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Author Topic: Overpay cards and the best cards lists  (Read 45671 times)

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AJD

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #250 on: June 24, 2013, 01:04:28 am »
0

Regardless, that's the best way of framing it I've heard so far.

Thanks!

Quote
That would help me figure out how to rank Stonemason amongst the $2 cards.  I still don't think there's any good way of doing it for Masterpiece at $3 though.

Masterpiece
Treasure : $3
$1
---
When you buy this, you may buy any number of Silvers for $1 each.

Like Border Village, it's a card whose play effect is much weaker than what you pay for it; you buy it at the inflated price because when you do, you get other cards for cheap. Border Village gets you only one other card, but you get it for free and you can choose what; Masterpiece can only get you Silver, and you still have to pay for it, but you can get many of them.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #251 on: June 24, 2013, 01:18:32 am »
0

Regardless, that's the best way of framing it I've heard so far.

Thanks!

Quote
That would help me figure out how to rank Stonemason amongst the $2 cards.  I still don't think there's any good way of doing it for Masterpiece at $3 though.

Masterpiece
Treasure : $3
$1
---
When you buy this, you may buy any number of Silvers for $1 each.

Like Border Village, it's a card whose play effect is much weaker than what you pay for it; you buy it at the inflated price because when you do, you get other cards for cheap. Border Village gets you only one other card, but you get it for free and you can choose what; Masterpiece can only get you Silver, and you still have to pay for it, but you can get many of them.

But Border Village we are ranking at that inflated price, whereas Masterpiece we are not?  This appears to be an argument for ranking Masterpiece at a high price.
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AJD

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #252 on: June 24, 2013, 01:46:32 am »
0

Regardless, that's the best way of framing it I've heard so far.

Thanks!

Quote
That would help me figure out how to rank Stonemason amongst the $2 cards.  I still don't think there's any good way of doing it for Masterpiece at $3 though.

Masterpiece
Treasure : $3
$1
---
When you buy this, you may buy any number of Silvers for $1 each.

Like Border Village, it's a card whose play effect is much weaker than what you pay for it; you buy it at the inflated price because when you do, you get other cards for cheap. Border Village gets you only one other card, but you get it for free and you can choose what; Masterpiece can only get you Silver, and you still have to pay for it, but you can get many of them.

But Border Village we are ranking at that inflated price, whereas Masterpiece we are not?  This appears to be an argument for ranking Masterpiece at a high price.

The inflated price for Masterpiece is $3. It's a $3 copper with an on-buy bonus, just as Border Village is a $6 Village with an on-gain bonus.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #253 on: June 24, 2013, 03:22:47 am »
0

Regardless, that's the best way of framing it I've heard so far.

Thanks!

Quote
That would help me figure out how to rank Stonemason amongst the $2 cards.  I still don't think there's any good way of doing it for Masterpiece at $3 though.

Masterpiece
Treasure : $3
$1
---
When you buy this, you may buy any number of Silvers for $1 each.

Like Border Village, it's a card whose play effect is much weaker than what you pay for it; you buy it at the inflated price because when you do, you get other cards for cheap. Border Village gets you only one other card, but you get it for free and you can choose what; Masterpiece can only get you Silver, and you still have to pay for it, but you can get many of them.

But Border Village we are ranking at that inflated price, whereas Masterpiece we are not?  This appears to be an argument for ranking Masterpiece at a high price.

The inflated price for Masterpiece is $3. It's a $3 copper with an on-buy bonus, just as Border Village is a $6 Village with an on-gain bonus.

No, I'm with Peebles on this.  With Stonemason, I can accept the comparison with Talisman.  When you play Talisman, you get an effect that occurs when you buy something.  When you buy Stonemason, you get a similar effect that lets you "buy" something at that time.  Sure.

But I just don't see a similar comparison for Masterpiece.  Saying that $3 is the inflated price doesn't work because then you are ignoring the overpay portion of the cost.  That was abstracted away for Stonemason as a separate "buy", but you can't do that with Masterpiece.

Or put another way -- comparing Stonemason with Talisman was clever because they actually are pretty similar.  But BV and Masterpiece are not similar at all.  You have to twist it so much in the comparison, it just doesn't work.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #254 on: June 24, 2013, 03:38:19 am »
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The best way of comparing overpay cards with Border Village is to think of Border Village as a $3 Village with an option "When you buy this, you may overpay by $3.  If you do, gain a card costing up to $5".  In other words, as a Village with an on-buy Feast effect if you overpay.  I know, this isn't exactly the same.  Border Village doesn't let you cheap out and take just the BV for $3, the real BV activated on-gain, the real BV goes nicely with trash-for-benefit, and the real BV gains something costing less than BV rather than up to $5.  But those all feel like minor changes which could have gone either way based on which wording Donald felt best captured the main idea.
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AJD

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #255 on: June 24, 2013, 10:30:29 am »
0

But I just don't see a similar comparison for Masterpiece.  Saying that $3 is the inflated price doesn't work because then you are ignoring the overpay portion of the cost.  That was abstracted away for Stonemason as a separate "buy", but you can't do that with Masterpiece.

Why not? You're "buying" Silver for $1 each.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #256 on: June 24, 2013, 11:07:37 am »
0

But I just don't see a similar comparison for Masterpiece.  Saying that $3 is the inflated price doesn't work because then you are ignoring the overpay portion of the cost.  That was abstracted away for Stonemason as a separate "buy", but you can't do that with Masterpiece.

Why not? You're "buying" Silver for $1 each.

Too many hoops. Too many differences from the existing cards.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 11:08:48 am by eHalcyon »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #257 on: June 25, 2013, 05:58:25 pm »
+2

By the way, it is possible to rank *all* the cards; I just did all the kingdom cards plus Colony, Province, Duchy, Estate, Platinum, Gold, Silver, Copper, and Curse. Yeah, that's right, I'm stickin' to the Ruins, Shelters, Potion, Prizes, and upgrade-into cards. Of course, this took me a couple of hours, so it's really not reasonable for a large group - would need something like a comparer app, where you vote one over the other, etc. But maybe I will give out my 'power rankings' at some point, then watch as I end up revising them a lot by the time September rolls around.

Just a Rube

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #258 on: June 25, 2013, 09:17:07 pm »
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By the way, it is possible to rank *all* the cards; I just did all the kingdom cards plus Colony, Province, Duchy, Estate, Platinum, Gold, Silver, Copper, and Curse. Yeah, that's right, I'm stickin' to the Ruins, Shelters, Potion, Prizes, and upgrade-into cards. Of course, this took me a couple of hours, so it's really not reasonable for a large group - would need something like a comparer app, where you vote one over the other, etc. But maybe I will give out my 'power rankings' at some point, then watch as I end up revising them a lot by the time September rolls around.
So did Scout beat Curse?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #259 on: June 25, 2013, 09:23:53 pm »
+5

By the way, it is possible to rank *all* the cards; I just did all the kingdom cards plus Colony, Province, Duchy, Estate, Platinum, Gold, Silver, Copper, and Curse. Yeah, that's right, I'm stickin' to the Ruins, Shelters, Potion, Prizes, and upgrade-into cards. Of course, this took me a couple of hours, so it's really not reasonable for a large group - would need something like a comparer app, where you vote one over the other, etc. But maybe I will give out my 'power rankings' at some point, then watch as I end up revising them a lot by the time September rolls around.
So did Scout beat Curse?

I honestly buy Curse more than I buy Scout.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #260 on: June 25, 2013, 10:00:06 pm »
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By the way, it is possible to rank *all* the cards; I just did all the kingdom cards plus Colony, Province, Duchy, Estate, Platinum, Gold, Silver, Copper, and Curse. Yeah, that's right, I'm stickin' to the Ruins, Shelters, Potion, Prizes, and upgrade-into cards. Of course, this took me a couple of hours, so it's really not reasonable for a large group - would need something like a comparer app, where you vote one over the other, etc. But maybe I will give out my 'power rankings' at some point, then watch as I end up revising them a lot by the time September rolls around.
So did Scout beat Curse?
It did, but well, none of the basic cards is really credible. Colony and Platinum, maybe. But a game without silver, without silver being an option ever, is just really different. And the same goes for all those. So while I HAVE rankings for them, they don't really mean anything.
By the way, it is possible to rank *all* the cards; I just did all the kingdom cards plus Colony, Province, Duchy, Estate, Platinum, Gold, Silver, Copper, and Curse. Yeah, that's right, I'm stickin' to the Ruins, Shelters, Potion, Prizes, and upgrade-into cards. Of course, this took me a couple of hours, so it's really not reasonable for a large group - would need something like a comparer app, where you vote one over the other, etc. But maybe I will give out my 'power rankings' at some point, then watch as I end up revising them a lot by the time September rolls around.
So did Scout beat Curse?

I honestly buy Curse more than I buy Scout.
So do I, but a lot of that is because the scout pile is rarely in danger of running out, and the rest is because curse is worse than scout (Ambassador).

Schneau

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #261 on: June 26, 2013, 07:41:44 am »
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According to CouncilRoom, on Isotropic Peebles bought Scout more than Curse, given availability. Not sure bout WanderingWinder, since he played too many games and the page won't load :(
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Davio

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #262 on: June 26, 2013, 09:50:19 am »
+1

We could just include the overpay cards in every list upwards from their listed cost.

So Stonemason at $2, $3, $4 etc, up to and including $7. :)
I mean, what do we do with Peddler? Buying Peddler at $0 is great! Buying Peddler at full price, not so much.
But when you're using Remodel or something you're glad it costs $8 again.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #263 on: June 26, 2013, 01:43:50 pm »
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According to CouncilRoom, on Isotropic Peebles bought Scout more than Curse, given availability. Not sure bout WanderingWinder, since he played too many games and the page won't load :(

If you don't condition on availability, I probably buy Curse more than Sea Hag!
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shMerker

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #264 on: July 10, 2013, 01:52:36 pm »
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This thread taught me that in Dominion, "cost" has a technical definition that is subtly different from what is usually meant by "cost" in other contexts, including the discussion of Dominion Strategy.
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