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Author Topic: Rebuild Mirrors  (Read 24545 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2013, 03:03:40 pm »
+3

So, I was thinking, how would I play Rebuild against NV/Bridge? At first I thought three pile threat, but I'm not so sure about that. But then I had the next thought.


Super straightforward lalalalala Rebuild strategy:
Basically get as many rebuilds as possible as absolutely fast as you possibly can. Probably this means buying exclusively silvers and rebuilds, 1 terminal silver of choice on <5, maybe some sifters also on <5. Rebuild your estates first, if possible, then your 3 duchies into provinces. Then just keep doing the same thing, and when you have no non-province green in your deck (including if you have some non-provinces in your hand), just let province-> province happen. Oh, and obviously buy a province if you luck into the money and already have, I dunno, 3-ish Rebuilds.

That's it. Okay, maybe when you get to the point where you are pretty likely not to play any rebuild you buy, before game end, buy duchy. And possibly some time around when you get to your 3rd province up (maybe a little later), start buying estates on <5, only it's important here to always name estate.

Seriously, that's it. Basically, you ust trash the province pile up, and end the game fast, before your opponent can do anything.



I almost wonder if this works in the mirror. Let's check it out. Basically, you will end up with 3 provinces. The other guy, if they are playing as suggested in the article, will get 5 duchies, and try to turn them into provinces. If you trash 3 provinces, you need 3 estates to keep up with him. Probably, that's about where you will be. So that is the magic number. Which means you need to play rebuild, let's see, 9 times, before he plays it 6. Which... well, they BOUGHT 2 green cards, and you bought 2 rebuilds instead. Does this translate into you playing rebuild 4 more times than him? Hmm, I would guess no, usually not, but it would actually be reasonably close.
So this actually shows you something really important here, though. There is a point where going too much for the duchies might actually be overdoing it, if you end up with too few Rebuilds. I would guess the magic number is somewhere around 3. This also shows the potential of buying estate as green card #4. Now that will largely depend on how things fall, what money you have at what time, but there will be, I expect, this point where you hit 2 or 3 or 4, and there are maybe 2-4 duchies left, and you want to buy that estate, so that the $5 hands you do get, you can go for a rebuild. Because if you have more rebuilds than him and an even duchy split, I would think that you are in very good position.

Anyway, none of this is really tested, but it seems to make sense. Also, I do think that something like this is probably how you would want to play against mega-turn strategies. It's not about maximizing your points, it's about getting the game over as fast as you can, with a lead.

soulnet

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2013, 05:08:33 pm »
+1

Terrific article. Oh, Rebuild. So comically overpowered.

I just want to bring up Count, which is not, in my view, a very good card, but gains Duchies directly and probably has a place in most Rebuild decks. I think you would spend your first $5 on a Count rather than a Rebuild.

I tried this and it definitely worked. Count is great, because it gives Duchies and the eventual +3$ to get more rebuilds or even Provinces in lucky hands, but also the penalties are not too bad or Rebuild and can actually help you. Gaining a Copper does not hurt at all if all you aim at is $5 and helps the Estate blitz by helping avoid those horrible $1 or $0 hands. Also, discarding or top-decking can be used to great benefit if you track your deck correctly.

EDIT: Here is the log for a Count/Rebuild game. I'm not claiming I played it perfectly AT ALL. I'm playing for fun these days.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130610/log.50ef0200e4b01a13905ce13e.1370888929184.txt
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 05:10:15 pm by soulnet »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2013, 06:03:30 pm »
+3

WW's post (above) brings up a very important point that I think merits deeper discussion in this article -- If you name Estate (and have a Duchy or Province and no other cheap alt VPs in your deck), a Province is going to go away. Now if it came from a Duchy, it also get you +3 VPs, but if not, you still shrunk the Province pile. There was kind of a one sentence mention of it, but it seems like this has a big enough impact on end-game tactics (in addition to potentially affecting the early- and mid-game as suggested by WW) that there is more to say. For instance, the parity of remaining Provinces might matter. If your opponent were likely to be the last one to get a Province, then you're denying him 3 (or 6 if he would have got it via something other than Rebuild) points, but if you were more likely the be the one to get the last Province, you're removing a Province you would have got anyway, so you're actually losing points on the deal.

The other thing I'd like to see is some discussion of how to rank/value the cheap terminals you could potentially put into your deck. I assume Feast and Horse Traders are good since they help you hit $5, and Cutpurse/Militia are good at stopping your opponent from hitting $5. Swindler is good for the trashing attack, it's been mentioned that Baron is good, and I'm sure Chapel can't be that terrible, since it can quickly up your Rebuild density (although it hits your money density pretty hard if you have no way of gaining treasures). Then there's also +cards and junk attack which are probably weaker than usual, but might still be worth it in some cases (what are they?). And there's non-terminal sifters, which may be good enough that you want to skip terminals altogether? So how do you (roughly) value each of these types of additions? I understand that a list of every card that can be useful would be too much, and that in practice the combinations of cheap cards may matter, but do at least have some sense of how much each type of benefit helps and/or how it affects your overall strategy (i.e. favoring Blitz vs Turbo vs BM)?

The other big point has been mentioned already: there should be some discussion of actual tactics in Colony or Shelter games.

But even as is, I think this is the most informative article I've read here in a while. Nice job!
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dondon151

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2013, 06:06:04 pm »
+2

I'm not sure that Chapel is any good because it's not all that unlikely that you draw all of your Victory cards in hand with your Rebuild (in addition to not hitting $5 for awhile).

Maybe a slower Copper trasher like Moneylender would suffice.
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2013, 06:13:29 pm »
+1

The goal is not really to trash, but to cycle. Now, many trashers do improve your cycling, because you end up with fewer cards. So I think Moneylender and Spice Merchant ought to be decent. Not Remodel, because you just replace the card you trash, and not Salvager, because you don't really want to lose Estates, so you just get nothing for your Coppers. But I would just prefer Warehouse and even Cellar to these things.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2013, 07:08:02 pm »
0

As far as terminals to add, you'd mainly want to stick with cards costing less than $5.  You want to play Rebuild and buy more Rebuilds and Duchies.  Thus terminals I would consider include:

Scavenger
Horse Traders
Monument
Smugglers
Navigator
Swindler
Baron
Militia

Militia is mostly only good as an opener probably, as it will slow your opponent down in the Duchy race, but once past the Duchy race the discard is fairly useless.

I don't think I've seen anyone mention Scavenger, but it is a nice terminal Silver that guarantees you a Rebuild in your next hand.

Smugglers is another nice card, as usual in mirror matches.

I'm not so sure about Sea Hag, Moneylender, Spice Merchant, or Feast.  Feast for the usual reasons.  I suppose Moneylender helps you with early $5s, but I'd be worried about hitting your money density too hard.  Sea Hag doesn't help you hit $5, although once you use it your opponent has a Curse which won't help her hit $5.  I guess the Curses give tie breaker points, but the game is unlikely enough to feed your opponent all that many Curses.
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2013, 03:31:35 am »
0

Feast might be somewhat strong with a Graverobber on the board. Now, the question is, do you get a Graverobber first, or a Rebuild...
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timchen

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2013, 05:41:07 am »
0

So, I was thinking, how would I play Rebuild against NV/Bridge? At first I thought three pile threat, but I'm not so sure about that. But then I had the next thought.


Super straightforward lalalalala Rebuild strategy:
Basically get as many rebuilds as possible as absolutely fast as you possibly can. Probably this means buying exclusively silvers and rebuilds, 1 terminal silver of choice on <5, maybe some sifters also on <5. Rebuild your estates first, if possible, then your 3 duchies into provinces. Then just keep doing the same thing, and when you have no non-province green in your deck (including if you have some non-provinces in your hand), just let province-> province happen. Oh, and obviously buy a province if you luck into the money and already have, I dunno, 3-ish Rebuilds.

That's it. Okay, maybe when you get to the point where you are pretty likely not to play any rebuild you buy, before game end, buy duchy. And possibly some time around when you get to your 3rd province up (maybe a little later), start buying estates on <5, only it's important here to always name estate.

Seriously, that's it. Basically, you ust trash the province pile up, and end the game fast, before your opponent can do anything.



I almost wonder if this works in the mirror. Let's check it out. Basically, you will end up with 3 provinces. The other guy, if they are playing as suggested in the article, will get 5 duchies, and try to turn them into provinces. If you trash 3 provinces, you need 3 estates to keep up with him. Probably, that's about where you will be. So that is the magic number. Which means you need to play rebuild, let's see, 9 times, before he plays it 6. Which... well, they BOUGHT 2 green cards, and you bought 2 rebuilds instead. Does this translate into you playing rebuild 4 more times than him? Hmm, I would guess no, usually not, but it would actually be reasonably close.
So this actually shows you something really important here, though. There is a point where going too much for the duchies might actually be overdoing it, if you end up with too few Rebuilds. I would guess the magic number is somewhere around 3. This also shows the potential of buying estate as green card #4. Now that will largely depend on how things fall, what money you have at what time, but there will be, I expect, this point where you hit 2 or 3 or 4, and there are maybe 2-4 duchies left, and you want to buy that estate, so that the $5 hands you do get, you can go for a rebuild. Because if you have more rebuilds than him and an even duchy split, I would think that you are in very good position.

Anyway, none of this is really tested, but it seems to make sense. Also, I do think that something like this is probably how you would want to play against mega-turn strategies. It's not about maximizing your points, it's about getting the game over as fast as you can, with a lead.

I really like this post. Can someone just some solitare seeing how many turns does this strategy ($5 for rebuild only) take to get 3 Provinces in deck and 3 Provinces trashed? This will probably tell how a rebuild deck is unbeatable by engines.
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2013, 09:24:26 am »
0

Feast might be somewhat strong with a Graverobber on the board. Now, the question is, do you get a Graverobber first, or a Rebuild...

Rebuild obviously?  What would you do with a Graverobber so early?  Or do you mean Rogue?  An early Rogue at least means you'll probably get to attack with it.
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2013, 09:48:23 am »
0

Feast might be somewhat strong with a Graverobber on the board. Now, the question is, do you get a Graverobber first, or a Rebuild...

Rebuild obviously?  What would you do with a Graverobber so early?  Or do you mean Rogue?  An early Rogue at least means you'll probably get to attack with it.

His point was that you could get the trashed Feast back with the Graverobber.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2013, 11:40:42 am »
0

Feast might be somewhat strong with a Graverobber on the board. Now, the question is, do you get a Graverobber first, or a Rebuild...

Rebuild obviously?  What would you do with a Graverobber so early?  Or do you mean Rogue?  An early Rogue at least means you'll probably get to attack with it.

His point was that you could get the trashed Feast back with the Graverobber.

But with a Rebuild you can get a Duchy, which is what you'd be getting with the Feast anyway, right?
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MarkowKette

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2013, 04:43:13 am »
0


Quote
Quote
Okay, cool. But what about if I have all my remaining estates in hand? Do I not rebuild duchy->province in this case even? Is it THAT important? I would think no, go ahead and turn the duchy into a province.
Sure.
Sure to which thing?
Sure, you should turn the Duchy into a Province. 4 Duchies + 1 rebuilt Province vs 3 Duchies is still "winning the Duchy split."

I think this is not always the case.
Turning a Duchy into Province does actually hurt you for winning the Duchy split a bit, because it might happen that your fourth play of rebuild will hit a Duchy or a Province instead of the Estate as you cant name duchy and Province and so this might cause you to lose the Duchy split.
But most of the time i would agree in doing this:
If you feel a bit behind in the game you may be forced to take that risk and that one extra rebuild play can make the difference in the end as rebuild mirrors tend to be close.
And the risk is not very high as the chance of not hitting the estate is smaller than the chance of hitting it(50% if Estate, Province and Duchy are in draw pile while rebuild in hand and if Estate is in the discard analogous) but deck tracking helps a lot here on the decision if you have to name Province or Duchy the next play.(Province in Hand->name Duchy, Province or Duchy in the discard but not Estate ->doesnt matter etc.)
But if i feel to be ahead and e.g. already bought an extra Estate and already turned 3 Estates into Duchies and my opponent only has two duches at the moment i wouldnt take the risk that now he may not only have a chance to catch up but maybe even win the duchy split with buying a duchy or two on lucky $5s and you being unlucky not hitting the last Estate with your next rebuild turn.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 05:04:38 am by MarkowKette »
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soulnet

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2013, 08:47:09 am »
0

If you are clearly ahead, you can always go Duchy->Duchy, in a similar fashion as Remodeling or Salvaging Province->Province. I still think I would do Duchy->Province most of the time in any case, because even if the Duchy split ends up even, you are still ahead on the Rebuilding.
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MarkowKette

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2013, 09:20:11 am »
0

ok yes duchy->duchy is a good thing to do there and it usually leads to a 4-3 duchy split in your favor but there are still cases when i wouldnt do it: e.g. if you can be sure to have another rebuild next hand and would skip over it by doing duchy->duchy or duchy->province rebuilding
But yes those cases are quite rare.
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DG

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2013, 09:57:47 am »
0

Here's a more taxing question. What is rebuild like in 3 player games and how does strategy change?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2013, 12:03:48 pm »
0

Here's a more taxing question. What is rebuild like in 3 player games and how does strategy change?

That is a taxing question. I would imagine that would be one hell of a fast game where one player really gets left behind and screwed.
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Wingnut

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2013, 02:30:18 pm »
0

Here's a more taxing question. What is rebuild like in 3 player games and how does strategy change?

That is a taxing question. I would imagine that would be one hell of a fast game where one player really gets left behind and screwed.

I would imagine I'm not playing the mirror if I think both of my opponents will do so and there is a decent engine on the board. I feel 2 people playing Rebuild won't clear everything so fast with the extra green cards giving me more time to finish what I'm doing engine wise (or heck even BM wise)
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2013, 03:24:48 pm »
+2

Here's a more taxing question. What is rebuild like in 3 player games and how does strategy change?

That is a taxing question. I would imagine that would be one hell of a fast game where one player really gets left behind and screwed.

I would imagine I'm not playing the mirror if I think both of my opponents will do so and there is a decent engine on the board. I feel 2 people playing Rebuild won't clear everything so fast with the extra green cards giving me more time to finish what I'm doing engine wise (or heck even BM wise)

If there's some alt VP or VP tokens, you have less time to set up. The rebuild players will need 6 provinces each, while in a 2p game, the rebuild player would need 8 provinces. Also, since the rebuilders are burning through duchies, the engine player has fewer alternatives to make up for a potential loss in the province split if he's going that way.
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2013, 11:55:15 am »
0

This article was the single most informative thing I have read on this site since the Penultimate Province Rule.
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2013, 07:04:18 pm »
0

Has there been any further discussion of how Feodum fits (or doesn't) in a Rebuild mirror?

I played this game suboptimally, although I did end up winning, where I bought Feodum (turns 5 and 9) for the express purpose of turning them into Duchies, before then adding them to work on a 3-pile (Duchy, Estate, Feodum), which is how the game ends with 3 Duchies still in my deck.  It was kind of ugly, as we both bought unneccesary Estates early, which became Feodum when Duchies were gone.

Was it better to ignore Feodum's existence here?  The 3-pile worked out, but it was close.  You may notice I opted NOT to play a Rebuild at the end when I was able to go Feodum -> Feodum on my first one and buy the last Estate to win.
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Watno

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2013, 07:21:50 pm »
0

I had the following situation occur to me some times recently:
In a Rebuild Mirror, you find yourself with a hand that includes rebuild and all your estates. There are still Duchys left. What do you do?
I usually  go with rebuilding a duchy into a province, but i keep asking myself wether Duchy->Duchy or just cycling through your deck would be better.
What do the Rebuild experts think on this matter?
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2013, 07:54:06 pm »
+3

I had the following situation occur to me some times recently:
In a Rebuild Mirror, you find yourself with a hand that includes rebuild and all your estates. There are still Duchys left. What do you do?
I usually  go with rebuilding a duchy into a province, but i keep asking myself wether Duchy->Duchy or just cycling through your deck would be better.
What do the Rebuild experts think on this matter?

I don't think you'd go far wrong by just always taking the Province. Rebuild mirrors are such fast, close, low-scoring games that it's really hard to pass on 3 VP.

I've never just cycled (on purpose anyway). I'd only go Duchy -> Duchy in very unusual situations. The virtue of that play is in giving yourself extra control over your future Rebuild targets by limiting your unique VP cards, or in depriving your opponent of that same control by leaving him with unrebuildable Estates.

For that to be worth 3 VP, two things need to happen:

First, getting stuck with Estates has to do real harm. That can happen on a board with Rogue/Graverobber gaining Duchies from the trash, since you'll always have a Duchy to rebuild if you can just avoid your Estates. It might also happen with Scheme/Scavenger/Warehouse or a similar turbo-Rebuild enabler, though that game will be so fast that you probably prefer the 3 VP now.

Second, you have to know that Duchy->Duchy will leave your opponent with Estates but not you. That can happen if there's just one Duchy left and you've trashed all of yours. It can also happen if your opponent has just reshuffled with all his Rebuilds in the discard. But unless you're really certain that it won't be you who gets stuck with the extra Estate, then just take the 3 VP.
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2013, 04:53:18 pm »
+2

Very nice article!  I enjoyed reading it, but I would like to comment that as someone who plays most of my games offline, it really tripped me up when you said:

If this happens to you, check the log to see exactly what was in the deck that you just discarded; this will get you back on track.

I imagine that this is referencing the log in Goko's online implementation.  I know others disagree with me, but I feel like the default assumption for these articles ought to be the physical sets, with references to other implementations being made explicitly when appropriate.  But again, it's your article.

Goko technically isn't Dominion, it's just a variant.

To my knowledge, I've played more Rebuild games than the top 10 goko players combined, because I could look at the top cards of discard piles, and I didn't get to use a log or point track, and on-buy on-gain was implemented correctly.  That is, one game.


The lack of standardization in Dominion has kind of made me give up on it as a whole at this point, so write the articles for whatever you want.  Personally, since there is not a majority-use set of conditions the way the game is played (like there was with isotropic), I think you should specify at the beginning of the article what kind of Dominion you're writing about.  It matters for more than just the log thing, it's also important to note because number of players will impact your treatment of rushes, etc, Intrigue-heavy ownership common in some groups would affect the treatment of alt-green, and promo ownership also probably tilts things in one direction or another (and I hear promo ownership is not well standardized on Goko).   

"Let's talk about this ten card kingdom in 2 player" is probably a better format for articles at this point, because it removes tendencies and preferences that are based in the frequency of appearance of certain kinds of cards and the frequency of appearance of a certain number of players.  Even if you want to focus on a specific card.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 04:54:55 pm by popsofctown »
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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2013, 01:39:07 pm »
+1

I agree with the many others who already mentioned this is a very good article!
Unfortunately I can't really test Rebuild stuff and thus appreciate it fully right now, I don't play on Goko so far (still mourning Isotropic and Dr. Held's excellent deck counter).

Anyway, here is a little addendum:

Nobles, Harem, and Farmland can all be rebuilt into Provinces. Buying these is usually at least as good as buying Duchies, so the Duchy race becomes less important and finding $6 to buy these with becomes more important.

Fairgrounds should be added to this list, it wasn't mentioned in this thread at all so far.
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manthos88

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Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2013, 09:28:47 am »
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I 'd like to display my opinion about Rebuild here. I've practiced a lot on Rebuild and i'm rather aknowledged on how a Rebuild deck should work.

First of all, a Rebuild Deck is a Slog. Since the key cards are Rebuild and VP cards, you have to keep track of your Treasure density in your Deck. So, as in any other slog, Coppers are good. And they are actually very important to buy if you want to keep hitting $5.

Second of all, you have to keep track of the "level" of Victory cards in your Deck (whether they are Estates, Duchies, or Provinces). If you want to bump up your Deck with Rebuilds early on, just keep in mind that "level". It would be stupid to buy another Rebuild when all of your Estates have been turned into Provinces.

As far as i know, there are little things you can do when you have devoted your Deck into Rebuild. So, before the Duchies run out, you have to make sure you grab enough, in order to have fuel for your Rebuilds, and after the Duchies are gone, if there are still Estates in your Deck, the best thing you can do, is name "Estate", so that you make sure your Rebuilds make progress.
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Just give me a mega-turn engine and take my soul...
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