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Author Topic: Overpay cards and the best cards lists  (Read 76296 times)

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AdamH

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #100 on: June 19, 2013, 04:32:14 pm »
0

No matter what happens, some people aren't going to be happy. The fundamental problem is that the "best cards" lists aren't well defined. We never agreed on what information it's really meant to convey. If the way you rank the cards is based on how often you buy them at that price point compared to other cards at the same price point, putting Masterpiece at $3 seems pointless. If you rank cards by their overall strategic value, splitting up a card makes no sense. Then there's the issue that if you put a card on all the lists, some people are going to think about "splitting up" the value of the card, and some people are going to rank the full card on each list, which leads to even more confused rankings.

No matter what happens, EVERYBODY should be happy. Period. There's no excuse for anything else, especially the saying of anything negative at all. Including negative things about Sarge.

If someone feels strongly enough that this isn't worth it, I don't see anyone stopping them from doing their own list.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #101 on: June 19, 2013, 04:35:23 pm »
0

Then ignore it.

You're kinda taking your ball and going home.
I don't understand how this analogy works. 'taking your ball and going home' would be don't rank the overpay cards at all. But he's advocating for something (putting them at their own costs - let's make it analogous to soccer). Others are advocating for other things (putting them on their own list - let's call this footie; putting them with the most expensive cards - we'll call this rugby). You are saying that everyone is happy if we play some game that has rules from soccer, football, and rugby. But I actually think that it's closer to the opposite - nobody is happy!

And actually, I already described why this is a bad idea - in ranking bits of the card, you never rank the card itself as a whole. This is HUGE! A big part of the strength of a lot of these cards is their flexibility, which you're never taking into account. And there's other specific issues too.

Why are you choosing your piece of mind over fellow Dominion Strategy members and Dominion lovers by choosing not to ignore 16-20 extra cards.  Unfortunately, my situation doesn't allow me to "sacrifice" for you. 

Seems selfish.

Edit: post in response to robz888 comment.

What? This makes no sense - not ignoring things is generally good, not bad; it is, however, incredibly difficult to *force* someone to not ignore something; there aren't 16-20 cards in discussion; your argument seems to more or less boil down to 'you are being selfish for asking for what you want, instead of yielding to me so that I can get what I want' which isn't prima facie an argument that either side can use. I also don't see how, in this way, your positions are any different at all.

Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #102 on: June 19, 2013, 04:42:41 pm »
0

Then ignore it.

You're kinda taking your ball and going home.
I don't understand how this analogy works. 'taking your ball and going home' would be don't rank the overpay cards at all. But he's advocating for something (putting them at their own costs - let's make it analogous to soccer). Others are advocating for other things (putting them on their own list - let's call this footie; putting them with the most expensive cards - we'll call this rugby). You are saying that everyone is happy if we play some game that has rules from soccer, football, and rugby. But I actually think that it's closer to the opposite - nobody is happy!

And actually, I already described why this is a bad idea - in ranking bits of the card, you never rank the card itself as a whole. This is HUGE! A big part of the strength of a lot of these cards is their flexibility, which you're never taking into account. And there's other specific issues too.

Why are you choosing your piece of mind over fellow Dominion Strategy members and Dominion lovers by choosing not to ignore 16-20 extra cards.  Unfortunately, my situation doesn't allow me to "sacrifice" for you. 

Seems selfish.

Edit: post in response to robz888 comment.

What? This makes no sense - not ignoring things is generally good, not bad; it is, however, incredibly difficult to *force* someone to not ignore something; there aren't 16-20 cards in discussion; your argument seems to more or less boil down to 'you are being selfish for asking for what you want, instead of yielding to me so that I can get what I want' which isn't prima facie an argument that either side can use. I also don't see how, in this way, your positions are any different at all.
I don't have the luxury to ignore anything.  If the $5 Stonemason isn't included I can't add it.  Why wouldn't a $5 power be compared to other $5 powers?  That seems to be the whole point of the lists.
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jonts26

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #103 on: June 19, 2013, 04:45:21 pm »
0


I don't have the luxury to ignore anything.  If the $5 Stonemason isn't included I can't add it.  Why wouldn't a $5 power be compared to other $5 powers?  That seems to be the whole point of the lists.

The problem is there's no such card in dominion as a $5 Stonemason. There's just stonemason.

EDIT: and of course you're not wrong to want to compare a stonemason to a power $5 card. You often have to make the decision between the two when buying. But that's also true when comparing Steward to Wharf. And no one seems to be objecting to them being on separate lists.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 04:52:24 pm by jonts26 »
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #104 on: June 19, 2013, 04:50:45 pm »
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I don't have the luxury to ignore anything.  If the $5 Stonemason isn't included I can't add it.  Why wouldn't a $5 power be compared to other $5 powers?  That seems to be the whole point of the lists.

The problem is there's no such card in dominion as a $5 Stonemason. There's just stonemason.
A Stonemason that costs me $5 and give me a power that can't be bought at $2, $3 or $4.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2013, 05:03:12 pm »
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I don't have the luxury to ignore anything.  If the $5 Stonemason isn't included I can't add it.  Why wouldn't a $5 power be compared to other $5 powers?  That seems to be the whole point of the lists.

The problem is there's no such card in dominion as a $5 Stonemason. There's just stonemason.
A Stonemason that costs me $5 and give me a power that can't be bought at $2, $3 or $4.

But it didn't cost you $5, it cost you $2.  The extra power cost you $3. 

Another analogy is Black Market, which has an "on-play" overpay effect of letting you buy 1 of three cards (chosen randomly from a separate deck).  Sure, it costs $3 to buy, but its use technically costs money, so its like a $3+x card where x is paid in arrears.  If Black Markets wording was like Noble Brigands ("when you buy this or play this"), would you want to rank it at a different price point?

I also wonder if this entire discussion isn't motivated mostly by a bias with the word "overpay".  If Stonemason were worded "When you buy this, you may take -X coin, to a minimum of 0 coin.  If you do, gain two cards, each costing no more than X," would we consider Stonemason anything but a $2 card?
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #106 on: June 19, 2013, 05:12:01 pm »
0


I don't have the luxury to ignore anything.  If the $5 Stonemason isn't included I can't add it.  Why wouldn't a $5 power be compared to other $5 powers?  That seems to be the whole point of the lists.

The problem is there's no such card in dominion as a $5 Stonemason. There's just stonemason.
A Stonemason that costs me $5 and give me a power that can't be bought at $2, $3 or $4.

But it didn't cost you $5, it cost you $2.  The extra power cost you $3. 

Another analogy is Black Market, which has an "on-play" overpay effect of letting you buy 1 of three cards (chosen randomly from a separate deck).  Sure, it costs $3 to buy, but its use technically costs money, so its like a $3+x card where x is paid in arrears.  If Black Markets wording was like Noble Brigands ("when you buy this or play this"), would you want to rank it at a different price point?

I also wonder if this entire discussion isn't motivated mostly by a bias with the word "overpay".  If Stonemason were worded "When you buy this, you may take -X coin, to a minimum of 0 coin.  If you do, gain two cards, each costing no more than X," would we consider Stonemason anything but a $2 card?
Overpaying isn't a mechanic that presides over the entire game.  I can't overpay a Witch and gain extra power.  The Stonemason's overpay is on the card.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #107 on: June 19, 2013, 05:15:55 pm »
+1


I don't have the luxury to ignore anything.  If the $5 Stonemason isn't included I can't add it.  Why wouldn't a $5 power be compared to other $5 powers?  That seems to be the whole point of the lists.

The problem is there's no such card in dominion as a $5 Stonemason. There's just stonemason.
A Stonemason that costs me $5 and give me a power that can't be bought at $2, $3 or $4.

But it didn't cost you $5, it cost you $2.  The extra power cost you $3. 

Another analogy is Black Market, which has an "on-play" overpay effect of letting you buy 1 of three cards (chosen randomly from a separate deck).  Sure, it costs $3 to buy, but its use technically costs money, so its like a $3+x card where x is paid in arrears.  If Black Markets wording was like Noble Brigands ("when you buy this or play this"), would you want to rank it at a different price point?

I also wonder if this entire discussion isn't motivated mostly by a bias with the word "overpay".  If Stonemason were worded "When you buy this, you may take -X coin, to a minimum of 0 coin.  If you do, gain two cards, each costing no more than X," would we consider Stonemason anything but a $2 card?
Overpaying isn't a mechanic that presides over the entire game.  I can't overpay a Witch and gain extra power.  The Stonemason's overpay is on the card.

It's a mechanic that's specific to the card.  But so are many other mechanics that happen on particular cards.  Lots of cards have special mechanics (Island, Noble Brigands, Mandarin, Black Market, etc.).  The on-buy effect is something you take into account when you choose whether or not to buy the card.  Other cards have on-buy effects (but it doesn't cost more coin).
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #108 on: June 19, 2013, 05:20:35 pm »
0


I don't have the luxury to ignore anything.  If the $5 Stonemason isn't included I can't add it.  Why wouldn't a $5 power be compared to other $5 powers?  That seems to be the whole point of the lists.

The problem is there's no such card in dominion as a $5 Stonemason. There's just stonemason.
A Stonemason that costs me $5 and give me a power that can't be bought at $2, $3 or $4.

But it didn't cost you $5, it cost you $2.  The extra power cost you $3. 

Another analogy is Black Market, which has an "on-play" overpay effect of letting you buy 1 of three cards (chosen randomly from a separate deck).  Sure, it costs $3 to buy, but its use technically costs money, so its like a $3+x card where x is paid in arrears.  If Black Markets wording was like Noble Brigands ("when you buy this or play this"), would you want to rank it at a different price point?

I also wonder if this entire discussion isn't motivated mostly by a bias with the word "overpay".  If Stonemason were worded "When you buy this, you may take -X coin, to a minimum of 0 coin.  If you do, gain two cards, each costing no more than X," would we consider Stonemason anything but a $2 card?
Overpaying isn't a mechanic that presides over the entire game.  I can't overpay a Witch and gain extra power.  The Stonemason's overpay is on the card.

It's a mechanic that's specific to the card.  But so are many other mechanics that happen on particular cards.  Lots of cards have special mechanics (Island, Noble Brigands, Mandarin, Black Market, etc.).  The on-buy effect is something you take into account when you choose whether or not to buy the card.  Other cards have on-buy effects (but it doesn't cost more coin).
and that is why I am not arguing for them to be listed mor e than once.
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jonts26

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #109 on: June 19, 2013, 05:23:50 pm »
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and that is why I am not arguing for them to be listed mor e than once.

If you include a $2 SM, a $3 SM, a $4 SM etc...

Everyone gets what they want.  If you only want to recognize a $2 SM then you get ignore the others.  Very simple really.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 05:25:17 pm by jonts26 »
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werothegreat

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #110 on: June 19, 2013, 05:26:45 pm »
+2

I like fish.

I don't.  It tastes nasty and salty.

<-- His name is Sarge.

Fish in a tank I can do.  Once I'm settled in my own house, I'm going to get a saltwater tank and put lionfish in it.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #111 on: June 19, 2013, 05:27:12 pm »
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I think he meant the cards that have on-buy effects that don't cost money. 

Anyway, Stonemason shouldn't be on the $5 card list because it isn't a $5 card.  I can't upgrade a Scout into a Stonemason.  (He refuses to change vocations, because Scouting is cooler than building.)
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jonts26

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #112 on: June 19, 2013, 05:31:48 pm »
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Oh, my bad. I misunderstood. Ummm. Well actually I have nothing to say that hasn't been said at least once already. All these arguments are starting to repeat. I'll just see myself out.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #113 on: June 19, 2013, 05:32:16 pm »
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I think he meant the cards that have on-buy effects that don't cost money. 

Anyway, Stonemason shouldn't be on the $5 card list because it isn't a $5 card.
Yes, thank you.  That is what I meant.


  I believe Stonemason is a $2, $3, $4, $5, $6 card.  It says so in the bottom left side of the card itself.  2+.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #114 on: June 19, 2013, 05:35:13 pm »
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I think he meant the cards that have on-buy effects that don't cost money. 

Anyway, Stonemason shouldn't be on the $5 card list because it isn't a $5 card.
Yes, thank you.  That is what I meant.


  I believe Stonemason is a $2, $3, $4, $5, $6 card.  It says so in the bottom left side of the card itself.  2+.

But you're simply wrong.  At least, from what I've heard from the discussion that is not how it works.  If you pay $2+$3 you did not buy a $5 card, you bought a $2 card.  If you had played a Talisman, you would gain two of them, regardless of how much you overpaid.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but we had this discussion during the preview week.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #115 on: June 19, 2013, 05:41:40 pm »
0

Found the rulebook online:

Quote
Some cards in Dominion: Guilds can be "overpaid" for. The costs for these cards have a "+"
next to the coin symbol. A player may pay any additional amount for such a card, and then
gets an effect based on how much extra was paid. Potions (from Dominion: Alchemy) may
be used in overpaid amounts if desired, although this is not always meaningful. A player
may choose not to overpay, even if she has extra coins, but cannot choose to overpay (0); to
overpay, a player has to actually pay more than the cost. The coins used to overpay are gone
after spending them to overpay; they cannot be then used to buy something else.
Overpaying happens when a card is paid for, which is before it is gained. Players can only
overpay for a card when buying it, not when gaining it some other way. The "+" is just a
reminder; a card with "+" in the cost still has its normal cost for all purposes. For example
if a player plays Haggler (from Dominion: Hinterlands), then buys a Masterpiece,
overpaying, Haggler will still gain her a card costing less than (3), the cost of Masterpiece.
Similarly, Masterpiece could be the Bane card for Young Witch (from Dominion:
Cornucopia), since it costs (3) . Reducing the costs of cards via cards like Bridge (from
Dominion: Intrigue) or Highway (from Dominion: Hinterlands) does not interact with
overpay; for example, if you play five Bridges and have (5) total to spend, Herald would cost
(0), but if you bought one the most you could overpay for it would still be (5).

http://dominiongame.info/dominionguildsrules.pdf

Edit: Notably, your argument would also require all overpay cards go on the Potion list, because you can overpay Potions (even if it's meaningless).
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 05:48:46 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #116 on: June 19, 2013, 05:51:55 pm »
+5

The + is just there as a reminder of the card's ability, just like the "*" on the "0*" cost of Prizes, Spoils, Madman, Mercenary.

Anyway, the discussion is a little academic for now, since I think we should wait a while to get a handle on guilds cards before making a new list.

BTW, Qvist, we'll all continue to think you're awesome for doing the lists no matter how you end up classifying the overpay cards!
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #117 on: June 19, 2013, 06:04:57 pm »
+6

BTW, Qvist, we'll all continue to think you're awesome for doing the lists no matter how you end up classifying the overpay cards!

Unless he doesn't do it my way. Then he's pretty much hitler.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #118 on: June 19, 2013, 06:11:25 pm »
0

In the end.  It doesn't really matter.  A list will come out that I'll glance at for a minute or so and I'll be done with it.
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Robz888

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #119 on: June 19, 2013, 06:25:27 pm »
0

Found the rulebook online:

Quote
Some cards in Dominion: Guilds can be "overpaid" for. The costs for these cards have a "+"
next to the coin symbol. A player may pay any additional amount for such a card, and then
gets an effect based on how much extra was paid. Potions (from Dominion: Alchemy) may
be used in overpaid amounts if desired, although this is not always meaningful. A player
may choose not to overpay, even if she has extra coins, but cannot choose to overpay (0); to
overpay, a player has to actually pay more than the cost. The coins used to overpay are gone
after spending them to overpay; they cannot be then used to buy something else.
Overpaying happens when a card is paid for, which is before it is gained. Players can only
overpay for a card when buying it, not when gaining it some other way. The "+" is just a
reminder; a card with "+" in the cost still has its normal cost for all purposes. For example
if a player plays Haggler (from Dominion: Hinterlands), then buys a Masterpiece,
overpaying, Haggler will still gain her a card costing less than (3), the cost of Masterpiece.
Similarly, Masterpiece could be the Bane card for Young Witch (from Dominion:
Cornucopia), since it costs (3) . Reducing the costs of cards via cards like Bridge (from
Dominion: Intrigue) or Highway (from Dominion: Hinterlands) does not interact with
overpay; for example, if you play five Bridges and have (5) total to spend, Herald would cost
(0), but if you bought one the most you could overpay for it would still be (5).

http://dominiongame.info/dominionguildsrules.pdf

Edit: Notably, your argument would also require all overpay cards go on the Potion list, because you can overpay Potions (even if it's meaningless).

The rulebook makes it even more clear that Masterpiece belongs on the $3 list.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #120 on: June 19, 2013, 06:31:36 pm »
0

Honestly, I think it would be confusing if we rank Stonemason but multiple costs. How the hell am I supposed to know the value of a $5 Stonemason. You can get 2 $3 for that, but how often do I want two $3's? And, on that same board, I also have the choice of paying $7 for Stonemason, and sometimes even $9. Honestly, the overpay is an effect of the card, but not the cost of the card.

Anyway, the rule book makes it clear that Stonemason is a $2 card.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #121 on: June 19, 2013, 06:58:12 pm »
+1

Please keep the discussion friendly, it's only a list and not someone's personal life.

If you include a $2 SM, a $3 SM, a $4 SM etc...

Everyone gets what they want.  If you only want to recognize a $2 SM then you get ignore the others.  Very simple really.

No, it's not that simple. If I have to rank a $3 Masterpiece and a $4, $5 and $6 one in different lists, the $3 version will be on a different spot than if I only can rank it at $3 because I have to consider the other versions in the strength of the card. I won't be able to make everyone happy and I totally understand jonts26 here.

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #122 on: June 19, 2013, 07:12:33 pm »
0

I'm not surprised you understand jonts26.  From what I can tell he is with the majority. Not necessarily right but the majority.

I guess I don't understand the purpose of the lists. Are we comparing cards, cost, or value?  Is this to promote discussion or education?
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #123 on: June 19, 2013, 07:16:41 pm »
+1

I guess I don't understand the purpose of the lists. Are we comparing cards, cost, or value?

I made a long post about this already. We are comparing the general impact of cards on the board and for easier measure we group them by cost before.

Is this to promote discussion or education?

Both.

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #124 on: June 19, 2013, 07:32:58 pm »
0

It makes little sense to rate the same card multiple times... it's one card.  I personally think Chapel would be one of the best $3 cards, but I didn't put it in that list either.
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