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Author Topic: Preview #5: Herald  (Read 85743 times)

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #150 on: June 09, 2013, 11:12:48 am »
+9

I think that not making this "you may play it" is a big mistake. Sure, it removes an (extremely small) amount of "complexity", but in return you'll get a lot of resentment when people are forced to play Remake, Trading Post, Junk Dealer etc. and trash a good card from their hand. It's not as bad as the possibility of being forced to trash a good card with Lookout, but it's the kind of luck based risk that isn't fun and isn't present in many other dominion cards.

You seem to dislike random outcomes. This just in: Dominion is a game which consists almost entirely of manipulating random outcomes to be more favorable to you. The only kind of risk in Dominion is "luck based risk". People perceive trashing something good as different then drawing $7 with a Smithy, but they are the SAME THING.

Quote
Also it makes the same mistake as Wishing Well (and Ironmonger, although that card's not as annoying because it always gives you SOME benefit) by not having the ability to combo with top decking cards. It definitely comes across as more annoying than a deliberate design choice. It won't be annoying as Wishing well, where you're forced to make a random guess even though you've invested in cards that allow more predictability, but it probably would have been better served by having the effects reversed, or having a vanilla effect that doesn't have +cards (similar to how Mystic "fixed wishing well). Instead it's a spammable cantrip that is occasionally excellent, with the only strategic element being "buy it if you have a lot of actions".

In the absence of deck inspection combos, the versions of these cards where the cantrip part comes first allow you to make better guesses because you have more information (drawn one more card) whenever you make your wish. Of course, these cards absolutely do combo with other deck inspection cards (besides Spy) and counter the attacks which mess with the top of your deck, but you seem to think this isn't true.

The other issue is one of readability of the cards. Oracle is the only (I think) card where the standard vanilla effects appear after something wordy. This is a minor point of course.

Quote
This card will be good, but it reminds me of a fan-card. I wouldn't put it alongside failed cards like Thief, Scout or Counting House, but it does seem haphazardly designed.

Thief is significantly better in games with more than two players (though still not great). Scout is a card which combos with cards in its own set (Great Hall, Nobles, Harem), which meant it probably looked better in playtesting Intrigue. Of course Scout still sucks even when those cards are available. Counting House is a fantastic card in large part because it's so worthless. You play all these games and Counting House sits there neglected and unused, but that's not a big deal, 9 cards is plenty to build with. Then suddenly there's this board and the clouds part and shine a light down on Counting House and suddenly Counting House is The Star. I think that's incredibly fun and it's even more fun when your opponent doesn't see it, because of course Counting House was "haphazardly designed".
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Spiral Architect

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #151 on: June 09, 2013, 12:12:49 pm »
0

This seems fun! It can build with a lot of cards to make good engines, and that's always fun.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #152 on: June 09, 2013, 12:20:10 pm »
+1

Quote
You seem to dislike random outcomes. This just in: Dominion is a game which consists almost entirely of manipulating random outcomes to be more favorable to you. The only kind of risk in Dominion is "luck based risk". People perceive trashing something good as different then drawing $7 with a Smithy, but they are the SAME THING.

Perception's the issue; two words is a small price to pay to save the ill will that inevitably comes up when this card reveals a Junk Dealer or Trading Post late game. Being hurt and not moving ahead as quickly feel completely different.

Quote
In the absence of deck inspection combos, the versions of these cards where the cantrip part comes first allow you to make better guesses because you have more information (drawn one more card) whenever you make your wish. Of course, these cards absolutely do combo with other deck inspection cards (besides Spy) and counter the attacks which mess with the top of your deck, but you seem to think this isn't true

Mystic combos with far more cards than Wishing Well. There are many more cards that let you know what the top card of your deck is (including failed mystics/wishing wells) than cards that let you know the top 2 or more (Scout, Navigator, Apothecary, Cartographer, Doctor, being hit with a Ghost Ship or Rabble). The point about the extra card making guessing easier is mostly moot (it will still be a crapshoot in most scenarios), and is definitely moot with Herald. Drawing an action you just Scavenged or gained with Armory, then revealing a Gold and putting it back is going to be annoying as hell. The card's designed to do something more than a regular cantrip, but unfortunately that effect's left to randomness.

On the points raised on other "badly designed" cards, it's all about space. With this as the last set, every card counts, and there's good grounds for resenting the slot taken up by cards that are designed to be sort of ok in 4 player, sort of ok in their own expansion, or bad in almost every game until it shines.  Every deliberate joke and trap card is taking up a slot that an interesting, dynamic card could have. There's also the opportunity cost; there's no room for a less swingy Herald, a fixed scout etc. because those ideas have been done and new cards would be a retread, as well as the issue with costing "strictly better" cards.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #153 on: June 09, 2013, 12:27:13 pm »
+4

On the points raised on other "badly designed" cards, it's all about space. With this as the last set, every card counts, and there's good grounds for resenting the slot taken up by cards that are designed to be sort of ok in 4 player, sort of ok in their own expansion, or bad in almost every game until it shines.

This wasn't going to be the last expansion. Dark Ages was. Also, if you occasionally played games that used 2 or 3 expansions rather than playing full random all the time, you'd probably really like those sorts of cards.

Every deliberate joke and trap card is taking up a slot that an interesting, dynamic card could have. There's also the opportunity cost; there's no room for a less swingy Herald, a fixed scout etc. because those ideas have been done and new cards would be a retread, as well as the issue with costing "strictly better" cards.

I don't think there are any cards that are meant to be jokes or traps. Scout seemed fine when it was being tested with mostly Intrigue cards.

Also, I think you should play a dozen games with Herald before you get up in arms about how much better it could have been, Mr. Monday Morning Dominion Card Designer.
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popsofctown

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #154 on: June 09, 2013, 08:26:22 pm »
0

Quote from: Mic
In the absence of deck inspection combos, the versions of these cards where the cantrip part comes first allow you to make better guesses because you have more information (drawn one more card) whenever you make your wish.

Is this statement true even if you average it out with the times that the cantripping triggers a reshuffle?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #155 on: June 09, 2013, 08:57:08 pm »
0

Quote
As a 6500+ on Goko, I can say I do stupid things all the time - this does not make them un-stupid.
(-:
I think it puts a reasonable lower bound on how stupid it is, though!
I don't, really. I mean, I have made a play that forced me to lose, when I had like 3-4 that forced me to win. that's pretty close to as-stupid-as-you-can-get.

For instance, I just played a game where it got to the end, my opponent had 10 curses, 7 Silk Road, 11 estates. I had 0 curses, 0 estates, 2 duchies, 3 provinces, and $4. I thought for 30 seconds, *knew* that this is what we both had, thought that 3 provinces was worth 24 points, and so bought the last SR, to force a loss...

popsofctown

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #156 on: June 09, 2013, 09:26:31 pm »
0

3*8=24, checks out.
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jonts26

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #157 on: June 09, 2013, 09:30:35 pm »
+1

3*8=24, checks out.

3*8=18 in hexidecimal. Should have used that.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #158 on: June 10, 2013, 01:09:42 am »
+1


This wasn't going to be the last expansion. Dark Ages was. Also, if you occasionally played games that used 2 or 3 expansions rather than playing full random all the time, you'd probably really like those sorts of cards.

I don't think there are any cards that are meant to be jokes or traps.

The issue isn't that guilds is last, the issue is that there was a planned, finite number of expansions in a game that's so easily expandable (as any keen fan card designer would know), so every card counts. I do like how each expansion is themed and synergistic (if anything they aren't themed enough), but with very few special setup rules, it's so easy to bring them into the fold and leave them there, that cards like Scout begin to stick out.

Thief is the highly likely to be a deliberate trap, as a card that steals opponent coppers, which seems like something that's reasonably good to a beginner player until they know better.
From the "Dominion Time Machine" post:
Quote
It would be nice if Thief were stronger, but it already scares new players, and once everyone was new.
I'm ok with this concept, but there's ways of making cards that initially seem good, then seem bad, that still remain useful at the highest levels of play (eg Workshop). Thief could have been replaced by a hint in the rulebook, or by having a card like Beggar or Cache in the base set (which would actively make players consider the true value of copper). The fact that Noble Brigand exists as a "fixed" Thief is all the more damaging.

Rats is also an example of a deliberate joke/trap card, which is actually useless outside of its combos, but it is easy enough to understand and strong enough when it works that I'm ok with it. Cards like Counting House which don't even work properly when you identify it's niche use are worse.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 01:11:49 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #159 on: June 10, 2013, 01:22:44 am »
0

Also, I think you should play a dozen games with Herald before you get up in arms about how much better it could have been, Mr. Monday Morning Dominion Card Designer.

Some cards don't need to be "better" in terms of power or balance, but in other ways. For example, I think Fortress would have been cooler if it went to your hand when you gain it as well as trash it. It's a small impact on power, but it's a cool playing effect with some neat combos, and one that would be so easy to add. Of course thinking harder there's some rules issues (what happens when you gain fortress with Armory?), so maybe that's why it's not on any card, but that's an example of thinking how a card could possibly be better without needing to gauge it's power.

I also don't think I'd enjoy seeing, for example, Lookout and Herald on the same board, and thinking they combo (multipe cards! top deck!), then thinking harder and realising they don't when deciding on initial buys. It doesn't require any playing to be disappointed by a Nombo.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #160 on: June 10, 2013, 02:22:38 am »
0

Having an indefinite amount of expansions would be a mistake.  Donald X has posted plenty of reasoning on this topic. 

Even Thief is good in some setups.  And as Donald X always says, not every card can be the best.  It doesn't make sense to call Rats a joke or a trap -- it is very clearly a card meant for combos.  It does not pretend to be an awesome one card show, so I don't see why you call it out.  Counting House does fine in its niche.

And it is fine that there are nombos.  Not every card will work together.

It really sounds like you want more and more complexity just for complexity's sake.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #161 on: June 10, 2013, 04:04:27 am »
0

Having an indefinite amount of expansions would be a mistake.  Donald X has posted plenty of reasoning on this topic. 

Even Thief is good in some setups.  And as Donald X always says, not every card can be the best.  It doesn't make sense to call Rats a joke or a trap -- it is very clearly a card meant for combos.  It does not pretend to be an awesome one card show, so I don't see why you call it out.  Counting House does fine in its niche.

And it is fine that there are nombos.  Not every card will work together.

It really sounds like you want more and more complexity just for complexity's sake.

Not every card can be the best, but they should at least try to make every card very effective at what it's supposed to do. Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk, and it isn't outclassed entirely by Noble Brigand in games with alt treasures (none of which are in the base set), but it's woefully inept so often for reasons obvious to any player who's gotten past the basic misconceptions.

I personally enjoy Dominion the most when a batch of new cards come out and I have no idea what to do with them, or when I discover a combo or strategy for the first time. In this light, even a card like Thief has some value; the flaws start to show when things stagnate. As long as there are new, relatively simple, interesting card ideas which don't embarrass existing cards (or even if they do ie Noble Brigand) that add something new to the table, I'd like to see them all be explored. Maybe that's one more set. Maybe that's 20. It's not zero, as scrawling through the fan card forum would reveal. Magic the gathering is going strong with cards, and Dominion's easier to design for, given the inherent balance that comes from equal access. It's also a fairly sturdy base that you can build expansions with unique mechanics on top of (ie Alchemy having a different resource). Calling it a day at 200 cards seems far too soon.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #162 on: June 10, 2013, 04:13:28 am »
0

On Nombos:

It's fine that cards that obviously aren't meant to work together don't, but when it comes about because a card is missing a near trivial "you may", or some other near miss, it's a bit disappointing. Disappointing can be interesting in some ways, but it's not intrinsically interesting.

At any rate, even though I think it could be better, I'm really looking forward to using this card (for its overpay effect mainly), despite the negative feeling that the inevitable circumstances of unwanted forced trashing, having an action and treasure come up in the wrong order and other such things may create.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #163 on: June 10, 2013, 07:28:31 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
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popsofctown

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #164 on: June 10, 2013, 09:40:49 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth
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KingZog3

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #165 on: June 10, 2013, 10:52:50 am »
+2

There will always be a worst card, can it sounds like you'll always say that the worst card needs bumping up. The truth is if every card were of an equal and balanced strength, then Dominion would 100% luck. Every strategy, although different, would be of equal strength.

When Venture and Thief are on the same board, you don't play a Venture based deck. That's big enough to say Thief has a place in the game. It counters a card without either of them having been bought. It changes the set-up. Fine, Scout isn't good, but with Intrigue cards it looks fine. Draw 4 Great Halls into my hand and similar stuff is probably what made Scout a $4 card.
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Powerman

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #166 on: June 10, 2013, 11:00:07 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.
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KingZog3

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #167 on: June 10, 2013, 11:10:52 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

This also fits into "playing with only a few expansions." This would be pretty good with only a few expansions in the randomizer deck, and yes still decent in a few set-ups with all expansions.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #168 on: June 10, 2013, 11:26:02 am »
+1

On the Menagerie-Ruins engine, calling it that makes it sound like it's viable to buy Ruins for the purpose of activating Menagerie more, which I think I'd false. But Menagerie is a good defense to Ruins, and Fairgrounds is a great reason not to Loot someone at all.
If somebody really gets the idea to buy out the Ruins to activate their Menageries, I want to see the game log, that sounds good.

I did it, but it was in real life: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8051.0
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #169 on: June 10, 2013, 11:49:49 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #170 on: June 10, 2013, 11:54:54 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.

I think that's Thief's biggest downfall. If it produced even $1 it would be useful in a decent percentage of games. In fact, that's my Scout fix, too. +$1.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #171 on: June 10, 2013, 11:59:46 am »
0

There will always be a worst card, can it sounds like you'll always say that the worst card needs bumping up. The truth is if every card were of an equal and balanced strength, then Dominion would 100% luck. Every strategy, although different, would be of equal strength.

Curse is (more than likely, nitpickers) the worst card in Dominion if you want to use the "some card has to be the worst" logic. I think that every card should at least appeal to some strategy or type of player, and be "good" in a decent number of contexts. Dominion's generally pretty decent with this, but some cards don't quite make it.

There don't need to be good and bad cards for there to be variety and strategy. The idea is that some strategies counter other strategies, and there are multiple strategies on the board to choose from. The goal is to figure out your opponents strategy, and adapt a strategy that beats it. Ideally each card would have its chance to shine, but a more realistic scenario is that some cards are fairly useful as a backbone in many games, while other cards make the big plays. Dominion is sort of close to this, and then you get cards that aren't strong enough to be built around, and aren't reliable enough to build from.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #172 on: June 10, 2013, 12:10:50 pm »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.

I think that's Thief's biggest downfall. If it produced even $1 it would be useful in a decent percentage of games. In fact, that's my Scout fix, too. +$1.

How powerful would Thief be if it put one of the stolen treasures in your hand?  (Like, set each trashed treasure from each player aside, and at the end choose one to put in your hand and the others in the trash.)  Seems like it would make it extremely good in games where people trash some Copper.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #173 on: June 10, 2013, 12:16:16 pm »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.

I think that's Thief's biggest downfall. If it produced even $1 it would be useful in a decent percentage of games. In fact, that's my Scout fix, too. +$1.

How powerful would Thief be if it put one of the stolen treasures in your hand?  (Like, set each trashed treasure from each player aside, and at the end choose one to put in your hand and the others in the trash.)  Seems like it would make it extremely good in games where people trash some Copper.

Almost as good as Beggar in 4 player games, for only twice the price.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #174 on: June 10, 2013, 12:44:08 pm »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.

I think that's Thief's biggest downfall. If it produced even $1 it would be useful in a decent percentage of games. In fact, that's my Scout fix, too. +$1.

How powerful would Thief be if it put one of the stolen treasures in your hand?  (Like, set each trashed treasure from each player aside, and at the end choose one to put in your hand and the others in the trash.)  Seems like it would make it extremely good in games where people trash some Copper.

Almost as good as Beggar in 4 player games, for only twice the price.

I dunno.  That's for stealing copper at the beginning of the game.  What if opponents are getting a higher density of more valuable coins in the mid game?  Stealing a gold for a 6 coin swing immediately seems pretty big, and may not be that unlikely in many cases. 
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