a very key difference.
See, Treasure Map adds to the game because before you buy the Treasure Map, you make a decision.  Do you buy Treasure Map and take the risk?  Do you skip it and not take the risk?  Then this complexity enhances the game.  The player has to weigh the odds of Treasure Map's failure against its success before he decides whether to buy it.  After he buys it, it will either collide or whiff, and will either validate the player's intuitions or punish his foolishness.

This is why they always deal everyone they same starting hands in poker.

Apples to oranges.

The whole point of Poker is how you play with the cards you are dealt and make the most of your luck.  The whole point of Dominion is how you build your deck and make your own luck.  OK, yes, that's a gross over-simplification of two complex games.  Certainly there are elements of the former in Dominion, but there is also merit in ensuring the same starting hands.  But starting hands can sometimes be decisive, and forcing the same starting hand is an easy thing to do to mitigate this luck that players can do nothing about. 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 09:10:01 pm by eHalcyon »
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popsofctown

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2013, 09:29:21 pm »
0

I disagree that this pertains to 5/2 starts though.  Player 1 does not make any decisions before he finds out whether he will open 2/5, 3/4, 4/3, or 5/2.  That's a very key difference.
See, Treasure Map adds to the game because before you buy the Treasure Map, you make a decision.  Do you buy Treasure Map and take the risk?  Do you skip it and not take the risk?  Then this complexity enhances the game.  The player has to weigh the odds of Treasure Map's failure against its success before he decides whether to buy it.  After he buys it, it will either collide or whiff, and will either validate the player's intuitions or punish his foolishness.

This is why they always deal everyone they same starting hands in poker.
Poker needs unique starting hands so that every hand isn't very similar.  I clearly indicated why Dominion doesn't need that.


It's also hard to "appeal to authority" to poker and treat its design decisions as perfect  I don't see much basis for that.  It's the best way to get a gambling rush if you have a deck of 52 cards to work with.  If you consider how little people are willing to play it with 0$ stakes it's actually a pretty unpopular game given how often it will be lying around.

That's not to say it's not a good game or that's not a good gambling game.  You just can't easily make a head to head comparison. 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 09:35:22 pm by popsofctown »
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2013, 02:44:25 am »
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A little side note on the subject of chapels cost (4 vs 2) if chapel costs 4 then doctor is a better buy.
For example if on 5/2 I was going to open chapel I might as well open doctor, and overpay 2, almost guaranteeing that I have at least a 5/3 start.
proof left as an exercise.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2013, 06:04:06 am »
+1

I disagree that this pertains to 5/2 starts though.  Player 1 does not make any decisions before he finds out whether he will open 2/5, 3/4, 4/3, or 5/2.  That's a very key difference.
See, Treasure Map adds to the game because before you buy the Treasure Map, you make a decision.  Do you buy Treasure Map and take the risk?  Do you skip it and not take the risk?  Then this complexity enhances the game.  The player has to weigh the odds of Treasure Map's failure against its success before he decides whether to buy it.  After he buys it, it will either collide or whiff, and will either validate the player's intuitions or punish his foolishness.

This is why they always deal everyone they same starting hands in poker.
Poker is a betting game. The whole point is to judge the strength of your hand against your best guess of the strength of other players' hands. If you drew a bad opening hand, you can mitigate your bad luck by folding. Dominion has no betting mechanic of any kind.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2013, 11:33:40 am »
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This is not reductio ad absurdum; this is a slippery slope argument.

Quote from: Wikipedia
In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is an informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect.

No it isn't? If I proposed that playing with equal starting hands would cause people to start equalising all the other randomness, that would be a slippery slope.

Nah, your argument isn't a valid slippery slope at all. I don't think you can convincingly argue that setting identical starting hands leads down a clear and inevitable path to X, particularly considering that setting identical starting hands is something that has already been done and it led to precisely nothing you described.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2013, 12:05:31 pm »
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Then it would be pretty silly if I had made that sort of argument, wouldn't it?
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2013, 12:06:51 pm »
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I think pops expressed more clearly what I was trying to say succinctly.  The first two turns are inherently different.

It seems to me like your point boils down to "Equalizing starting hands improves the game, but equalizing later draws doesn't."

On some level, yes.

This is why they always deal everyone they same starting hands in poker.

That's not the comparison being made.  The correct comparison is: this is why the first hand of a poker match allows betting, bluffing, and folding, rather than simply having everyone reveal the hand dealt to them and the winner taking the opening pot.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2013, 12:34:32 pm »
+2

I totally disagree about the first two turns being different than the rest of the game. You can play actions cards during those turns, you can get on-buy effects, there's no difference to any other turn.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2013, 12:44:04 pm »
0

I totally disagree about the first two turns being different than the rest of the game. You can play actions cards during those turns, you can get on-buy effects, there's no difference to any other turn.

I think the difference is that the first two turns are predetermined. You have had no influence over your possible draws. From turn 2 onwards, cards you chose to add to your deck may now appear in your hand. You have had some influence on it, however slight and subject to luck that still is.

This is, of course, ignoring cards like NB a or Doctor where your t1 choice can influence t2.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2013, 12:51:15 pm »
+5

Just to make one point: if we're forcing the beginning of the game to be the same for whatever, we should only be talking about forcing an identical turn 1. Normally, this leads to an identical turn 2 as well, but there are player decisions which can come into effect by then.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2013, 01:37:49 pm »
+1

Just to make one point: if we're forcing the beginning of the game to be the same for whatever, we should only be talking about forcing an identical turn 1. Normally, this leads to an identical turn 2 as well, but there are player decisions which can come into effect by then.

Should the order of the next five cards be identical?  What if both players open with a $6 Doctor, and one trashes 3 Estates while the other trashes 2 Coppers and an Estate?  Similar scenarios for Nomad Camp or even Noble Brigand.

Edit:  By the way, have people ever explored opening Inn on a 5/2 split in hopes of drawing Inn turn 2 and using its sifting for a better hand?  You could potentially draw ICCEE, and then draw EC for a total of CCCE on turn 2.  Not sure when this would be a good opening, but surely there are edge cases.

Edge case:  Maybe open Inn on a Tunnel board.  Maybe you could even buy the Tunnel turn 2.  And MAYBE even trash your Hovel while doing so.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 01:43:09 pm by SirPeebles »
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2013, 01:47:10 pm »
0

Inn on 5/2 is reasonable. You're quite likely to get basically a 5/3 opening - it's likely better than opening 4/nothing, and probably better than some $5s. I don't think it's that much of an edge case, you just have to have nothing overly dominating at $5 so no Witch or Mountebank or stuff of that power level. It's not going to happen every game but it'll happen.

Identical starting hands does weird things with Doctor. If I open Doctor and we have identical card sequences, you'd now have information about what your Doctor would trash if you overpaid for it.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 01:49:13 pm by ftl »
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2013, 01:51:58 pm »
0

Just to make one point: if we're forcing the beginning of the game to be the same for whatever, we should only be talking about forcing an identical turn 1. Normally, this leads to an identical turn 2 as well, but there are player decisions which can come into effect by then.

Should the order of the next five cards be identical?  What if both players open with a $6 Doctor, and one trashes 3 Estates while the other trashes 2 Coppers and an Estate?  Similar scenarios for Nomad Camp or even Noble Brigand.

Edit:  By the way, have people ever explored opening Inn on a 5/2 split in hopes of drawing Inn turn 2 and using its sifting for a better hand?  You could potentially draw ICCEE, and then draw EC for a total of CCCE on turn 2.  Not sure when this would be a good opening, but surely there are edge cases.

Edge case:  Maybe open Inn on a Tunnel board.  Maybe you could even buy the Tunnel turn 2.  And MAYBE even trash your Hovel while doing so.

The biggest problem with allowing the next 5 cards to be identical in order is that say p1 buys a doctor, p2 is given unfair knowledge of the rest of his deck to make a more informed decision about possibly overpaying.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2013, 01:52:51 pm »
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Yes, you two are both right.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2013, 02:09:29 pm »
+1

What if you started with identical hands, but your other five cards begin in the discard rather than the draw pile?  In particular, it would usually be possible to draw your t1 purchase right away.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2013, 02:09:50 pm »
0

It seems very reasonable to do identical starting split without the ordering of the Coppers and Estates being the same.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2013, 05:09:46 pm »
+2

What if you started with identical hands, but your other five cards begin in the discard rather than the draw pile?  In particular, it would usually be possible to draw your t1 purchase right away.

*twitch*
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2013, 05:28:09 pm »
+3

Talk about having a huge difference between 5/2 and 2/5!
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cluckyb

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #78 on: June 18, 2013, 05:59:44 pm »
0

Actually colliding or not colliding Chapel with your opening terminal is probably more important than opening Chapel/$5 or Chapel/$4. And they collide quite a lot of time, while Chapel/$5 isn't very frequent. Therefore, I don't think Chapel being $2 instead of $3 or $4 makes things too luck-based.

Isn't the issue that if Chapel costs $3 and you get a $2/$5 split, you are stuck with $2/Chapel? The difference between Chapel/$4 and $2/Chapel is bigger than the difference between Chapel/$4 and Chapel/$5, especially if there aren't any other $2s on the board. So because Chapel is not the kind of card you want lots of, the $2 price is actually perfectly reasonable despite its power, just like  "If this is the first time you've played this card this game, each other player gains 5 curses" would also be properly priced at $2
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Awaclus

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #79 on: June 18, 2013, 07:19:03 pm »
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Actually colliding or not colliding Chapel with your opening terminal is probably more important than opening Chapel/$5 or Chapel/$4. And they collide quite a lot of time, while Chapel/$5 isn't very frequent. Therefore, I don't think Chapel being $2 instead of $3 or $4 makes things too luck-based.

Isn't the issue that if Chapel costs $3 and you get a $2/$5 split, you are stuck with $2/Chapel? The difference between Chapel/$4 and $2/Chapel is bigger than the difference between Chapel/$4 and Chapel/$5, especially if there aren't any other $2s on the board. So because Chapel is not the kind of card you want lots of, the $2 price is actually perfectly reasonable despite its power, just like  "If this is the first time you've played this card this game, each other player gains 5 curses" would also be properly priced at $2
Yes, that's the main issue. I was just saying that the opening is not even the most important way in which the current Chapel causes lucky draws being especially powerful or unlucky draws being especially weak.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #80 on: June 18, 2013, 07:35:57 pm »
0

I was just saying that the opening is not even the most important way in which the current Chapel causes lucky draws being especially powerful or unlucky draws being especially weak.
Super Duper Chapel: Chapel/Copper/Estate/Estate/Estate, and next turn buy a Witch. Oh Snapel: Chapel/Copper/Copper/Copper/Copper, next turn decline to buy a second Chapel.
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popsofctown

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #81 on: June 18, 2013, 07:36:52 pm »
0

Actually colliding or not colliding Chapel with your opening terminal is probably more important than opening Chapel/$5 or Chapel/$4. And they collide quite a lot of time, while Chapel/$5 isn't very frequent. Therefore, I don't think Chapel being $2 instead of $3 or $4 makes things too luck-based.

Isn't the issue that if Chapel costs $3 and you get a $2/$5 split, you are stuck with $2/Chapel? The difference between Chapel/$4 and $2/Chapel is bigger than the difference between Chapel/$4 and Chapel/$5, especially if there aren't any other $2s on the board. So because Chapel is not the kind of card you want lots of, the $2 price is actually perfectly reasonable despite its power, just like  "If this is the first time you've played this card this game, each other player gains 5 curses" would also be properly priced at $2

MM, Trading Post - Cluckattack opening against a 3/4 player.  Deliciousness.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2013, 07:42:25 pm »
0

"If this is the first time you've played this card this game, each other player gains 5 curses"

MM, Trading Post - Cluckattack opening against a 3/4 player.  Deliciousness.
Or being player three...
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2013, 09:26:56 pm »
0

Chapel
Action - $4*
Trash up to 4 cards from your hand.
----------------------
This costs $2 less if it is past your 2nd turn of the game.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 09:30:03 pm by Axxle »
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2013, 01:59:24 am »
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Church
Action - $2

Trash up to 4 cards from your hand.
----------------------
When you buy this, gain a Silver. Skip the Action and Buy phases of your next turn.
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Davio

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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2013, 02:13:26 am »
+17

Chapel - $2
Trash up to 4 cards from your hand, and stop complaining.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2013, 10:14:28 am »
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Talk about having a huge difference between 5/2 and 2/5!

But you have an identical starting hand.  So yeah, in some games we both start with $5.  In some we both start with $2.  And there is no randomness triggered before we make a decision, aside from player 1 buying a Noble Brigand.
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Re: Chapel Cost?
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2013, 11:58:13 am »
+2

Chapel - $2
Trash up to 4 cards from your hand, and stop complaining.

Confessional - $2
Trash up to 4 cards from your hand, then complain about the luck factor of strong early trashing.
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