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Author Topic: Card Photos  (Read 44448 times)

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zporiri

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2013, 11:21:06 am »
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feodum seems like a big winner with guilds. with stonemason you can trash a feodum and gain 5 silvers. you can over pay a lot for masterpiece and gain a lot of silver. then with that high money density, you will be able to over pay for masterpiece again in the future, gaining even more silver. this seems like the best non-trasher feodum-enabler yet (with perhaps the reaction of trader in a hand with many buys).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2013, 11:21:42 am »
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Am I misremembering, or is this the first "Gain a Gold" card that you don't have to jump through hoops for? Bag of Gold has you jumping through hoops to get it, and all the others I can think of (Treasure Map, Tunnel, Market Square) have you jumping through hoops to use them. Strange to finally have a card that just straight-up gains a Gold, especially after the Curses run out.

Governor?

Ah, nice. Thanks.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2013, 11:22:00 am »
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I guess I'll give my initial reactions.

Quote
Stonemason
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.

The on-play effect looks terribly weak. Compare it to Develop. You get worse cards and they don't get topdecked. I'm guessing it'll be most useful for turning a Gold into 2 Duchies or some other expensive cards into 2 copies of Silk Road, Gardens, etc. Turning a Familiar into two Vineyards could be cool.

The on-buy effect seems very powerful. If you get one early, hopefully those new awesome Actions will offset having the Stonemason in your deck.


I might disagree here.  Develop restricts you with gaining cards of a specific price.  This seems to be much more versatile.  You could probably use it to help build an engine by picking up a bunch of $5 and $4.  Border Village and Peddler seem like good targets. It would also seem to accelerate the greening phase, as you mentioned.
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liopoil

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2013, 11:23:30 am »
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oh man, stonemason on peddler to pick up 2 KC. 3-card combo, sure, but that's awesome. border village isn't bad either.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2013, 11:24:26 am »
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I guess I'll give my initial reactions.

Quote
Stonemason
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.

The on-play effect looks terribly weak. Compare it to Develop. You get worse cards and they don't get topdecked. I'm guessing it'll be most useful for turning a Gold into 2 Duchies or some other expensive cards into 2 copies of Silk Road, Gardens, etc. Turning a Familiar into two Vineyards could be cool.

The on-buy effect seems very powerful. If you get one early, hopefully those new awesome Actions will offset having the Stonemason in your deck.


I might disagree here.  Develop restricts you with gaining cards of a specific price.  This seems to be much more versatile.  You could probably use it to help build an engine by picking up a bunch of $5 and $4.  Border Village and Peddler seem like good targets. It would also seem to accelerate the greening phase, as you mentioned.

Border Village and Peddler are definitely good targets, I agree. But on most boards, you'd have to trash a Gold (or a Province) to gain $5 cards. That's a Gold you could have spent this turn!
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SirPeebles

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2013, 11:27:30 am »
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Well, I think there is a difference between choosing not to overpay, versus choosing to overpay by $0.
I don't get how you can overpay by 0.

a: "Hey, I bought a car for 20.000$"
b: "What? My car is exactly the same and I only payed 20.000$ instead of 20.000$"
a: "Really? You say I overpayed 0$ for my car? Oh man, sucks to be me..."

Makes sense to me, aside from why that person is upset about overpaying by $0.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2013, 11:28:12 am »
0

I guess I'll give my initial reactions.

Quote
Stonemason
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.

The on-play effect looks terribly weak. Compare it to Develop. You get worse cards and they don't get topdecked. I'm guessing it'll be most useful for turning a Gold into 2 Duchies or some other expensive cards into 2 copies of Silk Road, Gardens, etc. Turning a Familiar into two Vineyards could be cool.

The on-buy effect seems very powerful. If you get one early, hopefully those new awesome Actions will offset having the Stonemason in your deck.


I might disagree here.  Develop restricts you with gaining cards of a specific price.  This seems to be much more versatile.  You could probably use it to help build an engine by picking up a bunch of $5 and $4.  Border Village and Peddler seem like good targets. It would also seem to accelerate the greening phase, as you mentioned.

Border Village and Peddler are definitely good targets, I agree. But on most boards, you'd have to trash a Gold (or a Province) to gain $5 cards. That's a Gold you could have spent this turn!

Yeah but you're still turning your $3 Gold into $10.  And you can still buy something with the other three cards in your hand.  Imagine drawing Gold Gold Silver Stonemason Junk in a Penultimate Province situation.  You turn your choice of overpaying for a Duchy or buying the Province to put yourself in a losing situation into getting 3 Duchys to put your opponent into the Penultimate Province dilemma.
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brokoli

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2013, 11:37:07 am »
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feodum seems like a big winner with guilds. with stonemason you can trash a feodum and gain 5 silvers. you can over pay a lot for masterpiece and gain a lot of silver. then with that high money density, you will be able to over pay for masterpiece again in the future, gaining even more silver. this seems like the best non-trasher feodum-enabler yet (with perhaps the reaction of trader in a hand with many buys).
Stonemason : I think in practice, it's not so good (and I'm probably the most fervent defender of Feodum here). Stonemason can trash feodum but usually in a feodum game you don't want to trash more than 2 feodums.
Masterpiece : In a feodum game, you often have $7 or $8 to spend so yes, I think Masterpiece + Feodum is going to be great. But maybe for $8 you would prefer a province ?
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mameluke

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2013, 11:39:07 am »
+1

Similarly, trash a Platinum, gain two Provinces!
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Kirian

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2013, 11:43:04 am »
+1

Has anyone mentioned yet that Butcher, Baker, and Candlestick Maker are a combo?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2013, 11:47:29 am »
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Has anyone mentioned yet that Butcher, Baker, and Candlestick Maker are a combo?

How so?
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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2013, 11:55:06 am »
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but the most important question is: do these cards help to empty the supply in 3 turns? stonemason is the only one that might I think.

Baker could help, starting out with a coin token.
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Dsell

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2013, 12:09:54 pm »
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Reposting what I posted in the "wrong" thread initially:

Plaza looks terrific. So much flexibility there, although it'll require some coppers (or masterpieces) lying around in your engine.
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Schlippy

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2013, 12:11:53 pm »
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When you overpay for something and the cost with overpay is higher than 4, do you still gain a second copy with Talisman if the original cost was lower than 5?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2013, 12:17:10 pm »
+3

When you overpay for something and the cost with overpay is higher than 4, do you still gain a second copy with Talisman if the original cost was lower than 5?

Overpaying does not change the cost of the card.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2013, 12:20:52 pm »
+1

Without reading other posts...

Candlestick Maker -- Simple.  Looks like a decent $2.  Non-terminal, +Buy, and even a Coin token you can save.  I like it.  And of course, I like that Butcher, Baker and Candlestick Maker all have to do with coin tokens.  The other two cards with Coin tokens are Plaza and Merchant Guild... if only the Plaza were a Tub.

Stonemason -- Stonemason is a $2 card, but I expect it will often be bought for more than that.  It is actually really, really neat.  When you overpay for it, you actually effectively get +$ equal to what you overpaid and you effectively get 2 buys to boot.  Note that they don't have to be the same action card; they just need to be the same cost.

Question: Is it possible to overpay by $0?  For the other overpay cards, it doesn't work because you get no benefit unless you overpay at least $1.  But with Stonemason, you could still benefit if there are action cards costing $0, which is possible with cost reduction. 

I expect that "overpay" requires paying at least $1, in which case you would have to be careful with cost reduction not to reduce the card you want to mason down to $0.  Still, it could be a pretty powerful combo.  With ONLY a Quarry in play, you could get Stonemason and two $4s.  Cost reduction is doubly effective for Stonemason because it reduces the initial cost of Stonemason as well as the amount you need to overpay for any specific card.

Masterpiece -- I can't think of any realistic reasons why you would buy this for $3.  At $3, Silver is strictly better.  The only exception is when you want variety for some reason, but you'll want Silver anyway and it would be better to get this with an extra Silver for $4 rather than buying the Silver separately.  Outside of Gardens games, you'll probably never buy this for less than $5.  Even at $4 you will usually prefer having a Silver without an extra Copper.  At $5, it is a decent deal: 2 Silvers with an extra Copper tossed in.  Since overpay is on buy, you can still lose the Masterpiece to, for example, Trader.  Masterpiece+Trader could be very silly, especially with Feodum (and Feodum+Trader is already silly).

Someone speculated on something very similar to this earlier, and I criticized it.  I can't remember if it was exactly like this (in which case I was wrong) or if it was, like, a non-terminal +$2 action (in which case I stand by my original statement).

Advisor -- I quite like this card.  I submitted a very simlar card to the non-attack interaction contest of the MSDC:

#2 (tie) - Artificer by eHalcyon with 13 points (Clementine)
$5 - Action
+5 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand.  The player to your left chooses a card to discard from your hand, then the player to your right does the same.

With Artificer, you get the worst 3 of 5; with Advisor you get the worst 2 of 3.

I like Advisor, but I think it will be weak unless you get a deck of super high quality, where no particular discard hurts you.  It's big bonus is that it increases your hand size non-terminally.  Decks that rely on key cards will not be able to use this effectively without other support (e.g. Cellar).

Plaza -- simple village variant for the theme.  The Treasure discard is necessary so as not to make it superior to Bazaar.  This may be a tricky card to use optimally.  Villages want to be in engines.  Many engines will want to trash away all the Coppers; discarding the few high quality treasures in the deck would not be worth just one coin token.  But the drawback is ameliorated if you can draw the treasure back again.

Taxman -- the treasure discarder that fan card creators always think about!  This one keeps the power reasonable through two checks:
- it only hits players with more than 4 cards in hand;
- you have to trash a copy of the treasure, so it hurts you to target non-Copper treasures.

If that were all that it did, then probably this would be nothing more than a Copper trasher most of the time.  But it also has a delayed Mine effect, top-decking the gained treasure instead of putting it in your hand.  Thus it is not strictly superior to Mine.

This should be a pretty good engine card, I think.  Not sure.  Well, you replace Coppers with more efficient treasures, at the same time slowing down your opponent, sometimes quite significantly.  Making them discard Silver or Gold is pretty huge.

Merchant Guild -- On its own, this is sort of a restricted terminal Gold.  You get 2 buys, which means you can get up to 2 coin tokens.  But you can't spend those coin tokens until the next turn.  Maybe Merchant Ship is comparable in this respect?  And like Goons, multiple MGs can get you a massive coin token surplus.  Interestingly, that means that you could potentially play to a MG megaturn strategy. 

It would be more difficult than with Goons though.  With the latter, you go out in one giant blaze of glory, racking up huge points and draining 3 piles, probably massively lowering the quality of your deck by filling it with Coppers or Curses.  With MG, you can't exactly do that because the MG megaturn only gets you a crapton of money, not VP.  You then have to use the money... probably over the next several turns, putting together as much +Buy as you can to make use of all the coin tokens you now have.  Watchtower makes it easier. 

But yeah, I don't think MG will be all that effective unless you play multiples together, and/or have another reason to use every buy (Gardens, Watchtower, maybe Trader).

Soothsayer -- This is disappointing to me, because I don't think it really fits the theme of the expansion.  No coin tokens, no overpaying.  In every other expansion, the curser exemplified the theme.

Seems decent, not great.  Gaining Gold is nice, but it doesn't help you at all on the turn you play it AND it helps your opponents.  Interestingly, this is like Marauder's big brother.  Gain Gold vs. Spoils, opponents gain Curse vs. Ruins.  But I think Marauder is stronger because it doesn't help opponents when you play it, and you can always open with Marauder.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2013, 12:25:30 pm »
0

When you overpay for something and the cost with overpay is higher than 4, do you still gain a second copy with Talisman if the original cost was lower than 5?

Overpaying does not change the cost of the card.

To add to this, although we haven't seen the precise rules yet, Donald's answers suggest that you pay the list price as usual when you buy the card, and then as on-buy effect, you can spend extra for some effect.  The overpayment is distinct from the original payment, just like Min'ts trashing, Noble Brigand's "attack", or Farmland's upgrading.
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Schneau

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2013, 12:31:14 pm »
+4

Masterpiece -- I can't think of any realistic reasons why you would buy this for $3.  At $3, Silver is strictly better.  The only exception is when you want variety for some reason, but you'll want Silver anyway and it would be better to get this with an extra Silver for $4 rather than buying the Silver separately.  Outside of Gardens games, you'll probably never buy this for less than $5.  Even at $4 you will usually prefer having a Silver without an extra Copper.  At $5, it is a decent deal: 2 Silvers with an extra Copper tossed in.  Since overpay is on buy, you can still lose the Masterpiece to, for example, Trader.  Masterpiece+Trader could be very silly, especially with Feodum (and Feodum+Trader is already silly).

At $5, it compares to Cache. Is a Gold and 2 Copper better than 2 Silvers and a Copper? Probably about the same, maybe a bit better for Cache. Of course, Masterpiece has added flexibility that allows for it to be bought for more or less than $5.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2013, 12:32:20 pm »
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Quote
Taxman -- the treasure discarder that fan card creators always think about!  This one keeps the power reasonable through two checks:
- it only hits players with more than 4 cards in hand;
- you have to trash a copy of the treasure, so it hurts you to target non-Copper treasures.

If that were all that it did, then probably this would be nothing more than a Copper trasher most of the time.  But it also has a delayed Mine effect, top-decking the gained treasure instead of putting it in your hand.  Thus it is not strictly superior to Mine.

Also it specifies up to 3, not exactly 3.  Essentially you can put a Gold (Platinum) on top of your deck to force your opponent to discard a Gold (Platinum).  That's actually useful in those times when you draw 3 gold and a silver.  Or when you draw Gold/dead stuff.  It could just tip the edge in some kind otherwise uninteresting board where you're both just buying Gold and Provinces, both delaying your opponent's Province and evening out your next turn's money.
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Watno

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2013, 12:33:17 pm »
+1

awesome! sad it's the last time maybe :(
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SirPeebles

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2013, 12:37:44 pm »
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Plaza -- simple village variant for the theme.  The Treasure discard is necessary so as not to make it superior to Bazaar.  This may be a tricky card to use optimally.  Villages want to be in engines.  Many engines will want to trash away all the Coppers; discarding the few high quality treasures in the deck would not be worth just one coin token.  But the drawback is ameliorated if you can draw the treasure back again.

Ah, this is a good point.  In a strong enough engine, you'll be able to draw back that Silver or Gold you discarded, while keeping the coin token.
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MarkowKette

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2013, 12:38:55 pm »
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I think Taxman isn't as strong as it seems on the first glare:

yes the attack part is stronger than the one from cutpurse but it leads you to difficult decisions after the first phase of the game:
do i want to turn my silver into a gold not sure if the attack will hit? but if it hits i hurts more than losing only a copper..
and compared to mine: not getting the "upgraded" treasure in hand makes a huge difference, even though you have it top decked.

all in all i think this is a valuable card on many boards but quite ofter passable.

I really like Plaza for its flexibility but later in the game it will often just be a normal village if there is strong trashing going on.
A really nice card to set up an engine that needs an expensive card as early as possible (KC/Goons) but ceartainly not a power house itself.

Advisor on the other hand is a really swingy card. If one is able to get lots of advisors very fast (workshops, ironworks etc. ,even stonemason maybe) It could be easy to set up an engine that draws the whole deck, where the "you discard cards chosen by your neighbor" aspect doesnt hurt much, then this card is even a lot stronger than caravan.
But if you only can get a few of them i doubt its worth a buy. In most scenarios i can imagine the worst 2 of 3 cards help less than the best one of 3 and only slightly better than one card randomly drawn.
It's really good for cycling but you are in a big danger of missing that one really important card like Witch or Mounterbank before the next reshuffle, what in my opinion makes the better cycling also not worth it.
 


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eHalcyon

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2013, 12:42:36 pm »
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I see Merchant Guild having a Goons-esque megaturn with Watchtower present.  Build an engine that gives 40 buys, and then gain 400 coin tokens.  Of course, you can't spend the coin tokens the same turn, which is why you'd want to Watchtower away to Copper.
How about KC KC MG MG MG.  That could get pretty crazy too.  Just a thought.

MG is while in play, so that's not THAT great.  That would give you +$9, +9 Buys, every buy gets you 3 coin tokens.  But then you need to use all your buys to reap a lot of coin tokens, which is difficult unless you only buy cheap cards.

So MG really likes cost reduction, as it makes it easier to take advantage of every Buy.



Winners: eHalcyon for Advisor AKA Harbinger, and LastFootnote andwilk for Journeyman AKA Gatherer.

Advisor is closer to my original version, Artificer, really. :)


I think Taxman isn't as strong as it seems on the first glare:

yes the attack part is stronger than the one from cutpurse but it leads you to difficult decisions after the first phase of the game:
do i want to turn my silver into a gold not sure if the attack will hit? but if it hits i hurts more than losing only a copper..
and compared to mine: not getting the "upgraded" treasure in hand makes a huge difference, even though you have it top decked.

I think Taxman will be decently powerful, mostly for Copper trashing + Cutpurse effect.  The option to hit other treasures and the topdeck Mine effect is just icing.
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shMerker

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2013, 12:50:26 pm »
+2

I really like how Taxman doesn't use coin tokens or have an overpay but still fits in with sort of an implicit theme of doing something with your surplus. For instance if you draw it with $5 and there are no $4s or $5s you want, you can trash the silver for a devastating attack and have a gold on your next turn.

It reminds me of the way Treasure Map, Native Village, and Treasury all played into the "next turn" theme without using the Duration mechanic.
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MarkowKette

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Re: Card Photos
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2013, 12:53:20 pm »
0

I think Taxman will be decently powerful, mostly for Copper trashing + Cutpurse effect.  The option to hit other treasures and the topdeck Mine effect is just icing.

in my opinion a plain +3$ action-card is better than cutpurse in most cases, so if i take this into account
the trash a copper and cutpurse attack-effect alone would be a LOT worse than the effect of a moneylender so the topdecking mine
effect is to me what makes the card not be really bad
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