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Author Topic: Guilds simulator results  (Read 8230 times)

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Geronimoo

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Guilds simulator results
« on: June 14, 2013, 11:07:06 am »
+20

Soothsayer: Soothsayer BM loses 39 - 57 to Witch BM so pretty close in power level
Masterpiece: Smithy + Masterpiece beats Smithy BM significantly (62 - 29). You want to buy Masterpiece at 5 or 7. Gold is still a little better at 6.
Candlestick Maker: A strange result. Adding 1 CM to plain Big Money (over Silver) wins 54 - 38 over Big Money. Adding a second (over Silver) decreases the win rate. So a little money smoothing is very strong, but you don't want to overdo it.
Advisor: this card is going to be a huge trap on some boards. Advisor BM loses 37 - 54 to plain BM. So in a deck with plenty of crap (Estates, Coppers, Curses) the card is probably worse than Silver. It will shine in dense Action decks however.
Herald: Another trap card. Besides the Village Idiot I expect a lot of Herald Idiots to emerge. If you think it can replace a Village in engine decks you're going to be very disappointed. You really need a very dense and trashed down Action deck for this to work.
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achmed_sender

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 12:31:42 pm »
0

Soothsayer vs Witch in BM isn't a fair comparison imho. Witch has terminal draw which is great for Big Money. As soon as you can draw cards dead, Witch becomes a bit weaker in comparison to Soothsayer. With sifters a la Warehouse, I'd say SS will outrace Witch.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 12:34:19 pm »
0

SS gains Golds.  That's great for BM too.  But yeah, I think that Warehouse would be better for SS, not only because of the terminal draw (which has an effect anyway -- Witch can draw Witch dead) but because Warehouse likes to find the Gold.
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eliegel34

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 02:46:23 pm »
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Have you looked at how Journeyman does yet?  It felt pretty strong the 1 time i played it BM.  I mostly called Estate and Province, but occasionally copper.  Deck tracking can increase the effectiveness of this quite a bit.  It quite strong for BM maybe similar to Embassy .
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ftl

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 03:00:35 pm »
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Journeyman in engines with no trashing or weak trashing is just so good. Name copper and watch so many coppers get discarded while you draw your actions. You have to card-count and watch reshuffles though, once I named copper when there were only one or two non-copper cards left to draw, because I'd been naming copper all turn long.
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AdamH

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 04:06:06 pm »
0

What are the rules for keeping and spending coin tokens for Candlestick Maker+BM? I've had a lot of success with keeping my coin tokens for the endgame.

What if you added an only-spend-coin-tokens-on-Provinces rule? Would that increase the win rate?
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Qvist

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2013, 07:03:24 pm »
0

May I request some things here?

How does Journeyman BM perform against Catacombs BM or Smithy BM ?
And when should you start naming Copper instead of Estate?

Can you evaluate Taxman / Fool's Gold ?

Merchant Guild BM vs. Merchant Ship BM ?

How about Envoy/Masterpiece over pure Envoy BM? I guess you should prefer Masterpiece over Gold?

Warfreak2

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2013, 07:06:45 pm »
0

Journeyman in engines with no trashing or weak trashing is just so good. Name copper and watch so many coppers get discarded while you draw your actions.
I watched my opponent play Journeyman, name Copper, and then reveal Estate, Copper, Estate, Estate, discarding Copper and putting Estate, Estate, Estate into his hand. I laughed so hard.
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AdamH

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2013, 08:21:06 pm »
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I doubt there's ever a time to name copper in BM+Journeyman.

And Qvist, what's the connection between Merchant Guild and Merchant Ship BM?
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Qvist

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2013, 08:22:13 pm »
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I doubt there's ever a time to name copper in BM+Journeyman.

And Qvist, what's the connection between Merchant Guild and Merchant Ship BM?

Just curious.

eHalcyon

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2013, 08:56:13 pm »
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I doubt there's ever a time to name copper in BM+Journeyman.

Shelters game and they've all been swindled away.  Or even Shelters game, you've already killed the Hovel.

A game where you've salvaged your Estates, or trashed them to opponent's Bishop, or passed them away to Masq.

Maybe your hand holds all your green and a Journeyman and naming Copper will let you draw just Silvers and Golds. :)
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AdamH

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2013, 08:57:37 pm »
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I believe you on the second one only.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2013, 08:58:34 pm »
+1

I believe you on the second one only.

Really?  I like the third one the most. :P
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eliegel34

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 02:45:25 am »
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I believe you on the second one only.

Really?  I like the third one the most. :P

I actually got something pretty close to this recently.  I had Journeyman, EECS and hadn't greened yet calling Copper allowed me to sift for Silver and Gold giving me a Province.
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Watno

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 05:17:37 am »
+1

another possibility is that you know there are no estates left in your draw pile, but at least 3 cards that aren't copper.

I played journeyman-bm once where I was able to trash my estates to the opponents bishop. it was insanely fast.
Edit: here's the log: archive-dominionlogs.goko.com/20130615/log.505c626fa2e6c78ad2ed5aa6.1371345154313.txt
4 colonies in 14 turns, 7 in 19.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 05:24:01 am by Watno »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2013, 02:08:15 pm »
+5

I believe you on the second one only.

Really?  I like the third one the most. :P

I actually got something pretty close to this recently.  I had Journeyman, EECS and hadn't greened yet calling Copper allowed me to sift for Silver and Gold giving me a Province.

One of the outtake Guilds: Electrical Engineer/Computer Scientist.
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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2013, 06:43:26 am »
0

Soothsayer: Soothsayer BM loses 39 - 57 to Witch BM so pretty close in power level
Masterpiece: Smithy + Masterpiece beats Smithy BM significantly (62 - 29). You want to buy Masterpiece at 5 or 7. Gold is still a little better at 6.
Candlestick Maker: A strange result. Adding 1 CM to plain Big Money (over Silver) wins 54 - 38 over Big Money. Adding a second (over Silver) decreases the win rate. So a little money smoothing is very strong, but you don't want to overdo it.
Advisor: this card is going to be a huge trap on some boards. Advisor BM loses 37 - 54 to plain BM. So in a deck with plenty of crap (Estates, Coppers, Curses) the card is probably worse than Silver. It will shine in dense Action decks however.
Herald: Another trap card. Besides the Village Idiot I expect a lot of Herald Idiots to emerge. If you think it can replace a Village in engine decks you're going to be very disappointed. You really need a very dense and trashed down Action deck for this to work.

I doubt the result on Herald. I find on average it is substantially more powerful than village, although I only play it with gainers or trashers.
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SCSN

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2013, 03:48:23 pm »
+1

Herald: Another trap card. Besides the Village Idiot I expect a lot of Herald Idiots to emerge. If you think it can replace a Village in engine decks you're going to be very disappointed. You really need a very dense and trashed down Action deck for this to work.

I doubt the result on Herald. I find on average it is substantially more powerful than village, although I only play it with gainers or trashers.

I don't doubt the results w.r.t. the point Geronimoo actually makes, namely that you can't expect Herald to just function as a Village substitute (something that similarly holds for Ironmonger), but I agree that looking at Herald as just a Village in the first place doesn't do the card at all justice. Because first of all, when the card does actually hit, it's not just a Village, but basically an activated City (minus that it forces you to play one particular card right away), and secondly, you aren't at all forced to just randomly buy the card and hope it hits some of the time, you can actually make it likely for this to happen, and you're free to ignore the card when you can't. The most obvious way is trashing. It doesn't even have to be extreme trashing, as a $4 cantrip that's an activated City even half the time is already pretty sweet. When you have the option to trash aggressively, though, the card can become absolutely bonkers, as now you can rely on it for both +Actions and +Cards. A nice example is this game I played last week, where Herald was both the only Village and the only way to increase your hand-size, and it still allowed me to pull off a Bridge mega-turn.

Some other ways that make it more likely to hit are Cartographer (also included in the game above, though not until very late and I botched its execution by discarding cards I actually wanted to keep), Apothecary, Wandering Minstrel, and, when you're drawing most of your deck, Warehouse: discard some actions and then play one of them with Herald.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2013, 10:04:52 am »
+1

Some other ways that make it more likely to hit are Cartographer (also included in the game above, though not until very late and I botched its execution by discarding cards I actually wanted to keep), Apothecary, Wandering Minstrel, and, when you're drawing most of your deck, Warehouse: discard some actions and then play one of them with Herald.
You forgot Scout!
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Sparafucile

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2013, 07:55:30 pm »
0

Interestingly enough, plaza also beats big money:

54.9% win for BigMoneyWithCard<Plaza>
40.3% win for BigMoney
4.8% there is a tie.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 08:06:57 pm by Sparafucile »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2013, 01:03:02 am »
0

Interestingly enough, plaza also beats big money:

54.9% win for BigMoneyWithCard<Plaza>
40.3% win for BigMoney
4.8% there is a tie.

Not that surprising.  BM is almost certain to have a Copper in hand to discard, and having a coin token instead of a Copper in hand can only ever help (yes yes, edge case with other cards that want to discard, and Coppersmith).
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ftl

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2013, 01:33:00 am »
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Well, for bm that is only ever so marginally better than a silver, even at the best possible time.
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Sparafucile

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Re: Guilds simulator results
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2013, 08:04:21 pm »
+1

Quote
Not that surprising.  BM is almost certain to have a Copper in hand to discard, and having a coin token instead of a Copper in hand can only ever help

Well every plaza you give up the opportunity of having a silver.  With one plaza, the benefit of smoothing outweighs the cost, but as more plazas are added, it gets worse and worse:

2 plazas:

47.3% win for BigMoneyWithCard<Plaza>
46.4% win for BigMoney

3 plazas:

34.5% win for BigMoneyWithCard<Plaza>
58.9% win for BigMoney
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