Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[perturbator]

Hey all, been lurking for awhile now but I needed to finally sign up in hopes of having a question answered that's been bugging me all night.

If you TR/KC/Procession an Outpost, when exactly do those two cards get cleaned up?


Based on the rulebook/rulings, in my mind it would look something like this:

Normal Turn:
- Play King's Court, choosing Outpost
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: draw only three cards during this turn's clean-up, take an extra turn after this one
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: ..., take an extra turn after this one (2 extra turns total due to accumulation)
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: ..., take an extra turn after this one (3 extra turns total due to accumulation)

- During clean-up phase:
-- Discard cards
--- Outpost still has effects that haven't been resolved (draw only three cards, 3 extra turns) so it and its modifier card (King's Court) stay in play
-- Draw only three cards, satisfying one of Outpost's effects

Attempt to take extra turn:
- succeeds, satisfying one of Outpost's effects

Extra Turn:
- During clean-up phase:
-- Discard cards
--- Outpost still has effects that haven't been resolved (2 extra turns) so it and its modifier card (King's Court) stay in play
-- Draw five cards

Attempt to take extra turn:
- fails, Outpost can only allow two consecutive turns, Outpost has now resolved all of its effects so it and its modifier card (King's Court) are still in play, but will be cleaned up during next turn's clean-up phase


I'm worried that I'm missing something though because I haven't been able to google anything confirming the above behavior. A bit of the opposite in fact, there's a few posts on this forum pertaining to Pin strategies involving KC + Outpost, and they seem to list those two cards getting cleaned up in that extra turn's clean-up phase.

Looking at what Donald said over at BGG (terribly sorry if linking elsewhere is prohibited) http://boardgamegeek.com/article/5397175#5397175 about Outpost not knowing whether it's giving the extra turn until it actually succeeds or fails to do so, the scenario I laid out above seems like it should be correct.


Any help would be greatly appreciated. As I said, this has been bugging me all night and I don't know if I'm being incredibly stupid or if I've missed something quite simple.

[liopoil]

When you king's court a card, you play that card 3 times. So consider it like I have 3 actions and with them play three outposts. Durations are discarded in your next turn's clean-up phase. Outpost turns are turns. So I think you discard the outpost and the king's court after your outpost turn.

Those pins that include outpost and king's court don't include playing the king's court on the outpost, the king's court is being played on a different card.

I -think- this is correct, but I'm not certain.

[Dominionaer]

AFAIK the rule is, durations (and any KC/TR played for them) stay out as long as they have effect in next turn. So if you get extra turn from Outpost, they (or Procession only) stays out and get discarded at end of extra turn - or you get no extra turn from Outpost and then they get discarded at end of this turn.

...
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: ..., take an extra turn after this one (2 extra turns total due to accumulation)
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: ..., take an extra turn after this one (3 extra turns total due to accumulation)

I think, although Outpost may not know, wether one get an extra turn, but it sure knows one does not get accumulated turns from it.

[Simon (DK)]

The rules state, that duration cards stay in play untill they no longer do anything.
When you King's Court an Outpost, it's like playing 3 Outpost, so imagine Having 3 Outposts in play. At the end of your turn, they are all telling you to take an extra turn, so they are all doing something, and none of them gets discarded. They all stay in play, and thus the King's Court used to play Outpost stays in play.

Now for the second turn:
There is 2 parts of the text on Outpost:
The first part is telling you to only draw 3 cards after this turns clean-up. In the 2nd turn you take, it's no longer the turn that this refers to, so that part doesn't matter here.
The second part of the text is take an extra turn (but no more than 2 turns in a row). In the second turn you take, the Outposts know it's your second turn, and you wont get an extra turn afterwards, so this part doesn't matter either.
Therefore in the clean-up phase of the 2nd turn, they are no longer doing anything, and therefore they're discarded (and thus the King's Court is discarded too).

I hope this makes sense.

And btw: the pin that's talked about is probably:
Turn: King's Court - King's Court - Outpost - Masquerade (King's Court and Outpost stays in play, King's Court and Masquerade gets discarded).
Outpost turn: King's Court - Masquerade (Everything gets discarded).

[perturbator]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

In the second turn you take, the Outposts know it's your second turn, and you wont get an extra turn afterwards, so this part doesn't matter either.

Everything does make sense in a way, I'm just having trouble reconciling a couple points. In that BGG link in the original post, Donald had said:

Outpost doesn't "know" it's not giving you an extra turn until the moment it fails to give it to you - to tell that we have to know who took the most recent turn, and we don't until that moment. So you have to leave the Throne Room out. At the point at which the Throned Outpost would give you that 2nd extra turn, it fails to, but not before then.

I guess it boils down to when it's actually trying to give that 2nd extra turn? When does that happen in the sequence of events?

For me it's weird that it'd be as you suggest, that the first extra turn from Outpost will look ahead at the queue and dismiss all other Outpost extra turns because it knows they will fail. It would seem that if the Outpost could intelligently look ahead in one case, then it should be able to in the original case as well (when it's first activated by a TR/KC/Procession) and simply ignore a multi-player.

If it's not too much trouble, and I really hope I'm not coming across as confrontational here because I'm truly just interested in playing Dominion properly, but would you happen to know where I could find the part about "the Outposts know it's your second turn" in the rulebook/FAQ or a forum post?


A simpler example/question may be just imagining having the 3 Outposts in play as you suggested, the turn would look like this:

Normal Turn:
- action phase (somehow you have 3 actions remaining, with 3 outposts in hand):
-- you play your first outpost, setting up two future abilities: 1) draw only three cards during this turn's clean-up phase and 2) add an extra turn to your pool of extra turns (one total extra turns)
-- you play your second outpost, setting up two future abilities: 1) ... 2) add an extra turn to your pool of extra turns (two total extra turns)
-- you play your first outpost, setting up two future abilities: 1) ... 2) add an extra turn to your pool of extra turns (three total extra turns)

- clean-up phase:
-- discard cards
--- all three outposts still have outstanding effects, so they are not discarded and remain in play
-- draw only three cards, satisfying the first outstanding effect of outpost, three extra turns remain in the extra turn pool

when does the game check for the extra turn ability? if it's here, how does it happen exactly?
this is where the logic is breaking down for me I would say:
- do you choose which extra turn to take first since three abilities are activating at the same time? (much in the way that there's a choice between taking a possession extra turn or an outpost extra turn if you've activated them at the same time [double possession with an outpost played during the first possessed turn])
-- if you do get to choose one:
--- do you rectify that one's extra turn caveat of it can only fire if it wouldn't be more than two consecutive turns, and only that one's? or...
--- do you rectify that one's extra turn caveat, and then go looking through the extra turn pool, finding the other outposts in there, and dismissing them because they now know they wouldn't be able to complete after this turn anyway?


Again, thank you for the responses, I really do appreciate the help.



edit: Trying to dig a bit more on my own, the wiki states for Outpost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Outpost) that:

If your opponent plays two (or more) Possessions and makes you play an Outpost during the first Possessed turn, they will get to make you decide when to take the extra turn from Outpost; they can make you take an extra turn with only 3 cards after the first Possessed turn, or they can choose to delay your Outpost turn (and then Outpost does not give you an extra turn since it can't make you take more than two turns in a row.)

If you choose to delay that outpost turn and do the second possession first, what happens to the outpost?
- it would be in play for this second possessed turn regardless, but during this turn's clean-up phase does it...
-- stay in play and not get discarded because it still has the extra turn effect and caveat to take care of once this clean-up phase is done? or...
-- discarded from play, because when you chose to delay the outpost turn, the queue was immediately checked and the outpost's extra turn got dismissed because there's been two consecutive turns already?

[Jack Rudd]

A simpler example/question may be just imagining having the 3 Outposts in play as you suggested, the turn would look like this:

Normal Turn:
- action phase (somehow you have 3 actions remaining, with 3 outposts in hand):
-- you play your first outpost, setting up two future abilities: 1) draw only three cards during this turn's clean-up phase and 2) add an extra turn to your pool of extra turns (one total extra turns)
-- you play your second outpost, setting up two future abilities: 1) ... 2) add an extra turn to your pool of extra turns (two total extra turns)
-- you play your first outpost, setting up two future abilities: 1) ... 2) add an extra turn to your pool of extra turns (three total extra turns)

No, Outpost doesn't work like that. Its effect is "take another turn after this one", not "add an extra turn to your pool of extra turns".

[Simon (DK)]

Yes I see that I made a mistake.
There's doubt, that the right thing to do is leaving Outposts (and TR, KC and/or Procession) out at first and then discarding them in the Outpost turn. The hard part is understanding exactly why this is happening. I thought I had a good reason, it sounded good in my head, but as you point out it isn't good enough. I can see that now.

I've tried some more to come up with a good explanation, but I think we need someone else to explain it better.

I don't know how Possession and Outpost works together. Right now I'm just hoping it wont come up.

[ftl]

The answer is that it works together very badly and confusingly.

It is, I believe, accurately summarised in the "Other Rules Clarification" section of the Outpost wiki page. http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Outpost#Other_Rules_clarifications . It's also something I've never actually had happen in a real game and hope never to encounter.

[perturbator]

No, Outpost doesn't work like that. Its effect is "take another turn after this one", not "add an extra turn to your pool of extra turns".

Do you happen to know why Outpost wouldn't work like that? Its extra turn wording ("Take an extra turn after this one.") is nearly identical to Possession's ("The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one"), and Jeff Wolfe (a lead Dominion play tester) seemed to be saying it was the same in a post over on BGG (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7410499#7410499).

The answer is that it works together very badly and confusingly.

I don't know that it's necessarily really confusing, it seems to just boil down to:

- you determine which extra turn to take, be it an outpost or possession
-- if it is a valid outpost or possession then that type of extra turn is now going to be played out
-- if it is an invalid outpost (already had two or more consecutive turns), it is now flagged for discarding during this turn's clean-up
--- if an invalid outpost was selected and there are still extra turns remaining in the pool, we should go back to the top and determine which extra turn to take

- at this point do we now look at all the remaining extra turns in the pool, be they outposts or possessions, and check to see if they would still be valid given the current game state?
-- if we are allowed to look ahead, then we are able to invalidate all remaining outposts and thus discard them during this turn's clean-up
-- if we aren't allowed to look ahead, then we don't invalidate any remaining outposts and thus can't discard them during this turn's clean-up

It is, I believe, accurately summarised in the "Other Rules Clarification" section of the Outpost wiki page. http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Outpost#Other_Rules_clarifications . It's also something I've never actually had happen in a real game and hope never to encounter.

That wiki link does a great job clearing up a lot of confusion, but I don't think (or at least, I'm not interpreting it properly anywhere) it takes it to the final step of exactly when the Outpost is flagged for discarding.

In another post over on BGG (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/4922144#4922144) Donald has written:

On the Outpost front, Outpost does not look ahead to the future, and does not prevent any extra turns other than its own. At the point at which the Outpost turn would happen, if you just had two turns, you don't get your Outpost turn, and otherwise you do.

Which seems to point to me that every separate outpost extra turn needs to be looked at and invalidated individually when it's called upon to do so, not when we're reaching into the extra turn pool and pulling out a valid one.

[Jeebus]

I think you bring up a great point. At least I can't immediately see anything wrong with your reasoning.

I'm fairly certain that the intention from Donald on how to deal with several Outposts (or TR+Outpost etc) is to leave them all in play until the next turn, and then to discard them all at the end of that turn, just as you would with a single Outpost.

But I really can't see that it would work that way. Lets look at this post, that you've quoted from: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/5397175#5397175
Donald gives an example of a "ridiculous" card that goes "The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, before any other extra turns for other players." Taking this card (let's call it Masochist) as an example, it seems that it has to work like you're describing it:

I play two Outposts. They both stay in play during clean-up. I get an extra turn, during which I play a Masochist. During clean-up in that turn, one Outpost has no more effects and gets discarded. The other one stays, because its extra turn hasn't happened yet. Now you get your extra turn from Masochist, as it will happen before the Outpost turn. After that the second Outpost tries to give me its extra turn. It succeeds. If I had not played the Masochist, the second Outpost would fail at that point (and so would get discarded in the clean-up of my next normal turn).

But as I said I think it's supposed to work like this: If Masochist is played as per above, it's correct as described. But if no Masochist is played, both Outposts get discarded in the clean-up of your first (and only) extra turn. But it's really hard to see how the Outpost knows that a Masochist was played at the moment the Outpost is supposed to be discarded. According to Donald's own words, it fails or succeeds to give an extra turn at the moment when it's supposed to do so, and only because it checks how many consecutive turns you've had, as per the card's text. And that is after the turn, not during clean-up.

[perturbator]

For curiosity's sake, does anybody know/would anybody be willing to check how Goko handles the following situations (in regards to when outpost or its modifier card are cleaned up):

- king's courted outpost
- two outposts played
- 2+ possessions played on your turn, outpost played during the first possessed turn, delay the outpost turn until later

Similarly, can anybody recall how Isotropic handled the above situations?

[werothegreat]

Think about it like this:

When I KC a Wharf, I get this effect:
-+6 Cards and +3 Buys this turn
-+6 Cards and +3 Buys next turn

NOT
-+2 Cards and +1 Buy this turn
-+2/+1 from the duration, and another +2/+1 from playing it again this turn
-+2/+1 from the duration, and another +2/+1 from playing it again this turn
-+2/+1 from the duration

That would just be silly.

So why would Outpost work that way?

KC-Outpost simply tells you three times to take a single extra 3-card turn.  As a reminder, I guess.

[perturbator]

Think about it like this:

When I KC a Wharf, I get this effect:
-+6 Cards and +3 Buys this turn
-+6 Cards and +3 Buys next turn

NOT
-+2 Cards and +1 Buy this turn
-+2/+1 from the duration, and another +2/+1 from playing it again this turn
-+2/+1 from the duration, and another +2/+1 from playing it again this turn
-+2/+1 from the duration

That would just be silly.

So why would Outpost work that way?

KC-Outpost simply tells you three times to take a single extra 3-card turn.  As a reminder, I guess.

I think that's false though, isn't it? When you play a procession/throne room/king's court, you're playing the card X times in order, meaning that you resolve the card fully before playing it the second/third time.

Sure for a wharf the total effect is +6 cards and +3 buys now and on your next turn, but how would you solve a pearl diver? If the card was simply multiplied by 3, you'd get +3 cards, +3 actions, then you'd look at the bottom of your deck three times, putting the card on top or not.

Pearl diver explicitly doesn't work like that though, it's:
- king's court a pearl diver
-- pearl diver gives +1 card, +1 action, now you look at the bottom of your deck and you're allowed to put it on top or back on the bottom
-- pearl diver gives +1 card, +1 action, now you look at the bottom of your deck and you're allowed to put it on top or back on the bottom
-- pearl diver gives +1 card, +1 action, now you look at the bottom of your deck and you're allowed to put it on top or back on the bottom

So when you play the king's court on a wharf, you are also explicitly playing the card three times and not merely multiplying effects:
- king's court on a wharf
-- +2 cards, +1 buy, set up later ability of: at start of next turn, +2 cards, +1 buy
-- +2 cards, +1 buy, set up later ability of: at start of next turn, +2 cards, +1 buy
-- +2 cards, +1 buy, set up later ability of: at start of next turn, +2 cards, +1 buy


Using a king's court, throne room, or procession on an outpost and having both cards stay in play is because it's setting up some effect multiple times. If it wasn't, then the KC/TR/Pro would be discarded during this turn's clean-up phase.

For example, consider a three card hand of Throne Room, Haven, Silver, and you have nothing in your deck or discard pile:
- play throne room, choosing haven
-- haven is played the first time, giving you +1 card (failing because nothing to draw from), +1 action, and you are forced to set the silver aside until next turn when it'll be put back into your hand
-- haven is played the second time, giving you +1 card (failing because nothing to draw from), +1 action, and you fail to set aside a card because you don't have any in hand
--- at this point, throne room is no longer attached to the haven because it isn't doubling its duration effect, so it will be discarded during this turn's clean-up phase (see throne rooming a tactician for reference)
--- haven has successfully set a card aside, so it will be left in play this turn, and discarded during next turn's clean-up phase


Thank you for the response though, and I do apologize if I've missed a crucial rule anywhere.

[Dominionaer]

--- at this point, throne room is no longer attached to the haven because it isn't doubling its duration effect, so it will be discarded during this turn's clean-up phase (see throne rooming a tactician for reference)

Why? Quote rules or Donald's comments!

The TR/KC/Pro don't "know", wich duration get played with them. The durations don't "know", that they get played multiple times. That a durations next turn effect eventually can't  be multiplied, does not matter.

[perturbator]

--- at this point, throne room is no longer attached to the haven because it isn't doubling its duration effect, so it will be discarded during this turn's clean-up phase (see throne rooming a tactician for reference)

Why? Quote rules or Donald's comments!

The TR/KC/Pro don't "know", wich duration get played with them. The durations don't "know", that they get played multiple times. That a durations next turn effect eventually can't  be multiplied, does not matter.

I was referencing the bit in the wiki about throne rooming a tactician, and I do apologize for not including a link to it (here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tactician):

You can Throne Room a Tactician, but you do not get any extra cards (as described above). But, unlike with other Duration cards, the Throne Room is not left in play with the Tactician, since the Tactician's effect is not doubled during your next turn.

The above example for tactician should carry over to haven in my mind, but am I incorrect about that?

- throne room a tactician, with cards in hand
-- tactician is played, all cards in hand are discarded, set up later ability of: at start of next turn, +5 cards, +1 buy, +1 action
-- tactician is played, no cards in hand are discarded, no ability is set up for later
--- tactician is not cleaned up this turn since it still has a duration effect
--- throne room is cleaned up this turn because it isn't doubling tactician's duration effect

- throne room a tactician, with NO cards in hand
-- tactician is played, no cards in hand are discarded, no ability is set up for later
-- tactician is played, no cards in hand are discarded, no ability is set up for later
--- tactician is cleaned up this turn since it has no duration effect
--- throne room is cleaned up this turn because it isn't doubling tactician's duration effect

I see no reason why the above wouldn't be correct for haven as well (in regards to the situation I laid out in my previous post), but I guess I could be missing something here? If the wiki isn't sufficient please let me know and I'll go digging around for some more forum posts hopefully regarding specifically haven, but as of now google isn't treating me very well.

[GendoIkari]

Hmmm, I'm thinking that the wiki is mistaken about that. I could be wrong though... I know that Donald said that a card stays out if it was used to modify a duration card... But did the Throne Room modify the Tactician? I guess I'm not sure... It was used to play the Tactician, so I think that would be enough. But the Tactician's effect wouldn't be modified either....

[Asper]

Hmmm, I'm thinking that the wiki is mistaken about that. I could be wrong though... I know that Donald said that a card stays out if it was used to modify a duration card... But did the Throne Room modify the Tactician? I guess I'm not sure... It was used to play the Tactician, so I think that would be enough. But the Tactician's effect wouldn't be modified either....

If we think about why we let Throne Room stay in play with a Duration, it's as a reminder to double a cards effect - that is, Throne Room will have an effect next turn. Herald and Golem have none, and so they will be discarded.

As Durations stay in play because they have an effect next turn (or at least, like Outpost, after your cleanup), it is plausible that any card this goes for stays in play, and any that doesn't, does not. So my answer is that Throne Room stays in play for the same reason as any Duration, and has to go for the same reason if it doesn't.

Mentioning this in the rulebook would probably be confusing, as players would wonder what other cards than Durations have an effect next turn. Just clarifying a Throne Room rule is easier. I'm still sure normal Actions are no different than Durations in that respect.

TLDR: Lika a Duration, Throne Room only stays in play if it does something at your next turn.

[perturbator]

Hmmm, I'm thinking that the wiki is mistaken about that. I could be wrong though... I know that Donald said that a card stays out if it was used to modify a duration card... But did the Throne Room modify the Tactician? I guess I'm not sure... It was used to play the Tactician, so I think that would be enough. But the Tactician's effect wouldn't be modified either....

The bit about tactician + throne room interaction is also in the FAQ over at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Complete_and_All-Encompassing_Dominion_FAQ#toc36 under 17.3:

If you play a Throne Room on a Tactician, you can't discard any cards the second time, so the Throne Room gets discarded in Clean-up this turn, since it's not modifying the Tactician after this.

There's this post from Donald regarding the interaction as well over on BGG (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/5397101#5397101):

You do not leave out Tactician if it is not actually doing anything on your next turn (and similarly don't leave out a Throne for Tactician).

That quote seems like a bit of a reach for him confirming how the interaction plays out, but I can't quite find any where he specifically says the throne room is discarded during this turn's clean-up phase when you use it on a tactician (where the first play of the tactician is valid, and the second play of the tactician is invalid [no cards left in hand]).

[Dominionaer]

You convinced me! To back up your point, the Seaside rules say:

The Throne Room stays in play to remind you that you are getting the effect of Merchant Ship twice on that next turn.

Since one does not get multiple effect from tactician or outpost, a reminder would be misleading.

[perturbator]

Since one does not get multiple effect from tactician or outpost, a reminder would be misleading.

Minor nitpick here, but you do get multiple effects from outpost, which is why a TR/KC/Procession stays out with it, which was the entire purpose of this thread

[blueblimp]

For curiosity's sake, does anybody know/would anybody be willing to check how Goko handles the following situations (in regards to when outpost or its modifier card are cleaned up):

- king's courted outpost
- two outposts played
- 2+ possessions played on your turn, outpost played during the first possessed turn, delay the outpost turn until later

Similarly, can anybody recall how Isotropic handled the above situations?

I've played the KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade pin on iso, so it cleaned up the KC-Outpost at the end of the Outpost turn. It's an unusual enough case that iso could be wrong, though. I'm convinced by the argument you're making, given the rulings that've been linked in this thread.

[Asper]

Can the instruction to only draw 3 cards at this turns cleanup be considered something Throne Room causes you to do twice? It's a bit like TRing Library - completely useless - but does it still count as an effect? I'd say yes. The TR has no clue if doing the instruction twice makes sense, it just sees it's having an effect - while Tacticians condition and Havens set-aside didn't happen and so their next-turn instruction are clearly not to happen. TR can see that on play (while it could only see Outpost-doubling is senseless "on-resolve").

So i'd say it goes like this:
1. TR Outpost
2. Clean up at clean up
3. Outposts draw instruction isn't yet resolved. You will have to do that instruction twice (it doesn't have a condition), so TR stays in play.
4. Draw up to 3 cards. Do this twice. Second one has no effect.
5. Make your extra turn
6. Clean up during clean-up
7. This turn you won't draw up to only 3 cards, as you allready did that twice during your last turn. (The two instances of the effects are not splitted for two turns.) You'd still make an extra turn, if that was allowed. It isn't, and TR can "see" that now, so Outposts effects have all been resolved. Discard it and Throne Room.
8. Draw 5 cards

Edit (and edited again for clarification): Works a bit different with Possession if 2 or more extra turns smuggle themself in before playing Outpost. There you do your possessed turns, play Outpost during your last extra Possession turn, look at Outpost during cleanup, see you still didn't resolve "Draw up to 3", resolve it, would resolve the extra turn and can't because of Possession (you allready had 2 or more turns in a row). Outpost does stay in play there, too, and is only discarded at your next turn, the normal one. (Which means that "All durations stay in play until the end of the turn in which they have their last effect" is actually wrong. They stay in play until the cleanup after they had their last effect. This only matters for Outpost, though, as it is the only Duration that can cause you to do something the same turn it's played but after cleaning up)

[Dominionaer]

you do get multiple effects from outpost,

Which?

[Dominionaer]

Edit: Works a bit different with Possession, which is because of extra turns smuggeling themself in before resolving the "draw only 3"-instruction. ...

I don't understand that.

Did you mean Outpost and Possession played in same turn?
Then order is

• cleanup with drawing 3 cards
• Outpost turn
• possessed turn of next player
• normal turn of next player

or Outpost made played in possessed turn?
Then order is

• cleanup with drawing 3 cards
• Outpost turn
• normal turn

or Possesion played in Outpost turn?
Then order is

• cleanup with drawing 5 cards
• possessed turn of next player
• normal turn of next player

[Jeebus]

Tactician that didn't make you discard your hand, does not stay in play. Outpost always stays in play.

I'm not so sure that Haven would work like Tactician in that it only stays in play if it has an unresolved effect. I think it's probably more like Outpost. Tactician specifically says "if you discarded", so if you didn't discard, you just don't do the next part of the sentence, so no effect is set up. Haven on the other hand, tells you, no matter what, to do something next turn. The problem is of course that it tells you to put the set-aside card into your hand, and that card might not exist, even at the time you set up this effect. So the question is whether you fail to set up the effect because the card doesn't exist, or whether you set it up and then only see that it doesn't exist at the time you resolve it. I'm guessing the latter, but don't know for sure.

you do get multiple effects from outpost,

Which?

Both of them; drawing three cards at the end of this turn, and getting an extra turn. How this works has been shown in this thread, and there are links to posts from Donald.

(Which means that "All durations stay in play until the end of the turn in which they have their last effect" is actually wrong. They stay in play until the cleanup after they had their last effect. This only matters for Outpost, though, as it is the only Duration that can cause you to do something the same turn it's played but after cleaning up)

The Seaside rulebook does say that: "Leave the card in front of you until the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something (discard it before drawing for the following turn)."

So i'd say it goes like this:
7. This turn you won't draw up to only 3 cards, as you allready did that twice during your last turn. (The two instances of the effects are not splitted for two turns.) You'd still make an extra turn, if that was allowed. It isn't, and TR can "see" that now, so Outposts effects have all been resolved. Discard it and Throne Room.

Why would TR "see" anything? The point that has been made is that the second extra turn has not been resolved yet, so there is no reason that TR+Outpost should be cleaned up. The extra turn will happen after this turn, after clean-up is already done. Only then do you check whether you get the extra turn, because of the condition that it fails if you've already had two consecutive turns. See my example earlier in this thread with Masochist, which is Donald's own example. Nobody has addressed this.

[perturbator]

I'm not so sure that Haven would work like Tactician in that it only stays in play if it has an unresolved effect. I think it's probably more like Outpost. Tactician specifically says "if you discarded", so if you didn't discard, you just don't do the next part of the sentence, so no effect is set up. Haven on the other hand, tells you, no matter what, to do something next turn. The problem is of course that it tells you to put the set-aside card into your hand, and that card might not exist, even at the time you set up this effect. So the question is whether you fail to set up the effect because the card doesn't exist, or whether you set it up and then only see that it doesn't exist at the time you resolve it. I'm guessing the latter, but don't know for sure.

Effects are immediate though. Haven's full effect is:
+1 card, +1 action, (select a card from your hand and set it aside face down), at the start of next turn, put it into your hand

If there is no IT (no card in your hand to choose from), then that specific haven effect (the one that makes it a duration) has failed, and thus throne room is not doubling its effect.

Consider playing a haven on its own. If as you say it's setting up an effect next turn no matter what, then a haven played with no cards in hand (without any modifier) would NOT be discarded during this turn's clean-up.

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Haven

If you have no card in your hand to set aside when you play Haven, you set aside nothing, and clean up Haven at the end of that turn; it does not stay out.

If haven can fail by itself, then it surely can fail on the second throne roomed play, thus leaving haven in play while its modifier throne room is discarded.

See my example earlier in this thread with Masochist, which is Donald's own example. Nobody has addressed this.

I wasn't quite sure how to address this, and it seemed like you were agreeing with me insofar as the logic is concerned. Where you lost me is when you were talking about what was supposed to be happening, because I haven't seen any rules/rulings starting why that would be.

But as I said I think it's supposed to work like this: If Masochist is played as per above, it's correct as described. But if no Masochist is played, both Outposts get discarded in the clean-up of your first (and only) extra turn.

If the hypothetical existence of the masochist card would cause the remaining outpost's extra turn to be really evaluated after the masochist turn (rather than looking ahead when the first outpost extra turn is checked and then played, since it wouldn't know if you're planning on playing a masochist or not...), then there's no reason that the whole situation should be different if we take the hypothetical card out of the equation.

Edit: that paragraph seems jumbled, let me clarify:

Donald gives an example of a "ridiculous" card that goes "The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, before any other extra turns for other players."

Let's say this card (Masochist) exists, it would play out like below:

Normal Turn:
- Play King's Court, choosing Outpost
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: draw only three cards during this turn's clean-up, take an extra turn after this one
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: ..., take an extra turn after this one (2 extra turns total due to accumulation)
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: ..., take an extra turn after this one (3 extra turns total due to accumulation)

- During clean-up phase:
-- Discard cards
--- Outpost still has effects that haven't been resolved (draw only three cards, 3 extra turns) so it and its modifier card (King's Court) stay in play
-- Draw only three cards, satisfying one of Outpost's effects

Attempt to take extra turn:
- succeeds, satisfying one of Outpost's effects (1 extra turn consumed, 2 extra turns remain)

Extra Turn:
- Play Masochist, setting up later ability: the player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, before any other extra turns for other players

- During clean-up phase:
-- Discard cards
--- Outpost still has effects that haven't been resolved (2 extra turns) so it and its modifier card (King's Court) stay in play
-- Draw five cards

Player to the left's extra turn:
- some stuff that has no bearing on the extra turn situation happens here

Attempt to take extra turn:
- succeeds (the last turn was the left player's, this is our first turn in a new sequence), satisfying one of Outpost's effects (1 extra turn consumed, 1 extra turn remains)

Extra Turn:
- During clean-up phase:
-- Discard cards
--- Outpost still has effects that haven't been resolved (1 extra turn) so it and its modifier card (King's Court) stay in play
-- Draw five cards

Attempt to take extra turn:
- succeeds (this will be the second unbroken extra turn in the chain), satisfying one of Outpost's effects (1 extra turn consumed, no extra turn remains, Outpost and its modifier card of King's Court are now flagged for discarding during this upcoming turn's clean-up phase)

Extra Turn:
- During clean-up phase:
-- Discard cards
--- Outpost and its modifier card of King's Court are now discarded since there are no longer any effects tied to this card remaining
-- Draw five cards

(play continues as normal)



If we were to remove the hypothetical card and thus the bolded Masochist bits, then everything else about the situation should remain the same (see the original post of this thread for how that would play out).

I don't think Outpost can have it both ways, even if the hypothetical card will never exist. Either:
a) when one outpost extra turn is being checked and applied, the rest of them are allowed to be nullified at this precise moment in time (thus masochist as worded above would never be able to break up two+ queued outpost extra turns)
b) the outpost extra turns are only ever nullified when they're attempted to be taken (thus masochist could actually work as it's been laid out above)

I find the strongest support for b) based on Donald's quote involving the hypothetical masochist card (here on BGG: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/5397175#5397175):

Outpost doesn't "know" it's not giving you an extra turn until the moment it fails to give it to you - to tell that we have to know who took the most recent turn, and we don't until that moment. So you have to leave the Throne Room out. At the point at which the Throned Outpost would give you that 2nd extra turn, it fails to, but not before then.

[Asper]

or Outpost made played in possessed turn?
Then order is

• cleanup with drawing 3 cards
• Outpost turn
• normal turn

I should have added that you have to be possessed twice for the Outpost problem. In this case the opponent may make you play an Outpost during your second possessed turn, forcing you to draw only three cards at its cleanup. As Outpost cannot make you have a third turn in a row, you will be forced to do your normal turn with a three-card hand.

[Asper]

Why would TR "see" anything? The point that has been made is that the second extra turn has not been resolved yet, so there is no reason that TR+Outpost should be cleaned up. The extra turn will happen after this turn, after clean-up is already done. Only then do you check whether you get the extra turn, because of the condition that it fails if you've already had two consecutive turns. See my example earlier in this thread with Masochist, which is Donald's own example. Nobody has addressed this.

I read your older post and admit it makes sense. Outpost is worded "all-knowingly". If you are possessed, play Outpost, take that turn and then your normal one, Outpost actually causes you to take more than two turns in a row, which it claims it can't. This happens because the card has to check for its extra turn when it's time for it, just like any other card.

In other words, i accept your argumentation and conclude that trying to do an extra turn is enough to keep Outpost in play.

So it goes like this:
1. TR Outpost
2. Play turn
3. Cleanup
4. Draw up to 3 cards (twice).
5. Try to do extra turn, can
6. Do extra turn
7. Cleanup
8. Checking for extra turn has not yet been resolved, and as Outpost cannot possibly "know" whether it will succeed, it and Throne Room stay in play
9. Draw up to 5 cards
10. Fail to take extra turn, game goes on with Outpost and Throne Room still in play.
11. other players play
12. Do next turn
13. Cleanup
14. Discard Outpost and Throne Room

Another question: Is there an official ruling whether Possession or Outpost has to be resolved first? Otherwise you could actually do that Masochist thing, playing two Outposts and a Possession in one turn. Answered, thanks.

[perturbator]

Another question: Is there an official ruling whether Possession or Outpost has to be resolved first? Otherwise you could actually do that Masochist thing, playing two Outposts and a Possession in one turn.

Possession and outpost interaction is covered on http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Outpost

A possession and outpost extra turn are the same thing (outpost has a caveat attached, but they've been ruled to be the same effect basically). When you're asked to resolve the same effect you get to choose which one happens first. Remember that this happens in turn order, so if you play an outpost and a possession on your turn, the outpost turn has to come first because it's affecting you (you're #1 in turn order at the moment) and the possession turn comes after it because it's affecting someone else (#2 in turn order for this example).

If you play a double+ possession, then during their possessed turn play an outpost, you get to decide which comes first (whether the outpost turn is valid or not) because they're both the same effect (extra turn) and they're both affecting the same player.

[Asper]

Remember that this happens in turn order, so if you play an outpost and a possession on your turn, the outpost turn has to come first because it's affecting you (you're #1 in turn order at the moment) and the possession turn comes after it because it's affecting someone else (#2 in turn order for this example).

Thanks, that was exactly what i was looking for. I thought i had read something like it before, but i couldn't find it.

[Jeebus]

Effects are immediate though. Haven's full effect is:
+1 card, +1 action, (select a card from your hand and set it aside face down), at the start of next turn, put it into your hand

If there is no IT (no card in your hand to choose from), then that specific haven effect (the one that makes it a duration) has failed, and thus throne room is not doubling its effect.

Consider playing a haven on its own. If as you say it's setting up an effect next turn no matter what, then a haven played with no cards in hand (without any modifier) would NOT be discarded during this turn's clean-up.

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Haven

If you have no card in your hand to set aside when you play Haven, you set aside nothing, and clean up Haven at the end of that turn; it does not stay out.

If haven can fail by itself, then it surely can fail on the second throne roomed play, thus leaving haven in play while its modifier throne room is discarded.

Absolutely, I was considering the case of one Haven "failing" and the case of TR+Haven "failing" the second time, as equal. If the first case doesn't cause Haven to stay in play then the second case doesn't cause TR to stay in play. But I'm not sure that not having a card to set aside, means that you don't set up an effect. Tactician is unambiguous; it doesn't even tell you to set up an effect if you don't discard. Haven always tells you to. I see that the wiki says that the Haven doesn't stay, but no source is given. The Seaside rulebook doesn't mention it. I can't see that this can be resolved without a quote from Donald.

See my example earlier in this thread with Masochist, which is Donald's own example. Nobody has addressed this.

I wasn't quite sure how to address this, and it seemed like you were agreeing with me insofar as the logic is concerned. Where you lost me is when you were talking about what was supposed to be happening, because I haven't seen any rules/rulings starting why that would be.

Yes, I was agreeing with you. I was making two points. First, what is supposed to happen, according to Donald's own words. See the post I linked to. Second, that logically I can find no fault with your argument, meaning that Donald's intention doesn't seem to be what logically happens. And I was using the example of Masochist to illustrate this.

So, since we agree about this, I didn't go through the rest of your post. I assume that it's correct.

[perturbator]

But I'm not sure that not having a card to set aside, means that you don't set up an effect. Tactician is unambiguous; it doesn't even tell you to set up an effect if you don't discard. Haven always tells you to. I see that the wiki says that the Haven doesn't stay, but no source is given. The Seaside rulebook doesn't mention it. I can't see that this can be resolved without a quote from Donald.

The reason that haven fails, in my mind anyway, is that the IT in the text needs to refer to something for that next turn effect to actually be valid, meaning the haven card itself would stay in play only if it's doing something next turn. I believe this is the exact same reasoning for ironworks providing no bonus if you trader the gained card in for a silver.

I was able to scrounge up a direct quote about haven and no card however:

Does the "until the end of the turn in which they have effect" clause mean that, if I play Haven but have no cards to draw and my hand is empty, I should clean up Haven at the end of that turn?

Yes.

[Jeebus]

I was able to scrounge up a direct quote about haven and no card however:

Does the "until the end of the turn in which they have effect" clause mean that, if I play Haven but have no cards to draw and my hand is empty, I should clean up Haven at the end of that turn?

Yes.

Okay, that settles it then. Thanks. I'll add it to the FAQ eventually.