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Author Topic: Preview #5: Herald  (Read 85749 times)

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brokoli

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2013, 10:58:30 am »
0

I hope it doesn't combo so well with Wandering minstrel, because it would be annoyingly slow : Play WM, reveal 3 cards, discard, reorder, play herald, reveal, play the action revealed, count the actions left (IRL), play WM, reveal 3 cards, discard, reorder, play herald and repeat...

Probably even worse with Scrying pool, Hunting party or alchemist chain.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2013, 10:59:23 am »
0

Remeber what was said about Menagerie way back in the day....

I think card will be applicable more often than not.

menagerie was cheaper and you had larger control over whether the effect triggered or not. it has some value obviously, it just seems like an easy candidate to be overrated because of engine love.
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rbruba

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2013, 11:04:08 am »
0

How will the Qvist rankings work for these 'overpay bonus' cards.... you can rank this as a $4, but that would imply no overpay bonus, a big reason for buying this card. At $5, you can grab one card from your discard and put on top of your deck... and at $6, you can grab two cards and so forth. So I think there are meaningful comparisons to be made at each price point. How does paying 6 for this compare to gold, when you factor in the overpay bonus? Yes, I realize that the price is technically 4, but if you are paying 6 for it to get a specific bonus, then the price is essentially 6, same as gold, adventurer, etc.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2013, 11:07:31 am »
+3

How will the Qvist rankings work for these 'overpay bonus' cards.... you can rank this as a $4, but that would imply no overpay bonus, a big reason for buying this card. At $5, you can grab one card from your discard and put on top of your deck... and at $6, you can grab two cards and so forth. So I think there are meaningful comparisons to be made at each price point. How does paying 6 for this compare to gold, when you factor in the overpay bonus? Yes, I realize that the price is technically 4, but if you are paying 6 for it to get a specific bonus, then the price is essentially 6, same as gold, adventurer, etc.

Nah, I'd say it's a $4 card.
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Qvist

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2013, 11:08:02 am »
0

How will the Qvist rankings work for these 'overpay bonus' cards.... you can rank this as a $4, but that would imply no overpay bonus, a big reason for buying this card. At $5, you can grab one card from your discard and put on top of your deck... and at $6, you can grab two cards and so forth. So I think there are meaningful comparisons to be made at each price point. How does paying 6 for this compare to gold, when you factor in the overpay bonus? Yes, I realize that the price is technically 4, but if you are paying 6 for it to get a specific bonus, then the price is essentially 6, same as gold, adventurer, etc.

We'll see. First I have to finally finish the old list.
Then after some playtesting we'll find out. But I guess it will be ranked as a $4 cost card because that's what it is. Other cards from Hinterlands also have on-buy or on-gain bonuses and they are ranked how important they are (see IGG). So if a card has an overpaying bonus that will be used very often, that makes it stronger, but it's still a $4 card that you can buy for its on-play effect.

bedlam

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2013, 11:11:55 am »
0

So Donald said you can overpay to put Heralds on top of your deck but we've determined that the on-buy effects (results of overpaying) happen before the card is gained. Was he just refering to other Heralds that you have played or bought on previos turns?
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Watno

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2013, 11:12:57 am »
0

After thinking about it a bit more, wandering minstrel/herald probably isn't that great. It's a bit VillageIdiot-like.

I think Herald will be awesome in engines with trashing as your village.

@bedlam: I think since he said heralds in plural, he probably means ones you already had.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:14:12 am by Watno »
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DStu

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2013, 11:14:19 am »
+3

So Donald said you can overpay to put Heralds on top of your deck but we've determined that the on-buy effects (results of overpaying) happen before the card is gained. Was he just refering to other Heralds that you have played or bought on previos turns?
I guess so.

I also agree it's overrated, because at the moment I rate it as OMG THIS IS BY FAR THE BEST $4 CARD EVER, and historical data indicated that this rating tends to normalize...
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2013, 11:16:14 am »
0

So Donald said you can overpay to put Heralds on top of your deck but we've determined that the on-buy effects (results of overpaying) happen before the card is gained. Was he just refering to other Heralds that you have played or bought on previos turns?

Previously gained.  He's talking about topdecking a big stack of all your Heralds.
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Slyfox

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2013, 11:19:37 am »
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How many other cards can provide a net gain in both actions and cards in the same play?  Trusty Steed does, of course.  Throne Room, Procession & King's Court certainly can when paired with a cantrip or better.  Crossroads, but only the first play per turn.  Nobles and Ironmonger generally provide either cards or actions, but not both (edge case: revealing a action/victory card like Great Hall with Ironmonger). 

I'm sure I've forgotten some card, but since Herald can provide both +cards and +actions, it already provides two of the components needed to build a strong engine.

And, since it is a cantrip, when it does miss it doesn't hurt nearly as much as, say, drawing a dead Throne Room.  Deciding when to purchase a Throne Room is tricky: if you pick it up early, it is too likely to be dead in your hand.  You still probably don't want to purchase Herald on the first two turns (depending on the board), but its cantrip natures makes it easier to pick up with a stray $4 with less risk.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:21:24 am by Slyfox »
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liopoil

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2013, 11:21:29 am »
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an activated city can too.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2013, 11:21:38 am »
0

How will the Qvist rankings work for these 'overpay bonus' cards.... you can rank this as a $4, but that would imply no overpay bonus, a big reason for buying this card. At $5, you can grab one card from your discard and put on top of your deck... and at $6, you can grab two cards and so forth. So I think there are meaningful comparisons to be made at each price point. How does paying 6 for this compare to gold, when you factor in the overpay bonus? Yes, I realize that the price is technically 4, but if you are paying 6 for it to get a specific bonus, then the price is essentially 6, same as gold, adventurer, etc.

We'll see. First I have to finally finish the old list.
Then after some playtesting we'll find out. But I guess it will be ranked as a $4 cost card because that's what it is. Other cards from Hinterlands also have on-buy or on-gain bonuses and they are ranked how important they are (see IGG). So if a card has an overpaying bonus that will be used very often, that makes it stronger, but it's still a $4 card that you can buy for its on-play effect.
Probably the best comparison is with Peddler. Peddler is overpriced for its effect, but you can underpay by playing actions first. Like Herald et al., this underpayment is a major component of its utility. Plus, you're probably more likely to buy a doctor/herald/whatever at list cost than a Herald at $8.

Peddler is in with the 6+ card list, so Herald should be in the $4 card list.
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Qvist

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2013, 11:22:48 am »
+1

To add to the list with synergizing cards, I think Conspirator/Herald will be nuts, especially with any source of +buy. Because even if your Herald misses it can still might activate Conspirators in hand. And if they hit they already activated them.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:26:11 am by Qvist »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2013, 11:23:24 am »
+3

Late to the party, stuck in meetings. I haven't read through this thread yet, but this just sounds insanely strong to me. There's a lot of decks where this will be +2 cards +2 actions more often than not. For $4! Add in the on-buy ability... I don't see how this isn't going to be a crazy-strong $4 card.
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Slyfox

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2013, 11:25:00 am »
+2

an activated city can too.

This is an interesting point of comparison.  In an action-heavy deck, Herald will act much like an activated City, but for $4, which sounds strong to me.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:29:27 am by Slyfox »
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liopoil

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2013, 11:28:17 am »
0

yeah, I think you'll hit another action more often than there will be an empty pile. that said, when there is an empty pile, you can rely on city giving you 2 card and 2 actions, and herald can never give you a $ and buy.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2013, 11:33:47 am »
+2

Peddler is in with the 6+ card list, so Herald should be in the $4 card list.

I think vanilla Herald should be in the $4 card list, and Herald with $1 overpay should be in the $5 card list, and Herald with $2+ overpay should be in the $6+ card list.
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jomini

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2013, 11:44:38 am »
0

This is great engine bait with just about any trashing. It is a village and as noted it compares quite well with an activated City.  In addition, overpaying for one or two can really decrease the setup time for an engine.

Take Altar/Herald. Whenever your Altar is in the discard, you can spend 5 to top deck it and then use Altar to gain something other than Herald. This may well double the rate you trash your starting cards and might be a 50% increase in your component gain. That's pretty good.

Even something like Steward can be pretty good here for quicker transition to engine setups  - use a 5 hand to top deck the Steward to trash the Estates on T4.

Another card I think will work very well here is Count. Count lets you thin the deck. Count is a strong action to play as a cantrip (+3 coin) and Count is great for padding duchies late game if the engine is facing 5:3 on Provinces. Additionally, Count is one of those cards that you can use to stack two deep, yeah you need two villages (or to have Heralded a non-terminal twice), but if you are only looking at 3 big turns with your engine it can be enough to make it through the third shot.

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Tables

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2013, 11:45:50 am »
+4

This will be crazy in King's Court decks.

Not in an 'absurdly powerful' way, but in an 'I have no idea what I'm resolving and how many times I'm resolving it' way.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2013, 11:52:39 am »
0

Finally, something that ACTUALLY combos with Scout.

EDIT, well, Wandering Minstrel is probably better.  Maybe.

This + Wandering Minstrel = happy land.
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jonts26

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2013, 11:53:56 am »
+1

So Herald. This seems like a pretty interesting card to me. Like other's have said, it's an activated city (level 1 or 2? what did we decide?) if it finds an action, and a worse pearl diver if it doesn't. So it's play strength depends entirely on how action dense you can get your deck (or possibly manipulate the top of your deck). My intuition tells me this card will be a powerhouse on a small, but significant number of boards, and possibly useful on a much larger percentage. The fact that it costs only $4 is a big help since it can be gained by workshop variants and remodeled from estates, etc which should all improve action density.

The biggest problem with this card acting as your primary village though is it will be missing quite a lot in the buildup phase without really good trashing. So as far as engine building is concerned, it might be a little slow. However, the extra benefit you get once your engine is set up could possibly counteract that.

Of course the other part of the card is the overpay mechanic. I feel like this is useful in an entirely different kind of deck. It will be awesome with really high power cards in a medium action density type deck (or a mega-turn KC/Bridge type deal). However, overpaying seems to be a very situational thing considering those coins are often better spent buying other cards.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2013, 11:54:59 am »
+1

Upon further thinking, in any action heavy deck, this card is awesome. Though, in a non-action heavy deck, it is often worth skipping this card, unless you have a good reason to use its on-buy effect. Although, it is decent in games with Mountebank and maybe other cursers. You can top-deck a Mountebank and even a curse if you know your opponent will likely play Mountebank, counter their curse and then hit them. Like most other Guilds cards, this card rewards good deck-tracking. I guess Donald X.'s view on strategically complex means good deck-tracking.

With that said, someone noted earlier this expansion seemed a bit of a disappointment. I think it is really awesome and gives us some neat cards. It is super clear though that DA was meant as the last expansion. It has some of the craziest cards, is the largest set ever, and the Knights are essentially a thank you to all who helped out in the game. But, regardless, I am kind of happy we are getting Guilds now because it has helped prolonged my playing of Dominion and kept me interested in the game. I am very much looking forward to playing with these cards.
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Kirian

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2013, 11:56:10 am »
0

This will be crazy in King's Court decks.

Not in an 'absurdly powerful' way, but in an 'I have no idea what I'm resolving and how many times I'm resolving it' way.

There's a reason relatively few games of Dominion are played offline.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2013, 11:59:03 am »
0

Also you can't topdeck actions to reveal with it unless you pay at least $11.


Edge cases: You played Outpost; you have Scheme in play; you have Watchtower in hand; you have Royal Seal in play; you have Herbalist in play; you buy a Nomad Camp after buying this. Also, if you buy this from the Black Market.
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KingZog3

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2013, 12:02:40 pm »
0

This will be crazy in King's Court decks.

Not in an 'absurdly powerful' way, but in an 'I have no idea what I'm resolving and how many times I'm resolving it' way.

There's a reason relatively few games of Dominion are played offline.

It's not that hard to follow the chain of actions. Also, it's rare that there is enough time to even set up KC decks with Golems and Heralds and money to buy Provinces/Colonies unless the Kingdom is really good for it and even then it'll be a mirror match where the game will probably end fast enough that there may not even be an extremely complex turn.
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