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Author Topic: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?  (Read 13785 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2013, 08:06:50 am »
0

PPE: Davio's card is another example of a horrible card to print which probably *does* take a lot of the skill out of the game.
Depends on the costs.  I mean he has a point in that many "overpowered" cards simply change the game, see Chapel, Goons, Witch. 
Of course that does not work automatically, or better what the game is changed into is not automatically interesting, but say you would give it a costs of $40, this would just be a card like Goons that strongly(?) favours engines over the other type of decks.
Well, true. If it costs enough, it won't take skill out of the game so much as sit there dead.
I wanted to make an argument similar to Rando-Chess in which the loser of a regular chess game rolls a fair die and wins on a 6. This increases luck, but doesn't take out skill completely. You still have a higher chance of winning by being better at regular chess. Likewise, if you're better at regular Dominion, you'll likely be able to buy that winning card sooner than your opponent or you can judge better whether it's actually worth it to go for it instead of trying to pile-drive something.
I wasn't claiming that it takes *all* of the skill out, just that it takes the ever-ambiguous amount 'a lot' of skill out the game.

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2013, 09:30:10 am »
0

On that note, would you argue that Tournament, which creates a sort of sub-goal, takes skill out of the game? And how do you quantify this amount?
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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2013, 10:18:43 am »
0

Like even in magic formats that allow proxies, things like Black Lotus are banned, because they're too powerful.
ISTR reading "Shahrazad" was banned because it made game too long to play, rather than because it was too powerful. Any Dominion equivalent? Kings Court+Possession, perhaps?

Shahrazard is a bit of a special case. It forces you to play a subgame with your remaining cards, for a small (well, large relative to its cost) benefit. The issue is, that subgame is likely to take as long as a current game is to finish, AND it requires extra space, AND you can start nesting them. I forget what the limit of duplicates is in Magic, think it's 4, but even without any cards to get things back from your graveyard, you could do this:

Main game
-Shah 1
--Shah 1.2
---Shah 1.2.3
----Shah 1.2.3.4
-----End Shah 1.2.3.4
----End Shah 1.2.3
---Shah 1.2.4
----Shah 1.2.4.3
-----End Shah 1.2.4.3
----End Shah 1.2.4
---End Shah 1.2
--Shah 1.3
---Shah 1.3.2
----Shah 1.3.2.4

And so on. Yeah, each subgame gets a little quicker, but in terms of space needed explosion and potential to massively increase game length, it's just not acceptable.

I don't think there's anything that really comes close in Dominion. Almost always, Dominion works towards a fixed end - piles running out - and very few things progress your position without advancing towards that end. The only real possibility is a perfectly reliable Monument based Golden Deck stalemate, where e.g. the game is close to piling, both of you earn the same points, the score is close enough that each player takes the lead on their own turn, and nobody can add any more useful cards for fear of ending the game. And... that's a LOT of conditions on what has to happen, before even looking for kingdoms where it could be possible. I guess there might be a few more edge cases where it happens, but you know eh.

The only other case where the time it takes could be too large is if the time spent playing cards compared to the rate of working towards the end of game is too low. By which I mean e.g. a lot of cards are played, but only 1-2 cards are taken from the supply each turn. It's hard to imagine something like this really happening, though.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Kirian

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2013, 10:58:34 am »
+4

Oh, Come On, Really?
$6 -- Action

+1 Action
Play a full game of Through the Ages, Advanced Civilization, or Axis and Allies (your choice).  If you win, $4.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2013, 01:23:16 pm »
0

On that note, would you argue that Tournament, which creates a sort of sub-goal, takes skill out of the game? And how do you quantify this amount?
First, just because I can't quantify something doesn't mean it can't be quantified, and much more importantly, just because something can't be quantified doesn't mean it isn't real or important.

In any case, overall, I would guess that tournament probably adds some skill, though a very very small amount.

The main issue with your card is that the main strategic struggles of the game are speed vs longevity and managing at what point you want to get things (i.e. green cards - you want them eventually, but you don't want them to clog you up). In order to win, you invariably have to manage these things - will I go for the deck that gets to 4 provinces quickest? Or should I have more of an eye to all the other points which are on the board?
Your card, if cheap enough, subverts both of these things by just saying 'go for me, as fast as you possibly can. There is no downside'. It has absolutely unlimited power, and this is a bad thing. Now, if it is priced somewhere in the right range, it can also add some skill - What is the quickest way to hit $X, and will I be fast enough to get it before the game ends? The problem is, I don't think this is ever gong to be enough. Whatever price point, the number of games where you clearly clearly want it or clearly clearly don't is going to over-weigh the interesting decisions it might create.

Jack Rudd

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2013, 01:36:42 pm »
+1

Oh, Come On, Really?
$6 -- Action

+1 Action
Play a full game of Through the Ages, Advanced Civilization, or Axis and Allies (your choice).  If you win, $4.
I play Possession, make you play this card, and then resign the game of TtA on turn 1. :D
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liopoil

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2013, 01:46:01 pm »
0

so does he. It's a race to who can resign first! or if that's not allowed, who can play the worst!
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Schlippy

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2013, 02:38:30 pm »
+1

I personally like the card idea of:

Domception, cost: (6)
Play a subgame of Dominion with the remaining cards for two turns. All Victory cards gained by the players are set aside instead of discarded and turned back to their respective piles after the subgame. All Action cards played during the subgame are terminal and do not give any Actions. If you win the subgame: Gain a Province. Otherwise, gain a Duchy.
------
When you play this during a subgame: Gain a Gold.
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I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

Witherweaver

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2013, 03:06:24 pm »
0

I personally like the card idea of:

Domception, cost: (6)
Play a subgame of Dominion with the remaining cards for two turns. All Victory cards gained by the players are set aside instead of discarded and turned back to their respective piles after the subgame. All Action cards played during the subgame are terminal and do not give any Actions. If you win the subgame: Gain a Province. Otherwise, gain a Duchy.
------
When you play this during a subgame: Gain a Gold.

Misconception $6, action
Your opponent gets one more turn, and then the game ends.  At the end of that turn, the player with the least amount of Victory Points wins.

Interception $6, reaction
When opponent would gain a Victory card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, discard your hand and you gain that Victory card instead of your opponent.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 03:08:01 pm by Witherweaver »
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eHalcyon

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2013, 03:25:03 pm »
+1

Conception
$400,000 - Victory
This is worth VP equal to however much you think it is worth.
--
When you gain this, disappear from f.ds for 18 years.




(source)
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2013, 06:39:44 pm »
+1

Oh, Come On, Really?
$6 -- Action

+1 Action
Play a full game of Through the Ages, Advanced Civilization, or Axis and Allies (your choice).  If you win, $4.

This reminds me of Risktego, in which the players play a game of Risk where for each battle, instead of rolling dice, a game of Stratego is played. I always wanted to play an ongoing game but none of my roommates would ever take me up on it.

There's also Inception Risk, in which the players play a game of Risk where for each battle, a game of Risk is played. And its iterative variant, in which for each battle, a game of Inception Risk is played.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2013, 06:44:34 pm »
0

Conception
$400,000 - Victory
This is worth VP equal to however much you think it is worth.
--
When you gain this, disappear from f.ds for 18 years.




(source)

That figure is silly. They adjust for future inflation as if wages will not rise with it. If wages rise with inflation, the cost is less than $100k in today's dollars. Of course, that doesn't include important non-basic costs such as post-secondary education...
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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2013, 06:50:13 pm »
0

Oh, Come On, Really?
$6 -- Action

+1 Action
Play a full game of Through the Ages, Advanced Civilization, or Axis and Allies (your choice).  If you win, $4.
I play Possession, make you play this card, and then resign the game of TtA on turn 1. :D

Don't be silly. You can't resign until you have a political phase, which is turn 3. Not to mention, you can make all choices for your opponent during that game and see all cards they can see... Mmm...
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Kirian

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2013, 08:08:49 pm »
0

Oh, Come On, Really?
$6 -- Action

+1 Action
Play a full game of Through the Ages, Advanced Civilization, or Axis and Allies (your choice).  If you win, $4.

This reminds me of Risktego, in which the players play a game of Risk where for each battle, instead of rolling dice, a game of Stratego is played. I always wanted to play an ongoing game but none of my roommates would ever take me up on it.

Now I want to play Riskminion.
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liopoil

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2013, 08:11:31 pm »
0

Oh, Come On, Really?
$6 -- Action

+1 Action
Play a full game of Through the Ages, Advanced Civilization, or Axis and Allies (your choice).  If you win, $4.

This reminds me of Risktego, in which the players play a game of Risk where for each battle, instead of rolling dice, a game of Stratego is played. I always wanted to play an ongoing game but none of my roommates would ever take me up on it.

There's also Inception Risk, in which the players play a game of Risk where for each battle, a game of Risk is played. And its iterative variant, in which for each battle, a game of Inception Risk is played.
wait, but the odds aren't supposed to be 50-50 for each roll of the die... even with 3v2, which is the majority of the rolls, the attacker has a slight advantage. So how does this work?
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2013, 10:05:17 pm »
0

Oh, Come On, Really?
$6 -- Action

+1 Action
Play a full game of Through the Ages, Advanced Civilization, or Axis and Allies (your choice).  If you win, $4.

This reminds me of Risktego, in which the players play a game of Risk where for each battle, instead of rolling dice, a game of Stratego is played. I always wanted to play an ongoing game but none of my roommates would ever take me up on it.

There's also Inception Risk, in which the players play a game of Risk where for each battle, a game of Risk is played. And its iterative variant, in which for each battle, a game of Inception Risk is played.
wait, but the odds aren't supposed to be 50-50 for each roll of the die... even with 3v2, which is the majority of the rolls, the attacker has a slight advantage. So how does this work?

War has evolved such that defensive positions are equally strong as offensive.
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liopoil

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2013, 07:15:46 am »
0

woah, that totally changes the game!
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Witherweaver

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2013, 09:22:04 am »
+6

My house rules for Bridge are that every time you play it, you have to win a side game of bridge to get the cost-reduction benefit.  It really discourages those KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge megaturns.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2013, 01:29:38 pm »
0

Oh, Come On, Really?
$6 -- Action

+1 Action
Play a full game of Through the Ages, Advanced Civilization, or Axis and Allies (your choice).  If you win, $4.

This reminds me of Risktego, in which the players play a game of Risk where for each battle, instead of rolling dice, a game of Stratego is played. I always wanted to play an ongoing game but none of my roommates would ever take me up on it.

There's also Inception Risk, in which the players play a game of Risk where for each battle, a game of Risk is played. And its iterative variant, in which for each battle, a game of Inception Risk is played.
wait, but the odds aren't supposed to be 50-50 for each roll of the die... even with 3v2, which is the majority of the rolls, the attacker has a slight advantage. So how does this work?

I've never played, but it seems like there are ways to make it work... I'd say the person with the Risk advantage should have a similar Stratego advantage: after setup, but before the game begins, they get to randomly select and see the value of one piece on their opponent's board for every X numerical attack advantage they have in the game of Risk. You'd need to playtest to find the right balance, but as a starting idea, try just one piece for each extra army. I.e. in a 7v3 attack, you'd get to pick to reveal four pieces on your opponent's Stratego board...

I think it could work. And would be crazy and take forever. But that's not a reason to rule it out.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2013, 06:11:28 pm »
+5

My house rules for Bridge are that every time you play it, you have to win a side game of bridge to get the cost-reduction benefit.  It really discourages those KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge megaturns.

And to win a Tournament, you need to win an actual medieval tournament. Makes Tournament games much less luck-driven.
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LastFootnote

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2013, 10:56:21 pm »
+1

And to win a Tournament, you need to win an actual medieval tournament. Makes Tournament games much less luck-driven.

Does it?
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Witherweaver

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2013, 11:04:33 am »
0

My house rules for Bridge are that every time you play it, you have to win a side game of bridge to get the cost-reduction benefit.  It really discourages those KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge megaturns.

And to win a Tournament, you need to win an actual medieval tournament. Makes Tournament games much less luck-driven.

Don't be silly, that's not the rule.  The rule is to win a Tournament, you have to go to Midieval Times and your knight has to win.
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Kirian

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2013, 12:46:42 pm »
+2

My house rules for Bridge are that every time you play it, you have to win a side game of bridge to get the cost-reduction benefit.  It really discourages those KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge megaturns.

And to win a Tournament, you need to win an actual medieval tournament. Makes Tournament games much less luck-driven.

Don't be silly, that's not the rule.  The rule is to win a Tournament, you have to go to Midieval Times and your knight has to win.



Excellent!
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2013, 07:29:01 pm »
0

[pedant]

In the movie Inception, the term "inception" referred not to the nested dream-within-a-dream structure, but to the act of implanting an idea within the mind of the dreamer.

[/pedant]

Although I guess this is acceptable common usage, and most of you probably realize that. So never mind.
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theory

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Re: What would it take for a card or combo to be banned?
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2013, 11:32:39 pm »
0

I always thought it was just a reference to the movie, or the idea that you had to go "one level deeper" (so as to implant the idea).
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