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WanderingWinder

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Counterfeit
« on: June 08, 2013, 03:10:34 pm »
+15

Counterfeit

The most obvious comparison for counterfeit is moneylender (well, maybe throne room or procession, but it obviously plays way differently from them). Indeed, let's look at this. There are some type considerations (throne room, conspirator, venture, bank), but generally the differences in terms of copper trashing are these:

Moneylender is terminal. Counterfeit can't even be drawn dead.
Counterfeit gives a +buy.
Moneylender costs $4. Counterfeit costs $5.

Now, moneylender is a sort of mediocre 4-cost. It's not really a bad card, but it's not strong by any means. This is definitely better to have, so it rightly costs 5+, but you would think that it would not be too swell, given that the 4-to-5 price jump is the most important in the game. But that would only be true if Counterfeit could only be used as a moneylender. Of course, it's quite a bit better than that.


The next comparison I want to look at is salvager. Later in the game, counterfeit is very similar to a slightly better salvager-for-only-treasures. Counterfeiting a silver gives 5, whereas salvaging would only net 3. On gold, it's 7 vs 6. Platinum - 11 instead of 9. Of course, you can't trash actions or victory cards (or curses or hovels) with counterfeit. But again, it's a treasure instead of a terminal action, and it of course does MUCH better at copper-trashing than salvager.


There's of course some other uses for counterfeit, and some tactical decisions. Specialty treasures can give you double benefit. You can get the double-potion you want to end a vineyards game, or grab the last of the scrying pools or what have you. You can double Horn of Plenty to get two things, particularly nice if gaining victory cards (just remember that your HoP won't be able to count itself on the second play). It can make zany amounts of cash with bank. It just gives you lots of free coin out of your spoils, since you'd be losing them anyway (and they aren't even trashed, since they're already back in the supply!)

To follow-up on this, one draw-back of the card is that you don't get the in-play benefits of several treasures - royal seal and talisman are all less-than stellar as overpriced silver and copper, respectively.


Also, you can generally play counterfeit as copper-with-plus-buy. While this is not very good, it can be useful in some situations (where you've gotten the card for something else). Most often, this will come up when you're going for basically a treasureless deck - you still get a little benefit from your counterfeits, unlike what you'd have from moneylender or spice merchant. Occasionally, you also just won't want to trash something else. Maybe you're playing in a slog and want coppers (unlikely, given that you've got a counterfeit, but maybe a duchy was swindled into it and there aren't any swindlers left in your opponent's deck or the supply). This is  a slightly better copper. More likely, trashing a silver or gold won't let you buy anything better, and you still want them for later. You generally shouldn't be very afraid to trash those cards, but there are little segments of time in some games where this will fit. The flexibility is nice. And because there's a "may" thrown in, you never *have* to trash anything.

Of course, there's the question of 'what happens if you counterfeit a counterfeit'. Fortunately, it's really straightforward - you play the first one, giving you a coin and an extra buy, then you play the second one twice - this will give you 2 more coins and 2 more buys and the opportunity to trash and double two more treasures from your hand. You have to trash the second one, though, so this is *usually* not the greatest option, unless you *really* need the extra $1 or extra 1 buy - the exact same options of other treasures to trash are available either way.


Most normally, the flexibility of the different modes makes counterfeit a quite strong card. The obvious use for it is in engines, where it trashes coppers out of your way early, gives +buy, and pulls in a few big cash turns later. This is pretty much just what an engine likes, so it's obviously a pretty good card here. However, its real strength (I think) is in big money decks. Yup, money decks. Particularly those where the key non-treasure card costs something like $4, and particularly when we're talking terminal draw BM. Smithy, eat your heart out. Why? Well, usually engines have things they want to do on 5. Most of them will want one or two of these, but it won't be *that* big a bump. It is, however, a pretty huge bump over the silver that a lot of BM decks have. The trick is in trashing the right thing, and for that, you just need a very good feel of when you need to aggressively green, and when you still need to be building.

The card's only real weaknesses are that it costs 5, and in slogs. It just doesn't do much at all for you in slogs, and while you often want to do something else on 5 anyway, this is even moreso the case in slog-land.

Works with:
Big Money
Engines
Most any kind of normal deck, where the first one is most usually preferable to gold

Conflicts with:
Junking attacks
Hoard (sort of - the extra golds to go through are very nice)
Royal Seal
Quarry (sort of - this still gives +buy and thinning, not bad for actions)
Talisman
A few power 5s
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 04:01:09 pm by WanderingWinder »
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DG

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2013, 03:24:24 pm »
+1

Very good. I expect however the counterfeit will work very well with hoard as long as you don't use counterfeit upon the hoard itself. The same argument could possibly be used for quarry as well. Spoils may be worth a mention since you lose nothing when playing the counterfeit with a spoils.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 03:27:27 pm by DG »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2013, 03:42:27 pm »
+1

One place you can't avoid this is with 2 counterfeits in hand. There's no way to play one of them without trashing some treasure card at least.

Counterfeit says "you may play a treasure".  You may decline to play a treasure with your Counterfeit, and then continue playing them as usual.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 03:44:20 pm by SirPeebles »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2013, 03:56:15 pm »
0

Very good. I expect however the counterfeit will work very well with hoard as long as you don't use counterfeit upon the hoard itself. The same argument could possibly be used for quarry as well. Spoils may be worth a mention since you lose nothing when playing the counterfeit with a spoils.
Good points! I do have something in there about the spoils, but I can make it more explicit.
One place you can't avoid this is with 2 counterfeits in hand. There's no way to play one of them without trashing some treasure card at least.

Counterfeit says "you may play a treasure".  You may decline to play a treasure with your Counterfeit, and then continue playing them as usual.
Wow, I feel like an idiot. Does goko just have this wrong? Or am I just really really stupid? Maybe I just had my mind stuck on throne room....


Making appropriate changes.

SirPeebles

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2013, 04:06:15 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure Goko does it correctly.  I think you have an option to press "done" when you play Counterfeit to not trash a treasure.
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Fabian

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2013, 05:18:01 pm »
+9

I've always secretly laughed at people who got card text wrong, because, like, how is that even possible? It's right there!

Then a few days ago, after getting crushed by the card a billion times on goko without understanding why, I finally realized you get the extra bonus from Ironmonger regardless of whether you discard the card or not. Oops!
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jomini

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2013, 06:31:24 pm »
+1

Another card I like to use for comparison is Loan. Loan is normally one coin less, no +buy and has some good and bad going for it with cycling. Even going from 3 to 5, Cntrft does end up with a smaller search space but its late game utility is vastly greatly. Like Loan, Cntrft is extremely good with cantrip style decks - not needing an action can let you both build up engine value/reliability and have a single strong power terminal - Militia, Altar, Outpost, Rabble, etc.

An example of very strong combo like that is with Goons decks. With no villages you can trash the copper you buy for point padding each turn and reliably Goons every turn with only one terminal in deck. Better still, Cntrft can allow you to get value out of the copper as you trash it ... and on your final turn you get an extra +buy to pump up points. Even when you have villages, Cntrft makes life a lot easier unless you are just swimming in actions, but it is can particularly strong when you have really limited actions, but potential for strong Goons - e.g. Xroads/Lab/Goons, Necro/Stables.


I haven't won 2er with it yet, but I think Cntrft might be the rare card that can combo with Countinghouse. Yeah you need time to bulk up your deck and Cntrft doesn't help you gain coppers (until you use Cntrft on itself) ... but in 4er with other people playing attacks I think you might be able start hitting double province turns quick enough to win out. I'd be interested to see if it can work in 2er with players more skilled than I, but I doubt it.

A fun combo is Cntrft/Market square. Like with Hoard, a steady supply of Gold gets you easy provinces and the Gold keeps regenerating thanks to Market square. I've won quick with a 5/2 start and I think it make be fast enough to go even without other trashing and just about any other trashing makes it fly (Lookout worked for me). Terminal draw/Cntrft/Mrksqr is also blindingly good - dead drawing doesn't matter so much and you can much more quickly swap from copper trashing to Gold trashing. Pretty much all the gold gaining cards work well with Cntrft - Cntrft thins the deck so collisions are easier to line up (e.g. Tourney and Province, Explorer and Province, Transmute & Green) and then you need just one copper to buy a province a turn. Now I wouldn't buy Transmute just to set this up, but if I have a spare potion buy, I think it should work quite well - trash 3 Estates for Golds, Cntrft them 3 times for provinces, and then eke at a province or two from the rest of the deck.

One of the power 5's I'm pretty convinced doesn't work is Minion. Here Cntrft plays just a terminal (stop the Minion chain it you want to play it) and you have to pair it up with an ever decreasing supply of copper to get much use out of it.

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Warfreak2

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2013, 06:54:25 pm »
0

Often you can continually feed good treasures to Counterfeit throughout the game, because they're easy to replace. Market Square, Tunnel and Hoard are good sources of Gold to feed to Counterfeit; Counterfeit activates Market Square by itself. Trader can help, Silver is nice fuel too. Haggling Colony->Platinum, Province->Gold or Duchy->Silver means Haggler + Counterfeit + that treasure is sufficient to buy another copy of that victory card.
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Titandrake

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2013, 07:32:37 pm »
+2

Jack-Counterfeit seems especially strong. Jack gets rid of the Estates, Counterfeit gets rid of the Coppers, and then Counterfeit gets money out of the Silver you gain to give you big hands.

Sample log: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130601/log.50f1ceeee4b05073b7360069.1370152330051.txt
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Qvist

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2013, 04:41:34 am »
+3

Counterfeit is one of my favourite Dark Ages cards. Its flexibility makes it really good. On many boards I get it with my first $5 and even $6 what makes this card I think one of the power $5s (close below Top 10) although I can see why some disagree with me. Copper trashing without having a loss of money and therefore tempo (beside the buy of Counterfeit of course) and not only being non-terminal, no you can't even draw it dead!. Compare it with Upgrade. It's great in Copper-thinning because it's non-terminal, but you can draw it dead and you still lose tempo because you don't get a benefit in trashing the Copper (beside the +1 Card which is only better after a while). Also it gives a +Buy which is very important, more important that you might think. You usually want it to thin your deck which mostly means you're playing an engine board. And the +Buy on engine boards is really important. Again, it's not only non-terminal, it's a treasure card, so you can't draw it dead and non-terminal +Buy is already very strong in engine boards what makes it even better. This means, on engine boards you have trashing and +Buy combined in one card, two crucial things!

I agree that it works in BM decks although I think it's not as strong in BM decks. I wouldn't buy it over Gold, but if you get exactly $5 in your second of third reshuffle and don't want your second terminal action yet or have it already, Counterfeit's a very good buy. It trashes some Coppers while Counterfeit behaves like a Silver, a Silver you would have bought anyway instead. And you can trash your Silvers and Gold as acceleration in the end game.

Regarding some interactions with other cards:

In comboes with Vineyard. You can thin out your deck to get even a higher action density what you want when you go for Vineyards and you can later in the game Counterfeit your Potion to buy two Vineyards guaranteed what means that it replaces a Potion that you otherwise needed to buy. I don't think it generally comboes with Potion, but getting rid of a Potion that you don't need anymore and buy two Potion cost cards can be really nice (University comes to my mind here).

I disagree that it doesn't combo with Quarry as already pointed out. I would even call it a combo although you don't want to play Counterfeit on Quarry. Quarry likes engines and +Buys and Counterfeit likes engines too and offers trashing and the +Buy, great! Even if you draw only Quarry and Counterfeit, Counterfeit reads basically +3$, +1 Buy as you don't need to trash a treasure card.

Counterfeit comboes with Market Square. Trash Coppers to trigger Market Square to get a Gold and later trash some Golds while getting them beck.
It synergizes well in a Minion stack similar to Upgrade.

brokoli

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2013, 06:42:33 am »
+1

My problem with ventures is the tactical decisions : counterfeit the copper for a better long-term deck or counterfeit the gold to get that province ? I would like to know more about this...
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loppo

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2013, 07:41:38 am »
0

as a general rule of thumb, thrash copper in single digit turns, and once you reach double digit turns you start trashing the big things.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2013, 08:22:41 am »
+11

as a general rule of thumb, thrash copper in single digit turns, and once you reach double digit turns you start trashing the big things.

I only trash Copper on prime-numbered turns.
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Titandrake

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 04:45:05 am »
0

Here's an interesting game where I use Counterfeit as Copper+Buy a couple times.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130611/log.50a208ebe4b0058ff63ee808.1370940018739.txt
Most of my treasure is trashed by Mercenaries, so I often don't have a target, or don't need the money. But I want the +Buy for Peddlers. The only other +buy is Tact.
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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 05:02:58 am »
+1

Yep. Sometimes, you just need +Buy, and it doesn't matter what you get it from.
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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 07:21:45 am »
+4

Yep. Sometimes, you just need +Buy, and it doesn't matter what you get it from.

Sounds like someone is starting a page for Herbalist.

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2014, 07:55:23 am »
0

Oh, pinging old threads fun!  ::) (sorry mods)
I think this should go to the wiki as the wiki currently says there wouldn't be an article about Counterfeit?
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DG

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2014, 09:08:23 am »
0

Before it goes to the wiki ....

There are some things to avoid with counterfeit. The first is trashing too much treasure before an extended endgame. If duchies or alt vp prolong the game then your deck can become poverty stricken, particularly if you are trashing your better treasures to keep a competitive score. The second thing to avoid is building a mixed deck with poor drawing that might have no other treasures in hand with counterfeit, or no choice of treasures. Assuming that you've been trashing out the copper, you may need to put some high cost treasures back into the deck if you want income from counterfeit in the end game. The third thing to avoid is the vanishing economy. If you are trashing out coppers so that you can draw reliably draw your whole deck, then once the engine is built the trashed copper is a lost +1 coin each turn. You need to balance your income before it is all gone.
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BadAssMutha

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2014, 09:42:00 am »
0

Quote
I haven't won 2er with it yet, but I think Cntrft might be the rare card that can combo with Countinghouse. Yeah you need time to bulk up your deck and Cntrft doesn't help you gain coppers (until you use Cntrft on itself) ... but in 4er with other people playing attacks I think you might be able start hitting double province turns quick enough to win out. I'd be interested to see if it can work in 2er with players more skilled than I, but I doubt it.

I don't understand this at all. How does Counterfeit help Counting House, exactly? It gets rid of your copper for an extra $1, which isn't that great unless you're actually trying to get rid of the copper. There's probably better ways to get to $5 if that's what you're trying to do, and the single extra buy just means you'll just be treading water in terms of how many coppers you have. I'd think almost anything with +buy would work better with CH than something that actively trashes your copper (although sources of nonterminal +buy are limited, which is needed to double Province at the end).
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Witherweaver

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2014, 09:52:19 am »
0

I'd reiterate what Qvist said that it seems like it goes very well with Quarry.  Quarry wants Actions and Counterfeit, in a way, converts Coppers to Actions (and possibly Silvers that you had to pick up as well).  If you have a lot of virtual money, then it still gives +$1 and +1 Buy when you're out of Copper (or other treasures).  It seems like good engine building, though I guess you don't get as much bang with it as you do in money decks.

I don't know if I've ever actually used Counterfeit+Quarry to build an engine, though, so I'm thinking of this synergy theoretically. 

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c4master

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 03:19:44 am »
0

Quote
I haven't won 2er with it yet, but I think Cntrft might be the rare card that can combo with Countinghouse. Yeah you need time to bulk up your deck and Cntrft doesn't help you gain coppers (until you use Cntrft on itself) ... but in 4er with other people playing attacks I think you might be able start hitting double province turns quick enough to win out. I'd be interested to see if it can work in 2er with players more skilled than I, but I doubt it.

I don't understand this at all. How does Counterfeit help Counting House, exactly? It gets rid of your copper for an extra $1, which isn't that great unless you're actually trying to get rid of the copper. There's probably better ways to get to $5 if that's what you're trying to do, and the single extra buy just means you'll just be treading water in terms of how many coppers you have. I'd think almost anything with +buy would work better with CH than something that actively trashes your copper (although sources of nonterminal +buy are limited, which is needed to double Province at the end).

You may trash treausres with Counterfeit. You get the extra buy even if you don't and it doesn't take an action, so you do not need a village with your CH. I don't know if that's good enough to be anything close to a combo because you still need CH and Counterfeit in the same hand. Of course, you can buy more Coppers with the +buy.

btw: Is Counting House/Sage anything close to a combo? The Sage digs for your CH and by the way discards some Coppers. You do not need as many CHs. Pawns or Squires might also help.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 03:24:13 am by c4master »
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jomini

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2014, 11:56:23 pm »
+1

Quote
I haven't won 2er with it yet, but I think Cntrft might be the rare card that can combo with Countinghouse. Yeah you need time to bulk up your deck and Cntrft doesn't help you gain coppers (until you use Cntrft on itself) ... but in 4er with other people playing attacks I think you might be able start hitting double province turns quick enough to win out. I'd be interested to see if it can work in 2er with players more skilled than I, but I doubt it.

I don't understand this at all. How does Counterfeit help Counting House, exactly? It gets rid of your copper for an extra $1, which isn't that great unless you're actually trying to get rid of the copper. There's probably better ways to get to $5 if that's what you're trying to do, and the single extra buy just means you'll just be treading water in terms of how many coppers you have. I'd think almost anything with +buy would work better with CH than something that actively trashes your copper (although sources of nonterminal +buy are limited, which is needed to double Province at the end).

two things:
1. It is a "may" so you can play it like a non-terminal +buy. Are there better things for this? Yes. Candelstick maker is massively better, it is cheap, the coins help you smooth out your purchases (7 coppers in hand - use a coin for the province), and it stacks well with itself. But what about the others? Hamlet - leaves you effectively down a card (when you use the +buy) and requires you draw a card (which can be murder on your most profitable - last turn in the shuffle). Pawn doesn't draw (when used for +buy/+a), but leaves you down a card (and you can't just discard something green). Squire needs double collisions with the Chouse, and that can be slow (though on the upshot +2 buys is great for loading down on copper). Counterfeit is expensive, but ignoring price point it is better than pretty everything else.
2. It does something useful on hands without a Chouse. Say I draw 3 coppers and my +buy alone. Well that sucks for most non-terminal +buys. But if I double play a copper and get +1 coin - I can get a $5 and replace the copper. That's pretty good. Festival is better here (can get a $5 and buy a copper), but most everything else doesn't give you anything or risks upsetting end of shuffle dynamics (which are really, really important with Chouse).

Having played around a good bit since I originally commented, I have not been impressed with counterfeit/counting house. Yes it works well in long games with crappy hands, but in 2er that just doesn't happen too often. 3er can be strong - if your opponents are both doing mass Militia or something, you can just destroy them with 3 cards hands of non-terminal +Buy, Chouse, copper. The big problem is that lining up Chouse and Counterfeit often means that you need a reasonable number of each. Say you need minimum 15 copper, that means that you have 18 cards that are neither your Counterfeit or Chouse. You want 4 each to have good odds of pairing things up, and of course thanks to shuffle dynamics you'd need more coppers (so stuff other than the last hand in the shuffle can double province) and that means even more combo components for reliability. You end actually being faster if you just gun down single provinces.

Quote
Is Counting House/Sage anything close to a combo? The Sage digs for your CH and by the way discards some Coppers. You do not need as many CHs. Pawns or Squires might also help.
Chouse/Sage runs into a lot of problems. Sure it digs and may flip a few coppers, but it also can trigger poorly timed reshuffles. For example, I have 8 coppers in the discard and 6 cards in deck. No problem you say, play Sage, get Chouse -> Province. Except that Sage digs up Provinces too. Thus if it digs say 2 cards into the deck for a Province - you just burnt a Chouse play. Another problem is that if you need to use the sage to power up Chouses (say discard a few coppers) you run the risk of doing something like turning a +$2 Chouse into a +$5 (say with 2 coppers in hand) ... and colliding two Chouses. Getting +buys just isn't going to be timely. Buying enough Sages to make a dent means you can buy that many fewer +buy cards and it is ever slower off the ground.

The best combo is Candlestick maker. Scheme is pretty nice as well - just pile up a huge stack of Schemes (say 4 deep) and then run 4 turns in a row with max Chouse yield - bonus by top decking 4, 3, 2, and then 1 cards you can delay the shuffle by a couple of turns.

Quote
Counterfeit comboes with Market Square. Trash Coppers to trigger Market Square to get a Gold and later trash some Golds while getting them beck.
It synergizes well in a Minion stack similar to Upgrade.

I'm still not entirely convinced about the Minion thing. They are the same price, so if you need to use it three times before you really have that much higher effective action density (as you can almost always play the Minion as +4 cards if needed), and if you draw it early in the chain. Upgrade, in contrast not only draws you a card, but allows you to keep drawing for +4 cards after you play it.


« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 12:03:16 am by jomini »
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terminalCopper

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2014, 06:55:14 am »
0

I haven't seen Counterfeit & Counting_House working yet. Even if there are some edge-casy synergies, I definitely wouldn't mention Counting House in an article about Counterfeit, as an article should focus on the most important things, not all possible synergies/antisynergies with 204 other cards.
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ipofanes

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2014, 03:11:04 am »
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Conflicts with:
Junking attacks

Would Counterfeit + Ill-Gotten Gains be a thing, or is there too much opportunity cost involved? (I am by and large talking out of my ass here as I don't play on Goko.)
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theblankman

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Re: Counterfeit
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2014, 07:34:03 am »
+1

Would Counterfeit + Ill-Gotten Gains be a thing, or is there too much opportunity cost involved? (I am by and large talking out of my ass here as I don't play on Goko.)
You mean gaining copper to double-play?  Or double-playing the IGG itself and gaining multiple copper?  Maybe some edge cases involving Coppersmith?  In general I think IGG is enough of a thing by itself.  Typically on a board where you want IGG for the on-gain attack, you're looking to three-pile IGG, Curse and probably Duchy, so your $5 buys are kind of spoken for. 
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it's a shame that full-random is the de facto standard
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