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Author Topic: Overpay cards and the best cards lists  (Read 76318 times)

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Powerman

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #225 on: June 21, 2013, 10:45:26 pm »
0

I think the problem with the LGG vs. IGG (or any of the like arguments) is the lack of variability.  When given 2 natural points, it is natural to group with either.  I think a more apt comparison is:

Ill-Gotten Gains
$5 Treasure
Worth $1
When you play this, you may gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
______________
When you gain this, each other player gains a Curse.

vs.

Partial-Gotten Gains
$2+ Treasure
Worth $1
When you play this, you may gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
______________
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, your opponents gain a confusion; your opponents gain a -1/3 VP chip per $1 you overpay.

At times, it is better, at times worse.  But, where should this card get grouped?  $5?  $8?

I've addressed this concern in the X-Piece thought experiment.  PGG is not a good parallel though.  I believe it would have to be ranked at $3 because I expect that will be most common.  It is the cheapest you can get it and still inflict damage on opponents, in the form of a Confusion card.  The -VP is gravy, and probably people would be willing to overpay more to cause more damage, but yeah, it gets tough from that point on.  It will still almost never get purchased at $2, like poor NGG, so it shouldn't be on the $2 list.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that.  Look at the difference in Cultist and Witch.  Cultist has to have a trash bonus and lets you play more Cultists, and people STILL consider Witch to be better than Cultist because of the negative VP effects of curses.  I'd suspect higher priced PGG is better than lower priced PGG.

And what about for Border Village:

Border Village
Action 6
+1 Card
+2 Actions
When you gain this, gain a card costing less than this.

vs.

South of the Border Village
Action 3+
+1 Card
+2 Actions
When you buy this, you may overpay for it.  If you do, you may buy a card costing up to $5 for $2 less than it's normal cost.

What price do you rank SotBV with?  Still on the 6+ list?  Or 5?  4?  3?  I think it has to be $3.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #226 on: June 21, 2013, 11:00:08 pm »
0

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that.  Look at the difference in Cultist and Witch.  Cultist has to have a trash bonus and lets you play more Cultists, and people STILL consider Witch to be better than Cultist because of the negative VP effects of curses.  I'd suspect higher priced PGG is better than lower priced PGG.

And what about for Border Village:

Border Village
Action 6
+1 Card
+2 Actions
When you gain this, gain a card costing less than this.

vs.

South of the Border Village
Action 3+
+1 Card
+2 Actions
When you buy this, you may overpay for it.  If you do, you may buy a card costing up to $5 for $2 less than it's normal cost.

What price do you rank SotBV with?  Still on the 6+ list?  Or 5?  4?  3?  I think it has to be $3.

Higher priced PGG is certainly better than lower priced PGG.  My point was that it would still get purchased at $3.  A junker is still a junker.  It would also get purchased at higher costs, but $3 is worth it too.  I mean, I won't argue too hard about where it should be.  $3?  $5?  Dunno.  But I would say that this $2+ card would not be worth getting at $2, so it should NOT be on the $2 list.

Your phrasing for SBV is a bit confusing.  So I overpay any amount, then I can buy something else?  So if I want a $5 card, I overpay $1 (total cost now $4) and then I can buy a $5 for $3 instead.  So I pay total a total of $7?  Probably not quite what you intended, but I get your drift.

And yeah, I would agree -- SBV would have to cost $3.  The reason is that it is STILL WORTH GETTING at $3.  At $3, it is just a regular old village.  Maybe you say the gain is mandatory, so if you bought $3 SBV then you have to gain a $2 or something.  Still, it would be pretty commonly worth getting at that price.

The difference betweeen this and cards like Masterpiece or LGG is that they are NOT worth getting at their base cost.  That is the key thing here.



Man, I'd vote against that. It's just too big and too unweildy a list, and I'd end up having no idea where to compare cards.

If we're using the overpaying mechanic as a reason to to ditch cost-based card segregation entirely, I'd instead suggest more limited lists by function - "rate the villages", "rate the terminal draw", "rate the cursers", "rate the cards with on-buy/on-gain abilities", etc.

Also cool.  But there would be cards on multiple lists, which people seemed not to like wrt overpay cards.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 11:01:11 pm by eHalcyon »
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #227 on: June 21, 2013, 11:03:40 pm »
+3

$3 Masterpiece
$4 Masterpiece
$5 Masterpiece
$6 Masterpiece

$2 Stonemason
$3 Stonemason
$4 Stonemason
$5 Stonemason
$6 Stonemason

$3 Doctor
$4 Doctor
$5 Doctor
$6 Doctor

$4 Herald
$5 Herald
$6 Herald

Pretend we got a large expansion after all.
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Powerman

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #228 on: June 21, 2013, 11:30:56 pm »
0

$3 Masterpiece
$4 Masterpiece
$5 Masterpiece
$6 Masterpiece

$2 Stonemason
$3 Stonemason
$4 Stonemason
$5 Stonemason
$6 Stonemason

$3 Doctor
$4 Doctor
$5 Doctor
$6 Doctor

$4 Herald
$5 Herald
$6 Herald

Pretend we got a large expansion after all.

So $7 Masterpiece doesn't exist?  What about the $13 Masterpiece I purchased the other game with a Tac deck?  It seemed pretty strong.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #229 on: June 22, 2013, 03:36:16 am »
0

$3 Masterpiece and Stonemason would come at the bottom of the $3 cards.

Mind you, I think Stonemason is a really interesting card, and not just some pseudo junk card that's only good for trashing coppers and helping with late game greening. I don't even think it will be the worst $2.

I wish Masterpiece was more than just a copper.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #230 on: June 22, 2013, 06:55:20 am »
+1

$3 Masterpiece
$4 Masterpiece
$5 Masterpiece
$6 Masterpiece

$2 Stonemason
$3 Stonemason
$4 Stonemason
$5 Stonemason
$6 Stonemason

$3 Doctor
$4 Doctor
$5 Doctor
$6 Doctor

$4 Herald
$5 Herald
$6 Herald

Pretend we got a large expansion after all.

So $7 Masterpiece doesn't exist?  What about the $13 Masterpiece I purchased the other game with a Tac deck?  It seemed pretty strong.
If it is important to you we can include a $13 Masterpiece with the other $13 cards.
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Qvist

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #231 on: June 22, 2013, 07:06:05 am »
+2

$3 Masterpiece
$4 Masterpiece
$5 Masterpiece
$6 Masterpiece

$2 Stonemason
$3 Stonemason
$4 Stonemason
$5 Stonemason
$6 Stonemason

$3 Doctor
$4 Doctor
$5 Doctor
$6 Doctor

$4 Herald
$5 Herald
$6 Herald

Pretend we got a large expansion after all.

You forgot $2P Stonemason, $3P Stonemason, $4P Stonemason, $5P Stonemason, $6P Stonemason and $8P Stonemason.

Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #232 on: June 22, 2013, 07:31:06 am »
0

You can do whatever you want with potions. I don't think many pay much attention to that list anyway.
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ashersky

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #233 on: June 22, 2013, 07:50:47 am »
+2

You can do whatever you want with potions. I don't think many pay much attention to that list anyway.

Fixed.  Qvist does all the work.  They're his lists.  Damn right he can do whatever he wants.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #234 on: June 22, 2013, 08:09:08 am »
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I thought they were provided for the community.  My bad.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #235 on: June 22, 2013, 08:12:50 am »
+3

I thought they were provided for the community.  My bad.

I guess my point is, if you dislike what Qvist is doing, for free, out of the kindness of his heart, don't complain.  You are free to do your own.  But don't be surprised that fellow f.dsers rally to defend him.

This whole argument feels like the "entitled to iso" thread.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #236 on: June 22, 2013, 08:27:35 am »
0

I appreciate everyone's contributions to the site. What Qvist provides must be very time consuming and is something beyond my compiling capability.  That said, I am sure you agree I have a right to give feedback and input on what he is providing.  I hope Qvist and you do not misconstrue my intent to improve the lists as ungratefulness.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #237 on: June 22, 2013, 10:17:22 am »
0

I appreciate everyone's contributions to the site. What Qvist provides must be very time consuming and is something beyond my compiling capability.  That said, I am sure you agree I have a right to give feedback and input on what he is providing.  I hope Qvist and you do not misconstrue my intent to improve the lists as ungratefulness.
It's all about tone. When you say, 'you can do what you want with potions', it implies that you feel you are in a position to give orders, and out of the kindness of your sweet heart, you're letting him make his own decision this one time here. It comes across as demanding of a service that you are getting for free, and which even if he is doing for other people, they have no right to be demanding of. Now, suggestions are fine, yes. "I don't care about what you do with potions" would have been a much friendlier way to phrase what I think is the same sentiment anyway.

In any case, I assume you didn't actually mean to be bossy, and things just came out wrong - benefit of the doubt.

Hockey Mask

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #238 on: June 22, 2013, 10:30:03 am »
+1

It's all about tone...

and out of the kindness of your sweet heart
I see now this going nowhere.  Excuse me if I offended anyone.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #239 on: June 22, 2013, 04:46:58 pm »
0

You don't like thinking of it that way because, hey, you could have bought a more expensive card for that amount.  But I say you just take that into account when you give it a rank.  You say that's hard to do, but I say you're really already doing pretty similar tradeoff type estimations when you ranked all the other cards. 

The reason why I don't like this argument (that you can just take into account MP at higher costs) is that this is tantamount to saying that we could very well rank IGG on the $2 list.  Why can't you just take into account that it costs more?  As Robz earlier demonstrated when he began trying the LGG exercise, it's just hard.  The trade-off estimation for cost is something that we've attempted to abstract away by the very method of dividing the lists according to cost.

But IGG does not have a variable cost.  The "effective cost" of MP is defined on an infinite (okay, effectively infinite) domain.  There is no reason to put IGG on the $2 list, while there is a reason to put Stonemason on the $2 list (namely, it doesn't belong on any other list.  The presence of Stonemason on any particular list of given cost does not tell you its strength as a $2 card that allows you to overpay any amount, because you've fixed the amount of overpay.  So then you say, well, you take that into account when you put it on whatever list you decided to put it on, and then I say that's my point, you take the variable overpay amount into account when you decide how good of a card it is.

Quote
If it's going to go on a list other than $3, it has to go on all of them.  Otherwise you're picking arbitrarily and inaccurately.

I disagree with this.  The choice is not neccesaarily arbitrary nor inaccurate.  In the example with Masterpiece, I have provided reasoning again and again for why I feel $6+ is the best place for it.  I could do the same for Stonemason.  I CANNOT do it for Doctor, which is why I concede there.  And Herald I would put on $4 anyway, so there's no disagreement there.  As far as accuracy goes, I am willing to bet that Masterpiece would be bought a negligible number of times at $3, and also very rarely at $4.  So, $5 or $6+?  I don't know, you got me there.  But either one is more accurate that $3.

In the end, your argument seems to be "rank Masterpiece on the $3 list because that is what it says on the card".  But my argument is, yes, that's what it says on the card, but that is not the cost at which it is bought.

I can't see how Masterpiece being on the $5 or $6+ list is more accurate than $3.  You seem to be considering all cases of gaining a card other than when you by them during your buy phase (or Black Market) an edge case, but I think there are way too many of those cases to be considering them all edgey.  Masterpiece at $3 plays differently than Masterpice at $5, even if "you'd never by it at $3," as you say.  But it matters.  For Swindler, for Forager, for Forge, for every trash-for-benefit card, for possible three-piling scenarios, etc.  It's cost is simply $3, and that matters during the game. 

Peddler has a cost of $8, but no one has ever bought a Peddler for $8 (okay, maybe it's happened about as often as Halley's comet comes).  It's most often bought for $2 or $0.  But it really matters that it's an $8 card.. it's very important in a non-trivial amount of cases.  Heck, the article on dominionstrategy about Peddler specifically keyed in that it's $8 price point was a big deal for trashing-with-cost-consideration scenarios.  Now even moreso with Butcher and Stonemason (turning a Peddler into two Grand Markets is cool). 

I don't agree with your premise that "that number on the card" is just a technicality.  It's an important part of the mechanics of the game.


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Awaclus

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #240 on: June 22, 2013, 05:52:38 pm »
0

But IGG does not have a variable cost.  The "effective cost" of MP is defined on an infinite (okay, effectively infinite) domain.  There is no reason to put IGG on the $2 list, while there is a reason to put Stonemason on the $2 list (namely, it doesn't belong on any other list.
It doesn't belong on any other list, but it doesn't belong on the $2 list either. It doesn't really matter which list it goes to, you will always have to rate it differently from the other cards, since for the other cards you just look at how powerful they are, but with Stonemason, you have to take into account the cost/power ratio.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #241 on: June 22, 2013, 10:30:44 pm »
+2

It's all about tone...

and out of the kindness of your sweet heart
I see now this going nowhere.  Excuse me if I offended anyone.

It's almost as though reading comprehension isn't one of your stronger skills.

----

I don't really have an opinion here other than "Qvist is the benevolent dictator of these lists; if you think it ought to be done differently, no one, including Qvist, is stopping you."
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #242 on: June 23, 2013, 12:47:41 am »
+2

But IGG does not have a variable cost.  The "effective cost" of MP is defined on an infinite (okay, effectively infinite) domain.  There is no reason to put IGG on the $2 list, while there is a reason to put Stonemason on the $2 list (namely, it doesn't belong on any other list.
It doesn't belong on any other list, but it doesn't belong on the $2 list either. It doesn't really matter which list it goes to, you will always have to rate it differently from the other cards, since for the other cards you just look at how powerful they are, but with Stonemason, you have to take into account the cost/power ratio.

Stonemason : Talisman :: Border Village : Haggler?
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #243 on: June 23, 2013, 12:52:45 am »
0

(That is to say, Stonemason's cost/power ratio is really always constant: cost is $2, power is Stonemason itself plus one-time on-buy Talisman effect. Just like Border Village's cost is $6, power is Village plus free up-to-$5 gain.)
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #244 on: June 23, 2013, 10:47:48 am »
0

(That is to say, Stonemason's cost/power ratio is really always constant: cost is $2, power is Stonemason itself plus one-time on-buy Talisman effect. Just like Border Village's cost is $6, power is Village plus free up-to-$5 gain.)

It isn't a Talisman, you can get two different cards.
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heron

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #245 on: June 23, 2013, 11:55:57 am »
0

heron's comprehensive card list plan:

Participants give each card a rating from 0-100 based on what percentage of the time they think it is a good idea to gain that card.
Then, Qvist averages out the ratings with some method or another, and publishes his lists of cards by cost. Overpay cards are not posted in lists above their cost, but there is instead a note like the following:
          47. Outpost
                If doctor was on the $5 list, in would be here.
          46. Witch
When Qvist is done with all of his rankings, he publishes the full list, and people make their own rankings of villages or terminal drawers or whatever. You could compare the list to the councilroom %Gain list. Whatever you want to do.

Note that this keeps the benefits of a full 1-205 list, (no concerns with overpay cards, can compare cross-cost) but removes the unwieldiness of ordering 205 cards.
As far as I can tell, the only way you would be unhappy with this method is if you would rather rank the cards instead of rate them, but you can still sort of do that, just rate them as 0-2-4-6-8 etc.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #246 on: June 23, 2013, 12:12:38 pm »
0

Participants give each card a rating from 0-100 based on what percentage of the time they think it is a good idea to gain that card.

I generally like your plan, but this metric is not what you want to use to determine how good a card is. There are cards you want a lot, because they help, but maybe they don't help *that much*, and there are other cards you don't want that often, but are very very strong when they are useful.

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #247 on: June 23, 2013, 12:58:17 pm »
0

Participants give each card a rating from 0-100 based on what percentage of the time they think it is a good idea to gain that card.

I generally like your plan, but this metric is not what you want to use to determine how good a card is. There are cards you want a lot, because they help, but maybe they don't help *that much*, and there are other cards you don't want that often, but are very very strong when they are useful.
What about a rating from 0-100 based on how often they win a game because they gained it and their opponent didn't? Gaining a Pearl Diver is often a good idea, but rarely makes people win or lose games so it would be pretty low. Gaining a Bridge is not always a good idea, but when it is, it's often a mistake that costs you the game if you ignore it, so it would be pretty high but not among the top cards.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 01:01:33 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #248 on: June 23, 2013, 02:35:24 pm »
0

(That is to say, Stonemason's cost/power ratio is really always constant: cost is $2, power is Stonemason itself plus one-time on-buy Talisman effect. Just like Border Village's cost is $6, power is Village plus free up-to-$5 gain.)

It isn't a Talisman, you can get two different cards.

True enough, and only Actions. But you see what I mean?
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #249 on: June 23, 2013, 11:36:54 pm »
0

(That is to say, Stonemason's cost/power ratio is really always constant: cost is $2, power is Stonemason itself plus one-time on-buy Talisman effect. Just like Border Village's cost is $6, power is Village plus free up-to-$5 gain.)

It isn't a Talisman, you can get two different cards.

True enough, and only Actions. But you see what I mean?

And it also lets you do it for cards that cost more than $4.

Regardless, that's the best way of framing it I've heard so far.  That would help me figure out how to rank Stonemason amongst the $2 cards.  I still don't think there's any good way of doing it for Masterpiece at $3 though. :P
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