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Author Topic: Rebuild Mirrors  (Read 24591 times)

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flies

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2013, 09:55:52 am »
0

Interesting point about copper.  The main difficulty is of course that copper spreads out your rebuild plays, and after the duchies go they're kinda useless.  That may be cancelled out by getting more duchies, but I'm not sure.

So, before the Duchies run out, you have to make sure you grab enough, in order to have fuel for your Rebuilds, and after the Duchies are gone, if there are still Estates in your Deck, the best thing you can do, is name "Estate", so that you make sure your Rebuilds make progress.

This is basically true only if you have more estates than provinces and you're in the lead, right?  Hitting province -> province isn't progress unless you want the game to end sooner (it hurts you if you're behind).
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Awaclus

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2013, 10:18:21 am »
+2

First of all, a Rebuild Deck is a Slog.
I'd say that Rebuild is more like a rush, since it's a fast scoring strategy that aims to grab some points and end the game as soon as possible.
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2013, 01:14:38 pm »
+1

First of all, a Rebuild Deck is a Slog.
I'd say that Rebuild is more like a rush, since it's a fast scoring strategy that aims to grab some points and end the game as soon as possible.
I agree with this. The Rebuild rush is the thing you have to watch out for. Not only can Rebuild end the game quickly by trashing Province for Province, it eats away at the Duchies in the process. Because it's non-terminal, you can possibly add the best terminals to your deck in the process. The presence of Alt-VP cards like Fairgrounds and Farmland just give more ways for the Rebuild player a chance to pass the Duchy hurtle.

Of course, the Rebuild rush may not be the optimal strategy, but Rebuild can supplement an already decent strategy that doesn't involve Estate trashing. I recently played a game where I was able to get a bunch of Fool's gold really quickly with Taxman, and adding a couple of Rebuilds when I hit $5 seemed to make that deck even faster.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2013, 01:52:47 pm »
+2

Sorry, but some of this advice is badly wrong. Copper doesn't hurt so much, ok, but you don't want more copper, that will just make your deck bigger, meaning you play your rebuilds less frequently. Rebuild games are better characterised as rushes, rather than slogs, speed is the most important - a slog is a strategy which wants to prolong the game to score higher, eg gardens or vineyards. If you only have provinces left, more rebuilds will allow you to end the game quicker.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 01:55:16 pm by Warfreak2 »
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2014, 04:58:29 am »
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Quote
Also, what do I do on $5 if there aren't any more duchies around?

This very much depends on the board and on the post-duchy strategy you're picking. Independent of your strategy, if there is Rogue, Graverobber, Saboteur, and maaaybe Mountebank or IGG, you should pick those (definitely don't buy Witch, though). If there aren't any such cards and you are going for Turbo Rebuild, get another Rebuild with each $5 until very late in the game when you might want to pick Estate. If you go Estate-Blitz you might want another Rebuild with your first post-Duchy $5, and probably an Estate with every >$1 hand after that (unless of course you get a miraculous $8).

I really have to ping this thread. I've had a Rebuild game these days (unfortunately: No log because Goko is stupid :/) with Rebuild and Soothsayer (no Colonies, no Shelters).
I had a hard time judging if I wanted the Soothsayer or not. I went for it (with my very first 5$) while my opponent didn't. At the end I won smoothly, I could even buy a province with my Soothsayer Golds (although I probably played it only like two or three times). As the log is missing, I also can't reconstruct if that win was lucky or my opponent played just bad. I do remember that he at least chancellored once due to naming the wrong card with his Rebuild.
I just would like to know if you think it's worth it on a generic board with not much going on besides Rebuild to go for the Soothsayer or if it was a mistake from my side.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 05:31:56 am by assemble_me »
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Awaclus

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2014, 10:08:37 am »
+2

Quote
Also, what do I do on $5 if there aren't any more duchies around?

This very much depends on the board and on the post-duchy strategy you're picking. Independent of your strategy, if there is Rogue, Graverobber, Saboteur, and maaaybe Mountebank or IGG, you should pick those (definitely don't buy Witch, though). If there aren't any such cards and you are going for Turbo Rebuild, get another Rebuild with each $5 until very late in the game when you might want to pick Estate. If you go Estate-Blitz you might want another Rebuild with your first post-Duchy $5, and probably an Estate with every >$1 hand after that (unless of course you get a miraculous $8).

I really have to ping this thread. I've had a Rebuild game these days (unfortunately: No log because Goko is stupid :/) with Rebuild and Soothsayer (no Colonies, no Shelters).
I had a hard time judging if I wanted the Soothsayer or not. I went for it (with my very first 5$) while my opponent didn't. At the end I won smoothly, I could even buy a province with my Soothsayer Golds (although I probably played it only like two or three times). As the log is missing, I also can't reconstruct if that win was lucky or my opponent played just bad. I do remember that he at least chancellored once due to naming the wrong card with his Rebuild.
I just would like to know if you think it's worth it on a generic board with not much going on besides Rebuild to go for the Soothsayer or if it was a mistake from my side.
I think you should go for it. In a Rebuild game, the extra card for your opponent isn't huge, and well, neither is the Curse, but it still significantly hurts him, and the Golds are extremely helpful.
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2014, 10:11:28 am »
+2

Quote
I think you should go for it. In a Rebuild game, the extra card for your opponent isn't huge, and well, neither is the Curse, but it still significantly hurts him, and the Golds are extremely helpful.

agreed
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SCSN

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2014, 06:48:38 pm »
+3

Quote
Also, what do I do on $5 if there aren't any more duchies around?

This very much depends on the board and on the post-duchy strategy you're picking. Independent of your strategy, if there is Rogue, Graverobber, Saboteur, and maaaybe Mountebank or IGG, you should pick those (definitely don't buy Witch, though). If there aren't any such cards and you are going for Turbo Rebuild, get another Rebuild with each $5 until very late in the game when you might want to pick Estate. If you go Estate-Blitz you might want another Rebuild with your first post-Duchy $5, and probably an Estate with every >$1 hand after that (unless of course you get a miraculous $8).

I really have to ping this thread. I've had a Rebuild game these days (unfortunately: No log because Goko is stupid :/) with Rebuild and Soothsayer (no Colonies, no Shelters).
I had a hard time judging if I wanted the Soothsayer or not. I went for it (with my very first 5$) while my opponent didn't. At the end I won smoothly, I could even buy a province with my Soothsayer Golds (although I probably played it only like two or three times). As the log is missing, I also can't reconstruct if that win was lucky or my opponent played just bad. I do remember that he at least chancellored once due to naming the wrong card with his Rebuild.
I just would like to know if you think it's worth it on a generic board with not much going on besides Rebuild to go for the Soothsayer or if it was a mistake from my side.

I'm not a fan. The extra card is huge because it can often be the difference between a $4 hand (almost irrelevant past T4) and a $5+ one (great), whereas the bonus for you/penalty for your opponent are delayed, meaning that the Soothsayer purchase makes it less likely that you get to $5 again in the short run. I'd have to look at the actual log to say anything more, but if your opponent made a play as bad as naming the wrong card he probably made a lot of other mistakes too, plus that Rebuild is a high-variance card so that the results of a single game don't tell you all that much.
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AdamH

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2014, 08:47:09 am »
+1

In a Rebuild game, the extra card for your opponent isn't huge, and well, neither is the Curse, but it still significantly hurts him, and the Golds are extremely helpful.

I'm gonna have to disagree with this (and actually agree with SCSN! ;D well, sorta)

Every time I've played junking attacks against Rebuild (or had them played against my Rebuilds) they have been much more effective than statements like this tend to indicate. Hitting $5 in a Rebuild deck is really important and since you're usually spending your $5 buys on cards that don't help you continue to hit $5, I'd say it would be worth it if you spent one $5 buy on a card that denied that possibility to your opponent just once, which is likely. Especially if that card helps you hit $5 (or even $8!)

On another note, discard attacks hurt too, for basically the same reasons as SCSN said.

Sure, "just Rebuild" beats "just the attack" in most of these cases, but that doesn't mean they aren't worth going for. We were saying the same thing about Jack because Just Jack beats Just Mountebank for the longest time, but now it's clear you want to go for them both.
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Awaclus

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2014, 10:07:33 am »
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Every time I've played junking attacks against Rebuild (or had them played against my Rebuilds) they have been much more effective than statements like this tend to indicate. Hitting $5 in a Rebuild deck is really important and since you're usually spending your $5 buys on cards that don't help you continue to hit $5, I'd say it would be worth it if you spent one $5 buy on a card that denied that possibility to your opponent just once, which is likely. Especially if that card helps you hit $5 (or even $8!)
Yes, you definitely want to get a junking attack in a Rebuild game pretty often. It's just not as effective as it is against an engine without trashing, for example.
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liopoil

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2014, 01:28:50 pm »
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necroing this, I just played an interesting rebuild game with awaclus:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140820/log.510d7890e4b0ac7a7a0be611.1408553724148.txt

Important cards where feodum, rebuild, altar, and scavenger. There were shelters and no colonies. He got 5/2, I 4/3. He opened estate-rebuild trashing hovel, which I thought was an advantage over my scavenger/silver, but he made a good point that I had much better economy for hitting 5.

T3/4 I get feodum/altar, while he rebuilds OE-->feodum and gets silver/scavenger. Right now the only difference between our decks is that he has estate instead of OE and hovel, and I have altar instead of rebuild. I think altar was the right call there.

He continues the traditional rebuild path with a bit of feodum, while I focus more on feoda, because I think I am losing and this gives me the best chance to catch up. On turns 6 and 7 I buy an estate, I think this was probably a mistake on at least one of those turns because I still have OE and a feodum.

By the end of turn 11 both the duchy and feodum piles are empty, he won the duchy split 6-2, I won the feodum split 5-3, and have already trashed two of them. I am certainly losing, but I spike a province because of all my silvers, and I'm back in it. After turn 14 my feoda are worth 3 points, (exactly 9 silver), but I make the mistake of buying an estate, again. Before I bought that estate, there were 5 estates left in the supply, and I was down 3 points. I should have gotten a silver instead and tried to boost up my feoda again while hopefully rebuilding my last duchy into a province. Unfortunately now awaclus can pile out the estate in the span of two turns and I don't have the time to catch up. Had I gotten a silver instead then I think I still would have had a decent shot.

So, I think the main mistakes I made were the 3 estates I bought, I probably should have gotten just 1, if any. I was a bit surprised that my feodum strategy was competitive. I thought I was farther behind than I actually was when I committed more to feoda, so probably would have had a chance to get lucky if I had gone for duchies.

As it is, I'm still not sure whether you should go straight for provinces with rebuild, focus on provinces but pick up a few silvers with feodum early as awaclus did, or try to get a lot of points out of feoda like I did. Anyone else have thoughts?

I would have tried an engine thing if there was any sort of draw... but without draw I don't think it can compete with rebuild.

EDIT: we played another game: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140820/log.510d7890e4b0ac7a7a0be611.1408559400799.txt, this one was pretty boring though, just a pure mirror. I'm not sure either of us made any mistakes... I won the coinflip.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 02:31:56 pm by liopoil »
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Awaclus

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2014, 10:07:06 am »
+1

As it is, I'm still not sure whether you should go straight for provinces with rebuild, focus on provinces but pick up a few silvers with feodum early as awaclus did, or try to get a lot of points out of feoda like I did. Anyone else have thoughts?
Well, you certainly want to Rebuild the OE into a Feodum, there is basically no reason to not do it. Then I bought more Feoda later partially because I wanted to deny them from you, I don't think it would be a good idea against someone going for just Provinces.
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2015, 08:22:04 am »
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So this Estate Blitz. When is this ever good? Like, I've tried it a few times and deeply, deeply regretted it. If it wasn't for this article I would conclude positively that Estate Blitz is never, ever, ever ever good. I would conclude that it's probably the worst possible thing you can do, no matter what, aside from emptying the Curse pile. Why am I wrong?
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2015, 09:06:07 pm »
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I'm somewhat skeptical of its strength, too. No reasonable amount of estates would beat a 5-3 duchy split; I suppose it may have a favorable matchup to turbo rebuild in a 4-4 split when there's some quick way to amass estates?
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2015, 09:42:15 pm »
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I sometimes do it when there's alt-VP, especially duke.
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