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Author Topic: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!  (Read 12781 times)

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iMystic

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Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« on: October 21, 2011, 05:19:21 am »
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See it yourself! http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/21/game-20111021-005235-f8bd0eaa.html

Here s a combo to get 20 VP chip each turn, CONSISTENTLY.
The key cards are: King's Court, Golem, Goons, Scheme. (thanks Hinterlands!)
The basic formula is:

1x King's Court
Golem (1 or more)
2x Scheme
4x Goons

How the engine works (when it s been successfully built)
(starting cards in hand: King's Court, Golem, ?,?,? )
1. King's Court -> Golem -> play all 2x Scheme, 4x Goons
2. Buy 5 cards. Yes, buy those coppers! => Get 20 VP chip
3. With the effect of 2x Scheme, return King's Court and Golem to top of deck
(next cards in hand: King's Court, Golem, ?,?,? )
4. Rinse and repeat ~

How to build:
This engine is easy to build, very feasible.
Just buy the action cards needed in formula, no more, no less. You can buy more than 1 Golem though.
More action cards = you may miss 1 scheme, then you can't return KC and golem to topdeck, means the engine will be stopped.

Other variant that can gain more (24 vp chip each turn) is with Outpost:
1x King's Court, Golem, 2x Scheme, 3x Goons, 1x Outpost

Here is a game demonstration from me (Outpost variant):
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/21/game-20111021-005235-f8bd0eaa.html
(in the end I even buy curses, because the copper is out of stock)
Score: 332 - 24

Strengths and Weaknesses
(assuming this engine is already built successfully)

This engine can be stopped with these cards:
- Minion => discard KC and Golem, bye bye consistent hand.
- Saboteur / Swindler => if it hits Scheme, then only one card can be brought back to top of deck (either KC or Golem)
- Possession => it s obvious that I don't even need to explain
- Masquerade => if the enemy give action card to break the engine

This engine is immune to those attacks:
- Any cursing attacks (Witch, Mountebank, Torturer, etc). Just accept it. Even if you get all the curses, it doesn't matter. -10 VP is nothing.
- Any shit-giving attacks (Ambassador, etc). Accept it. Even if your deck get fat to 100+ cards, it doesn't matter!
- Pirate Ship / Thief / Noble Brigade. Your gold/silver is trashed? Opponent gain more Pirate ship token? Worry not, even if your opponent can buy 2 colonies each turn, it s no threat at all for this engine.
- Any "discard down to 3 cards" (Militia, Goons, etc). Just needs 2 cards in hand for this combo to be continued: KC and Golem.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are also many possible variants with the consistent KC-Golem-Scheme build.
So long as you follow the rule:

1x KC, Golem, 2x Scheme, 4x [action cards you want to play]

Just imagine how powerful it is!
1x KC, Golem, 2x Scheme, 4x Torturer
1x KC, Golem, 2x Scheme, 4x Saboteur
1x KC, Golem, 2x Scheme, 4x Possession

There are still so many possibilities for those cards that I still don't know,
So,, have fun mixing everyone ~ XD

Thanks for reading.
Any feedbacks are welcome ^_^

Sorry if this combo has been posted before. Is it? >.<
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 08:20:41 pm by iMystic »
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DStu

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2011, 05:43:16 am »
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Seems really strong. Runs in 12 turns in your sample, if this is the usual case, it's tough to fight if you can't 3 pile. Probably this is the only real problem here, you have a quite weak deck until the combo runs.

1 Point:
Quote
This engine is immune to those attacks:
... Masquerade ... Accept it. Even if your deck get fat to 100+ cards, it doesn't matter!

If there is King's Court, and there is Goons, you might not be so happy having a Masquerade on the board.
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iMystic

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 05:52:04 am »
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Seems really strong. Runs in 12 turns in your sample, if this is the usual case, it's tough to fight if you can't 3 pile. Probably this is the only real problem here, you have a quite weak deck until the combo runs.

1 Point:
Quote
This engine is immune to those attacks:
... Masquerade ... Accept it. Even if your deck get fat to 100+ cards, it doesn't matter!

If there is King's Court, and there is Goons, you might not be so happy having a Masquerade on the board.

Yes quite weak deck before the combo runs.
Hmm, true, but that s not really a serious problem.
Well, if Goons - Masquerade kicks in before the combo runs, it might slow down the engine building process.
But after the engine has been built, they re no threat.

Also, Torturer stack is no threat, because you can just take the curses.
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DStu

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 05:55:20 am »
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Quote
Well, if Goons - Masquerade kicks in before the combo runs, it might slow down the engine building process.
But after the engine has been built, they re no threat.

When KC-KC-Goons-Masquerade kicks in, you're not building anything anymore...
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iMystic

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 06:08:09 am »
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Quote
Well, if Goons - Masquerade kicks in before the combo runs, it might slow down the engine building process.
But after the engine has been built, they re no threat.

When KC-KC-Goons-Masquerade kicks in, you're not building anything anymore...

OH SHI... I forgot about that one... True that.
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biopower

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 09:31:01 am »
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This is a 4-card combo, which means that (although impressive), it's not going to be often that we see this kingdom actually occur.
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guided

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 09:54:47 am »
+1

This is a 4-card combo, which means that (although impressive), it's not going to be often that we see this kingdom actually occur.
Assuming uniform random selection, 3-card combos are in the realm of "you might see this one time in your life, but you probably won't notice it, you forgetful lug!" 4-card combos are more like "somebody, somewhere, might see this some day, if we're lucky and Dominion becomes the most popular game on earth."

The KC/Masquerade pin is slightly more troubling because any attack that reduces the opponent's hand to 3 cards can stand in for the 3rd card in the combo.

I will add that I would not be surprised to see more pin possibilities now with the introduction of Scheme.
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DStu

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 10:09:05 am »
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But I think it's more of a 3 card combo. The combo is KC-Golem-Scheme, which gives you the possibility to play 4 actions every turn. Given 7 additionalcards uniformly at random, you will might often find something you would like to deliver every turn.

Just curious on the 4-card-combo probability (ignoring Young Witch). How many cards are there now? 157? Should then be 1:2.783.924 . Probably we don't need to let Dominion become the most popular game on earth, but it's true that most people will not see such a combo...
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Deadlock39

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 10:18:17 am »
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KC + Scheme alone seems like it has a pretty good chance of setting up some sort of combo.   If you can build a KC+KC+card drawing, and manage to KC a scheme somewhere in your turn, you can put your draw engine right back. 

If you just have KC+KC+Scheme, you can keep those three cards on top until your other stuff comes around.  Terminal card draw is probably the best thing to pair with it, but a lot of other things would probably work.

I doubt its is much more powerful than other super combos, but it is a pretty good combo without fancy Golem tricks.

Copernicus

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 12:48:20 pm »
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Golem/Scheme is a combo -- it almost gurantees playing a strong action every turn (only a Golem/Scheme/action hand prevents it).  Something like Montebank or Witch or Goons, for example.

King's Court/Scheme is a combo -- it just needs to get to a second King's Court, a second Scheme, and a third action.  It will then play that action three times every turn while returning all those cards back for another hand.
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fencingmonkey

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2011, 01:33:43 pm »
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I like what you're suggesting here but it's going to take forever to get going. KC is $7, Golem needs a potion (that you won't be doing anything with after you buy the Golem), Scheme is the only cheap card here and it's probably the one you want to buy last because the +Buy/+Coin you're getting from Goons is going to help you there. But I worry that by the time you can put it all together AND draw KC/Golem at the same time a BM deck will have stomped you.

I also like the idea of trying to break this down into different combos and seeing how strong they are and what substitutions they can gain. We can pretty much assume that "KC+" is always going to make any combo we find stronger; seeing Golem + Scheme is the new part :)
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pst

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 01:34:32 pm »
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Nice combo!

See it yourself! http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/21/game-20111021-005235-f8bd0eaa.html
This engine is immune to those attacks:
[...]
- Any shit-giving attacks (Ambassador, Masquerade, etc). Accept it. Even if your deck get fat to 100+ cards, it doesn't matter!

Well, if they give you action cards it can break your engine.
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iMystic

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2011, 08:38:35 pm »
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I like what you're suggesting here but it's going to take forever to get going. KC is $7, Golem needs a potion (that you won't be doing anything with after you buy the Golem), Scheme is the only cheap card here and it's probably the one you want to buy last because the +Buy/+Coin you're getting from Goons is going to help you there. But I worry that by the time you can put it all together AND draw KC/Golem at the same time a BM deck will have stomped you.

I also like the idea of trying to break this down into different combos and seeing how strong they are and what substitutions they can gain. We can pretty much assume that "KC+" is always going to make any combo we find stronger; seeing Golem + Scheme is the new part :)

I ve tried it few times and the average turn needed to set up is 16 turn.
Quickest: 11 turn, longest: 20 turn (curse game)
It is quite tricky on the buying order and play order. What works best is prioritize getting King's Court - Scheme combo, then move to golem. Keep scheme and King's court on topdeck, until King's Court meets Golem. :D

And I learned that it is much slower than KC-Wharf +Goons+Scheme. It s not funny, it can just draw the whole deck every time, it doesn't even need golem. And it s very fast and easy to build. It s also able to end pile quick.

Golem/Scheme is a combo -- it almost gurantees playing a strong action every turn (only a Golem/Scheme/action hand prevents it).  Something like Montebank or Witch or Goons, for example.

King's Court/Scheme is a combo -- it just needs to get to a second King's Court, a second Scheme, and a third action.  It will then play that action three times every turn while returning all those cards back for another hand.

True!
KC/Scheme = free +1 card +2 action each turn, and 1 more constant action to play

Nice combo!

See it yourself! http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/21/game-20111021-005235-f8bd0eaa.html
This engine is immune to those attacks:
[...]
- Any shit-giving attacks (Ambassador, Masquerade, etc). Accept it. Even if your deck get fat to 100+ cards, it doesn't matter!

Well, if they give you action cards it can break your engine.

Oh yes I didn't think of that @.@
Thanks, it s updated. :)
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2011, 01:03:53 am »
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I agree that the real combo here is KC + Scheme + Something. And if that something happens to be Goons, Golem is perfect for not caring how big your deck is.
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timchen

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2011, 04:08:33 pm »
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Another situation that the combo will break: if you draw 5 actions in hand. It is not that severe though; just you won't be able to play the 4 goons. Also extremely unlikely to happen.
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fencingmonkey

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2011, 12:36:21 pm »
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And I learned that it is much slower than KC-Wharf +Goons+Scheme. It s not funny, it can just draw the whole deck every time, it doesn't even need golem. And it s very fast and easy to build. It s also able to end pile quick.

Nice! Except that it shouldn't work. Scheme is "if you discard" which means it doesn't apply to duration cards like Wharf, or cards that are currently modifying a duration card like KC. It would be super-powerful to be able to snag your KC/Wharf back into your hand after throwing it off which is why Scheme doesn't allow it. You could probably make it work; you'd need to have an expiring Wharf and a KC that was played on something else, either Goons or Scheme, which makes it a bit more finicky.
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DG

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2011, 09:29:39 pm »
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I'd run some simulations for Golem+scheme+action decks even before I saw this thread and they are quite strong in a simple form. I tested a number of variations against jack-of-all-trades+scheme, which is devilishly fast and faster without the golem, and golem+scheme+monument was a winner. A number of attack variations will be stronger as long as the kingdom doesn't contain a robust defence, such as the jack.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 09:42:53 pm by DG »
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Zaphod

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Re: Goons engine: Consistent 20 VP Chip each turn!
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2011, 01:48:03 pm »
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And I learned that it is much slower than KC-Wharf +Goons+Scheme. It s not funny, it can just draw the whole deck every time, it doesn't even need golem. And it s very fast and easy to build. It s also able to end pile quick.

Nice! Except that it shouldn't work. Scheme is "if you discard" which means it doesn't apply to duration cards like Wharf, or cards that are currently modifying a duration card like KC. It would be super-powerful to be able to snag your KC/Wharf back into your hand after throwing it off which is why Scheme doesn't allow it. You could probably make it work; you'd need to have an expiring Wharf and a KC that was played on something else, either Goons or Scheme, which makes it a bit more finicky.

It works on a Wharf or King's Court that you played the turn before, that is still in play.  Isotropic differentiates duration cards as "old" or "new" for this reason.

A few days ago, I played a game with Scheme, Inn and Wharf in the set.  By the tenth turn, I was able to put an Inn and two Wharves back on top of my deck.  I managed to get a two-Province turn before my opponent resigned.  It was fun.  I wish I'd been allowed to finish it.
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