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Author Topic: Squire  (Read 35967 times)

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Holger

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Re: Squire
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2014, 09:11:56 am »
0

It's amazing in Gardens games.  They each give you a coin, and you can get a lot of buys from them.  One time, I played a squire for actions, a squire for buys, another squire for buys, and bought a gardens and four copper.

A single Beggar can almost do the same as the three Squires in such a case.  :P
(Though one could say that Beggar-Gardens is "more than amazing", so your claim may still stand...)
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KingZog3

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Re: Squire
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2014, 10:43:30 am »
0

It's amazing in Gardens games.  They each give you a coin, and you can get a lot of buys from them.  One time, I played a squire for actions, a squire for buys, another squire for buys, and bought a gardens and four copper.

A single Beggar can almost do the same as the three Squires in such a case.  :P
(Though one could say that Beggar-Gardens is "more than amazing", so your claim may still stand...)

Just because Squire is good for Gardens doesn't mean Beggar isn't. Beggar is probably the best card in all of Dominion for Gardens.
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Holger

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Re: Squire
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2014, 10:57:09 am »
0

It's amazing in Gardens games.  They each give you a coin, and you can get a lot of buys from them.  One time, I played a squire for actions, a squire for buys, another squire for buys, and bought a gardens and four copper.

A single Beggar can almost do the same as the three Squires in such a case.  :P
(Though one could say that Beggar-Gardens is "more than amazing", so your claim may still stand...)

Just because Squire is good for Gardens doesn't mean Beggar isn't. Beggar is probably the best card in all of Dominion for Gardens.
Of course it is. As I tried to indicate with the bracketed part, Squire is still very good Gardens support, but I don't think I'd call it "amazing". How often do you have three Squires in hand in a Gardens rush? At most once per game, I think. And with only one or two in hand, it's closer in strength to Woodcutter than to Beggar.
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KingZog3

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Re: Squire
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2014, 11:23:59 am »
+1

It's amazing in Gardens games.  They each give you a coin, and you can get a lot of buys from them.  One time, I played a squire for actions, a squire for buys, another squire for buys, and bought a gardens and four copper.

A single Beggar can almost do the same as the three Squires in such a case.  :P
(Though one could say that Beggar-Gardens is "more than amazing", so your claim may still stand...)

Just because Squire is good for Gardens doesn't mean Beggar isn't. Beggar is probably the best card in all of Dominion for Gardens.
Of course it is. As I tried to indicate with the bracketed part, Squire is still very good Gardens support, but I don't think I'd call it "amazing". How often do you have three Squires in hand in a Gardens rush? At most once per game, I think. And with only one or two in hand, it's closer in strength to Woodcutter than to Beggar.

The power to be non-terminal with 2 in hand, as well and the ability to gain 3 cards per turn instead of 2 makes it way stronger than Woodcutter as a Garden Enabler.
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soulnet

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Re: Squire
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2014, 11:41:32 am »
+1

The power to be non-terminal with 2 in hand, as well and the ability to gain 3 cards per turn instead of 2 makes it way stronger than Woodcutter as a Garden Enabler.

It is also way easier to load up on Squires than either Beggar or Woodcutter, which is important. You deplete the pile faster for a rush, and also start pounding earlier on Gardens. In non-mirrors, I would say Squire/Gardens is waaaay better than Woodcutter/Gardens (which is on itself not too good) and possibly a bit faster but less scoring than Beggar/Gardens. If Squire and Beggar are on the kingdom, I would probably open with 2xSquire to try to get some double Beggars and deplete Beggars faster.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Squire
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2014, 11:54:40 am »
0

The way I see squire's on trash effect is that sometimes it's cool, but mostly not a big deal. It's cool with Scrying Pool and Familiar. It's fun with Goons. But otherwise you rarely trigger it on purpose unless maybe its a Dark Ages only game with things like Procession. That's actually probably the best case for it.

This. Procession is a arguably the best way to make use of Squire's on-trash effect. Especially with a $3 Action you want on the board.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Squire
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2014, 01:23:25 pm »
+3

The way I see squire's on trash effect is that sometimes it's cool, but mostly not a big deal. It's cool with Scrying Pool and Familiar. It's fun with Goons. But otherwise you rarely trigger it on purpose unless maybe its a Dark Ages only game with things like Procession. That's actually probably the best case for it.

This. Procession is a arguably the best way to make use of Squire's on-trash effect. Especially with a $3 Action you want on the board.

I think Watchtower is better.
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theblankman

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Re: Squire
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2014, 02:20:36 pm »
+6

Seems to me that Watchtower is best at enabling "Squire as an expensive attack for $2" because there's no need to connect.  The other trasher that hits Squire easier than most: Hermit.  I don't think it deserves mention in the article because on most boards it's not really a direct synergy with Squire.  You still need an attack strong enough to be worth gaining this way. 

But reading this thread and thinking of Hermit did lead me to play around with Yet Another Madman Megaturn (tm): Hermit/Squire/Goons.  Works a lot like Hermit/Market Square but might actually go off faster.  The idea is to empty the Hermit and Squire piles with all those gains and buys while gaining 4-5 each of Madman and Goons, maybe more if your opponent doesn't mirror.  Some of the Goons can be gained during the megaturn with leftover Hermit/Squire pairs, if you have enough Madmen to draw them, so Goons are sort of the last priority to gain in a non-mirror.  The megaturn is just draw everything, play all your Goons, empty the estates to end the game and rake in enough VP chips to win.  I tried maybe 10 games against bots and was consistently able to end it on turn 12 or 13 with 40-60 points, depending on how many Goons I played.  Not sure how the mirror would go though, Hermit split would matter a lot, and with both players gaining Goons quickly you'd have to watch out for the chance to empty that pile, maybe even earlier than when you'd have the coin and buys/gains to drive the Estates. 

If that's already a known thing, then I guess I'm the only one who learned something today.  If not, I suppose I've contributed something but it's not like Goons needed more help :)  Obviously in the context of general Squire discussion this is very much an edge case, but I hear f.ds is okay with edge cases. 
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soulnet

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Re: Squire
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2014, 03:42:20 pm »
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Sounds nice, but after Goons attack, Madmen is really impaired for drawing. You would need some extra drawing to get you started.
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theblankman

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Re: Squire
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2014, 04:49:19 pm »
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Yeah, Hermit/MS and other Madman megaturns have the same issue with discard attacks, except obviously the board's guaranteed to have one here.  But how likely is the opponent to have an engine that plays the discard attack every single turn by 12 or 13?  I think much like Hermit/MS, you might have to wait a few turns for a full hand and then go off, but 40+ points and 3 empty piles as late as turn 17 is likely still a win. 
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Awaclus

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Re: Squire
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2014, 05:02:31 pm »
+1

Yeah, Hermit/MS and other Madman megaturns have the same issue with discard attacks, except obviously the board's guaranteed to have one here.  But how likely is the opponent to have an engine that plays the discard attack every single turn by 12 or 13?  I think much like Hermit/MS, you might have to wait a few turns for a full hand and then go off, but 40+ points and 3 empty piles as late as turn 17 is likely still a win.
With Hermit/MS, you want to wait until you get two Madmen in the same hand according to the article. That's probably true for other Madman megaturn strategies, too, and it requires some luck to connect two Madmen when you aren't hit by Goons. Even if that fails, you can always try your luck with a single Madman hand if you have to, but you don't have too many chances to fail at that.
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theblankman

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Re: Squire
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2014, 05:40:08 pm »
0

It might be less risky to try a single Madman here due to deck size... Hermit/MS per the article wants a ~29-card deck when it goes off.  Hermit/Squire/Goons is at most 27: 7 copper, 10 Hermit/Madman, 10 Squire/Goons (depending on how many of each you've changed over).  It could be significantly fewer if the opponent is also buying Hermits and/or Squires, or if you leave a card or two behind and plan to get them on the megaturn (you'll have plenty of buys/gains). 

You also don't necessarily need Hermit as trasher on the megaturn itself, since you can pick up Goons on earlier turns.  So the "have exactly two more Madmen than Hermits" rule from Hermit/MS doesn't apply; you're free to put more Madmen in your deck. 

Still, if I saw support for a discard-attack engine on the board, I'd think twice about this combo just like I would about Hermit +MS/Bridge/Coppersmith.  I think it's cute, and could dominate some boards on which it appears, but of course it has weaknesses just like pretty much every combo. 
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c4master

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Re: Squire
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2014, 08:41:08 am »
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You could also get turn like Squire for actions, Goons for attack and you then even play another Goons/Squire/Hermit. This would probably slow down the engine whilst not slowing you down by so much.
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Wrclass

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Re: Squire
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2014, 07:22:28 pm »
0

 But no... there's no beating Trader for Feodum support.
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BadAssMutha

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Re: Squire
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2014, 10:49:18 am »
+1

Quote
Squire, more than any single card, can empty piles really fast.

Stonemason, anyone? 4 buys of $4 empties the pile, and then some.
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Minotaur

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Re: Squire
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2014, 05:12:07 pm »
0

About trash-to-gain-attack:  Sure, you wouldn't buy a trasher and a Squire *just* to get an attack card.  But Squire is still Squire, and you probably wanted to have a trasher anyway.  In just about any TfB game, your Squire is both a good target *and* a nice way to prevent yourself from running your deck dry of Treasure cards - this is especially something that needs careful attention in Bishop games.  Another plus for Bishop games is that you might be able to trash your Squire on another player's turn (if it's a good idea given the circumstances).

This card does almost everything Pawn does - the only thing it can't do is the +card, and it can't do +action +buy together - big deal.  It's hard to justify Pawn against a Squire, unless you're playing with KC or something, and then it's a better last-resort target.
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Awaclus

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Re: Squire
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2014, 05:48:55 pm »
+2

But Squire is still Squire, and you probably wanted to have a trasher anyway.
That's two arguments against the on-trash ability. You want the Squire, and you want to use the trasher for something else.
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jomini

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Re: Squire
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2014, 11:05:50 am »
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But Squire is still Squire, and you probably wanted to have a trasher anyway.
That's two arguments against the on-trash ability. You want the Squire, and you want to use the trasher for something else.

Oh come on we already know this is less than high odds setup - you need something that can trash actions and a worthwhile attack. Of course the ability is situational - but it isn't exactly uncommon. Upgrade, Butcher, Bishop, Apprentice, Remake, Salvager, and Governor all get a lot out of free $4 or $5 attack cards even if you just feed the attack cards in turn into the TfB. Now yes there is a lot of trashing that doesn't go after Squire - Loan, Spice Merchant, Moneylender, etc. but enough does, and more importantly enough does and can go after whatever you get on trash.

Do I buy Squire solely for the on trash option? Yes. It is effectively a one shot gold for $2 when I have a reliable engine, scaling TfB, and don't need the buys or +action. I've dumped it into a Fishing village/Upgrade/Hunting grounds engine just so I could upgrade the Squire into a Sab and then Upgrade that into gold or Hunting grounds. I would not have touched it otherwise (I believe we had Haven and Market or something for $2 buys and +buy).

I mean come on, I'll buy Embargo as a one-shot silver for $2 in a well running engine and embargo the curses if I have the action balance and the card draw to sustain the engine. Buying a one-shot gold for the same price is a no-brainer. Either can get me to double provinces a half turn faster by letting me gain an extra component next turn.

The big problems are that some of the expensive attacks - like Mountebank, Witch, Soothesayer, and Cultist need to be gotten fast before they bury you (if you lack strong trashing) so silver gets there first. But a lot of attacks work much better in the slower, but stronger build up. Getting to a single Torturer is often just an expensive Militia/Smithy combo, one Rabble is junk if I've trashed my green or it is Shelter game - but it works green as cheap draw (a shuffle delayed) that really slows the end game, and of course Minion is nice with silver, but going the trashing route allows you to need far fewer Minions and to build value from Squire plays during the Minion chain.

The real strategic decision is deciding if you can shrink your deck fast enough to make Squires into one-shot golds a shuffle delayed or if you will get buried by the delay. Of course this is the same decision we make about a lot of cards - Altar gives you $5 next shuffle for trashing a copper, Money lender gives you $3 right now; now granted Alter can also trash other things, but we will often buy Altar even after our estates are gone or we want to keep them (e.g. using Barons as payload on an engine), so the trade off of good cards later over cash now is not foreign.

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Awaclus

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Re: Squire
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2014, 11:58:39 am »
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Well, obviously if you're already at the point where you don't need your trasher for anything else, Squire's ability gets a lot better since it is no longer a card that you trash instead of a junk card.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Squire
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2014, 01:08:53 am »
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It is effectively a one shot gold for $2

Would you mind to explain that a little more? I really don't get it ...

I could upgrade the Squire into a Sab and then Upgrade that into gold or Hunting grounds
Doing so, you spent 2$, an additional turn, two uses of a 5$-cost and two slots (Squire, Sab) to gain a 3$-card and a 6$-card. That's not so bad, but it is definitely not  what a one-shot-gold does, I mean we are talking about something similar to spoils, aren't we?

And I can't see any striking similarity between squire and spoils.


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jomini

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Re: Squire
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2014, 12:49:28 am »
+1

tC:  Consider the following. I'm playing engine and building to $22 coin per turn. I get my engine up to something reliable and have $7 and 2 coin.

Imagine I spend that on Bazaar and Embargo (turn 1). That gets me directly to $10 where I can buy two $5 components the next turn (say Bazaar and Rabble on turn 2).

Now imagine I spend that on Bazaar and Squire (turn 1). Next turn I trash the Squire. I can now buy a $6 (like Hunting Grounds or Altar) and pick up a Rabble. In this case, Squire has acted like the functional equivalent of a one-shot gold on turn 2.

But what if I don't want the attack (e.g. Torturer against a Tunnel opponent)? Well if I have:
1. Scaling Tfb I'm using.
2. A reliable enough engine.
3. Enough spare action balance.

Then we can imagine the following as out baseline: Turn 1 buy $5 (like Bazaar) & Estate (and yes this can be the best thing to do). Turn 2 Salvage the Estate, now we can buy two $5 (say Bazaar/Merchant ship). Turn 3 - we have $9 to spend ($2 coin from new Bazaars and $2 from Mship), buy a 5/4.

What happens when we use Squire instead? Turn 1 - buy Bazaar/Squire. Turn 2 Salvage the squire (by Bazaar/Mship), gain Torturer. Turn 3 Salvage the Torturer now we have $14 to spend.


But is Salvager a special type of scaling TfB? No. We can do the same thing with Expand. With the estate we can turn it into a $5 (say a bazaar) on T2. We still have $8 to spend so we could get another $5 (Mship) and buy a silver. On T3 then we can Expand the Silver to a $6, and have $9 to spend. We can then gain up $15 worth of cards on T3 with reasonable restrictions.

Expanding the Squire also gives us a Bazaar and we can buy Mship/Silver. However on T3 we can expand the attack up to $8 and have $11 to spend on cards.


Okay so that is baseline.

What happens if I just give you a spoils on T1 and we don't have scaling TfB?

T1:  $10, buy Bazaar/Mship.
T2: $10, buy Bazaar/Mship.
T3: $13 to spend

Now obviously, it takes a good engine to get this sort of thing going, but one way to look at is that it gives you a one-shot gold delayed by a turn. The fact that it is useful of its own right in engines (if you fail to line it up with your scaling TfB) is pure gravy.

Quote
Doing so, you spent 2$, an additional turn, two uses of a 5$-cost and two slots (Squire, Sab) to gain a 3$-card and a 6$-card. That's not so bad, but it is definitely not  what a one-shot-gold does, I mean we are talking about something similar to spoils, aren't we?

And I can't see any striking similarity between squire and spoils.
Oh come on, if I had a Spoils in hand I'd have picked up an Upgrade and Upgraded it into a Hunting Grounds/Gold. Squire was better than that in this instance.

The net effect, if your engine can support it, of buying Squire to trash and then feeding the attack to your scaling TfB is very often at least a one-shot gold a turn delayed, sometimes it is one-shot Plat in terms of how quickly it ramps up your card acquisition power. Sure it isn't precisely the same as Spoils, but then Chancellor isn't the same as a Silver for a lot of cases. Playing a Chancellor has around the same net effect of playing a Silver; using scaling TfB on a Squire can have around the same net effect of getting a free Spoils.
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KingZog3

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Re: Squire
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2014, 09:43:53 am »
+1

Of course there need to be attack cards worth gaining, and a $6 card worth gaining. I've never seen any of this come into practice because it's just a pain to constantly line up two specific card if unless you already have a good engine going. And if you have a good engine going chance are a real Gold will help more than turn delays of fiddling with Squire and Upgrading them into things.

Maybe I'm wrong. I just have never ever seen this kind of thing be more effective than just buying components.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Squire
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2014, 02:22:10 am »
0

@jomini: Thx for your detailed answer :) I do now understand, in which kind of situations you see squire as a one-shot-gold.
You precisely described the necessary effort to make it work, but it seems to me like you underestimate it:

if your engine can support it, of buying Squire to trash and then feeding the attack to your scaling TfB

I highlighted all the required ingredients, and I agree with KingZog both here:

I've never seen any of this come into practice because it's just a pain

and here:


Maybe I'm wrong. I just have never ever seen this kind of thing be more effective than just buying components.
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Re: Squire
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2014, 02:52:00 am »
0

@jomini: Thx for your detailed answer :) I do now understand, in which kind of situations you see squire as a one-shot-gold.
You precisely described the necessary effort to make it work, but it seems to me like you underestimate it:

if your engine can support it, of buying Squire to trash and then feeding the attack to your scaling TfB

I highlighted all the required ingredients, and I agree with KingZog both here:

I've never seen any of this come into practice because it's just a pain

and here:


Maybe I'm wrong. I just have never ever seen this kind of thing be more effective than just buying components.
I've opened Watchtower on a Goons board with Squire before. So not to produce TfB fodder, but somewhat as a magical one-shot Gold-and-a-bit. And it is rather brutal. I could imagine there's some potential to add a TfB into the mix too in a setup like that.
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KingZog3

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Re: Squire
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2014, 01:44:48 pm »
0

@jomini: Thx for your detailed answer :) I do now understand, in which kind of situations you see squire as a one-shot-gold.
You precisely described the necessary effort to make it work, but it seems to me like you underestimate it:

if your engine can support it, of buying Squire to trash and then feeding the attack to your scaling TfB

I highlighted all the required ingredients, and I agree with KingZog both here:

I've never seen any of this come into practice because it's just a pain

and here:


Maybe I'm wrong. I just have never ever seen this kind of thing be more effective than just buying components.
I've opened Watchtower on a Goons board with Squire before. So not to produce TfB fodder, but somewhat as a magical one-shot Gold-and-a-bit. And it is rather brutal. I could imagine there's some potential to add a TfB into the mix too in a setup like that.

Watchtower is special because it's effect is instant. You don't need to wait a shuffle and line up the two cards. So in the case of Watchtower I agree the on-trash ability is great and can be really useful.
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