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Author Topic: I quit for the first time today...  (Read 6336 times)

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ashersky

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I quit for the first time today...
« on: June 11, 2013, 07:22:48 am »
0

At least, I think I did.

A quick recap: three players, key cards were Governor and...Possession.  I go full on Governor from 3rd position while the other two open Potion+X.  After some Mandarins and Bazaars for the both of them (and a turn 5 Possession by P1 and T7 Possession by P2), I've got 6 Governors and plenty of Golds.

At 2-2-2 province split, P1 plays a possession and buys a 3rd province.  As he possesses P2, he plays his possession, saying that I was on my way to win.  Granted, I probably was.  Still, I've never seen that kind of king making in a Dominion game before.  Not once on iso, surely.

So, P2 possesses me, plays my great hand in an okay manner, taking provinces 3 and 4.  I was annoyed at the king making, so I just said "gg" decided to resign and let them duke it out.  There was a province left, but the game just ended.

Did I "quit" instead of just resigning?  And was I out of line to be either irritated at king making or at resigning to let the two finish without me?
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Fabian

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2013, 07:29:01 am »
+1

So P1 makes an in-game play resulting in higher winning chances for him, and you call it king making and quit like a baby?

There must be some element to the story I'm missing here. Also there are 3 Provinces left, no?
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Lekkit

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2013, 07:43:38 am »
+3

Please, NEVER quit during a 3+p game. It results in a loss for you and the other players don't get anything and the game ends for them. I think it's a bad design from Goko's part, but that doesn't make it ok to not be a good sport against the other players.

Also, as for the issue itself. I've seen a lot worse IRL and online. Also I agree that there still was a good chance for you to still win.
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ashersky

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2013, 08:12:40 am »
0

So P1 makes an in-game play resulting in higher winning chances for him, and you call it king making and quit like a baby?

There must be some element to the story I'm missing here. Also there are 3 Provinces left, no?

I find nothing baby-like in conceding during a multiplayer game to allow the other opponents to finish.  I also don't see how giving P2 the lead gave P1 a better chance to win.

I didn't go into details about the chat box, if that's what you mean.  P1 made it clear the play was done with malice, not strategy, in mind.

I was able to break PPR before resigning, so it must have been 3-5-2 at that point.  P1 could not overtake P2.

Please, NEVER quit during a 3+p game. It results in a loss for you and the other players don't get anything and the game ends for them. I think it's a bad design from Goko's part, but that doesn't make it ok to not be a good sport against the other players.

Also, as for the issue itself. I've seen a lot worse IRL and online. Also I agree that there still was a good chance for you to still win.

There was no indication that the other players gained nothing from my resignation.  I took a loss, which was my decision.  What I didn't know was whether the game ended because I resigned or because the next play ended the game.

I presented the score incorrectly.  3-5-2 province split, no plus buy, and I'm only middling at best at Dominion.  I was fine losing and didn't want to play with those folks anymore.  Resigning was, to me, the sportsmanly thing to do.  I could have just closed the browser or walked away.
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2013, 08:34:18 am »
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When you quit, the game ends. Don't do that, especially when the game is almost over anyway. P1 wanted to stop you winning, but it's a game, that is what they are suppposed to do - why take it personally?
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ashersky

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2013, 08:37:00 am »
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When you quit, the game ends. Don't do that, especially when the game is almost over anyway. P1 wanted to stop you winning, but it's a game, that is what they are suppposed to do - why take it personally?

I assumed the other two players were awarded wins though?  So we all just get to our next games faster.  That's what happens in 2-player, anyway.  On iso, you just quit and the others finished the game.
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Kirian

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2013, 08:38:50 am »
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Everything in this thread is a reminder of why I don't play 3P or 4P games competitively (and therefore ever on Goko).

I've seen kingmaking before, and it's not fun--and yes, Fabian, this was kingmaking, as P1 intentionally gave P2 a better shot at winning.  Giving another player an extra turn could not possibly increase P1's chances of winning.

Resigning should always be an option, but Goko managed to screw it up, forcing a game to end when one player resigns rather than allowing the other two to finish.  This means someone who isn't having fun has to stay in order for the others to finish the game, which is unfair to that player.

TLDR: Skip multiplayer unless you're with friends.
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 08:58:10 am »
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I assumed the other two players were awarded wins though?
Here's why that doesn't happen: I open Chapel/Mountebank, you open Estate/Duchy, and then your friend resigns.
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Lekkit

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 09:04:40 am »
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Getting two turns of Governors must be better for you than one turn, right? Also, I see nothing wrong in trying to get in second place instead of third. I've done this myself. It's part of three- or four player games. Getting as high as possible.
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 09:10:46 am »
+1

Getting two turns of Governors must be better for you than one turn, right? Also, I see nothing wrong in trying to get in second place instead of third. I've done this myself. It's part of three- or four player games. Getting as high as possible.

That wasn't the issue here -- P1 had P2 possess ashersky.  The only way I can see this being OK is if P1 thought that ashersky had the game locked up and P2 was way behind.  The hope would be that P2 can mess up ashersky enough to let P1 come into the lead, without actually having P2 win himself.  If that was the idea, I don't consider that kingmaking.
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 09:19:33 am »
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In every >2-player boardgame I've ever played it was a common sentiment to collectively target the player who was most ahead. I understand this completely and participate in it myself (whenever I'm not the one who's being targeted :/), so I'm not at all surprised to see it occurring online as well.

However, this is also why I think 3-player Dominion games are completely meaningless from a competitive perspective. They strike me as being as silly as 3-player chess and are best reserved for a casual environment among friends. Besides, where do you guys find the patience to voluntarily endure the torment of waiting for two(!) opponents to finish their turn before you can finally play your own hand?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 09:20:34 am by SheCantSayNo »
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Kirian

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 09:32:08 am »
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In every >2-player boardgame I've ever played it was a common sentiment to collectively target the player who was most ahead. I understand this completely and participate in it myself (whenever I'm not the one who's being targeted :/), so I'm not at all surprised to see it occurring online as well.

This actually depends on how much things can be targeted in a given kind of game, and whether or not it is "kingmaking" depends on the person doing it.  If the player in third (or lower) place has the ability to choose, without other input, which of the top two players will win, that's kingmaking.  It's also poor design for a competitive game, but we all should remind ourselves from time to time that Dominion was not originally supposed to be a competitive game, and was only made such by an internet community that mainly plays 2P games.  Also, it's possible, though very rare, for the player in third to be forced into a kingmaker choice, but that requires really poor game design.

If the player in the lead makes a play that causes problems for the second-place player but not the third-place player, that's not kingmaking; it's making a smart play, as it would be silly to interfere with the person most behind.  (There are tons of edge cases; TTA immediately comes to mind.)
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 09:44:37 am »
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Given that I can't take 3-player games seriously from a competitive perspective, I don't see anything wrong with kingmaking. If I can make player X win over player Y because Y just played a Militia when I could have bought a Province (the bastard!), I will be more than happy to do so :) Again, this is all part of the friendly banter natural to casual environments.
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DrFlux

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 09:59:30 am »
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I hate that resigning counts as a quit in >2P games.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think abandoning a 3/4 P game counts as a quit even if you do it with bots, for example, in campaign mode. I think that's how my quit rate got to 8%, even though I play almost all 2 player and certainly try not to quit in a bad way.

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lespeutere

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 10:28:24 am »
+1

Just for those who consider resigning in multiplayer games (and in a case where the game is going on, as ashersky originally thought) as soon as they see they have no chance: it completely changes the game. Strategies may change from inferior to superior and vv due to the change in player numbers, be it when 3 piling plays a significant role or when two players start competing for one card and soon one of them resigns and leaves the third player in a bad position as his opponent can now buy all those cards left (e.g. minion).
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DG

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 10:29:17 am »
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Unless the opponents were conspiring against you for favoritism, I think you need to just accept these things happening. Kingmaking can happen in 3 player games as early as turn 1. In plenty of silk roads vs provinces type games you will find that 2 players back one strategy and one player backs another. This can either favor the 1 player or the 2 players. It's often an opponent's decision whether you are in better or worse strategy.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 11:18:47 am by DG »
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 11:07:33 am »
+3

I don't know if that's really kingmaking, though.  My personal idea of kingmaking is doing things in a 3+ player game that help another player win and do not improve your own chances of winning.  If helping player B instead of player C means you may get 2nd instead of 3rd place, that's not kingmaking (IMO).  If following a strategy helps player B and hurts C, but improves your chances of winning, that's not kingmaking either.  Kingmaking only occurs when you are doing things with the primary objective of making a player other than yourself win.

For instance, I had a Settlers of Catan game I remember from a long time ago where I had a medium/long shot play to win the game through drawing the random cards, but I had to make an unfavorable trade with another player that was almost certainly going to result in them winning the game on their next turn.  I considered this a legitimate play because it was my only reasonable chance of winning the game -- even though I was essentially handing the game to another player if my long shot didn't work out.  But others might see this as kingmaking.
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Fabian

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 12:32:30 pm »
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"I find nothing baby-like in conceding during a multiplayer game to allow the other opponents to finish."

The baby-like part comes from being butthurt over P1 trying to maximize his chances of winning, and it negatively affecting you. I mean yeah, in your follow-up post you say that this clearly wasn't a strategic decision, but well, I dunno about that, man. I'm still going with burthurtedness.

"I also don't see how giving P2 the lead gave P1 a better chance to win."

There's a lot of ways this could happen. Say P2 gets 2 Provinces on his "bonus" turn. Then you get 2 Provinces on your turn. Doesn't seem unreasonable with a strong Governor deck. Then P1 plays Possession and buys any victory card (Estate), then Province during P2's Possession turn. 25-24-24 to P1. This seems totally reasonable. Obviously the real game would probably be more complicated with Governor trashing and stuff, but there you go. In fact, it sounds like this is exactly what happened in the game, since you say you quit with 1 Province remaining, so supposedly P2 got two during his bonus turn and then you grabbed two before quitting the game. Seems like P1 has huge winning chances at that point.
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ashersky

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 05:22:13 pm »
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"I find nothing baby-like in conceding during a multiplayer game to allow the other opponents to finish."

The baby-like part comes from being butthurt over P1 trying to maximize his chances of winning, and it negatively affecting you. I mean yeah, in your follow-up post you say that this clearly wasn't a strategic decision, but well, I dunno about that, man. I'm still going with burthurtedness.

"I also don't see how giving P2 the lead gave P1 a better chance to win."

There's a lot of ways this could happen. Say P2 gets 2 Provinces on his "bonus" turn. Then you get 2 Provinces on your turn. Doesn't seem unreasonable with a strong Governor deck. Then P1 plays Possession and buys any victory card (Estate), then Province during P2's Possession turn. 25-24-24 to P1. This seems totally reasonable. Obviously the real game would probably be more complicated with Governor trashing and stuff, but there you go. In fact, it sounds like this is exactly what happened in the game, since you say you quit with 1 Province remaining, so supposedly P2 got two during his bonus turn and then you grabbed two before quitting the game. Seems like P1 has huge winning chances at that point.

The point isn't whether I could still win or not, the point is whether I have the right to concede.  I could be winning by 70 VP but decide that, due to abusive language in chat, I don't want to continue the game with you, for example.

The baby move is just leaving my browser window open while walking away.  Resigning is a valid game decision in any game.  In some sports, it's called a forfeit, i believe.  If Chelsea is losing to Sampdoria 22 to 0 with 15 minutes to go and injuries reducing them to 6 players on the field, they could still win, technically.  But they may also forfeit and prepare for the next game.  Chelsea gets a loss, Sampdoria a win, the end.

A better analogy would be a 3-player game with real life friends.  It's nearing the end of the game and I'm clearly losing.  I concede, allowing them to finish the game, and go make nachos for the group.  I just did the online version of game night nacho making, but for an ulterior motive.
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 05:24:16 pm »
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You keep saying "allowing them to finish the game". We've said repeatedly that when you quit, the game ends, they don't get to finish the game. And you definitely didn't bring them nachos.
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 05:27:28 pm »
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You keep saying "allowing them to finish the game". We've said repeatedly that when you quit, the game ends, they don't get to finish the game. And you definitely didn't bring them nachos.

I understand, after having started this thread, that that is the case.

But at the time I resigned, I assumed they would finish the game.
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2013, 05:35:10 pm »
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"I also don't see how giving P2 the lead gave P1 a better chance to win."

There's a lot of ways this could happen. Say P2 gets 2 Provinces on his "bonus" turn. Then you get 2 Provinces on your turn. Doesn't seem unreasonable with a strong Governor deck. Then P1 plays Possession and buys any victory card (Estate), then Province during P2's Possession turn. 25-24-24 to P1. This seems totally reasonable. Obviously the real game would probably be more complicated with Governor trashing and stuff, but there you go. In fact, it sounds like this is exactly what happened in the game, since you say you quit with 1 Province remaining, so supposedly P2 got two during his bonus turn and then you grabbed two before quitting the game. Seems like P1 has huge winning chances at that point.

Fabian, you are a well-known master of the game.  If Dominion is tennis, you are probably Nadal.  So you may have handily won in this position:

P1: 24
P2: 37
You: 15

Two provinces remaining, a hand of 2 gold, 2 copper, and a victory card, all governors in deck or discard.  You need 2 provinces, 3 Duchys, and an Estate to win this turn.

You may also feel that P1 increased his chances of winning by letting P2 take that lead over him, but I disagree.

I didn't link the log or anything because this isn't about naming people, or about whether or not I made a good play.  I was asking about Goko etiquette for sportsmanship.  Some of the community condone/support king making, others don't.  Oh well.
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2013, 05:47:19 pm »
0

A better analogy would be a 3-player game with real life friends.  It's nearing the end of the game and I'm clearly losing.  I concede, allowing them to finish the game, and go make nachos for the group.  I just did the online version of game night nacho making, but for an ulterior motive.
It was real life that finally made me understand why people don't like Goons - I was playing 2 skilled friends, but when I got my unstoppable Goons engine set up first, they humored me for a few turns and then asked if we could just quit and say I won. We did, and everyone was happier.

I think, ash, that I would have been ok with your decision based on the information you had available at the time, but would now hope you'd stick it out until the end of the game, despite P1's behavior.
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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2013, 05:54:57 pm »
+2

OK, we're all discussing this without the log.  Let's see what the log has to say!

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130611/log.5113bc4be4b06719e45f163f.1370945950365.txt

Turn 16: All players buy a Province, putting the split at 2/2/2.

Turn 17:
P1 plays Possession and buys a Province to give 3/2/2.  He draws 5 cards, and sees that he can't make a Province buy his next turn from his hand.  He can, however, upgrade Potions into Duchies if P3 uses Governors.
P1 Possesses P2, and sees he can only get a Gold.  He plays the Possession, giving P2 control of P3's next hand.
P2 plays his regular turn (is that the right order?), and buys a Province, making the split 3/3/2.
P2 Possesses P3 (ashersky), uses Governors to get two Provinces and an Estate.  He also gets Potion->Duchy from his own hand, and P1 gets 2x Potion -> Duchy.  The split is now 3(+2D)/5(+1D)/2.
P3 (ashersky) is able to get a Province, then quits (form 3rd place).

OK, now let's rewind.  Pretend P1 had not played P2's Possession.  The sequence is:
P1 plays Possession and buys a Province.  The split is 3/2/2, with no chance of P1 getting a Province next round.
P1 Possesses P2, doesn't play the Possession, and buys a Gold.
P2 plays his regular hand, buying a Province.  The split is now 3/3/2.
P3 plays his hand, and uses Governors.  He gains two Provinces.  P1 gains 2 Duchies, and P2 gains 1 Duchy.  The split is now 3(+2D)/3(+1D)/4.

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One last data point: Ashersky, when making this thread, did not have access to the knowledge that P1 wouldn't have been able to get a Province on the next round; nor did P1 know what P2 would be able to do when he played P2's Possession.

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In case 1, P1 ends up behind P2 by quite a lot.  In fact, P2's lead is almost certainly insurmountable from P1's perspective, as he knows he won't get a Province next turn.  In case 2, P1 ends up ahead of P2.

In other words, if P1 was assuming P3's deck was much better than his own, P1's play of P2's Possession was deliberate kingmaking.
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Reyk

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Re: I quit for the first time today...
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2013, 05:58:34 pm »
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Resigning is a valid game decision in any game.

Of course it's not in multiplayer games. As others have stated (look at lespeutere's post) you completely change the game dynamics even if they could have continued.

You start with 8 provinces in a 2 player game. This is common knowledge at the start of the game. You start with 12 provinces in a 3 player game. This is for a reason.

At yucata for instance you can only resign 2 player games. This is for a reason too - and btw a good solution.
If Goko allows resigning in multiplayer games - this is a questionable implementation. At least you should understand that resigning in multiplayer games - even if technically allowed - is not a valid decision in the sense of fair play.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 06:01:00 pm by Reyk »
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