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Author Topic: Overpay cards and the best cards lists  (Read 61478 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2013, 07:32:57 pm »
0

Somebody who is just starting to play Dominion competitively can learn a great deal about strategy from the ranking lists. Particularly about which cards are reasonable openings, which attacks are too strong to ignore, which cards are so weak that not buying them is generally sound strategy. This won't take you to the top, but I sure do see 5000+ rated people on Goko still buying Scout/Coppersmith/Pirate Ship and other worthless junk frequently and it blows my mind. A good ordering of the card strengths is a necessary foundation upon which to build more important strategic considerations. People will be out there buying $4 Masterpieces, and they will lose, but maybe if $4 Masterpiece is at the bottom of the $4 list someone will think twice about doing it.

Such people don't read the forums. WE read the forums. Not to mention, if they are just getting from a list, and not understanding *why* it's good or bad, then they haven't really learned anything, and it's not actually very useful to them.

Finally, sure people who have decently high-looking rankings play poorly (I had a guy over 5000 last night who bought some weird stuff, I thought he was going for a not-too-good but at least somewhat interesting try, and then... starting buying lots of duchies and estates, just leaving me to piledrive provinces with relative ease and no opposition). I don't understand what this has to do with the card lists though. It's more to do with Goko's ranking system not being all that good.

SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2013, 07:37:33 pm »
+1

I agree that it would be interesting to find other categories.  Of course, the categories will tend to overlap, and there are some real oddball cards out there that don't fit so well.  Of course, now even categorizing by "cost" has that problem  :P

By the way, I've seen some people mention that "$5 Stonemason" -- meaning a card a Stonemason where one must overpay by exactly $3 -- is not a real card and misses sight of some flexibility.  The flexibility argument is fair.  However, the idea is that $5 Stonemason is one of the options that you will consider when you have $5.  Therefore, $5 Stonemason should be understood as overpaying by up to $3, not exactly $3.  Just as you will sometimes use a hand of 5 Coppers to buy a Young Witch, you will sometimes use that hand to buy a Stonemason with two Hamlets.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2013, 07:39:47 pm »
0

The points about not segmenting the cards into multiple prices because it misrepresents what the card is capable of (all the effects at different price points) is a really good one. Calling $5 Stonemason a single card is a misrepresentation, you are all right about that. But I think calling it a $2 card is a misrepresentation as well.
One notable thing about putting cards at every price is that the combined effect of the card will be better than the sum of the whole. If we talk about "Stonecutter at $5", "Stonecutter at $6",... and consider each of their effects, sure, they can gain two $3's or two $4's, but are then a $2 card in your deck, oh well, and the gain effect is limited to X Y Z. But really, we have a lot more choice than that. If we could buy "Stonecutter for $7" then "Stonecutter for $2" through to "Stonecutter for $6" were also options, which is a subtlety that I think putting them into other lists would obfuscate.

Right, WW and HME mentioned this, and it's true. The question is: will we get a better idea of the overall strength of Stonemason by a) ranking it in several price classes and then forming a composite in our heads, or b) forming a composite image in our heads and then comparing it to the $2s.
I don't think this is a relevant question, and we won't get a very good idea of the overall strength of stonemason either way.
I'm failing to understand the relevance of BV or Conspirator (you can just evaluate these cards for what they do with on gain and play effects, the effects are fixed). I would love to see Peddler on the $2 and $4 list.
How are these effects more fixed than that of stonemason? Conspirator gives you $2 with or without cantripping... dependent on what you've played so far this turn, which is dependent on what is on the board. BV gains you a card costing up to 5... which absolutely depends on what's on the board. Stonemason bgives you extra paying extra for it... the strength of which is entirely dependent on the board.

The biggest point is the one Tables is making. The lists aren't some kind of buying guide, they're a very general gauge of the usefulness of different cards. Breaking them up by cost isn't at all about which card I would rather buy for a certain amount of money, it's just a way of grouping them. We happen to choose this because of a loose connection between price and power level, but it is a mostly arbitrary choice.
Furthermore, portraying the lists as a buying guide is I think mostly hurtful, as virtually every board has an exception, because you have to build a strategy which revolves around the set of cards rather than buying a collection of good cards.

Sure it's mainly a convenient organization thing, but that doesn't take away entirely its usefulness as a buying guide. I'm not sure why you are insisting that the lists aren't "at all" about buy preferences, since that's certainly one part of how the rankings are determined. Most strategic players prefer to buy cards which are more useful. You don't need to explain to me that Dominion strategy depends on the kingdom, I figured that one out at some point. I'm not insisting that the lists are great teachers of strategy, I've never said anything like that. But they really really do help beginners learn about powerful openings, and which cards you should seriously consider buying, and about which cards you should avoid like the plague. These concepts are important to beginning Dominion strategy, and even experienced players ignore strong cards at their peril. The lists also lead people to exploring the higher strategies involved in appropriate engine building by encouraging them to purchase cards which enable engines.

And just so it's clear, I think ranking the overpayers at their listed price point is a reasonable way to do it. I also think ranking them at more than one price point is reasonable and would be an interesting thought exercise which might give some extra information regarding those cards (plus more discussions/arguments!).
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 10:27:24 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2013, 07:47:46 pm »
0

Somebody who is just starting to play Dominion competitively can learn a great deal about strategy from the ranking lists. Particularly about which cards are reasonable openings, which attacks are too strong to ignore, which cards are so weak that not buying them is generally sound strategy. This won't take you to the top, but I sure do see 5000+ rated people on Goko still buying Scout/Coppersmith/Pirate Ship and other worthless junk frequently and it blows my mind. A good ordering of the card strengths is a necessary foundation upon which to build more important strategic considerations. People will be out there buying $4 Masterpieces, and they will lose, but maybe if $4 Masterpiece is at the bottom of the $4 list someone will think twice about doing it.

Such people don't read the forums. WE read the forums. Not to mention, if they are just getting from a list, and not understanding *why* it's good or bad, then they haven't really learned anything, and it's not actually very useful to them.

Beginners come to these forums all the time, people who want to start playing strategically visit this site all the time. The lists help because they encourage people to buy and play with strong cards, and this lets players gain experience/improve with strong cards.

Also, the *why* of card strength i.e. the analysis and tawk and articles are largely overrated. People just have to go out and play with the cards, and they will get better faster if they are not buying crap. You add the crap back in once you become competent with the good stuff. Lots of people add the crap back in way too soon.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2013, 07:51:55 pm »
0

By the way, I've seen some people mention that "$5 Stonemason" -- meaning a card a Stonemason where one must overpay by exactly $3 -- is not a real card and misses sight of some flexibility.  The flexibility argument is fair.  However, the idea is that $5 Stonemason is one of the options that you will consider when you have $5.  Therefore, $5 Stonemason should be understood as overpaying by up to $3, not exactly $3.
Then they should all be on a list at about several thousand, because the 'up to' clause would then encapsulate the whole card. However, I don't really see the point of that. I mean, I don't think it's a bad idea per se, just not any better than calling out, I dunno, cards that draw two as a group.

eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2013, 08:03:31 pm »
0

By the way, I've seen some people mention that "$5 Stonemason" -- meaning a card a Stonemason where one must overpay by exactly $3 -- is not a real card and misses sight of some flexibility.  The flexibility argument is fair.  However, the idea is that $5 Stonemason is one of the options that you will consider when you have $5.  Therefore, $5 Stonemason should be understood as overpaying by up to $3, not exactly $3.  Just as you will sometimes use a hand of 5 Coppers to buy a Young Witch, you will sometimes use that hand to buy a Stonemason with two Hamlets.

I think this is actually a potential argument for ranking Stonemason on a high cost list ONLY, instead of at $2 (and likewise for the other overpay cards).  I feel that the $2 list should not encompass effects that are only accessible when you pay more than $2.  But a higher cost list still makes sense to me for considering cards that let you pay less.  That's why I have no issue with Peddler being on the list where it is.  Ranking Stonemason against $6+ cards feels more useful to me than ranking it against $2 cards, where this $6+ Stonemason card has a negative quality of being worth less to TfB but a bonus of allowing you to pay less for it in return for a smaller on-buy benefit.

It's hard to explain, but I think it is better to compare potentially-cheaper cards against expensive cards than potentially-expensive cards against cheaper cards.  Can someone who feels similarly explain this better?

PPE: WW points out accurately that even ranking it at, say, $5 does not encompass the whole card because you can overpay far more.  However, those mega-purchases are (probably) rare enough that it's OK to omit them.  Moreover, we don't have a list for $1000 cost cards anyway.  For Stonemason specifically, you will never pay more than $10 for it because the most expensive card you could gain via the overpay is Peddler, and that's super unlikely to ever happen anyway.

My current vote is to stick the overpay cards on the list that ranks the most expensive cards.  Not that we are voting or anything.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2013, 08:03:52 pm »
+1

Count me among those who would include overpay cards with their nominaly priced cousins.

As an aside, does anyone else feel dirty liking a post by Robz that isn't a Scout joke?  It feels like I'm doing something wrong.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2013, 08:15:04 pm »
+1

By the way, I've seen some people mention that "$5 Stonemason" -- meaning a card a Stonemason where one must overpay by exactly $3 -- is not a real card and misses sight of some flexibility.  The flexibility argument is fair.  However, the idea is that $5 Stonemason is one of the options that you will consider when you have $5.  Therefore, $5 Stonemason should be understood as overpaying by up to $3, not exactly $3.  Just as you will sometimes use a hand of 5 Coppers to buy a Young Witch, you will sometimes use that hand to buy a Stonemason with two Hamlets.

I think this is actually a potential argument for ranking Stonemason on a high cost list ONLY, instead of at $2 (and likewise for the other overpay cards).  I feel that the $2 list should not encompass effects that are only accessible when you pay more than $2.  But a higher cost list still makes sense to me for considering cards that let you pay less.  That's why I have no issue with Peddler being on the list where it is.  Ranking Stonemason against $6+ cards feels more useful to me than ranking it against $2 cards, where this $6+ Stonemason card has a negative quality of being worth less to TfB but a bonus of allowing you to pay less for it in return for a smaller on-buy benefit.

It's hard to explain, but I think it is better to compare potentially-cheaper cards against expensive cards than potentially-expensive cards against cheaper cards.  Can someone who feels similarly explain this better?

PPE: WW points out accurately that even ranking it at, say, $5 does not encompass the whole card because you can overpay far more.  However, those mega-purchases are (probably) rare enough that it's OK to omit them.  Moreover, we don't have a list for $1000 cost cards anyway.  For Stonemason specifically, you will never pay more than $10 for it because the most expensive card you could gain via the overpay is Peddler, and that's super unlikely to ever happen anyway.

My current vote is to stick the overpay cards on the list that ranks the most expensive cards.  Not that we are voting or anything.

That seems reasonable to me for Stonemason and Masterpiece, but then I feel like Doctor and Herald somehow make more sense right at $3 and $4 respectively.  I don't have a good way of explaining it, but it's my gut feeling.
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theory

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2013, 08:17:47 pm »
+3

The only reason the lists are grouped by cost is that it is generally the most convenient way of grouping, since in order to make interesting choices happen, there tends to be a correlation between cost and strength (though this is a tendency and not at all a hard-and-fast rule). You could really break the list down however you want, even alphabetically.

Ideally, we would rate all the cards on a single list, but 200 kingdom cards is unwieldy to work with.

I don't think this is true.  It makes a lot more sense to compare Spy and Caravan than Caravan and Lab, even though Caravan is closer in concept to Lab.  We say Spy is a "bad card" not because it's actually harmful, but because at the same price point you can usually do a lot better. 

To put it another way, how would you all rank Doctor and Lookout?  Do you rank Lookout better because it has a better on-play effect?  (Assume this point is true for now.)  Do you rank Doctor higher because you can pay $6 for it?  If so, I would imagine that the overpay cards should dominate all of the top $X lists.

OTOH I don't like the idea of putting cards on multiple lists.  That seems so unwieldy and inelegant.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2013, 08:19:07 pm »
+2

[theory expousing the virtues of comparing equally priced cards]

Oh, you're one to talk  ;)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2013, 08:58:56 pm »
+1

The only reason the lists are grouped by cost is that it is generally the most convenient way of grouping, since in order to make interesting choices happen, there tends to be a correlation between cost and strength (though this is a tendency and not at all a hard-and-fast rule). You could really break the list down however you want, even alphabetically.

Ideally, we would rate all the cards on a single list, but 200 kingdom cards is unwieldy to work with.

I don't think this is true.  It makes a lot more sense to compare Spy and Caravan than Caravan and Lab, even though Caravan is closer in concept to Lab.  We say Spy is a "bad card" not because it's actually harmful, but because at the same price point you can usually do a lot better. 
This in no way conflicts with my statement. If you are evaluating a card by *anything*, of course its cost comes into account because of opportunity cost (among other reasons). This doesn't, however, imply that we must rank them against only other cards of their cost. I mean, you yourself posted the 'rank the villages' article, and of course to do that ranking, you had to take cost into account. (Well, and you also broke out $5 attacks separately).

I'm not actually suggesting that alphabetically is a *good* way to rank things, just that it's not all that much different/worse from cost.

I still think the optimal way is to do everything in a single list, it's just that nobody wants to do that. Maybe we still do it that way, all together, just instead of having lists be sent in, somebody sets up that program which was written before the last list to compare cards. So people just do that constantly, and there is a reference page which is the list of ratings based on those matchups. I don't know how much technical problem that poses, but it's an idea.

Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2013, 09:10:24 pm »
0

If you have a Village and a Worker's Village in the same kingdom the only thing you are adding with a WV purchase is +1 Buy for an additional coin.    You are "overpaying" your Village in order to add a Buy.  They are very different benefits at very different costs.  Stonemason is no different.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2013, 09:15:51 pm »
0

By the way, I've seen some people mention that "$5 Stonemason" -- meaning a card a Stonemason where one must overpay by exactly $3 -- is not a real card and misses sight of some flexibility.  The flexibility argument is fair.  However, the idea is that $5 Stonemason is one of the options that you will consider when you have $5.  Therefore, $5 Stonemason should be understood as overpaying by up to $3, not exactly $3.  Just as you will sometimes use a hand of 5 Coppers to buy a Young Witch, you will sometimes use that hand to buy a Stonemason with two Hamlets.

I think this is actually a potential argument for ranking Stonemason on a high cost list ONLY, instead of at $2 (and likewise for the other overpay cards).  I feel that the $2 list should not encompass effects that are only accessible when you pay more than $2.  But a higher cost list still makes sense to me for considering cards that let you pay less.  That's why I have no issue with Peddler being on the list where it is.  Ranking Stonemason against $6+ cards feels more useful to me than ranking it against $2 cards, where this $6+ Stonemason card has a negative quality of being worth less to TfB but a bonus of allowing you to pay less for it in return for a smaller on-buy benefit.

It's hard to explain, but I think it is better to compare potentially-cheaper cards against expensive cards than potentially-expensive cards against cheaper cards.  Can someone who feels similarly explain this better?

PPE: WW points out accurately that even ranking it at, say, $5 does not encompass the whole card because you can overpay far more.  However, those mega-purchases are (probably) rare enough that it's OK to omit them.  Moreover, we don't have a list for $1000 cost cards anyway.  For Stonemason specifically, you will never pay more than $10 for it because the most expensive card you could gain via the overpay is Peddler, and that's super unlikely to ever happen anyway.

My current vote is to stick the overpay cards on the list that ranks the most expensive cards.  Not that we are voting or anything.

That seems reasonable to me for Stonemason and Masterpiece, but then I feel like Doctor and Herald somehow make more sense right at $3 and $4 respectively.  I don't have a good way of explaining it, but it's my gut feeling.

I agree about Doctor and especially Herald. Herald really feels like a $4 card because my experience has been to mostly buy it at $4 and occasionally use its overpay ability.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2013, 09:30:22 pm »
0

By the way, I've seen some people mention that "$5 Stonemason" -- meaning a card a Stonemason where one must overpay by exactly $3 -- is not a real card and misses sight of some flexibility.  The flexibility argument is fair.  However, the idea is that $5 Stonemason is one of the options that you will consider when you have $5.  Therefore, $5 Stonemason should be understood as overpaying by up to $3, not exactly $3.  Just as you will sometimes use a hand of 5 Coppers to buy a Young Witch, you will sometimes use that hand to buy a Stonemason with two Hamlets.

I think this is actually a potential argument for ranking Stonemason on a high cost list ONLY, instead of at $2 (and likewise for the other overpay cards).  I feel that the $2 list should not encompass effects that are only accessible when you pay more than $2.  But a higher cost list still makes sense to me for considering cards that let you pay less.  That's why I have no issue with Peddler being on the list where it is.  Ranking Stonemason against $6+ cards feels more useful to me than ranking it against $2 cards, where this $6+ Stonemason card has a negative quality of being worth less to TfB but a bonus of allowing you to pay less for it in return for a smaller on-buy benefit.

It's hard to explain, but I think it is better to compare potentially-cheaper cards against expensive cards than potentially-expensive cards against cheaper cards.  Can someone who feels similarly explain this better?

PPE: WW points out accurately that even ranking it at, say, $5 does not encompass the whole card because you can overpay far more.  However, those mega-purchases are (probably) rare enough that it's OK to omit them.  Moreover, we don't have a list for $1000 cost cards anyway.  For Stonemason specifically, you will never pay more than $10 for it because the most expensive card you could gain via the overpay is Peddler, and that's super unlikely to ever happen anyway.

My current vote is to stick the overpay cards on the list that ranks the most expensive cards.  Not that we are voting or anything.

That seems reasonable to me for Stonemason and Masterpiece, but then I feel like Doctor and Herald somehow make more sense right at $3 and $4 respectively.  I don't have a good way of explaining it, but it's my gut feeling.

I agree about Doctor and especially Herald. Herald really feels like a $4 card because my experience has been to mostly buy it at $4 and occasionally use its overpay ability.

Yeah, I'll agree with this too.  With Stonemason, you will almost always be overpaying heavily.  Masterpiece is so much better when overpaid (and so weak at $3 or $4) that it also makes sense to compare it with other expensive options.  I'm not sure about Doctor though.

I think Herald might make more sense to rank with $4 cards because its overpay effect is more of a temporary boon.  Overpaid Stonemason and Masterpiece both add a lot to your deck.  Overpaid Doctor potentially changes your deck drastically as well.  But Herald doesn't -- it just improves your next turn.  That might be game-changing, of course, but it is a fleeting bonus rather than a permanent one.  Put another way, the overpay effects of Stonemason and Masterpiece are generally more important and impactful than their on-play effects.  Herald seems to be shaping up the other way.

With that in mind, I'm not sure about Doctor.  Right now I believe that Doctor's on-play effect is much stronger than it's overpay effect, but I am not sure.  Quick trashing by overpaying for Doctor may actually be very important.  If so, it would be worth it to compare it to other expensive options.
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Robz888

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2013, 09:43:19 pm »
+7

Cards can be ranked in a variety of ways. You can rank the villages. If you do so, you just have to consider cost as part of the overall goodness of the card. Like, Bazaar is a real good village-type card, but it's a bit pricey. So it ends up in the mid-to-upper tier on the village rankings.

You can rank the cards based on cost (as we do here). If you do that, you are taking into account the other elements of the card when you rank it. Think of, whatever way you set up the ranking, that thing is the thing you are holding constant. When we ask "What are the best $3 cards?" we are saying, let's disregard cost, look at all these things with the same base cost, and compare them. Lookout is fine, it does some nice trashing and sifting and it's non terminal, but sometimes you hit good stuff and it doesn't replace itself so it's kind of meh. Doctor is terminal, which is not so good, but hey, it's trashing is stronger in the early game and also you can overpay for it and do this cool thing. The overpay aspect is just an aspect of the card we are looking at here as we hold cost constant.

Or else, I demand a Duchess category. It's the only card that's price is "You bought a Duchy." It's the best card with the price "You bought a Duchy"!
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StrongRhino

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2013, 09:54:50 pm »
0

Have to agree with Robz. Just keep doing what we've been doing. I don't see why we need to put a card in multiple sections. Think of it as an on-buy effect that only triggers with a certain circumstance (overpay).

That being said, I think it's silly/funny (and actually kind of sad) that we are actually arguing about how to organize cards to rank on a list that honestly, doesn't really mean anything.

(Also, Qvist, it would be nice to have a village ranking next time)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2013, 09:57:26 pm »
0

Cards can be ranked in a variety of ways. You can rank the villages. If you do so, you just have to consider cost as part of the overall goodness of the card. Like, Bazaar is a real good village-type card, but it's a bit pricey. So it ends up in the mid-to-upper tier on the village rankings.

You can rank the cards based on cost (as we do here). If you do that, you are taking into account the other elements of the card when you rank it. Think of, whatever way you set up the ranking, that thing is the thing you are holding constant. When we ask "What are the best $3 cards?" we are saying, let's disregard cost, look at all these things with the same base cost, and compare them. Lookout is fine, it does some nice trashing and sifting and it's non terminal, but sometimes you hit good stuff and it doesn't replace itself so it's kind of meh. Doctor is terminal, which is not so good, but hey, it's trashing is stronger in the early game and also you can overpay for it and do this cool thing. The overpay aspect is just an aspect of the card we are looking at here as we hold cost constant.

Or else, I demand a Duchess category. It's the only card that's price is "You bought a Duchy." It's the best card with the price "You bought a Duchy"!

Yes, you are right -- when we rank cards based on cost, you are saying, "let's compare all the attributes of these cards, disregarding cost".  I guess this is where the disagreement is coming up.  Yeah overpaying is separate from the cost, but not entirely.  It still requires payment, so it is intrinsically linked to cost.  If you categorize by the cards by their base costs without regard for the overpay, you might as well just rank them all together regardless of cost.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2013, 10:00:57 pm »
0

Or else, I demand a Duchess category. It's the only card that's price is "You bought a Duchy." It's the best card with the price "You bought a Duchy"!

Really?  If the rest of the community agreed upon some cost-related categorization for Stonemason which you disagreed with, you would demand Duchess be in a separate category?  I don't believe you.
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Robz888

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2013, 10:05:17 pm »
+1

Or else, I demand a Duchess category. It's the only card that's price is "You bought a Duchy." It's the best card with the price "You bought a Duchy"!

Really?  If the rest of the community agreed upon some cost-related categorization for Stonemason which you disagreed with, you would demand Duchess be in a separate category?  I don't believe you.

Well, I'm obviously being facetious. I mention Duchess because everyone is acting like this has never come up before. "Oh my God, how do we rank these cards with weird cost bonuses???!!!" Just rank them with the other cards of the same base price, like we do for Peddler, Border Village, Grand Market, and Duchess.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2013, 10:15:37 pm »
0

Border Village doesn't have a weird price.

Grand Market has a bit of a weird price, but its weird price is unambiguously $6+.

Peddler has a weird price.  I have no doubt that the most common price paid for a Peddler is $0, but what on Earth could it have meant to compare Peddler with Curse and Copper?  Edge cases aside, we would unanimously rank them Peddler > Copper > Curse.

Duchess usually isn't paid for.  In some ways it is like a Prize or like Madman/Mercenary/Spoils.  But sometimes you do buy it.  Crucially, it is one of your buy options when you have at least $2.

So of these cards, the only one that I agree really challenges the cost framework is Peddler.  With just one exception, you make do.
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AJD

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2013, 10:23:30 pm »
+5

I demand a Duchess category. It's the only card that's price is "You bought a Duchy." It's the best card with the price "You bought a Duchy"!

I dunno, Duchy might be better. Depends on the kingdom.
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Robz888

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2013, 10:30:30 pm »
+1

Border Village doesn't have a weird price.

Grand Market has a bit of a weird price, but its weird price is unambiguously $6+.

Peddler has a weird price.  I have no doubt that the most common price paid for a Peddler is $0, but what on Earth could it have meant to compare Peddler with Curse and Copper?  Edge cases aside, we would unanimously rank them Peddler > Copper > Curse.

Duchess usually isn't paid for.  In some ways it is like a Prize or like Madman/Mercenary/Spoils.  But sometimes you do buy it.  Crucially, it is one of your buy options when you have at least $2.

So of these cards, the only one that I agree really challenges the cost framework is Peddler.  With just one exception, you make do.

Doctor doesn't have a weird price. It costs $3. If you pay more for it, something interesting happens. Still, it's a $3 card, and it can be compared logically and intuitively to other $3 cards. Like Lookout. I think it's better than Lookout, one reason being its overpay thing, but yeah, they are both $3 cards.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2013, 10:53:18 pm »
+3

Border Village doesn't have a weird price.

Grand Market has a bit of a weird price, but its weird price is unambiguously $6+.

Peddler has a weird price.  I have no doubt that the most common price paid for a Peddler is $0, but what on Earth could it have meant to compare Peddler with Curse and Copper?  Edge cases aside, we would unanimously rank them Peddler > Copper > Curse.

Duchess usually isn't paid for.  In some ways it is like a Prize or like Madman/Mercenary/Spoils.  But sometimes you do buy it.  Crucially, it is one of your buy options when you have at least $2.

So of these cards, the only one that I agree really challenges the cost framework is Peddler.  With just one exception, you make do.

Doctor doesn't have a weird price. It costs $3. If you pay more for it, something interesting happens. Still, it's a $3 card, and it can be compared logically and intuitively to other $3 cards. Like Lookout. I think it's better than Lookout, one reason being its overpay thing, but yeah, they are both $3 cards.

Firstly, I've already stated that I feel like Doctor ought to be ranked as a $3 card.  Similarly Herald as a $4 card.

However, what myself and a few others have argued in this thread is that there was a reason for ranking by cost.  Cost tells you what the competition is. 

I have $3 to spend, what will I get? I could get Masterpiece, but Masterpiece is almost always a stupid purchase when I only have $3.  Likewise, even with $3, I doubt I'd want a Stonemason.  Alright, I'll buy a Silver.

Next hand.  I have $6.  I have four compelling options now.  I could buy a Gold.  Or I could buy a Masterpiece, overpaying by $3 to gain three Silvers.  Or I could buy Stonemason, overpaying by $4 to get two Smithies.  Or finally, I could buy a Border Village and take a Smithy with it.

Notice that when I had more money to spend, suddenly Masterpiece and Stonemason became more attractive options.  Border Village didn't do that, it had a fixed cost.

A player doesn't rack her brain choosing between Masterpiece and Silver for $3, but rather choosing between Masterpiece and Gold for $6.

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Robz888

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2013, 12:05:45 am »
+1

Border Village doesn't have a weird price.

Grand Market has a bit of a weird price, but its weird price is unambiguously $6+.

Peddler has a weird price.  I have no doubt that the most common price paid for a Peddler is $0, but what on Earth could it have meant to compare Peddler with Curse and Copper?  Edge cases aside, we would unanimously rank them Peddler > Copper > Curse.

Duchess usually isn't paid for.  In some ways it is like a Prize or like Madman/Mercenary/Spoils.  But sometimes you do buy it.  Crucially, it is one of your buy options when you have at least $2.

So of these cards, the only one that I agree really challenges the cost framework is Peddler.  With just one exception, you make do.

Doctor doesn't have a weird price. It costs $3. If you pay more for it, something interesting happens. Still, it's a $3 card, and it can be compared logically and intuitively to other $3 cards. Like Lookout. I think it's better than Lookout, one reason being its overpay thing, but yeah, they are both $3 cards.

Firstly, I've already stated that I feel like Doctor ought to be ranked as a $3 card.  Similarly Herald as a $4 card.

However, what myself and a few others have argued in this thread is that there was a reason for ranking by cost.  Cost tells you what the competition is. 

I have $3 to spend, what will I get? I could get Masterpiece, but Masterpiece is almost always a stupid purchase when I only have $3.  Likewise, even with $3, I doubt I'd want a Stonemason.  Alright, I'll buy a Silver.

Next hand.  I have $6.  I have four compelling options now.  I could buy a Gold.  Or I could buy a Masterpiece, overpaying by $3 to gain three Silvers.  Or I could buy Stonemason, overpaying by $4 to get two Smithies.  Or finally, I could buy a Border Village and take a Smithy with it.

Notice that when I had more money to spend, suddenly Masterpiece and Stonemason became more attractive options.  Border Village didn't do that, it had a fixed cost.

A player doesn't rack her brain choosing between Masterpiece and Silver for $3, but rather choosing between Masterpiece and Gold for $6.

Maybe this is some "how is your brain wired?" sort of thing. I see Masterpiece, a $3 card, and I say how good is it compared to other $3 cards? Pretty bad, well, except I can do this overpay thing that's sort of nice, and I would want to do that in X, Y, and Z situations, meaning on average here's how good it is, relative to other $3 cards. I still say its overpay component is an aspect of an otherwise $3 card.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2013, 12:41:47 am »
+1

Regarding beginning players and the lists:

I think the lists are actually very useful to newer players to help the recognize the cards that are stronger, so they are more likely to try them out and learn about them. Focusing in on a few cards rather than being drowned by 200 different cards can definitely help people get better faster. I think the best way to do this is to just recognize the "best" X number of cards (where X increases as you get more comfortable) and focus on building strategies around those cards -- NOT making decisions turn-by-turn using the list as a reference. Yes some people may end up doing that. But we're not doing them a huge disservice by not putting cards on multiple lists. By employing this strategy, they're missing enough already that a few cards being on multiple lists is not going to make a noticeable difference.
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