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Author Topic: Overpay cards and the best cards lists  (Read 76294 times)

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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2013, 01:52:28 pm »
+1

It's impossible to value Masterpiece's overall strength, as it (and other overpay cards to a lesser extent) is an entirely different card if you buy it at $3 or #6.

And it's equally "impossible" to value the overall strength of Village, since it's entirely different depending on what terminals are available. But we rank it anyway. If cost were actually the most important variable in evaluating the value of cards, then it might make sense to do something special with these cards, but it's not. There are a ton of variables that affect the value of cards that are not related to cost and we just deal with them, so it doesn't seem like this needs any special treatment.

Another argument is that can actually overpay for any card. There are just 4 cards which also give you an added benefit if you do. You can say the value of a card X is something like:
\sum_i Pr(buy X for $i) * (value of X when bought for $i)
For cards without overpay bonuses, (value of X when bought for $i) is independent of i, so it comes out of the sum and you just get (value of X when bought for $i)*Pr(buy X).
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2013, 02:24:34 pm »
+2

From my experience so far, you want to overpay for Stonemason and Masterpiece. But, most often, I don't find myself overpaying for Herald all that much. So, where would we put Herald then? And, what if you really did want to buy Masterpiece for $3?

Really, I think we should look at overpay as a special ability these cards have. When you buy a Stonemason, you are still paying $2 for it. Then, if you overpay by $5, you are really just using its special ability. Yes, you spent $7 total, but really, you spent $2 on the card, plus $5 on the special ability.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2013, 04:30:08 pm »
0

A $2+ Stonemason that you pay two extra coins for is now a $4 card.  Different cost, different ability.  Just the way it is.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2013, 05:13:33 pm »
+10

A $2+ Stonemason that you pay two extra coins for is now a $4 card.  Different cost, different ability.  Just the way it is.
No it's not. If you Salvage it, you still only get $2. It's a $2 card.

What if Stonemason instead just cost $2 and had an on-buy ability to the effect of "When you buy this, you may buy another card without using a buy and without applying any on-buy effects. If you do, gain another copy of that card"?

This is nearly enough the same thing as Stonemason without the variable cost. Would you argue that this card should go anywhere other than the $2 list?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2013, 05:51:01 pm »
+1

Alright HiveMindEmulator, that pretty much settles it for me.  Similarly, Masterpiece could have been a $3 card which says "when you buy this, you may buy as many Silvers for $1 a piece as you please" and it would be roughly equivalent (edge cases like Goons or Merchant Guild aside).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2013, 05:52:10 pm »
+6

The only reason the lists are grouped by cost is that it is generally the most convenient way of grouping, since in order to make interesting choices happen, there tends to be a correlation between cost and strength (though this is a tendency and not at all a hard-and-fast rule). You could really break the list down however you want, even alphabetically.

Ideally, we would rate all the cards on a single list, but 200 kingdom cards is unwieldy to work with.

Schneau

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2013, 06:04:43 pm »
0

A $2+ Stonemason that you pay two extra coins for is now a $4 card.  Different cost, different ability.  Just the way it is.
No it's not. If you Salvage it, you still only get $2. It's a $2 card.

What if Stonemason instead just cost $2 and had an on-buy ability to the effect of "When you buy this, you may buy another card without using a buy and without applying any on-buy effects. If you do, gain another copy of that card"?

This is nearly enough the same thing as Stonemason without the variable cost. Would you argue that this card should go anywhere other than the $2 list?

This. And it's not just theoretical. The Guilds rules say that the card itself "still has its normal cost for all purposes," and then gives the examples that overpaying for Masterpiece with a Haggler in play doesn't allow you to gain a card costing more than $2.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2013, 06:11:34 pm »
+1

A $2+ Stonemason that you pay two extra coins for is now a $4 card.  Different cost, different ability.  Just the way it is.
No it's not. If you Salvage it, you still only get $2. It's a $2 card.

What if Stonemason instead just cost $2 and had an on-buy ability to the effect of "When you buy this, you may buy another card without using a buy and without applying any on-buy effects. If you do, gain another copy of that card"?

This is nearly enough the same thing as Stonemason without the variable cost. Would you argue that this card should go anywhere other than the $2 list?

For your next trick, do the same thing for Doctor and Herald. Playing word games to obscure the variability of the cost isn't convincing. It doesn't address the main argument in favor including overpayers in multiple lists which is that buying a Stonemason for $2 and for $7 gives a dramatically different on buy effect. And yes, I realize that not all the overpayers change as dramatically as Stonemason.

To those who are opposed: why not include them on multiple lists? It just provides more information for very little extra effort. Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.
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Tables

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2013, 06:19:11 pm »
0

The only reason the lists are grouped by cost is that it is generally the most convenient way of grouping, since in order to make interesting choices happen, there tends to be a correlation between cost and strength (though this is a tendency and not at all a hard-and-fast rule). You could really break the list down however you want, even alphabetically.

Ideally, we would rate all the cards on a single list, but 200 kingdom cards is unwieldy to work with.

Rating all the cards on a single list has it's own issues, although it's not ones we entirely avoid already. It's downright weird to try and say things like, "Which is better, Fairgrounds or Squire"? What does it even mean to say that Fairgrounds is better/worse than Squire? They're just so totally different cards. Of course we still have a similar issue with things like, Duke against Vault, but at least similar cost limits the weirdness in most cases (and potion costs, there's few enough of that we can still do meaningful comparisons).

Although, if we DID want to do an all cards list, I reckon it'd be viable, but you'd probably want to put things through maybe two-three rounds. Two of preliminary rough sorts, then from that create maybe ~10 lists of about 25-30 cards with overlap, and use those to make a master list. Not saying it's a good idea, but... it's possible to limit the unwieldiness.

As for the argument at hand: I'm kind of indifferent. I've seen good arguments on both sides. When it comes to having $6 in my buy phase and 1 buy, Masterpiece is there as an option, giving me 1 psuedocopper and up to three silvers. $5? It's there again. I'm comparing it to the other $5's and considering it's worth. But then again you can consider it to just be another quirk of the $3 card. Like, you could decide to put Ambassador in with the $5's to see how it does. The fact it's cheaper and thus more available, but worse with TfB is just an oddity it has in the comparisons.

Ultimately I think it comes down to what WW said. Grouping by cost is an arbitrary convenience we chose. Now that there are things to challenge our (mostly) fixed notion of cost, we might want to consider other relevant groupings, but I doubt we'll find anything quite so encompassing as cost, even with the slight issue of overpay effects.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2013, 06:21:57 pm »
0

A $2+ Stonemason that you pay two extra coins for is now a $4 card.  Different cost, different ability.  Just the way it is.
No it's not. If you Salvage it, you still only get $2. It's a $2 card.

What if Stonemason instead just cost $2 and had an on-buy ability to the effect of "When you buy this, you may buy another card without using a buy and without applying any on-buy effects. If you do, gain another copy of that card"?

This is nearly enough the same thing as Stonemason without the variable cost. Would you argue that this card should go anywhere other than the $2 list?

For your next trick, do the same thing for Doctor and Herald. Playing word games to obscure the variability of the cost isn't convincing. It doesn't address the main argument in favor including overpayers in multiple lists which is that buying a Stonemason for $2 and for $7 gives a dramatically different on buy effect. And yes, I realize that not all the overpayers change as dramatically as Stonemason.

To those who are opposed: why not include them on multiple lists? It just provides more information for very little extra effort. Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.
The issue is, I can't break the card up into parts. The-part-of-stonemason-I-get-on-a-7-cost-card, or on a 5 cost card, or on... whatever it is you are paying for it can't be easily separated from each other. And even if they could, you still aren't actually ever ranking the card itself - flexibility to do those different things is a big part of its strength.

Schneau

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2013, 06:26:53 pm »
0

A $2+ Stonemason that you pay two extra coins for is now a $4 card.  Different cost, different ability.  Just the way it is.
No it's not. If you Salvage it, you still only get $2. It's a $2 card.

What if Stonemason instead just cost $2 and had an on-buy ability to the effect of "When you buy this, you may buy another card without using a buy and without applying any on-buy effects. If you do, gain another copy of that card"?

This is nearly enough the same thing as Stonemason without the variable cost. Would you argue that this card should go anywhere other than the $2 list?

For your next trick, do the same thing for Doctor and Herald. Playing word games to obscure the variability of the cost isn't convincing.

There is no variability of the cost. The cost is fixed, as described in the rules. You may then pay more than the cost to get an effect. In fact, Peddler's cost is less fixed than these, but no one has ever suggested it should be on the $2 list and the $4 list.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2013, 06:29:19 pm »
+1

Wouldn't the value of overpaying for stone mason at any given cost depend on the value of the cards in the kingdom at that cost? If we assume we are averaging over all kingdoms, then stone mason comes out at essentially average on every list (since buying stone mason is essentially buying a $2 copy of another card, which comes with a free stonemason, a la duchess; I'm assuming the utility of the stone mason in your deck is cancelled out by having another terminal you don't want). And if a stonemason appears on the $3 list, do we assume it's gaining 2 poor houses, wasting money, or undergoing highway shenanigans?

It's very similar to band of misfits in that way, but band of misfits isn't competing with the cards that it mimics.

More broadly, the cards are already unwieldy to rank; having to rank additional cards (esp. ones where the overpayment effect makes ranking tricky; what is the ranking difference between a doctor that overpays by 2 vs. 3?) adds work without much gain. Sure, it's only 4 cards (times the number of lists each could appear in), but it's exceptionally tricky. Assessing the new Guild cards will already be tough (just look at how badly the Dark Ages cards were judged in the current list), there is no need to break that up further.
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jonts26

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2013, 06:29:42 pm »
+2

To those who are opposed: why not include them on multiple lists? It just provides more information for very little extra effort. Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.

Having a ranking for a $2 SM, a $3 SM, a $4 SM, a $5 SM, a $6+ SM is more than a little cumbersome (and do that for the others as well).

Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.

And here's the real issue. If you're using these lists to inform your strategy on a given board, you are doing it so wrong. These ratings give general sense of card strength over all boards. The decision to overpay and by how much has nothing to do here.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2013, 06:30:34 pm »
+1

A $2+ Stonemason that you pay two extra coins for is now a $4 card.  Different cost, different ability.  Just the way it is.
No it's not. If you Salvage it, you still only get $2. It's a $2 card.

What if Stonemason instead just cost $2 and had an on-buy ability to the effect of "When you buy this, you may buy another card without using a buy and without applying any on-buy effects. If you do, gain another copy of that card"?

This is nearly enough the same thing as Stonemason without the variable cost. Would you argue that this card should go anywhere other than the $2 list?

For your next trick, do the same thing for Doctor and Herald. Playing word games to obscure the variability of the cost isn't convincing. It doesn't address the main argument in favor including overpayers in multiple lists which is that buying a Stonemason for $2 and for $7 gives a dramatically different on buy effect. And yes, I realize that not all the overpayers change as dramatically as Stonemason.

To those who are opposed: why not include them on multiple lists? It just provides more information for very little extra effort. Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.
The issue is, I can't break the card up into parts. The-part-of-stonemason-I-get-on-a-7-cost-card, or on a 5 cost card, or on... whatever it is you are paying for it can't be easily separated from each other. And even if they could, you still aren't actually ever ranking the card itself - flexibility to do those different things is a big part of its strength.

The flexibility as strength thing is a very good point, and I hadn't considered it. I still don't think it's impossible to rank each price reasonably though, you just have to consider what the effect would be at each price and evaluate its usefulness (plus the usefulness of the Stonemason you've got). This will be hard to do right now, but once everybody has played with the card more I think it's doable.

And I think it will be strange if Stonemason is ranked as the #2 or #3 best $2 card whenever it's only strong if purchased for at least $4.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2013, 06:35:36 pm »
+3

A $2+ Stonemason that you pay two extra coins for is now a $4 card.  Different cost, different ability.  Just the way it is.
No it's not. If you Salvage it, you still only get $2. It's a $2 card.

What if Stonemason instead just cost $2 and had an on-buy ability to the effect of "When you buy this, you may buy another card without using a buy and without applying any on-buy effects. If you do, gain another copy of that card"?

This is nearly enough the same thing as Stonemason without the variable cost. Would you argue that this card should go anywhere other than the $2 list?

For your next trick, do the same thing for Doctor and Herald. Playing word games to obscure the variability of the cost isn't convincing. It doesn't address the main argument in favor including overpayers in multiple lists which is that buying a Stonemason for $2 and for $7 gives a dramatically different on buy effect. And yes, I realize that not all the overpayers change as dramatically as Stonemason.

To those who are opposed: why not include them on multiple lists? It just provides more information for very little extra effort. Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.
The issue is, I can't break the card up into parts. The-part-of-stonemason-I-get-on-a-7-cost-card, or on a 5 cost card, or on... whatever it is you are paying for it can't be easily separated from each other. And even if they could, you still aren't actually ever ranking the card itself - flexibility to do those different things is a big part of its strength.

The flexibility as strength thing is a very good point, and I hadn't considered it. I still don't think it's impossible to rank each price reasonably though, you just have to consider what the effect would be at each price and evaluate its usefulness (plus the usefulness of the Stonemason you've got). This will be hard to do right now, but once everybody has played with the card more I think it's doable.

And I think it will be strange if Stonemason is ranked as the #2 or #3 best $2 card whenever it's only strong if purchased for at least $4.
I find it strange that Border Village is close to the best 6+cost when it is just a middle-of-the-road $3 effect. Or the peddler issue. Or duchess, since you usually gain it for free. Or that conspirator is good when sometimes it's absolutely useless. I mean, okay, I am paying more for it. So what? I usually don't buy fool's gold or chapel or ANY 2-cost for 2, really. That I need to spend more on it is something I think people can handle, much like grand market's buy restriction.

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2013, 06:36:41 pm »
+2

To those who are opposed: why not include them on multiple lists? It just provides more information for very little extra effort. Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.

I don't think it provides "more" information. It provides different (and imo less useful) information. If we "split" the card into different lists, each version of the card is weaker than the card as a whole, and more importantly is not an actual Dominion card. On the $5 list, are we putting some version of Stonemason that can only be bought for $5? Such a card does not exist, and by ranking it, you start to open up a pandora's box. Why aren't we ranking other cards that don't exist, like $4 vanilla village?
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2013, 06:40:07 pm »
+2

To those who are opposed: why not include them on multiple lists? It just provides more information for very little extra effort. Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.

Having a ranking for a $2 SM, a $3 SM, a $4 SM, a $5 SM, a $6+ SM is more than a little cumbersome (and do that for the others as well).

Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.

And here's the real issue. If you're using these lists to inform your strategy on a given board, you are doing it so wrong. These ratings give general sense of card strength over all boards. The decision to overpay and by how much has nothing to do here.

Well, I disagree on the added effort, you are effectively adding 11 more cards to rank then you would normally. But I suppose that will depend on the person. Shouldn't require much extra effort from Qvist, since I imagine he has a good system in place.

Somebody who is just starting to play Dominion competitively can learn a great deal about strategy from the ranking lists. Particularly about which cards are reasonable openings, which attacks are too strong to ignore, which cards are so weak that not buying them is generally sound strategy. This won't take you to the top, but I sure do see 5000+ rated people on Goko still buying Scout/Coppersmith/Pirate Ship and other worthless junk frequently and it blows my mind. A good ordering of the card strengths is a necessary foundation upon which to build more important strategic considerations. People will be out there buying $4 Masterpieces, and they will lose, but maybe if $4 Masterpiece is at the bottom of the $4 list someone will think twice about doing it.

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Schneau

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2013, 06:43:04 pm »
0

To those who are opposed: why not include them on multiple lists? It just provides more information for very little extra effort. Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.

I don't think it provides "more" information. It provides different (and imo less useful) information. If we "split" the card into different lists, each version of the card is weaker than the card as a whole, and more importantly is not an actual Dominion card. On the $5 list, are we putting some version of Stonemason that can only be bought for $5? Such a card does not exist, and by ranking it, you start to open up a pandora's box. Why aren't we ranking other cards that don't exist, like $4 vanilla village?

Or put Silver on the $4 and $5 lists, where it is often bought?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2013, 06:47:22 pm »
+1

I mean, okay, I am paying more for it. So what? I usually don't buy fool's gold or chapel or ANY 2-cost for 2, really. That I need to spend more on it is something I think people can handle, much like grand market's buy restriction.

I see your point that you usually have more than $2 when you buy the $2 card.  But it's also true from a strategy point of view that you are aware that all you need is $2.  It's pretty common to be considering, say, buying that Squire you need for some +buy, but then deciding not to spend $4 on it since you are confident that you'll make $2 again before the end of this shuffle, and right now the $4 needs to go towards Conspirators.

On the other hand, that Stonemason might be completely worthless for your strategy until you make $6 or even $7.  And there is a huge difference between $2 and $6.  You probably don't spend $6 on a $2 card often.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2013, 06:51:00 pm »
+2

A $2+ Stonemason that you pay two extra coins for is now a $4 card.  Different cost, different ability.  Just the way it is.
No it's not. If you Salvage it, you still only get $2. It's a $2 card.

What if Stonemason instead just cost $2 and had an on-buy ability to the effect of "When you buy this, you may buy another card without using a buy and without applying any on-buy effects. If you do, gain another copy of that card"?

This is nearly enough the same thing as Stonemason without the variable cost. Would you argue that this card should go anywhere other than the $2 list?

For your next trick, do the same thing for Doctor and Herald. Playing word games to obscure the variability of the cost isn't convincing. It doesn't address the main argument in favor including overpayers in multiple lists which is that buying a Stonemason for $2 and for $7 gives a dramatically different on buy effect. And yes, I realize that not all the overpayers change as dramatically as Stonemason.

To those who are opposed: why not include them on multiple lists? It just provides more information for very little extra effort. Four cards isn't a lot more to rank and it potentially informs decisions about how much you want to overpay for the various cards.
The issue is, I can't break the card up into parts. The-part-of-stonemason-I-get-on-a-7-cost-card, or on a 5 cost card, or on... whatever it is you are paying for it can't be easily separated from each other. And even if they could, you still aren't actually ever ranking the card itself - flexibility to do those different things is a big part of its strength.

The flexibility as strength thing is a very good point, and I hadn't considered it. I still don't think it's impossible to rank each price reasonably though, you just have to consider what the effect would be at each price and evaluate its usefulness (plus the usefulness of the Stonemason you've got). This will be hard to do right now, but once everybody has played with the card more I think it's doable.

And I think it will be strange if Stonemason is ranked as the #2 or #3 best $2 card whenever it's only strong if purchased for at least $4.
I find it strange that Border Village is close to the best 6+cost when it is just a middle-of-the-road $3 effect. Or the peddler issue. Or duchess, since you usually gain it for free. Or that conspirator is good when sometimes it's absolutely useless. I mean, okay, I am paying more for it. So what? I usually don't buy fool's gold or chapel or ANY 2-cost for 2, really. That I need to spend more on it is something I think people can handle, much like grand market's buy restriction.

I'm failing to understand the relevance of BV or Conspirator (you can just evaluate these cards for what they do with on gain and play effects, the effects are fixed). I would love to see Peddler on the $2 and $4 list. For the FG/Chapel thing. You spend $3 or $4 on those cards pretty often, but it does not change the actual effect of the card. In the case of Stonemason you are explicitly getting a different effect at each price point, and you can distinguish between the usefulness of each of these different effects.

The points about not segmenting the cards into multiple prices because it misrepresents what the card is capable of (all the effects at different price points) is a really good one. Calling $5 Stonemason a single card is a misrepresentation, you are all right about that. But I think calling it a $2 card is a misrepresentation as well.
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ashersky

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2013, 06:56:06 pm »
+4

This whole thread personifies the f.ds motto: it depends on the kingdom.

You are arguing about how Stonemason with Sea Hag on the board makes SM a 6, so maybe we should rank it against Gold.  Or Stonemason with Wharf on the board makes it a 7.  Etc.

Don't we (you) take kingdom into account when ranking all the other cards?  I don't see a difference here.  Stonemason's overpay ability is dependent on the kingdom, just like Highway or Tunnel.  Just keep it in mind when comparing it to Pawn.
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Tables

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2013, 07:01:53 pm »
0

The points about not segmenting the cards into multiple prices because it misrepresents what the card is capable of (all the effects at different price points) is a really good one. Calling $5 Stonemason a single card is a misrepresentation, you are all right about that. But I think calling it a $2 card is a misrepresentation as well.

This is pretty much what I said earlier. Our divisions into costs are arbitrary. If we put it into the $2 list it's because that's the list where it's most reasonably represented. It just means we have to be more careful with how we talk about that particular list.

One notable thing about putting cards at every price is that the combined effect of the card will be better than the sum of the whole. If we talk about "Stonecutter at $5", "Stonecutter at $6",... and consider each of their effects, sure, they can gain two $3's or two $4's, but are then a $2 card in your deck, oh well, and the gain effect is limited to X Y Z. But really, we have a lot more choice than that. If we could buy "Stonecutter for $7" then "Stonecutter for $2" through to "Stonecutter for $6" were also options, which is a subtlety that I think putting them into other lists would obfuscate.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2013, 07:08:55 pm »
0

The points about not segmenting the cards into multiple prices because it misrepresents what the card is capable of (all the effects at different price points) is a really good one. Calling $5 Stonemason a single card is a misrepresentation, you are all right about that. But I think calling it a $2 card is a misrepresentation as well.
One notable thing about putting cards at every price is that the combined effect of the card will be better than the sum of the whole. If we talk about "Stonecutter at $5", "Stonecutter at $6",... and consider each of their effects, sure, they can gain two $3's or two $4's, but are then a $2 card in your deck, oh well, and the gain effect is limited to X Y Z. But really, we have a lot more choice than that. If we could buy "Stonecutter for $7" then "Stonecutter for $2" through to "Stonecutter for $6" were also options, which is a subtlety that I think putting them into other lists would obfuscate.

Right, WW and HME mentioned this, and it's true. The question is: will we get a better idea of the overall strength of Stonemason by a) ranking it in several price classes and then forming a composite in our heads, or b) forming a composite image in our heads and then comparing it to the $2s.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2013, 07:21:19 pm »
+2

The points about not segmenting the cards into multiple prices because it misrepresents what the card is capable of (all the effects at different price points) is a really good one. Calling $5 Stonemason a single card is a misrepresentation, you are all right about that. But I think calling it a $2 card is a misrepresentation as well.
One notable thing about putting cards at every price is that the combined effect of the card will be better than the sum of the whole. If we talk about "Stonecutter at $5", "Stonecutter at $6",... and consider each of their effects, sure, they can gain two $3's or two $4's, but are then a $2 card in your deck, oh well, and the gain effect is limited to X Y Z. But really, we have a lot more choice than that. If we could buy "Stonecutter for $7" then "Stonecutter for $2" through to "Stonecutter for $6" were also options, which is a subtlety that I think putting them into other lists would obfuscate.

Right, WW and HME mentioned this, and it's true. The question is: will we get a better idea of the overall strength of Stonemason by a) ranking it in several price classes and then forming a composite in our heads, or b) forming a composite image in our heads and then comparing it to the $2s.
I don't think this is a relevant question, and we won't get a very good idea of the overall strength of stonemason either way.
I'm failing to understand the relevance of BV or Conspirator (you can just evaluate these cards for what they do with on gain and play effects, the effects are fixed). I would love to see Peddler on the $2 and $4 list.
How are these effects more fixed than that of stonemason? Conspirator gives you $2 with or without cantripping... dependent on what you've played so far this turn, which is dependent on what is on the board. BV gains you a card costing up to 5... which absolutely depends on what's on the board. Stonemason bgives you extra paying extra for it... the strength of which is entirely dependent on the board.

The biggest point is the one Tables is making. The lists aren't some kind of buying guide, they're a very general gauge of the usefulness of different cards. Breaking them up by cost isn't at all about which card I would rather buy for a certain amount of money, it's just a way of grouping them. We happen to choose this because of a loose connection between price and power level, but it is a mostly arbitrary choice.
Furthermore, portraying the lists as a buying guide is I think mostly hurtful, as virtually every board has an exception, because you have to build a strategy which revolves around the set of cards rather than buying a collection of good cards.

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2013, 07:26:18 pm »
+1

Is there a reasonable other way to split up the cards? Maybe for the next edition of the list, we should do a "rank the villages" and "rank the gainers" or "rank the terminal draw" or "rank the alt-vp" or something.

That seems like it would be hard to split up, but could be interesting.
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