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Author Topic: Ambassador Hell  (Read 4139 times)

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Elyv

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Ambassador Hell
« on: October 21, 2011, 10:20:04 am »
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Oh, Ambassador. You are an amazing card, but I don't entirely understand how to play you(nor do I like playing you). That combination of features lead to this, one of the strangest games of dominion I've ever played.

After opening with the obligatory pair of ambassadors, I was originally planning on going for a normal game and eventually getting golds or something. Munchausen, however, had other plans, and after he grabbed the third ambassador I became too afraid of falling behind in the ambassador war and grabbed more ambassadors. The result was a game where getting to anything above 4 was a challenge(the first card costing more than 4 bought was my hoard on turn 32), and a game that was hilarious to play once, but would probably be horrible to ever play again.

Random thoughts:
-Warehouse is not very good with ambassador since you end up down a card. It became a much better card for me around turn 30 when I stopped trying to win the ambassador war and just started to try to buy and play expensive cards.
-Bureaucrat and Saboteur are terrible cards, but probably would've been great in this game. I remember seriously considering getting a saboteur sometime in the first half of the game and not doing it; in retrospect, that was definitely a mistake.
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guided

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2011, 11:25:15 am »
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Bureaucrat is not a terrible card! People just don't tend to notice the situations where it's good. Also it's rarely (if ever) a truly great card. It's not flashy.
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Biderman

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 12:05:19 pm »
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Opening with 2 Ambassadors is not usually a great move. On this board I would have likely opened Ambassador/Fishing Village. My initial strategy would be to Ambassador away my Estates and Coppers a quickly as possible, unless I could buy a Silver, Fishing Village, or Gold only if I do not. See here for an example. I should have started buying provinces a little earlier, but my first half dozen turns are more or less optimal.
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jonts26

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 12:15:18 pm »
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http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Ambassador

Ambassador/Ambassador ranks third highest on the cards to pair with ambassador in the opening, behind only tourney and caravan. Now this doesn't mean it's always the right move to open double ambassador, but I would argue the opposite of what you said. It usually IS a great move.
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Biderman

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 12:23:03 pm »
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http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Ambassador

Ambassador/Ambassador ranks third highest on the cards to pair with ambassador in the opening, behind only tourney and caravan. Now this doesn't mean it's always the right move to open double ambassador, but I would argue the opposite of what you said. It usually IS a great move.

That's interesting, and (now that I tan the math), I see that Ambassador/Ambassador is actually a lot stronger than I had thought.

OP: I retract my statement about opening Ambassador/Ambassador, although I would still recommend you glance at my game, as I feel I played it rather well, even if I did not have two :D
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guided

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 12:31:55 pm »
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I will say what I usually say: Ambassador/Ambassador and Ambassador/Silver (getting a 2nd Ambassador at turn 3 or 4) are roughly equal in strength as opening tactics. I feel the 2nd tends to be slightly stronger on average (though it depends on the board), but other good players have disagreed with me in the past. The reason Ambassador/Silver shows up as a much weaker opening in the stats is that there's no way to tell from that chart whether those openers went on to get a second Ambassador (when appropriate).
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chwhite

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 12:57:05 pm »
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I personally prefer Ambassador/Ambassador because it's huge if you can hit on Turns 3 and 4, though Amb/Silver might often be better in games where there's not much potential for chaining or there's a specific $5 you need RIGHT NOW. 

My favorite Ambassador opening, of course, is Amb/Potion when Apothecary is around.
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ackack

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 01:17:53 pm »
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I'm an Ambassador/Throne Room fan.
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guided

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 01:29:22 pm »
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I personally prefer Ambassador/Ambassador because it's huge if you can hit on Turns 3 and 4
Absolutely swearing to comment no further on the subject ITT (after the last thread that involved an extended discussion), it's not nearly as huge as people seem to assume. You're ahead by 1 play of Ambassador (if you don't collide at 3/4 and if you don't drop one to turn 5), and it's possible and even likely that the opponent who opened A/S/A will catch up to the same number of plays within a few turns, since you are more likely than they are to have collisions at turn 5/6.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 02:14:08 pm »
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i gave a guy some ambassador hell in a recent game. 

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/20/game-20111020-191955-ed364456.html

with a rare unfortunate 5/2 start and a couple poor draws early on, i fell really far behind quite fast. i decided to start running a double tactician, using a kc/kc to send three cards his way every turn and to moneylend some copper for virtual money. 

i lost track of points and probably dragged it on a turn or two longer than it should have.  it was still an interesting game though, i think. if i would have played it a little different or started my engine a little earlier i might have been able to pull it out.  and props to simfarm for not only putting up with it, but for having some good conversation during the game.
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Kirian

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2011, 03:15:16 pm »
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47 turns???  That may be the longest game of Dominion ever.
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Karrow

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 06:41:31 pm »
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47 turns???  That may be the longest game of Dominion ever.
  47turns on a resign.  Should have been even longer.

I think I'd have switched to Bishop at some point and just tried to win on vp tokens.

I was in a game once where I was the only one to buy Ambassador and I still managed to empty the copper supply pile.  Yea, Kings Court was involved, but it was still a fun achievement.
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Elyv

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Re: Ambassador Hell
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2011, 08:31:08 pm »
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OP: I retract my statement about opening Ambassador/Ambassador, although I would still recommend you glance at my game, as I feel I played it rather well, even if I did not have two :D
From skimming the game, your play seemed fine. Your opponent, however, was buying a menagerie on turn 3 and buying steward over ambassador and then never trashing with the steward. The main reason to go for double ambassador is because you're assuming the other person is getting ambassadors as well and ambassador snowballs pretty hard once you start to fall behind. If they don't, I guess one might be better? I don't know, that situation does not come up very frequently for me.
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