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Author Topic: Overpay cards and the best cards lists  (Read 76334 times)

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ycz6

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2013, 12:59:05 am »
0

If you have a Village and a Worker's Village in the same kingdom the only thing you are adding with a WV purchase is +1 Buy for an additional coin.    You are "overpaying" your Village in order to add a Buy.  They are very different benefits at very different costs.  Stonemason is no different.
Well, if we wanted to be as thorough as possible, we could have one list for each price point. That is, one list containing all cards costing $2 or less, one list containing all cards costing $3 or less, and so on, and we would rank all the cards at every price point. So Village and Worker's Village would both be on the "$4- Dominion Card Ranking."

Obviously this is a terrible idea in practice, and the entire point of this thread is figuring out how to best summarize the information from these inflated lists. I'm on the side of listing the overpay cards on every list, since I think that's the most useful thing to do, and I don't have any moral objections to comparing a card with the number 3 in a little coin on it to a card with a number 5 in a little coin on it.

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werothegreat

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2013, 01:12:24 am »
0

Your right parenthesis is outside your URL box, ycz6.

I'm going to agree with Robz that we should just rank the overpay cards by their given cost.  Otherwise it would just be ridiculous.  $3 and $4 Masterpiece would obviously be at the bottom of their lists, and then it would slowly crawl up.  Better to just factor everything into the card and put it on one list.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2013, 01:17:53 am »
+1

Border Village doesn't have a weird price.

Grand Market has a bit of a weird price, but its weird price is unambiguously $6+.

Peddler has a weird price.  I have no doubt that the most common price paid for a Peddler is $0, but what on Earth could it have meant to compare Peddler with Curse and Copper?  Edge cases aside, we would unanimously rank them Peddler > Copper > Curse.

Duchess usually isn't paid for.  In some ways it is like a Prize or like Madman/Mercenary/Spoils.  But sometimes you do buy it.  Crucially, it is one of your buy options when you have at least $2.

So of these cards, the only one that I agree really challenges the cost framework is Peddler.  With just one exception, you make do.

Doctor doesn't have a weird price. It costs $3. If you pay more for it, something interesting happens. Still, it's a $3 card, and it can be compared logically and intuitively to other $3 cards. Like Lookout. I think it's better than Lookout, one reason being its overpay thing, but yeah, they are both $3 cards.

Firstly, I've already stated that I feel like Doctor ought to be ranked as a $3 card.  Similarly Herald as a $4 card.

However, what myself and a few others have argued in this thread is that there was a reason for ranking by cost.  Cost tells you what the competition is. 

I have $3 to spend, what will I get? I could get Masterpiece, but Masterpiece is almost always a stupid purchase when I only have $3.  Likewise, even with $3, I doubt I'd want a Stonemason.  Alright, I'll buy a Silver.

Next hand.  I have $6.  I have four compelling options now.  I could buy a Gold.  Or I could buy a Masterpiece, overpaying by $3 to gain three Silvers.  Or I could buy Stonemason, overpaying by $4 to get two Smithies.  Or finally, I could buy a Border Village and take a Smithy with it.

Notice that when I had more money to spend, suddenly Masterpiece and Stonemason became more attractive options.  Border Village didn't do that, it had a fixed cost.

A player doesn't rack her brain choosing between Masterpiece and Silver for $3, but rather choosing between Masterpiece and Gold for $6.

Maybe this is some "how is your brain wired?" sort of thing. I see Masterpiece, a $3 card, and I say how good is it compared to other $3 cards? Pretty bad, well, except I can do this overpay thing that's sort of nice, and I would want to do that in X, Y, and Z situations, meaning on average here's how good it is, relative to other $3 cards. I still say its overpay component is an aspect of an otherwise $3 card.

I think of it differently.  I think, "I have $3.  On average, which of these cards is a better buy?"  In that case, Masterpiece is a terrible card compared to other cards.  Alternatively, if I have $6, Masterpiece might look like a pretty good buy in comparison to other $6 cards.  Yeah it depends on the board and yo deck and all, but this is still the way I look at these rankings, and it's why I don't think it's a fair comparison to rank Masterpiece with the other $3s when you'd pretty much never buy it at that price.


I'm going to agree with Robz that we should just rank the overpay cards by their given cost.  Otherwise it would just be ridiculous.  $3 and $4 Masterpiece would obviously be at the bottom of their lists, and then it would slowly crawl up.  Better to just factor everything into the card and put it on one list.

I agree with that (though I don't think it's really that ridiculous to put them on multiple lists) but I think the cards should be put on the list corresponding to the price where they are most likely to be purchased.  For masterpiece, that has to be at least $5, probably $6+.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 01:20:25 am by eHalcyon »
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Just a Rube

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #78 on: June 18, 2013, 01:51:32 am »
+1

I agree with that (though I don't think it's really that ridiculous to put them on multiple lists) but I think the cards should be put on the list corresponding to the price where they are most likely to be purchased.  For masterpiece, that has to be at least $5, probably $6+.
How should that be determined? Stats or first principles? Do we even have ready access to stats for that? And do we include all-gains or just buys (e.g. I swindle your $3 into a masterpiece)?
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hockeysemlan

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #79 on: June 18, 2013, 08:35:17 am »
+3

I read the whole thread now and my 2 cents as a non-writer at this forum would be:

Isn't it weirder that we allow only-victory kingdom cards, such as Duke, in the rankings? I mean they are goals I reach for in a certain kingdom, very rarely something I use to improve my deck. How can it help beginners to include them in a "buy-guide-ranking-sortathing"? Same thing with the cursers alywas coming so high up in the rankings. Yes, they are always good game-changing cards - ignoring a curser is almost always a disaster- but in those quite rare kingdoms when cursers are easy to get rid off, the cursers become even more awful than a down-nerfed Scout.. I mean Sea Hag is "make your opponent discard a card".. In my rankings cursers comes a bit down than the average because of this matter. 

I mean with all this that not only "over-pay"- cards are tricky to rate. If we go for sorting by price Stonemason cost 2, no more no less, that is not up for discussion even. I would gladly see a ranking on other permissions but if not- to argue about this is quite silly. They ARE what they cost, not what you pay for them.

(Still an interesting thread, I must say- you workdealyers)
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #80 on: June 18, 2013, 08:38:55 am »
+1

Border Village doesn't have a weird price.

Grand Market has a bit of a weird price, but its weird price is unambiguously $6+.

Peddler has a weird price.  I have no doubt that the most common price paid for a Peddler is $0, but what on Earth could it have meant to compare Peddler with Curse and Copper?  Edge cases aside, we would unanimously rank them Peddler > Copper > Curse.

Duchess usually isn't paid for.  In some ways it is like a Prize or like Madman/Mercenary/Spoils.  But sometimes you do buy it.  Crucially, it is one of your buy options when you have at least $2.

So of these cards, the only one that I agree really challenges the cost framework is Peddler.  With just one exception, you make do.

Doctor doesn't have a weird price. It costs $3. If you pay more for it, something interesting happens. Still, it's a $3 card, and it can be compared logically and intuitively to other $3 cards. Like Lookout. I think it's better than Lookout, one reason being its overpay thing, but yeah, they are both $3 cards.

Firstly, I've already stated that I feel like Doctor ought to be ranked as a $3 card.  Similarly Herald as a $4 card.

However, what myself and a few others have argued in this thread is that there was a reason for ranking by cost.  Cost tells you what the competition is. 

I have $3 to spend, what will I get? I could get Masterpiece, but Masterpiece is almost always a stupid purchase when I only have $3.  Likewise, even with $3, I doubt I'd want a Stonemason.  Alright, I'll buy a Silver.

Next hand.  I have $6.  I have four compelling options now.  I could buy a Gold.  Or I could buy a Masterpiece, overpaying by $3 to gain three Silvers.  Or I could buy Stonemason, overpaying by $4 to get two Smithies.  Or finally, I could buy a Border Village and take a Smithy with it.

Notice that when I had more money to spend, suddenly Masterpiece and Stonemason became more attractive options.  Border Village didn't do that, it had a fixed cost.

A player doesn't rack her brain choosing between Masterpiece and Silver for $3, but rather choosing between Masterpiece and Gold for $6.

The problem I see here that it ignores the fact that you frequently "overpay" to get a card you need. For example, you're likely not just deciding between Masterpiece and Gold for $6, but also Wharf for $5 and Sea Hag for $4. You can "overpay" to get Wharf if that's what you need at the time; you just don't get a bonus benefit for overpaying. If you are going to put Masterpiece on the $6+ list, you probably also have to put Wharf (and every other $5 card, etc.), as ycz6 suggests.
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theory

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #81 on: June 18, 2013, 08:17:01 pm »
+2

But Wharf isn't a better card when you pay more for it.

Suppose you had an overpay card that cost $2 that was -1VP.  And suppose that for each $1 you overpaid, you gained 1 VP token.  What list would you put this in, and how would you rank it? 

Presumably it is by far the best out of all cards that cost $2.  But it is only better than other $2's in the sense that Gold is a better card than Silver.  Is that fair?  Shouldn't we really be wondering whether this card is better than Gold, rather than wasting our time comparing it to Haven?

FWIW, though, I've been convinced that the overpay cards belong on their price point list and nowhere else.  Just seeing if there are other alternatives.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2013, 08:24:42 pm »
+1

But Wharf isn't a better card when you pay more for it.

Suppose you had an overpay card that cost $2 that was -1VP.  And suppose that for each $1 you overpaid, you gained 1 VP token.  What list would you put this in, and how would you rank it? 

Presumably it is by far the best out of all cards that cost $2.  But it is only better than other $2's in the sense that Gold is a better card than Silver.  Is that fair?  Shouldn't we really be wondering whether this card is better than Gold, rather than wasting our time comparing it to Haven?

FWIW, though, I've been convinced that the overpay cards belong on their price point list and nowhere else.  Just seeing if there are other alternatives.

What argument convinced you of that?  The counterargument you present is basically why I'd rather see the overpay cards against other expensive cards.
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Qvist

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2013, 09:37:49 pm »
+8

Ok. I've read this for a while and thought about that a bit. hockeysemlan made a good point and I'm going to summarize my thoughts in the following.

- This isn't the list of the cards with the best openings.
- This isn't the list of cards with the best on-play effect (IGG, Border Village, Any Alt VP).
- This isn't a buy priority list if you have $X to spend (Duchess, Peddler)

This is more a rating of the cards and its general strength - and more important - general impact on the board.
How does the presence of this card changes my strategy? Stronger cards have a bigger effect and weaker cards are more ignorable.
It makes no sense to divide a card into several effects and rate them individually, just because you get no answer to that question.
This isn't of course an easy task, but we managed to that well in the past and some cards already are veeery occasional and hard to rank, for example Trading Post which can be huge on a 5/2, but sub-par otherwise, or ranking Duke or Horn of Plenty on the $5 list is really hard too.

Of course this might change with more experience after playing with Guilds, but I suspect we shouldn't change our approach here and rank those cards based on their actual cost.
If someone is going to buy Masterpiece for $3 because it well end up high on the $3 list (just an example) this is his fault and I'm going to say it again: This isn't a buy priority list if you have $X to spend. If you don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of a card, then this list won't help at all. That's why I found it important from the start to give some sentences along the line to tell everyone why it's ranked where it's ranked, to at least understand the position and not just give a plain rating. Some of you said before I started this thing, that it's not necessary, but I felt it was, just from the beginning and many appreciated that.

Also, on a side note. Stonemason is a $2 cost just ruleswise. Salvaging it gives you $2 and even if you overpay for it with a Haggler in play, you have to take a Copper. Overpaying doesn't change the cost of the card.

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2013, 05:50:37 am »
0

I've thought about doing lists by category instead of price, but that is actually quite hard.

The least of the problems is comparing cards at different price points, that's doable, like comparing Sea Hag to Witch. You just have to take the price into account. Is Sea Hag a better $4 than Witch is a $5?

The main problem is that there are so many crossovers. If we're looking at "terminal drawers", how do you compare a card which' main function is to draw with a card which also attacks? How do you compare Smithy to Ghost Ship?

So even if we do define categories with strict definitions, there will be cards which do a lot of things and don't fit very well, while they're still a good card.

The only "solution" is just to create a list with all cards at all price points and compare them against each other. Good luck with that. And if you're done, you haven't even began to solve Dominion. Is Hoard a better $6 than Hamlet is a $2? Who knows?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2013, 09:49:17 am »
0

Next hand.  I have $6.  I have four compelling options now.  I could buy a Gold.  Or I could buy a Masterpiece, overpaying by $3 to gain three Silvers.  Or I could buy Stonemason, overpaying by $4 to get two Smithies.  Or finally, I could buy a Border Village and take a Smithy with it.

Or you could get Witch because it happens to be a better option for you than Gold. Or Market because you need a +buy more than anything else.  Or maybe you have to get a Gardens for some reason.  Or any number of cards that cost less than $6 and don't have an overpay effect.  I'm sure the constituents of this forum could come up with an edge case for every possible card.  Grand Markets is a weird case, too.  You're often "overspending" for it by not playing coppers that are in your hand.  If you're thinking of the lists as "I have $X to spend, what can I buy for $Y <= $X," then (as someone else said) you'd have to create a cumulative ranking list of cost <= $X for all $X.  And we'd probably all agree that's not what the list is for.  You wouldn't play by laying down all your money, counting it as $X, going to the "Best Cards at Cost $X$ list and choosing the highest.

The overpay effect simply adds to the utility of the card when considering buying it.  You have to pay more for that utility, but that's just part of the dynamics.  It doesn't change the cost of the card.  It is something that you would take into account when raking it against other cards, and it can be considered both a strength and a weakness (in the case of Masterpiece.. it's priced at $3 because of its overpay ability, but you would hate to gain it from a Swindler or Haggler, or anyway except buying with the option to overpay).
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Witherweaver

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2013, 10:07:19 am »
0

But Wharf isn't a better card when you pay more for it.

Suppose you had an overpay card that cost $2 that was -1VP.  And suppose that for each $1 you overpaid, you gained 1 VP token.  What list would you put this in, and how would you rank it? 

Presumably it is by far the best out of all cards that cost $2.  But it is only better than other $2's in the sense that Gold is a better card than Silver.  Is that fair?  Shouldn't we really be wondering whether this card is better than Gold, rather than wasting our time comparing it to Haven?

FWIW, though, I've been convinced that the overpay cards belong on their price point list and nowhere else.  Just seeing if there are other alternatives.

Well not exactly Gold, because then you've paid $6 for a Duchy.  And for $5 you gain 2 VP, which is worse than other options and probably only viable in some rare edge cases, and you could have just bought a Duchy.  At $7 you get 4VP and that could actually be useful.  So maybe you should compare it to King's Court~~.  Otherwise, it's actually only viable to buy at $10 or more (or $13 or more in Colony games).

In which case, you'd probably agree it's a pretty limited $2 card.  It's only real use is when you have a lot of extra money or an awkward $7 hand late.  The cases when you can pay $50 and get 47 VP are pretty rare, so that would hurt the utility of the card.  This would make you value it less at $2, or at any price, really, since you could easily shift the base card so it is $2+x, +x-1VP tokens, you may overpay for 1VP token for each $1 overpaid. 

So compare that card $2+x, +x-1VP tokens, overpay for 1VP token each $1 overpaid for different x.  While this is equivalent in terms of VP/cost, the cards are still different depending on what x is.  When x=0 (your card) you have different options than when x=4, even though those options may not be any good.  (I.e., you don't have the option to spend $3 for 0VP when x=4).  The base cost does change the mechanics and so it should be taken into account. 
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2013, 11:57:38 am »
+2

I demand a Duchess category. It's the only card that's price is "You bought a Duchy." It's the best card with the price "You bought a Duchy"!

I dunno, Duchy might be better. Depends on the kingdom.

Obviously Scout is the best card with the price "You bought a Duchy" (when Haggler is in play).
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AdamH

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #88 on: June 19, 2013, 02:33:15 pm »
+10

Some observations:

I've skimmed over a majority of this discussion. I apologize if something I say has already been mentioned. Consider it my agreeing with you.

Perhaps some of us have lost sight of what we're actually talking about. AFAIK nobody asked Qvist to do these rankings, he thought it would be a good idea and did the work of collecting data from everybody, compiling it, computing all the relevant statistics he could think of, AND putting together a write-up of EVERY card given those statistics. The write-ups are thoughtful and insightful not only for people new to the game (I recommend the lists in my Dominion video tutorial series for people who want a starting point for which cards are more likely to shape the course of a game) but also for experienced people to say "RAWR I THINK SCOUT SHOULD BE HIGHER!" and express the different ways the view the game. The different ways we can interpret the data, agree/disagree with it, and still all end up agreeing that it's a great thing goes to show the awesome thing that Qvist has put together and put so much work into.

I'm worried that he might be put into a position where no matter what he decides to do with the +cost cards, some people will think it's wrong. I'm not saying that's happening because there's a lot of text here that I haven't read, but none of us are entitled to any of this. It's Qvist's decision what to do and pretty much no matter what he does, I'll probably support it and continue to try and find good conclusions to make from it, as I have done in the past.

If you want my opinion: card costs, what these categories attempt to distinguish by, are a "cost to entry." What does it take to get these cards? If you can do more to get them then sometimes you get a benefit on top of that (this goes beyond overpaying, like Fool's Gold doesn't work well unless you have a lot of them. That means that $2 and 1 Buy is not the "cost to entry" for FG, it's higher. Chapel is different. We already take that into account in the rankings). I don't understand how overpaying is any different. Of course cards like Masterpiece and Peddler are going to be awkward, but Qvist is already able to paint the broad strokes just by compiling stats from tons of people with different opinions, and he does a good job of going a step further buy inferring situational cards by high deviation and other stuff.

I think the list works, and we should let it continue to work and show nothing but support.

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #89 on: June 19, 2013, 02:43:38 pm »
+1

I agree with what you're saying AdamH. The only thing I would add, and I hope pretty much everyone here more or less agrees is... it doesn't really matter. So, I think it should just be with their actual cost (e.g. masterpiece at 3), but if it's different... I won't really care that much. This is all mostly for fun and of course an entirely free and voluntary service.

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #90 on: June 19, 2013, 03:59:15 pm »
0

If you include a $2 SM, a $3 SM, a $4 SM etc...

Everyone gets what they want.  If you only want to recognize a $2 SM then you get ignore the others.  Very simple really.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #91 on: June 19, 2013, 04:01:28 pm »
+4

If you include a $2 SM, a $3 SM, a $4 SM etc...

Everyone gets what they want.  If you only want to recognize a $2 SM then you get ignore the others.  Very simple really.

I don't want multiple costs of SM on different lists. It is, in fact, my least favorite option.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #92 on: June 19, 2013, 04:03:48 pm »
0

Then ignore it.

You're kinda taking your ball and going home.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #93 on: June 19, 2013, 04:10:33 pm »
+2

Then ignore it.

You're kinda taking your ball and going home.

But the goal isn't to include like absolutely everyone's preferred state of affairs. Some people may want Variant cards and Fan cards included. I do not, and will argue emphatically that they should not be included.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #94 on: June 19, 2013, 04:12:09 pm »
0

Then ignore it.

You're kinda taking your ball and going home.

I was simply correcting your false statement "everyone gets what they want." Perhaps I'm the only one who feels that way, which I doubt, but even it I was, it still wouldn't be correct. However, I would cede my position if there was overwhelming support for that method. But again, I doubt there is. I'm not trying to be unreasonable here. And really, my feelings aren't all that strong on the issue in general.

I can see the argument for putting SM at various price points, but the argument for putting it at multiple price points is much less compelling and I find it to be actually somewhat misleading to do so since as its been said, you are no longer representing any particular dominion card.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #95 on: June 19, 2013, 04:15:44 pm »
0

Why are you choosing your piece of mind over fellow Dominion Strategy members and Dominion lovers by choosing not to ignore 16-20 extra cards.  Unfortunately, my situation doesn't allow me to "sacrifice" for you. 

Seems selfish.

Edit: post in response to robz888 comment.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 04:17:09 pm by Hockey Mask »
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #96 on: June 19, 2013, 04:21:50 pm »
0

I like fish.

I don't.  It tastes nasty and salty.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #97 on: June 19, 2013, 04:24:39 pm »
0

I like fish.

I don't.  It tastes nasty and salty.
Then nobody should be allowed fish.  ;)
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #98 on: June 19, 2013, 04:25:34 pm »
+1

I like fish.

I don't.  It tastes nasty and salty.

<-- His name is Sarge.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #99 on: June 19, 2013, 04:30:07 pm »
+1

No matter what happens, some people aren't going to be happy. The fundamental problem is that the "best cards" lists aren't well defined. We never agreed on what information it's really meant to convey. If the way you rank the cards is based on how often you buy them at that price point compared to other cards at the same price point, putting Masterpiece at $3 seems pointless. If you rank cards by their overall strategic value, splitting up a card makes no sense. Then there's the issue that if you put a card on all the lists, some people are going to think about "splitting up" the value of the card, and some people are going to rank the full card on each list, which leads to even more confused rankings.
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