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Author Topic: Preview #5: Herald  (Read 85738 times)

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theory

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Preview #5: Herald
« on: June 07, 2013, 10:21:08 am »
+9




How about that medieval Poland? At last we come to the final day of previews. Herald is another overpay card. I could only fit so many themes into 13 cards.

Herald varies from "+1 card +1 action" to essentially "+2 cards +2 actions," depending on your action density. Aim high, that's my advice. When you buy Herald, you get to stack the deck for your next hand. No peeking into your discard pile first to see if you want to buy Herald or not; sorry, them's the rules. But if you overpay by $3, you'll get to look through your discard pile three times; that's value for money. And you can use the overpay to put Heralds on top of your deck, and then when you play those Heralds sometimes they will announce more Heralds. It's Heralds all the way down.

Guilds has 8 more cards, and before long you will have seen them all. It will probably be available at Origins and will come out later this month in any case. It will probably show up on Goko about when it shows up in stores; I have been playtesting it. And then once people can buy it I will post a Secret History.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2013, 10:22:23 am »
+7


IFguild ($4) --> HE = Herald


Thanar nailed it, and LastFootnote seems to have been on the right track.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2013, 10:24:51 am »
+13

I think the real theme of subsequent expansions has been: "let's buff Watchtower".
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2013, 10:25:01 am »
+1

Wow, that's a crazy engine card i think.
Also nice to set up megaturns.
And it combos with scout.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2013, 10:25:17 am »
+1

I love it like I love Menagerie.

It just always feels good to have these cards activate.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2013, 10:25:57 am »
+2

Finally, something that ACTUALLY combos with Scout.

EDIT, well, Wandering Minstrel is probably better.  Maybe.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2013, 10:26:05 am »
+2

first thought is that overpaying for it on a KC board can be really crazy good.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2013, 10:26:38 am »
0

This seems to really want to combo with itself, but it doesn't. Unless you pay at least $10 for it I guess. Still, gotta love engine cards.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2013, 10:26:54 am »
+3

So since overpay happens on buy, not on gain, you can't overpay to topdeck itself.  On the other hand, you could overpay to topdeck a Talisman'd copy, or to topdeck anything gained off of Haggler.

Also, Throne Room and Golem just gained some company in forcing us to play Actions.  This time with less choice than ever.  Herald could be a dangerous card in some decks.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2013, 10:27:28 am »
0

It seems amazingly good. Maybe in the facts it's a trap but on paper...  :o
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2013, 10:28:04 am »
+1

it lets you pay terminals as cantrips.  holy cow.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2013, 10:28:14 am »
+5

You know, I love these previews. But it would have been nice to see an Attack card OR a Reaction card OR a Treasure card OR a Victory card. Anything but straight Actions, really.

So since overpay happens on buy, not on gain, you can't overpay to topdeck itself.  On the other hand, you could overpay to topdeck a Talisman'd copy, or to topdeck anything gained off of Haggler.

Also, Throne Room and Golem just gained some company in forcing us to play Actions.  This time with less choice than ever.  Herald could be a dangerous card in some decks.

Good insights! The Golem angle is especially important.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 10:30:19 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2013, 10:30:00 am »
+1

Also you can't topdeck actions to reveal with it unless you pay at least $11.

This expansion seems to have a lot of Ghost ship counters.

If this hits, it is a Lab and a village at the same time.

@Slyfox: No, you can't.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2013, 10:30:29 am »
+1

You know, I love these previews. But it would have been nice to see an Attack card OR a Reaction card OR a Treasure card OR a Victory card. Anything but straight Actions, really.

It seems that Donald X. prioritized showing off the new mechanics.  But man, I would have hope that the new mechanics intermingled with types other than Action.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2013, 10:30:55 am »
0

So since overpay happens on buy, not on gain, you can't overpay to topdeck itself.  On the other hand, you could overpay to topdeck a Talisman'd copy, or to topdeck anything gained off of Haggler.

Also, Throne Room and Golem just gained some company in forcing us to play Actions.  This time with less choice than ever.  Herald could be a dangerous card in some decks.

So just to be clear, the sequence of events is:
1) buy
2) resolve all on-buy effects, including choosing how much to overpay and the overpay effect; you choose order if there are multiple events
3) resolve al would-gain effects
3) gain the card (to your discard pile unless the would-gain effect changed it).
4) resolve all on-gain effects

Correct? 
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2013, 10:31:21 am »
0

I see a combo with Cartographer (and Wandering Minstrel, but that has already been mentioned). Play Cartographer with Herald in hand (or draw a Herald). Then make sure card number 2 is an action card you want to play.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2013, 10:32:58 am »
0

combo or nombo with scrying pool?

this card is like, hardly ever a good opener I think. Maybe open chapel-herald on a 2-5, putting chapel on top of your deck?
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2013, 10:33:50 am »
0

So since overpay happens on buy, not on gain, you can't overpay to topdeck itself.  On the other hand, you could overpay to topdeck a Talisman'd copy, or to topdeck anything gained off of Haggler.

Also, Throne Room and Golem just gained some company in forcing us to play Actions.  This time with less choice than ever.  Herald could be a dangerous card in some decks.

So just to be clear, the sequence of events is:
1) buy
2) resolve all on-buy effects, including choosing how much to overpay and the overpay effect; you choose order if there are multiple events
3) resolve al would-gain effects
3) gain the card (to your discard pile unless the would-gain effect changed it).
4) resolve all on-gain effects

Correct?

You are correct, sir!
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2013, 10:35:13 am »
+1

That's a real sweet counter to ghost ship.

other than that it seems like a better version of wishing well with an added inn on buy effect.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2013, 10:35:56 am »
0

I won't complain about art this time. It's not bad.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2013, 10:36:17 am »
0

That's a real sweet counter to ghost ship.

other than that it seems like a better version of wishing well with an added inn on buy effect.

Well, it's not really that similar. You don't have to correctly name the Action in order to play it; it just has to be an Action card.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2013, 10:36:32 am »
+2

This let's you play Scout as a Village, so that you can use that fistful of Nobles he draws to draw ever more Scouts with the actions to play them!  Not to mention Islands to get those worthless non-Scout cards out of your deck.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2013, 10:37:16 am »
0

Wow, that Wandering Minstrel Combo is awesome. Or maybe not, since they're both villages.

It suffers a bit from the Wishing Well problem: You have to manipulate the second-to-top card in your deck.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2013, 10:38:37 am »
+1

wow this is a top tier 4$ in my opinion. not on BM boards but in engines.

it reminds me of the draw+meld+execute cards in innovation.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2013, 10:39:01 am »
+1

Seems like a really powerful card.  Of course, in an tight engine, the on-play benefit of this card will be amazing. At $4, they can be fairly easy to gain lots of them.  And they chain in a pretty amazing way, too.

The on-buy effect is also pretty powerful.  Play a Chancellor and then use the on-buy effect to put KC-KC-BR-BR-BR (or whatever dominant combo is in the board) on the top of your deck.  Now, you might have have $9 to spend that often (to put 5 cards back), but there are lots of two card combos or self-combos (Treasure Map, for example).
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2013, 10:39:18 am »
+2

Also, Where is Casimir III ?
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2013, 10:39:38 am »
0

So since overpay happens on buy, not on gain, you can't overpay to topdeck itself.  On the other hand, you could overpay to topdeck a Talisman'd copy, or to topdeck anything gained off of Haggler.

Also, Throne Room and Golem just gained some company in forcing us to play Actions.  This time with less choice than ever.  Herald could be a dangerous card in some decks.

So, re: talisman: overpay and talisman's effect both occur at "when you buy", so you choose which to do first.  If you choose overpay first, you are now not buying a card costing $4 or less, so talisman's effect does not come into play.  So make sure you choose to talisman first.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2013, 10:39:54 am »
0

I thought the first couple of preview cards were good. Restrained but interesting.

But now having seen all five of the preview cards I find it hard not to be disappointed. Not sure if anyone else is feeling this way (?) but based on what I've seen in the previews Guilds seems to be variations on themes that have already been well explored.

Previously when DXV was talking about not doing any more expansions he seemed to imply there wasn't much left that could be added.... and I have to admit I found it hard to accept that, especially in the context of the amazing complexity and variety of Dark Ages.... but looking at these previews it does feel like the well may have been tapped out....

Also what is going on with the art in this set? Feels like Guilds may be a low water mark both in terms of card interest and in terms of visual appeal.

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2013, 10:40:34 am »
0

Finally, something that ACTUALLY combos with Scout.

EDIT, well, Wandering Minstrel is probably better.  Maybe.

Wandering Minstrel is alright, I would much rather have Cartographer.  The WM only sees 3 cards and since Herald draws first, you want 2/3 of your deck to be action.  Cartographer only needs to find 1 action card in 5 as you can order/discard as you please.  Much more reliable and easy to set up imo.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2013, 10:41:44 am »
0

Look like it'll be good with Apothecary. Pick up junking coppers and Potion, play all the actions before you play the Apothecary.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2013, 10:42:34 am »
+5

So, re: talisman: overpay and talisman's effect both occur at "when you buy", so you choose which to do first.  If you choose overpay first, you are now not buying a card costing $4 or less, so talisman's effect does not come into play.  So make sure you choose to talisman first.

Disagree. Herald still costs $4, even if you overpay.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2013, 10:43:10 am »
0

So since overpay happens on buy, not on gain, you can't overpay to topdeck itself.  On the other hand, you could overpay to topdeck a Talisman'd copy, or to topdeck anything gained off of Haggler.

Also, Throne Room and Golem just gained some company in forcing us to play Actions.  This time with less choice than ever.  Herald could be a dangerous card in some decks.

So, re: talisman: overpay and talisman's effect both occur at "when you buy", so you choose which to do first.  If you choose overpay first, you are now not buying a card costing $4 or less, so talisman's effect does not come into play.  So make sure you choose to talisman first.

I don't believe this is the case.  From how I believe I've heard it described, this card costs 4.  Overpaying does not change its cost.  You're just allowed to spend money for something else to happen.  I think the + is not actually changing the cost of the card, just reminding you that you can spend more money.  Unlike Peddler, which explicitly states its cost is different.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2013, 10:44:23 am »
0

It's interesting that Herald doesn't give any other on-play benefit aside from maybe playing a free action, if two cards down happens to be an action.  Even Scheme will at least topdeck itself over and over until it's finally useful.  Herald just peeks at a single card, and if it's not an action, well, see you next shuffle.  At least Throne Room has your full hand as a search space.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2013, 10:44:43 am »
0

smells like a trap/overrated card to me.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2013, 10:45:48 am »
+2

It's interesting that Herald doesn't give any other on-play benefit aside from maybe playing a free action, if two cards down happens to be an action.  Even Scheme will at least topdeck itself over and over until it's finally useful.  Herald just peeks at a single card, and if it's not an action, well, see you next shuffle.  At least Throne Room has your full hand as a search space.

Well, it's a free card and a free action. Menagerie doesn't do anything for you unless you can trigger it either.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2013, 10:46:19 am »
0

This is to Golem as Wishing Well is to Journeyman... kinda.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2013, 10:46:49 am »
+1

It also lets you look at your top card.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2013, 10:47:40 am »
0

At first when I read it, it sounded beyond awesome to me. But, upon analysis, I realize it is a $4 Village with an overpay effect. Well people, here's our village in a disguise to make it not look like a village. However, in engines, holy freakin cow! The overpay effect if used correctly can create some crazy interactions.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2013, 10:47:51 am »
0

smells like a trap/overrated card to me.

Quote from: theory
I don’t know how often I have duplicate cards.  Probably situational?

Remeber what was said about Menagerie way back in the day....

I think card will be applicable more often than not.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2013, 10:48:01 am »
+3

I thought the first couple of preview cards were good. Restrained but interesting.

But now having seen all five of the preview cards I find it hard not to be disappointed. Not sure if anyone else is feeling this way (?) but based on what I've seen in the previews Guilds seems to be variations on themes that have already been well explored.

Previously when DXV was talking about not doing any more expansions he seemed to imply there wasn't much left that could be added.... and I have to admit I found it hard to accept that, especially in the context of the amazing complexity and variety of Dark Ages.... but looking at these previews it does feel like the well may have been tapped out....

Also what is going on with the art in this set? Feels like Guilds may be a low water mark both in terms of card interest and in terms of visual appeal.

So, a couple of things here. First, I know exactly what you mean. However, there are quite a few reasons I'm still looking forward to playing Guilds.

1. I expect a lot of these cards to play in a very unique way, even if they don't seem that unique when you first look at them. Butcher especially. It's a set with a lot of subtle interactions and strategy, I believe.
2. I expect the set to have a Victory card and at least one Attack card, which will help jazz it up. If we're lucky, we'll get a Treasure or a Reaction as well.
3. Dark Ages really raised the bar for what is considered an interesting Dominion card. If we'd seen these before Dark Ages, they might look more exciting.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2013, 10:48:42 am »
0

I thought the first couple of preview cards were good. Restrained but interesting.

But now having seen all five of the preview cards I find it hard not to be disappointed. Not sure if anyone else is feeling this way (?) but based on what I've seen in the previews Guilds seems to be variations on themes that have already been well explored.

Previously when DXV was talking about not doing any more expansions he seemed to imply there wasn't much left that could be added.... and I have to admit I found it hard to accept that, especially in the context of the amazing complexity and variety of Dark Ages.... but looking at these previews it does feel like the well may have been tapped out....

Also what is going on with the art in this set? Feels like Guilds may be a low water mark both in terms of card interest and in terms of visual appeal.

Guilds is fine. Not every expansion can be the best  :)

Seriously, I can understand your opinion. Most cards are just variations (but crazy and funny variations) of other cards, but at some point, you can't always create more exotic cards.

To the card: Yes, it might be a trap, but it's great in an action deck without much card draw (and actions, too)
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2013, 10:49:52 am »
+1

Wow, I love this card and this time I approve the art and the name. So, this might be my favourite card from the set so far.

The main effect is sort of a Throne Room, but without playing the Action twice, it adds a cantrip effect to it. So, it's effect is probably not so strong, but at least it's never a dead card (unless you draw it dead of course). So, the power level might be similar. It combos nice with Apothecary, Cartographer and yeah even Scout. Chaining Heralds will be pretty crazy and King's Court + Herald even more because the order in resolving could get really confusing like kinging a Herald to reveal a Golem ... !?  :o  So what are action cards that really want to be played as Cantrips. I guess most attacks, probably not cursers as the games are rarely engine boards, but playing trashing attacks like Knights as cantrips could be devastating. Other than that, Bridge comes to my mind. I wonder how good a Herald+Bridge game with trashing would be. Seems really strong. Also trashers are nice as most of them are terminal, although this gets probably dangerous with mandatory trashing. It has the same problem as Golem has, you really have to be careful with a Trading Post in your deck, for example.

The overpaying is basically on-buy Scavenger and seems also very strong. With top-decking like Royal Seal you could pair cards that you buy and from your discard. In every end game (especially Colony games) it might be really good to pay $5 or more to prepare your next turn just like Inn or Mandarin can do it.

Edit: Oh yeah, Wandering Minstrel comboes probably even better with it, but you draw first and then the next card has to be an Action card, that's a bummer.

Edit: 17 new replies have been posted. Sigh.

Slyfox

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2013, 10:50:31 am »
0

I like how this stacks.  Consider a Herald in hand and four more on the top of your deck (maybe not realistic, but just for analysis).

Play Herald for +1 action, +1 card (draw Herald), reveal Herald, play it for +1 action, +1 card (draw Herald), reveal Herald, play if for +1 action, +1 card, reveal non-action.  The end result is, what, +3 cards, +3 actions? 

Ironmonger is a pretty good card (ranked #13 of $4 cards in the most recent rankings), but doesn't really stack in the same way.  Ironmonger is more like a village in an action-heavy deck, this becomes more like a Lab plus Village. 
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2013, 10:51:59 am »
0

Well, it's a free card and a free action. Menagerie doesn't do anything for you unless you can trigger it either.

Menagerie is a fair comparison in this regard.  Maybe I'm just more used to Menagerie, so I can easily judge whether or not Menagerie will work well (e.g. defense versus discard attacks, or in conjunction with sifting and discard for benefit)

Herald will certainly have a place in dense action decks.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2013, 10:52:19 am »
+11

What is also cool about this is that you can fill your deck with Heralds and Villages and now your Village Idiot has his own Herald to let everyone know he's coming.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2013, 10:52:32 am »
0

combo or nombo with scrying pool?
Seems really hard to make a cantrip that wouldn't combo with SP, especially one cheaper than $5. A classic SP deck would almost certainly benefit from the speed boost of being able to buy some Heralds on early non-Potion turns. In multiplayer it can happen that you run out of SPs before anyone has enough to get their engine functioning properly, and then it will be nice to have Heralds too.

I think the only question is, rather, if SP combos with Herald! Which is to say that maybe Herald alone turns out to be so strong that SP is an unnecessary diversion.

I'm curious how these overpay cards will play with Workshop-types. Is it fantastic to gain tons of Heralds with Workshop, or does your opponent beat you with the overpay bonus despite losing the Herald split? I guess this is just another way of formulating our constant question of "Which is more 'important,' the overpay power or the Action ability?" But it's a good way, at least, I think.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 10:56:39 am by RD »
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2013, 10:52:44 am »
0

Without a little bit of deck thinning, though, Herald would be one of those cards that you have to gain a lot of with little opportunity cost, because in that case, you're just fishing for Actions to play.

An interesting Village variant. It's also like a better Wishing Well in many cases.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2013, 10:54:20 am »
0

I don't see the problems with cards being variations on other cards. It's a huge difference wether the card in the kingdom is Throne Room or King's Court, and probably will make a huge difference wether it's Butcher or Remodel. I think all the new cards (except maybe Journeyman) allow you to do things you aren't able to do now.


This might also be worth getting just for the overpay effect. Got $7 in the lategame. Buy this and topdeck money for a province.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2013, 10:55:08 am »
0

In a few kingdoms, this card will really shine.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2013, 10:56:33 am »
+2

So if Herald plays a Duration card, will it stay out?  I'm thinking that there answer is no, just like Golem doesn't stay out.  Throne Room is there as a reminder that the Duration was played twice.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2013, 10:58:30 am »
0

I hope it doesn't combo so well with Wandering minstrel, because it would be annoyingly slow : Play WM, reveal 3 cards, discard, reorder, play herald, reveal, play the action revealed, count the actions left (IRL), play WM, reveal 3 cards, discard, reorder, play herald and repeat...

Probably even worse with Scrying pool, Hunting party or alchemist chain.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2013, 10:59:23 am »
0

Remeber what was said about Menagerie way back in the day....

I think card will be applicable more often than not.

menagerie was cheaper and you had larger control over whether the effect triggered or not. it has some value obviously, it just seems like an easy candidate to be overrated because of engine love.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2013, 11:04:08 am »
0

How will the Qvist rankings work for these 'overpay bonus' cards.... you can rank this as a $4, but that would imply no overpay bonus, a big reason for buying this card. At $5, you can grab one card from your discard and put on top of your deck... and at $6, you can grab two cards and so forth. So I think there are meaningful comparisons to be made at each price point. How does paying 6 for this compare to gold, when you factor in the overpay bonus? Yes, I realize that the price is technically 4, but if you are paying 6 for it to get a specific bonus, then the price is essentially 6, same as gold, adventurer, etc.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2013, 11:07:31 am »
+3

How will the Qvist rankings work for these 'overpay bonus' cards.... you can rank this as a $4, but that would imply no overpay bonus, a big reason for buying this card. At $5, you can grab one card from your discard and put on top of your deck... and at $6, you can grab two cards and so forth. So I think there are meaningful comparisons to be made at each price point. How does paying 6 for this compare to gold, when you factor in the overpay bonus? Yes, I realize that the price is technically 4, but if you are paying 6 for it to get a specific bonus, then the price is essentially 6, same as gold, adventurer, etc.

Nah, I'd say it's a $4 card.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2013, 11:08:02 am »
0

How will the Qvist rankings work for these 'overpay bonus' cards.... you can rank this as a $4, but that would imply no overpay bonus, a big reason for buying this card. At $5, you can grab one card from your discard and put on top of your deck... and at $6, you can grab two cards and so forth. So I think there are meaningful comparisons to be made at each price point. How does paying 6 for this compare to gold, when you factor in the overpay bonus? Yes, I realize that the price is technically 4, but if you are paying 6 for it to get a specific bonus, then the price is essentially 6, same as gold, adventurer, etc.

We'll see. First I have to finally finish the old list.
Then after some playtesting we'll find out. But I guess it will be ranked as a $4 cost card because that's what it is. Other cards from Hinterlands also have on-buy or on-gain bonuses and they are ranked how important they are (see IGG). So if a card has an overpaying bonus that will be used very often, that makes it stronger, but it's still a $4 card that you can buy for its on-play effect.

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2013, 11:11:55 am »
0

So Donald said you can overpay to put Heralds on top of your deck but we've determined that the on-buy effects (results of overpaying) happen before the card is gained. Was he just refering to other Heralds that you have played or bought on previos turns?
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2013, 11:12:57 am »
0

After thinking about it a bit more, wandering minstrel/herald probably isn't that great. It's a bit VillageIdiot-like.

I think Herald will be awesome in engines with trashing as your village.

@bedlam: I think since he said heralds in plural, he probably means ones you already had.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:14:12 am by Watno »
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2013, 11:14:19 am »
+3

So Donald said you can overpay to put Heralds on top of your deck but we've determined that the on-buy effects (results of overpaying) happen before the card is gained. Was he just refering to other Heralds that you have played or bought on previos turns?
I guess so.

I also agree it's overrated, because at the moment I rate it as OMG THIS IS BY FAR THE BEST $4 CARD EVER, and historical data indicated that this rating tends to normalize...
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2013, 11:16:14 am »
0

So Donald said you can overpay to put Heralds on top of your deck but we've determined that the on-buy effects (results of overpaying) happen before the card is gained. Was he just refering to other Heralds that you have played or bought on previos turns?

Previously gained.  He's talking about topdecking a big stack of all your Heralds.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2013, 11:19:37 am »
0

How many other cards can provide a net gain in both actions and cards in the same play?  Trusty Steed does, of course.  Throne Room, Procession & King's Court certainly can when paired with a cantrip or better.  Crossroads, but only the first play per turn.  Nobles and Ironmonger generally provide either cards or actions, but not both (edge case: revealing a action/victory card like Great Hall with Ironmonger). 

I'm sure I've forgotten some card, but since Herald can provide both +cards and +actions, it already provides two of the components needed to build a strong engine.

And, since it is a cantrip, when it does miss it doesn't hurt nearly as much as, say, drawing a dead Throne Room.  Deciding when to purchase a Throne Room is tricky: if you pick it up early, it is too likely to be dead in your hand.  You still probably don't want to purchase Herald on the first two turns (depending on the board), but its cantrip natures makes it easier to pick up with a stray $4 with less risk.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:21:24 am by Slyfox »
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liopoil

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2013, 11:21:29 am »
0

an activated city can too.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2013, 11:21:38 am »
0

How will the Qvist rankings work for these 'overpay bonus' cards.... you can rank this as a $4, but that would imply no overpay bonus, a big reason for buying this card. At $5, you can grab one card from your discard and put on top of your deck... and at $6, you can grab two cards and so forth. So I think there are meaningful comparisons to be made at each price point. How does paying 6 for this compare to gold, when you factor in the overpay bonus? Yes, I realize that the price is technically 4, but if you are paying 6 for it to get a specific bonus, then the price is essentially 6, same as gold, adventurer, etc.

We'll see. First I have to finally finish the old list.
Then after some playtesting we'll find out. But I guess it will be ranked as a $4 cost card because that's what it is. Other cards from Hinterlands also have on-buy or on-gain bonuses and they are ranked how important they are (see IGG). So if a card has an overpaying bonus that will be used very often, that makes it stronger, but it's still a $4 card that you can buy for its on-play effect.
Probably the best comparison is with Peddler. Peddler is overpriced for its effect, but you can underpay by playing actions first. Like Herald et al., this underpayment is a major component of its utility. Plus, you're probably more likely to buy a doctor/herald/whatever at list cost than a Herald at $8.

Peddler is in with the 6+ card list, so Herald should be in the $4 card list.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2013, 11:22:48 am »
+1

To add to the list with synergizing cards, I think Conspirator/Herald will be nuts, especially with any source of +buy. Because even if your Herald misses it can still might activate Conspirators in hand. And if they hit they already activated them.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:26:11 am by Qvist »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2013, 11:23:24 am »
+3

Late to the party, stuck in meetings. I haven't read through this thread yet, but this just sounds insanely strong to me. There's a lot of decks where this will be +2 cards +2 actions more often than not. For $4! Add in the on-buy ability... I don't see how this isn't going to be a crazy-strong $4 card.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2013, 11:25:00 am »
+2

an activated city can too.

This is an interesting point of comparison.  In an action-heavy deck, Herald will act much like an activated City, but for $4, which sounds strong to me.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:29:27 am by Slyfox »
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2013, 11:28:17 am »
0

yeah, I think you'll hit another action more often than there will be an empty pile. that said, when there is an empty pile, you can rely on city giving you 2 card and 2 actions, and herald can never give you a $ and buy.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2013, 11:33:47 am »
+2

Peddler is in with the 6+ card list, so Herald should be in the $4 card list.

I think vanilla Herald should be in the $4 card list, and Herald with $1 overpay should be in the $5 card list, and Herald with $2+ overpay should be in the $6+ card list.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2013, 11:44:38 am »
0

This is great engine bait with just about any trashing. It is a village and as noted it compares quite well with an activated City.  In addition, overpaying for one or two can really decrease the setup time for an engine.

Take Altar/Herald. Whenever your Altar is in the discard, you can spend 5 to top deck it and then use Altar to gain something other than Herald. This may well double the rate you trash your starting cards and might be a 50% increase in your component gain. That's pretty good.

Even something like Steward can be pretty good here for quicker transition to engine setups  - use a 5 hand to top deck the Steward to trash the Estates on T4.

Another card I think will work very well here is Count. Count lets you thin the deck. Count is a strong action to play as a cantrip (+3 coin) and Count is great for padding duchies late game if the engine is facing 5:3 on Provinces. Additionally, Count is one of those cards that you can use to stack two deep, yeah you need two villages (or to have Heralded a non-terminal twice), but if you are only looking at 3 big turns with your engine it can be enough to make it through the third shot.

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2013, 11:45:50 am »
+4

This will be crazy in King's Court decks.

Not in an 'absurdly powerful' way, but in an 'I have no idea what I'm resolving and how many times I'm resolving it' way.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2013, 11:52:39 am »
0

Finally, something that ACTUALLY combos with Scout.

EDIT, well, Wandering Minstrel is probably better.  Maybe.

This + Wandering Minstrel = happy land.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2013, 11:53:56 am »
+1

So Herald. This seems like a pretty interesting card to me. Like other's have said, it's an activated city (level 1 or 2? what did we decide?) if it finds an action, and a worse pearl diver if it doesn't. So it's play strength depends entirely on how action dense you can get your deck (or possibly manipulate the top of your deck). My intuition tells me this card will be a powerhouse on a small, but significant number of boards, and possibly useful on a much larger percentage. The fact that it costs only $4 is a big help since it can be gained by workshop variants and remodeled from estates, etc which should all improve action density.

The biggest problem with this card acting as your primary village though is it will be missing quite a lot in the buildup phase without really good trashing. So as far as engine building is concerned, it might be a little slow. However, the extra benefit you get once your engine is set up could possibly counteract that.

Of course the other part of the card is the overpay mechanic. I feel like this is useful in an entirely different kind of deck. It will be awesome with really high power cards in a medium action density type deck (or a mega-turn KC/Bridge type deal). However, overpaying seems to be a very situational thing considering those coins are often better spent buying other cards.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2013, 11:54:59 am »
+1

Upon further thinking, in any action heavy deck, this card is awesome. Though, in a non-action heavy deck, it is often worth skipping this card, unless you have a good reason to use its on-buy effect. Although, it is decent in games with Mountebank and maybe other cursers. You can top-deck a Mountebank and even a curse if you know your opponent will likely play Mountebank, counter their curse and then hit them. Like most other Guilds cards, this card rewards good deck-tracking. I guess Donald X.'s view on strategically complex means good deck-tracking.

With that said, someone noted earlier this expansion seemed a bit of a disappointment. I think it is really awesome and gives us some neat cards. It is super clear though that DA was meant as the last expansion. It has some of the craziest cards, is the largest set ever, and the Knights are essentially a thank you to all who helped out in the game. But, regardless, I am kind of happy we are getting Guilds now because it has helped prolonged my playing of Dominion and kept me interested in the game. I am very much looking forward to playing with these cards.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2013, 11:56:10 am »
0

This will be crazy in King's Court decks.

Not in an 'absurdly powerful' way, but in an 'I have no idea what I'm resolving and how many times I'm resolving it' way.

There's a reason relatively few games of Dominion are played offline.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2013, 11:59:03 am »
0

Also you can't topdeck actions to reveal with it unless you pay at least $11.


Edge cases: You played Outpost; you have Scheme in play; you have Watchtower in hand; you have Royal Seal in play; you have Herbalist in play; you buy a Nomad Camp after buying this. Also, if you buy this from the Black Market.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2013, 12:02:40 pm »
0

This will be crazy in King's Court decks.

Not in an 'absurdly powerful' way, but in an 'I have no idea what I'm resolving and how many times I'm resolving it' way.

There's a reason relatively few games of Dominion are played offline.

It's not that hard to follow the chain of actions. Also, it's rare that there is enough time to even set up KC decks with Golems and Heralds and money to buy Provinces/Colonies unless the Kingdom is really good for it and even then it'll be a mirror match where the game will probably end fast enough that there may not even be an extremely complex turn.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #75 on: June 07, 2013, 12:32:24 pm »
+29

And now we are back for the possibly final installment of But How Does it Combo With Scout?

In a word: Adequately. Scout combos with Herald by drawing Victory cards into your hand, so that Herald has a greater chance of drawing Actions. The fact that Scout doesn't draw Treasure or Curses, and allows for re-ordering, isn't such a crippling defect here, because as with Wishing Well, you are going to draw the top card anyway with the +1 Card off Herald, so you actually want the Action to be the second card in your deck. It's not going to be much of a game changer, but Herald is probably going to be the best possible reason to buy a Scout....

Chumps! That's probably what you were all saying, "Oh look at this card, it has a trivial combo factor with Scout, isn't that cute, blah blah blah."

Fools, you're barely scratching the surface of Scout/Herald comboability! The true combo is in the overpaying clause. Consider this: THERE IS NO LIMIT* TO THE NUMBER OF SCOUTS YOU CAN ADD TO YOUR DRAW DECK. If you bought them, and you discarded them, and you bought Herald, and you overpaid substantially for it, you can put as many Scouts back as your heart desires.

It's a leap of faith. Herald asks, "I know you love Scouts, but how much are you willing to overpay for this privilege of getting to play them before the reshuffle? A Copper? A Gold? Two Platinum?"

Make the leap, my friends.

I hope this has been illuminating. I feel that I have only peeled back the veil that surrounds expert Scout play, adding a single piece of the Scout puzzle that is life. This card is bigger than you, or me, or a whole handful of Wharves.

Let me leave you with this. KING'S COURT. And now you are among the enlightened.

Shanti, shanti, shanti (town)

*Limit 10.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #76 on: June 07, 2013, 12:38:55 pm »
0

Herald looks like it has super high potential, but I think it will be mediocre most of the time.  The main difficulty I see is that it is unreliable as a village and, even when successful, it does not give control over what is played.  It makes it more difficult to manage the reshuffle, and it's probably a really bad idea to use it with mandatory trashers like Remake. 

I think Steward would actually be one of the better cards to go with Herald, because it can trash down to grant high action density but it can also effectively be an activated Conspirator or a super Lab (Herald finding Steward for cards ends in a 7 card hand, 1 better than Lab).

It gets better with certain setup cards like Cartographer and (hahaha) Scout.  I think it goes decently with Doctor, which is a safe trasher to thin the deck while sometimes offering an opportunity to rearrange the next 3 cards for your next Herald play.

I think the type of deck it prefers will be very similar to a Scrying Pool deck, where you want lots of cantrips and villages.  It can be nice to throw in some terminal draw as well, but you have to be careful with it.  It's great when you reveal it with Herald, but it is much less awesome if you find it in your hand.  If you can't actually get +2 actions, the terminal draw card will effectively be a dead card; since your deck should be action dense, it will just draw a lot of dead actions.  In that case, you will have to rely on Herald finding another Herald.  It's better with more cantrips that can effectively grant +actions.

The overpay also has super high potential, but it won't always be great because it would get expensive to set up more than a couple of cards.  Inn is a flat $5 but it can shuffle in every action in your discard.  Herald's strength is that you can actually topdeck, and you can do it with more than just action cards.  It will be tricky to take advantage of though, especially considering the opportunity cost. 

Overall, it looks really interesting.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #77 on: June 07, 2013, 01:01:19 pm »
0

This is a typical card where at first you think "wait, this is great" and then you start thinking about it more and you're like "hmmm, yeah it's a cantrip, but very unreliable". So it starts getting the Menagerie treatment where you think "when am I ever going to trigger this without setting it up?" Finally it lands as a decent, but not great $4 and you might hit it often enough to make it at least fun.

If you play a single Herald 4 times over the course of the game and it hits 2 times, it gave you essentially +6 cards / +6 actions which drawwise is the same as activating Menagerie once out of 4 times, but still with 2 more actions.

So yeah, it's cute but not game-warping I think. Luckily for it, $4 isn't a really competitive price point all that often so when you're tired of Silver you can grab this, but then again it doesn't really work that well in a deck flooded with Silver.
Let's say you're faced with a board that has Caravan and this, which do you prefer? It's not always going to be automatically Herald, certainly not early.

The on-buy overpay effect is cute and all, but I don't know, how often are you going to overspend on a $4 without getting a $5 you need more?
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soulnet

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2013, 01:31:22 pm »
0

I think this card is incredibly fun. Yeah, more Menagerie/Wishing Well/Conspirator kind of fun. We can keep discussing the power level, but this is the best card in the previews because activating this card is one of the most fun engines to build. And the tension it adds is even better than the "I hope the first of my three Smittys draws another FV" or "I hope the bane is not in their hand this time".
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2013, 01:55:42 pm »
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So it starts getting the Menagerie treatment where you think "when am I ever going to trigger this without setting it up?" Finally it lands as a decent, but not great $4 and you might hit it often enough to make it at least fun.

Menagerie is an interesting point of comparison.  I think the big difference if favor of Herald is that it is difficult to trigger Menagerie multiple times per turn without extremely careful deck construction (few duplicates) or some sort of discarding (such as Warehouse, Cellar).  In contrast, just spamming Heralds gives them like a reasonable chance of being a Lab+Village on any given play.  Overall, I see this as being a key card on more boards that Menagerie.

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2013, 01:59:56 pm »
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...and it's probably a really bad idea to use it with mandatory trashers like Remake. 

I think this is a really important consideration (albeit perhaps obvious in retrospect).  With a mandatory trasher, this card could easily become a trap, forcing trashing of cards you don't want to trash.   But optional trashers (Chapel, Steward, Count, Loan, etc.) will work much better with Herald.  And look at that, we've already seen Doctor and Butcher in Guilds, both of which are optional trashers.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #81 on: June 07, 2013, 02:15:20 pm »
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This card sounds like it was made for Marin.  Now he can create improbable village-less engines even without TR or KC.

Edit: or Golem.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #82 on: June 07, 2013, 02:37:44 pm »
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It's like Golem Jr.!  Watch out for Trading Post, Trade Route, et al...
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #83 on: June 07, 2013, 02:42:52 pm »
+1

*Limit 10.
19 with Band of Misfits!
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2013, 02:52:39 pm »
0

...and it's probably a really bad idea to use it with mandatory trashers like Remake. 

I think this is a really important consideration (albeit perhaps obvious in retrospect).  With a mandatory trasher, this card could easily become a trap, forcing trashing of cards you don't want to trash.   But optional trashers (Chapel, Steward, Count, Loan, etc.) will work much better with Herald.  And look at that, we've already seen Doctor and Butcher in Guilds, both of which are optional trashers.
Well, the problem here of course is: to get any sort of action density, you would like to trash.
And often there's just one trasher on the board. So if it's Remake, I might still get it and cross that bridge when I get there. More often than not, my remaining 4 cards aren't all Colonies so in that case I'll probably still be okay.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #85 on: June 07, 2013, 02:53:18 pm »
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*Limit 10.
19 with Band of Misfits!

Then your opponent buys the last Herald, and it was the only Action card costing less than $5. Nooooooooooo!!!
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2013, 02:59:13 pm »
0

*Limit 10.
19 with Band of Misfits!

Then your opponent buys the last Herald, and it was the only Action card costing less than $5. Nooooooooooo!!!

Nah, there's Beggar :)
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2013, 03:18:13 pm »
+2

It just struck me that Goko's terrible on-buy/on-gain UI is going to be trouble for these overpay cards. If you buy a Herald, it goes directly to your discard pile before on-buy effects, ready to be put on top of your deck! Likewise, if you overpay for Doctor and it causes a reshuffle, you might hit the Doctor itself.

Goddamn Goko…
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #88 on: June 07, 2013, 03:33:55 pm »
0

*Limit 10.
19 with Band of Misfits!

Then your opponent buys the last Herald, and it was the only Action card costing less than $5. Nooooooooooo!!!

I wonder how many weird edge cases there are where emptying a pile can fundamentally mess up someone's Band of Misfits strategy.  (Obviously, buying the 10th scout to reduce your opponent's effective Scouts from 19 to 9 is just rude, and they may up and quit at that point.  The smart opponent will 10x Embargo the Scout pile after he has 9.)
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #89 on: June 07, 2013, 03:38:58 pm »
0

It just struck me that Goko's terrible on-buy/on-gain UI is going to be trouble for these overpay cards. If you buy a Herald, it goes directly to your discard pile before on-buy effects, ready to be put on top of your deck! Likewise, if you overpay for Doctor and it causes a reshuffle, you might hit the Doctor itself.

Goddamn Goko…

I was thinking about this yesterday.  Onigame considered some of these cards to have variable costs, apparently, yet from a coding perspective they absolutely do not.  That worries me.
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liopoil

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #90 on: June 07, 2013, 03:39:10 pm »
0

...better make sure that the only way to get a scout is to buy it... If, say, butcher is also in the kindgom he can turn something into the last scout, ducking the embargoes
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2013, 03:58:42 pm »
+2

The gut reaction to this card is that it's super strong, like a better throne room. Well, on some consideration, I *do* think it will probably be  slightly better card than throne room in general, but not earth-shattering. Maybe something like the 10th-best 4-cost.
Alright, you clearly want lots of actions when you're playing this. But you have to look a little more at *which* ones. And I think, generally, not your typical engine. I mean, this card is worthless if you've drawn your whole deck*. And as the key village to draw your whole dick, it's probably not so hot, either. I mean, you need to use it to hit to draw the deck, fine, maybe you can do that (though it's a little tough). But then what? You have no more actions coming in, and you probably don't have tons of spare actions lying around. So you get a terminal or two off and... what? Probably it will be hard to do enough to justify the time spent getting here, because you can't play enough of those actions. Of course, it works fine with other villages in this spot, but in that case, how much do you want this over those? Probably some, but not tons. Anyway, in these kinds of decks, it's going to be worse than throne room most times. Yes, you can go ahead without needing TR-TR or a village in your initial hand, which is nice, but at the end, TR is just going to have a better pay off. Of course, mixing them wouldn't be bad at all for this kind of deck.
(*actually, this isn't necessarily true, if you have some discard-for-benefit card which lets you pitch exactly two. Or a throned mandarin or something. Secret chamber, horse traders, cellar, etc. work, and I guess warehouse-like things do too, but usually in such cases, you'll want 3 actions to discard, and having those many left after drawing your deck... I mean, it can happen, but it's not going to be a common thing).

The mandatory trash problem. This is biggest with remake. Most other mandatory trashers probably won't get your deck down to having a full hand without a card left to trash. The thin you, but not often THAT thin. Even with remake, you can probably play around it mostly. I mean, upgrading middling cards isn't usually *that* bad, even if not ideal, or sometimes you can just play them all first, or in the rare case where none of those things works, you can choose to not play this. It will take some tactical finesse, and it is a drawback, but it's a pretty small thing. And most other kinds of actions will be things you want to play (especially if you have them in your deck).

Well, anyway, I don't think that's the real strength of the card. Most of the cards this week, I've been saying I think they work well in sort of big-money strats with some actions - you know, throw decent cantrips with decent terminal non-draw, add some silver and gold, buy green when you can. This fits into something along the same spectrum, but more on the engine-ish side of things. I mean, traditionally engines want to draw lots o f stuff and play it, but that's not what I'm talking about here. Here, I mean a deck where you might play 4-5 actions a turn, but never have a hand bigger than 6-7 cards, and maybe not even that many. So I am thinking just buying only actions, or almost only actions, until you go green, with a good helping of these. So open monument/fortune teller, and then grab as many of these as you can, sprinkling more of those cards in along the way. Or something along those lines. Another cantrip or two helps a lot. But just consider, if this hits woodcutter, that is equivalent, fully equivalent, to grand market. On a woodcutter! And generally, you want to hit better things than woodcutter. I must say, ironworks/workshop/armory well help LOADS here.

While we're talking about combos, there's navigator (seriously, you can set up a chain of these, and navigator is the exact kind of card that should do well in the deck I describe above). But most of all, I want to do something really sick with develop and this. I imagine that this synergy is just very nice, as if you do it right, you always seed yourself with a useful card. Of course, you need to have a spare action, which probably means a village, or maybe just one of these hitting a non-terminal. But I would like to set something up were I just chew through like 8 cards to empty 3 piles and end the game in a single turn.

Oh yeah, there's the overspend, too. This effect is quite interesting. Maybe you can get it to combo with the card itself if you ave a zillion cash, or with another buy and grabbing a mandarin. Okay, most of the time not. Anyway, combos with counting house, that is going for it. Good deck tracking could give you barons or tournaments when you need, too. But mostly probably just lets you play a key card or two a little more often. But usually, by the time it could be in the discard, you aren't all THAT far from  reshuffle, so you have to watch out for that - pulling it back only to have the reshuffle get missed sorta defeats a lot of the point. Yeah, well anyway, BM-type decks could grab it to help the greening phase. Slogs could gain it too, but when are you ever going to do this in a slog? Eh, probably just a nice effect to spend $1-3 on,, and occasionally be a mad genius and go like 8 over with.

eHalcyon

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2013, 03:59:52 pm »
0

It just struck me that Goko's terrible on-buy/on-gain UI is going to be trouble for these overpay cards. If you buy a Herald, it goes directly to your discard pile before on-buy effects, ready to be put on top of your deck! Likewise, if you overpay for Doctor and it causes a reshuffle, you might hit the Doctor itself.

Goddamn Goko…

I was thinking about this yesterday.  Onigame considered some of these cards to have variable costs, apparently, yet from a coding perspective they absolutely do not.  That worries me.

onigame's set generator had the goal of making "balanced" kingdoms, which by his definition typically meant a decent mix of price points.  Therefore, it made sense to include overpay cards in the various cost categories, since you COULD pay a lot for one of them in order to reap extra benefits.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #93 on: June 07, 2013, 04:00:08 pm »
+1

(Obviously, buying the 10th scout to reduce your opponent's effective Scouts from 19 to 9 is just rude, and they may up and quit at that point.  The smart opponent will 10x Embargo the Scout pile after he has 9.)

This is clearly why scout can't pick up curses - otherwise, you would just buy it anyway.

GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2013, 04:43:51 pm »
0

. And as the key village to draw your whole dick, it's probably not so hot, either.

Freudian slip?
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2013, 04:53:56 pm »
0

. And as the key village to draw your whole dick, it's probably not so hot, either.

Freudian slip?
How about I just hit the wrong key? I mean, I'm on a qwerty here.

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2013, 04:57:05 pm »
+1

. And as the key village to draw your whole dick, it's probably not so hot, either.

Freudian slip?
How about I just hit the wrong key? I mean, I'm on a qwerty here.
We saw that you hit the wrong key. The question is why? ;P
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shMerker

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #97 on: June 07, 2013, 05:07:09 pm »
+2

I want to Herald a Procession of Rats. I'm not sure if that can really be part of a workable strategy, I just like the thematic ridiculousness of it. Rats would also be fun to Butcher.
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liopoil

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #98 on: June 07, 2013, 05:12:27 pm »
0

I want to Herald a Procession of Rats. I'm not sure if that can really be part of a workable strategy, I just like the thematic ridiculousness of it. Rats would also be fun to Butcher.
there's no way to trash rats there. procession does, but each time you trash a rat with procession you gain 2 more. plus herald-into rats is going to happen way too often.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #99 on: June 07, 2013, 05:12:54 pm »
0

It just struck me that Goko's terrible on-buy/on-gain UI is going to be trouble for these overpay cards. If you buy a Herald, it goes directly to your discard pile before on-buy effects, ready to be put on top of your deck! Likewise, if you overpay for Doctor and it causes a reshuffle, you might hit the Doctor itself.

Goddamn Goko…

My thought is that when you buy an overpay card, you'll be given a button to pay more (or done), before the card ever ends up in your discard pile.  That is, if you're not dragging it.  GET RID OF THE DRAGGING
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2013, 05:19:41 pm »
+1

I like that this is like Golem without the empty-deck problem or the two-terminals problem (Golem into an empty deck costs an action; a deck of all cantrips except two terminals will occasionally Golem into both terminals and stall) but with the undesirable-actions problem retained. It looks fun. It looks like a lot of fun.

The only thing disappointing is that while Heralds can chain, they can't tree. It would be a lot more fun if instead of drawing the first card, it revealed it. On a Herald, play it. On any other card, put it into hand.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2013, 05:21:07 pm »
0

I like that this is like Golem without the empty-deck problem or the two-terminals problem (Golem into an empty deck costs an action; a deck of all cantrips except two terminals will occasionally Golem into both terminals and stall) but with the undesirable-actions problem retained. It looks fun. It looks like a lot of fun.

The only thing disappointing is that while Heralds can chain, they can't tree. It would be a lot more fun if instead of drawing the first card, it revealed it. On a Herald, play it. On any other card, put it into hand.

Sure it can?  If the second card is a cantrip (such as Herald itself), you get an extra action out of it.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #102 on: June 07, 2013, 05:33:15 pm »
0

I think the point is that it can't *force* you to play more than one non-Herald action card from your deck. Think like if Golem could play Golems.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #103 on: June 07, 2013, 05:35:22 pm »
+1

Mid/late game overpay potential seems potentially ridiculous in some boards. I look forward to the secret histories to learn what early versions of this card looked like and the effects of early playtesting.

More than almost any other card I can think of, this card epitomizes the Dominion principle that "having one good turn and one bad turn is usually better than having two mediocre turns."

(Massively) Overpaying for this card -- especially right before a reshuffle -- could guarantee you the best turn you'll have all game. Overpaying for this card seems like a surefire way of guaranteeing at least every other hand is a great hand.
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shMerker

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #104 on: June 07, 2013, 05:38:27 pm »
+2

Provided that your "not great" hands give you 6-8 coins.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #105 on: June 07, 2013, 05:39:08 pm »
0

Mid/late game overpay potential seems potentially ridiculous in some boards. I look forward to the secret histories to learn what early versions of this card looked like and the effects of early playtesting.

More than almost any other card I can think of, this card epitomizes the Dominion principle that "having one good turn and one bad turn is usually better than having two mediocre turns."

(Massively) Overpaying for this card -- especially right before a reshuffle -- could guarantee you the best turn you'll have all game. Overpaying for this card seems like a surefire way of guaranteeing at least every other hand is a great hand.

Sure, although it's hard to overpay much with a lousy hand.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #106 on: June 07, 2013, 05:43:50 pm »
+6

. And as the key village to draw your whole dick, it's probably not so hot, either.

Freudian slip?
How about I just hit the wrong key? I mean, I'm on a qwerty here.
We saw that you hit the wrong key. The question is why? ;P
E kwv'y dvwo.

Titandrake

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #107 on: June 07, 2013, 05:46:14 pm »
0

Hm. It seems pretty strong at first glance. It probably plays similarly to Scrying Pool, in that you need to buy primarily Actions to make it good. However, it probably isn't as binary as Scrying Pool, and should fit into a lot of engines pretty easily. It's also somewhat like Scheme, except Scheme makes an engine more consistent, whereas Herald looks like it makes engines possible. It should trigger fairly often in the right deck, and although I'm hesitant to say that it could be used as the main +Actions in an engine, I think it's doable.

As for the on-buy effect, I think it'll actually be quite good. You're primarily going to buy Herald in an engine, and ensuring a setup for next turn is pretty strong. The issue is that topdecking even 2 cards costs $6, which is pretty expensive. It might even work best as an IGG-like play: if you have 2 Cursers in your discard, you can spend $5 each turn to topdeck one of them each turn.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #108 on: June 07, 2013, 05:47:38 pm »
0

But just consider, if this hits woodcutter, that is equivalent, fully equivalent, to grand market. On a woodcutter!

Other things are fully equivalent to Grand Market, though, and easier to line up (because they can both be in your hand, rather than one of them having to be in a specific place like the second card on your deck). Festival/Moat. Market/Peddler.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #109 on: June 07, 2013, 05:49:44 pm »
0

Market Square/Conspirator is the cheapest Grand Market.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #110 on: June 07, 2013, 06:16:33 pm »
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I think one of the most common uses for Herald will be in the mid/late game when you have 5 to 7 coins and would normally buy a Duchy.  The overbuy will allow you to set up a province turn next (similar to Mandarin) or even a province/duchy or province/province turn.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #111 on: June 07, 2013, 06:31:47 pm »
0

Weird-- I thought the overpaying part is not that different from the on-gain part of inn. Sure with Inn you cannot bring up platinum, but you cannot usually megaturn with platinum anyway...

Overall I see this expansion shaping up pretty good! I like it a lot more than dark ages. (Ok, time to sneak in my dark ages complaint...)
I had a feeling that random games becomes less fun with DA. The on-trash part may not work, and some cards are more complicated than fun. I can hardly remember what the on-trash effects are for Hunting grounds and Catacombs, and lots of times I just buy them for the draw anyway. The shelters attract your eyes so much yet two of them plays really not that much different from estate. Procession is a very interesting concept but with random it's not easy to find a good kingdom for it. Urchin and Mercenary are such complicated concept but I have yet to see a kingdom where they become key. Grave robber and rats are niche. Pillage and the whole spoils concept makes non-engine decks more swingy than ever. And they are not so hot in engines anyway. The ruins, while different, does not really create a different game from curses. This reminds me Stef's comment on how fairgrounds changes the game just as another pile of Province. Sadly another pile of curses simply does not do that much.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #112 on: June 07, 2013, 07:16:28 pm »
+1

Procession is a very interesting concept but with random it's not easy to find a good kingdom for it.
Mountebank, or any other strong attack, makes Procession very viable, even if there's no $6 Action card to upgrade it into. It's important to play Mountebank early and often, and getting it in twice in one turn is huge. OK, you trash your Mountebank, but two Mountebank plays produce $4 in virtual money, so you just buy another one.


Urchin and Mercenary are such complicated concept but I have yet to see a kingdom where they become key.
That is strange, because typically when Urchin is on the board, both me and my opponent rush to get Mercenary first. Trashing two cards is nice, +2 Cards +$2 is great, and it's a Militia too, and you didn't have to spend more than $3 for it. I'd argue that it's too overpowered, and too swingy - the trashing helps you play it more often, and the discard attack especially hurts when your opponent is trying to play their own Mercenary, as they have to keep Mercenary and either two junk cards to trash, or some cantrip/village and gamble on it drawing something they want to trash. Getting that first Mercenary can have such a big impact.


The ruins, while different, does not really create a different game from curses.
They absolutely do; the obvious differences are that Curses are worth negative VP while Ruins are easier to ignore, and if you find yourself with a spare action (especially in a Fishing Village or City deck), you can't play a Curse for some marginal benefit. There's also boards with both Ruins and Curses being given, and having 20 junk cards as ammunition does play a lot differently to having 10.

But there are so many situational differences, a large proportion of boards should see some difference. All the Cornucopia cards that care about variety get a boost, because there are five differently named Ruins. Quite a few counters to Curses - Farming Village, Wandering Minstrel, Golem, and Vagrant, for example - simply don't work at all against Ruins; but also, Curses really hurt Scrying Pool while Ruins hardly matter. If you play Ironmonger you'd rather have a Ruins, but if your opponent plays Tribute you'd rather have a Curse. Cultist vs Vineyard is a recipe for disaster, and in a Gardens slog, you might even want to buy an Abandoned Market, just to help increase your deck size with some extra Coppers.

No lie, I lost a game once against a Menagerie/Ruins engine.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 07:30:03 pm by Warfreak2 »
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #113 on: June 07, 2013, 07:25:34 pm »
0

The overpaying effect aside, I think the main point of this card is being able to play terminals like cantrips. Especially if the Attack is drawing more cards, and presumably more Heralds, into your hand. The overpaying pumps it up.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #114 on: June 07, 2013, 08:15:25 pm »
+1

Procession is a very interesting concept but with random it's not easy to find a good kingdom for it.
Mountebank, or any other strong attack, makes Procession very viable, even if there's no $6 Action card to upgrade it into. It's important to play Mountebank early and often, and getting it in twice in one turn is huge. OK, you trash your Mountebank, but two Mountebank plays produce $4 in virtual money, so you just buy another one.

...

No lie, I lost a game once against a Menagerie/Ruins engine.

I disagree.  If there isn't a good $6 (read: Border Village), or something else to hit (read: Fortress), Procession is a bad idea.  You are spending $4 on Proc when you could be buying something else.  Then you are counting on it to collide with your Mountebank, when it's a dead card otherwise... and that'll be often, since you'll be getting hit by Mountebank as well.  And then you're spending another $5 to re-buy a Mountebank?  The opportunity cost of two buys for $4 and $5 is significant, and that's in the SUCCESS scenario.  You might not get Proc with your MB at all.

In the latter game, that loss is more due to Fairgrounds, I think. :P  Buying Ruins is not generally a path to success, Menagerie or not. ;)
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KingZog3

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #115 on: June 07, 2013, 08:32:46 pm »
0

Weird-- I thought the overpaying part is not that different from the on-gain part of inn. Sure with Inn you cannot bring up platinum, but you cannot usually megaturn with platinum anyway...

Overall I see this expansion shaping up pretty good! I like it a lot more than dark ages. (Ok, time to sneak in my dark ages complaint...)
I had a feeling that random games becomes less fun with DA. The on-trash part may not work, and some cards are more complicated than fun. I can hardly remember what the on-trash effects are for Hunting grounds and Catacombs, and lots of times I just buy them for the draw anyway. The shelters attract your eyes so much yet two of them plays really not that much different from estate. Procession is a very interesting concept but with random it's not easy to find a good kingdom for it. Urchin and Mercenary are such complicated concept but I have yet to see a kingdom where they become key. Grave robber and rats are niche. Pillage and the whole spoils concept makes non-engine decks more swingy than ever. And they are not so hot in engines anyway. The ruins, while different, does not really create a different game from curses. This reminds me Stef's comment on how fairgrounds changes the game just as another pile of Province. Sadly another pile of curses simply does not do that much.

It was said just before, but Mercenary is often so good at trashing it leaves one player unable to catch up.
Madman is great for mega turns and especially since you probably don't want the
Urchin in your deck at some point anyway. The on-trash benefits activate often enough that they play an important role in many games.
Spoils have their own role in many decks and are unique. They don't make games swingy. There is nothing swingy about Bandit Camp or Marauder. Pillage a little, I will agree, but not the others.
Ruins are very different because they are Actions, and can mess with any card that refers to Actions (Which I'll mention is quite a lot of cards.)
Shelters play a HUGE part in how you open. No longer can you open Salvager, Remodel, Develop, Baron, Ambassador etc. They also make many alt VP games much easier.
Rats is useful sometimes, but it is true it does make little difference in many games. Then again, I've seen it be the star of the board. Graverobber is really good and I use it a lot for turning $5 cards into Provinces, then gaining them again to turn them into more Provinces.

Out of all those complaints, you didn't even mention Kinghts!! They are the swingiest part of Dark Ages, with a huge luck factor on who gets what Knight, or even if Sir Martin is available in the first turn for a 4/3 start.
The "trashing" theme is conveyed really well since over half the cards ether trash, have on-trash benefits, are activated by trashing or deal with the trash in some way. DA is by far one of the best expansions. Although I'll guess you think Prosperity is the best... the expansion that encourages simple strategies around simple treasure cards.
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RD

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #116 on: June 07, 2013, 09:37:47 pm »
0

Definitely the least guildy card we've seen yet. Unless the demand for heraldry is really sufficient to support a full guild of them?
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #117 on: June 07, 2013, 09:52:06 pm »
+3

Definitely the least guildy card we've seen yet. Unless the demand for heraldry is really sufficient to support a full guild of them?

I think the expansion is called Guilds because it sounds better than Dominion: Jobs.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #118 on: June 07, 2013, 11:13:48 pm »
0

I've downgraded my assessment slightly, because I realize that even if it hits every time, it's not as good as +2 cards +2 actions. With +2 cards +2 actions, you are free to spend those actions on any action cards you have in your hand. With Herald, one of your 2 actions is forced to be used on whatever action card happened to be revealed. If that card is non-terminal, then I suppose it doesn't really matter. But if it was terminal, +2 actions would let you play 2 other terminals from your hand, which perhaps you'd rather play that the one that was on top of your deck. Then again, this only matters if you have more terminals than you can play.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #119 on: June 07, 2013, 11:37:06 pm »
0

So Inn has some real competition now. On the one hand, Inn can add tons of great actions to your deck with just a 5$ purchase. On the other hand, you know exactly what you're getting next turn when you overpay for a Herald and Herald itself doesn't decrease your handsize on-play like Inn does. I predict that I'm going to try to ignore this card at first and lose a bunch of games because of it. Like Ironmonger, this card really takes a hit from junkers. I really want to try to combo it with apothecary though.

On the subject of Dark Ages, my only complaint about that expansion is that some of the cards  really depend on the presence of other cards in order to be good. Okay, maybe just Rats. Also, would anyone else have nightmares if you walked into a storeroom being raided by rats in real life? But Dark Ages is the combo expansion. Guilds is just like, the expansion where you take everything you learned about Dominion and apply it in a different context. I for one really like the coin token concept, just because I think being able to carry over coins across turns is a powerful ability, and so far Baker is my favourite of the bunch.
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timchen

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #120 on: June 08, 2013, 12:24:49 am »
0


It was said just before, but Mercenary is often so good at trashing it leaves one player unable to catch up.
Madman is great for mega turns and especially since you probably don't want the
Urchin in your deck at some point anyway. The on-trash benefits activate often enough that they play an important role in many games.
Spoils have their own role in many decks and are unique. They don't make games swingy. There is nothing swingy about Bandit Camp or Marauder. Pillage a little, I will agree, but not the others.
Ruins are very different because they are Actions, and can mess with any card that refers to Actions (Which I'll mention is quite a lot of cards.)
Shelters play a HUGE part in how you open. No longer can you open Salvager, Remodel, Develop, Baron, Ambassador etc. They also make many alt VP games much easier.
Rats is useful sometimes, but it is true it does make little difference in many games. Then again, I've seen it be the star of the board. Graverobber is really good and I use it a lot for turning $5 cards into Provinces, then gaining them again to turn them into more Provinces.

Out of all those complaints, you didn't even mention Kinghts!! They are the swingiest part of Dark Ages, with a huge luck factor on who gets what Knight, or even if Sir Martin is available in the first turn for a 4/3 start.
The "trashing" theme is conveyed really well since over half the cards ether trash, have on-trash benefits, are activated by trashing or deal with the trash in some way. DA is by far one of the best expansions. Although I'll guess you think Prosperity is the best... the expansion that encourages simple strategies around simple treasure cards.
1. No, I am not saying mercenary is weak or skippable. Why do you read that? The problem is that urchin is a cantrip so people may as well just get it. If there is interesting strategy, the question would be how many you want to get, and how early. The problem is, with just a couple of urchins, sometimes you can get mercenary very soon, sometimes you can't. When you get mercenary, sometimes you get major benefit out from the trashing immediately, sometimes you don't. In the end it's (for me) pretty hard to see what is the best strategy around these two cards since a strategy relying on getting to the mercenary ASAP is perhaps too slow in average, yet when it aligns it can just be very significant. So in the end I usually just get a few urchins and see what happens. And of course they then would never be a cornerstone of a deck.

2. Spoils are swingy because in a BM-ish deck it really depends on whether you can make to the next $ level when you draw it. Think about gold in a BM-ish game. Getting to the first gold early and then getting another gold when you draw the first gold gives the player quite some advantage. Now if you can only use that gold once the difference becomes even more significant. And Honestly if you play Marauder+BM for a few times you'll see why that card is swingy.

3. I think it is a bad thing shelters make those openings unviable. Enabling fairgrounds to the point that people would almost always go for it isn't so hot either.

4. Graverobber. Yes. But don't you see that play is very similar to the remodel family and the "gain from trash" aspect is not so important? I would say the potential of this card is that it can gain cards back immediately in a turn (say procession something then grave rob it) then maybe play it again. It's just very hard to find a random kingdom to make this work.

5. Knights. I think they are a worthy upgrade of saboteur. Yeah, I can complain how making them different card by card does not alter the strategy space all that much, but due to the nature of the card I actually think it is a good idea. Trashing one card out from the top two cards on deck is very swingy and can be very frustrating at times. (If they are not at times frustrating enough then they are too weak...) Adding some flavor to those games to increase enjoyment can be a good idea.

6. As I said, a large part of my complaint is to play DA completely random.

7. My favorite expansion is cornucopia, probably partly for its absolute power creep but also for the subtlety involved. Then it's hinterlands and seaside, for their subtlety and power respectively. What you describe as Prosperity is simply untrue. But you are right I still like prosperity more than dark ages.
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popsofctown

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #121 on: June 08, 2013, 12:41:51 am »
0

This card is really bad.  I want to like it but I think it's really bad.  4$ for a sometimes Lab.  There's no way to transition into this in a way that works because you have to get massive action density -before- you purchase these for them to be good.  So then you get massive action density, and you buy your 4$ usually-active city and it turns out it's a 4$ usually lab because you didn't purchase tons of terminal actions, you bought terminals and nonterminals in reasonable proportion.

The transition is just so awkward. 
I'm a bit surprised it's not a 3$ card so that it's easier to use +buys to transition into this and load up on them.  But I can see how that might get out of hand too.  I think it's a case of too good at 3$ not good enough at 4$.  This would have had a niche if you could use 6$ to buy two of these instead of a 5$ engine card, but buying two of these instead of a Province just isn't going to pan out, especially when they have draw-your-whole deck issues that make them compare terribly to Conspirator.
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KingZog3

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #122 on: June 08, 2013, 12:55:31 am »
0


It was said just before, but Mercenary is often so good at trashing it leaves one player unable to catch up.
Madman is great for mega turns and especially since you probably don't want the
Urchin in your deck at some point anyway. The on-trash benefits activate often enough that they play an important role in many games.
Spoils have their own role in many decks and are unique. They don't make games swingy. There is nothing swingy about Bandit Camp or Marauder. Pillage a little, I will agree, but not the others.
Ruins are very different because they are Actions, and can mess with any card that refers to Actions (Which I'll mention is quite a lot of cards.)
Shelters play a HUGE part in how you open. No longer can you open Salvager, Remodel, Develop, Baron, Ambassador etc. They also make many alt VP games much easier.
Rats is useful sometimes, but it is true it does make little difference in many games. Then again, I've seen it be the star of the board. Graverobber is really good and I use it a lot for turning $5 cards into Provinces, then gaining them again to turn them into more Provinces.

Out of all those complaints, you didn't even mention Kinghts!! They are the swingiest part of Dark Ages, with a huge luck factor on who gets what Knight, or even if Sir Martin is available in the first turn for a 4/3 start.
The "trashing" theme is conveyed really well since over half the cards ether trash, have on-trash benefits, are activated by trashing or deal with the trash in some way. DA is by far one of the best expansions. Although I'll guess you think Prosperity is the best... the expansion that encourages simple strategies around simple treasure cards.

2. Spoils are swingy because in a BM-ish deck it really depends on whether you can make to the next $ level when you draw it. Think about gold in a BM-ish game. Getting to the first gold early and then getting another gold when you draw the first gold gives the player quite some advantage. Now if you can only use that gold once the difference becomes even more significant. And Honestly if you play Marauder+BM for a few times you'll see why that card is swingy.

3. I think it is a bad thing shelters make those openings unviable. Enabling fairgrounds to the point that people would almost always go for it isn't so hot either.

4. Graverobber. Yes. But don't you see that play is very similar to the remodel family and the "gain from trash" aspect is not so important? I would say the potential of this card is that it can gain cards back immediately in a turn (say procession something then grave rob it) then maybe play it again. It's just very hard to find a random kingdom to make this work.

5. Knights. I think they are a worthy upgrade of saboteur. Yeah, I can complain how making them different card by card does not alter the strategy space all that much, but due to the nature of the card I actually think it is a good idea. Trashing one card out from the top two cards on deck is very swingy and can be very frustrating at times. (If they are not at times frustrating enough then they are too weak...) Adding some flavor to those games to increase enjoyment can be a good idea.


2. Have you considered Spoils aren't great for BM? Bandit Camp makes for a very controlled deck. Marauder is an early attack card that slows the game down. Most of the time both players will go for it. It not any more swingy or luck based than Sea hag.

3. There are many many kingdoms where Gardens or Silk Roads rush is clearly the winning strategy. Is Trader Feodum a Problem? I don't think so, but it's not an interesting game since it'll probably be better than anything else on the board. There are enough set-ups where the winning strategy is pretty obvious that this complaint should be more general. Sure Fairgrounds gets pumped up, but it's not a problem else you consider Trader/Feodum and maybe even Ironworks/Gardens a problem. In fact, Goons games 99% of the time mean everyone will try to make a Goons engine, because it's just really really good. If Fairgrounds/Shelters is a problem, then these are all problems too. Keep in mind, you're saving 3 essentially useless cards the whole game in order to have 3 more unique cards. It's good, but on the same level as Trader/Feodum.

4. Maybe I'm crazy or something. Graverobber plays like Expand, except cheaper and more affordable. Sure its a variant, but the trash gaining is useful because it pairs up very nicely with it's Remodel ability (Unlike Rogue, which is based on whatever your opponent is buying). Armory plays very similar to Workshop. So do almost ALL the Village variants. I'll do +Actions+cards with Village or Workers Village, they play identically. Yes Workers Village is better, but usually they aren't on the board at the same time, so I can just take it without thinking which is better. Dominion has tons of cards that are variants of each other, and Graverobber adds Trash gaining, which is very different than the other Remodel variants.

5. If Shelters is a problem with Fairgrounds, how is Knights not? And they are very swingy. One person get's Sir Micheal, then the next one is Dame Josephine. Great, so either I let you trash my cards and lower my hand size, or I take the Knight which does nothing for my deck to counter yours, possibly revealing a better Knight underneath. Most of the time I go for Knights is because my opponent went for Knights. We trash the crap out of each other, then we actually start to build our decks once all the Knights are in the trash. Not every game, but many. Many attack cards are frustrating, that's not the point. The point is that complaining about certain cards means you have to apply those complaints to all the cards and see if they fall into your "Not a great expansion" category.
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timchen

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #123 on: June 08, 2013, 04:37:59 am »
0

2. Have you considered Spoils aren't great for BM? Bandit Camp makes for a very controlled deck. Marauder is an early attack card that slows the game down. Most of the time both players will go for it. It not any more swingy or luck based than Sea hag.

3. There are many many kingdoms where Gardens or Silk Roads rush is clearly the winning strategy. Is Trader Feodum a Problem? I don't think so, but it's not an interesting game since it'll probably be better than anything else on the board. There are enough set-ups where the winning strategy is pretty obvious that this complaint should be more general. Sure Fairgrounds gets pumped up, but it's not a problem else you consider Trader/Feodum and maybe even Ironworks/Gardens a problem. In fact, Goons games 99% of the time mean everyone will try to make a Goons engine, because it's just really really good. If Fairgrounds/Shelters is a problem, then these are all problems too. Keep in mind, you're saving 3 essentially useless cards the whole game in order to have 3 more unique cards. It's good, but on the same level as Trader/Feodum.

4. Maybe I'm crazy or something. Graverobber plays like Expand, except cheaper and more affordable. Sure its a variant, but the trash gaining is useful because it pairs up very nicely with it's Remodel ability (Unlike Rogue, which is based on whatever your opponent is buying). Armory plays very similar to Workshop. So do almost ALL the Village variants. I'll do +Actions+cards with Village or Workers Village, they play identically. Yes Workers Village is better, but usually they aren't on the board at the same time, so I can just take it without thinking which is better. Dominion has tons of cards that are variants of each other, and Graverobber adds Trash gaining, which is very different than the other Remodel variants.

5. If Shelters is a problem with Fairgrounds, how is Knights not? And they are very swingy. One person get's Sir Micheal, then the next one is Dame Josephine. Great, so either I let you trash my cards and lower my hand size, or I take the Knight which does nothing for my deck to counter yours, possibly revealing a better Knight underneath. Most of the time I go for Knights is because my opponent went for Knights. We trash the crap out of each other, then we actually start to build our decks once all the Knights are in the trash. Not every game, but many. Many attack cards are frustrating, that's not the point. The point is that complaining about certain cards means you have to apply those complaints to all the cards and see if they fall into your "Not a great expansion" category.

I really have to doubt your logic here:

2. I don't care whether spoils are good or not in a BM deck. But they are definitely more swingy. Sure you can play them in a controlled manner in an engine (this probably only works with bandit camp though) but then in those cases it's not too different from virtual coin. The marauder is certainly more swingy then sea hag without the discard-top-op-the-deck part, due to the effect I mentioned.

3. It is not a game-breaking problem for some kingdoms to have clear dominant strategy, but it is certainly preferable for the kingdom to have diverse viable strategies. And I am not even complaining fairgrounds/shelters is a problem, my point is just that the shelters should have given you more interesting games but in many situations they do not differ meaningfully from estates(except necropolis). And the examples you give are actually cases where they make the kingdom even less interesting.

4. I agree with you on grave robber. My problem about the card is just that it starts from some interesting premises (gain from trash!) but in the end it just plays like another remodel variant.

5. Maybe I should reinstate what I am complaining. I am complaining that if I include DA and choose my kingdom completely randomly, it seems I will more frequently get less interesting kingdoms comparing to w/o DA. And the complaints for the cards are the reasons I think why this is the case, especially since people like you seeing the flashy and complicated cards in DA are calling it the best expansion.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #124 on: June 08, 2013, 04:48:27 am »
0

I disagree.  If there isn't a good $6 (read: Border Village), or something else to hit (read: Fortress), Procession is a bad idea.  You are spending $4 on Proc when you could be buying something else.  Then you are counting on it to collide with your Mountebank, when it's a dead card otherwise... and that'll be often, since you'll be getting hit by Mountebank as well.  And then you're spending another $5 to re-buy a Mountebank?  The opportunity cost of two buys for $4 and $5 is significant, and that's in the SUCCESS scenario.  You might not get Proc with your MB at all.
Here's a game against a top player where we both went for Procession/Mountebank, with only Adventurer at $6. I was fortunate to connect mine twice before my opponent did; I won by resignation. OK, so those turns I give two Curses and two Coppers, I do nothing else except replace my Mountebank... but there is an opportunity cost associated with not giving your opponent four junk cards at a time. Winning the Curse split is a big deal. Besides, there are almost always $4s available that you will want to double anyway (Marauder in this game), so you get more Mountebanks that way.

I think a lot of people fail to connect their Procession with anything, and think that is the fault of the card; you have to play differently, not only can you afford to have a much higher action density, but you actually need that higher action density to make sure your Procession doesn't whiff. Obviously Procession would be a terrible addition to BM/Smithy, you have to play a particular kind of deck.

In the latter game, that loss is more due to Fairgrounds, I think. :P  Buying Ruins is not generally a path to success, Menagerie or not. ;)
Fairgrounds isn't what enabled those deck-drawing megaturns... my opponent had nine Menageries, and trashed all their Copper. Yes, they had three Fairgrounds at 6VP each, but I lost by 30 points. Remove Fairgrounds from that game and I still would have lost, even if my opponent just passed the turns buying Fairgrounds - but without Menagerie, the whole thing doesn't work. I gave him 6 Ruins by turn 11, but Crossroads also provides +actions enough that they actually played a lot of those Ruins. Hence, a Menagerie/Ruins engine. (-:
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #125 on: June 08, 2013, 05:07:54 am »
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3. I think it is a bad thing shelters make those openings unviable. Enabling fairgrounds to the point that people would almost always go for it isn't so hot either.

3. There are many many kingdoms where Gardens or Silk Roads rush is clearly the winning strategy. Is Trader Feodum a Problem? I don't think so, but it's not an interesting game since it'll probably be better than anything else on the board. There are enough set-ups where the winning strategy is pretty obvious that this complaint should be more general. Sure Fairgrounds gets pumped up, but it's not a problem else you consider Trader/Feodum and maybe even Ironworks/Gardens a problem. In fact, Goons games 99% of the time mean everyone will try to make a Goons engine, because it's just really really good. If Fairgrounds/Shelters is a problem, then these are all problems too. Keep in mind, you're saving 3 essentially useless cards the whole game in order to have 3 more unique cards. It's good, but on the same level as Trader/Feodum.

I want to comment on this, because Trader/Feodum is just "if you ignore this, you will lose", whereas it is often easy to ignore Fairgrounds/Shelters. If you get 4 Fairgrounds, your Shelters will average 4*3*2VP/5 ~= 5VP which is not so much better than keeping your Estates in a normal game, those give you 3VP.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #126 on: June 08, 2013, 05:49:58 am »
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This comparison is meaningless as your opponent won't have those estates.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #127 on: June 08, 2013, 05:57:18 am »
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Scenario 1: Fairgrounds game with Shelters. I trash my Shelters, you don't. We get 4 Fairgrounds each, your Shelters produce on average 5VP total more than mine.

Scenario 2: Fairgrounds game with Estates. I trash my Estates, you don't. We get 4 Fairgrounds each, your Estates produce 3VP total more than mine.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 06:00:38 am by Warfreak2 »
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #128 on: June 08, 2013, 07:04:33 am »
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So you want to compare whether u want to trash those initial shelters or not. They play nothing like estates in this case. if you know those 3 can pump you up the next level they worth 8 vp  with 4 fairgrounds but otherwise 0. It's more like 3 duchies when it matters.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #129 on: June 08, 2013, 07:35:37 am »
+2

I disagree.  If there isn't a good $6 (read: Border Village), or something else to hit (read: Fortress), Procession is a bad idea.  You are spending $4 on Proc when you could be buying something else.  Then you are counting on it to collide with your Mountebank, when it's a dead card otherwise... and that'll be often, since you'll be getting hit by Mountebank as well.  And then you're spending another $5 to re-buy a Mountebank?  The opportunity cost of two buys for $4 and $5 is significant, and that's in the SUCCESS scenario.  You might not get Proc with your MB at all.
Here's a game against a top player where we both went for Procession/Mountebank, with only Adventurer at $6. I was fortunate to connect mine twice before my opponent did; I won by resignation. OK, so those turns I give two Curses and two Coppers, I do nothing else except replace my Mountebank... but there is an opportunity cost associated with not giving your opponent four junk cards at a time. Winning the Curse split is a big deal. Besides, there are almost always $4s available that you will want to double anyway (Marauder in this game), so you get more Mountebanks that way.

I think a lot of people fail to connect their Procession with anything, and think that is the fault of the card; you have to play differently, not only can you afford to have a much higher action density, but you actually need that higher action density to make sure your Procession doesn't whiff. Obviously Procession would be a terrible addition to BM/Smithy, you have to play a particular kind of deck.
One lucky game does not make the point of 'this is a good strategy'. I mean I bought chancellor/silver, then gold, then province, province, province, province, province, province. Clearly chancellor/BM is crazy strong, right. Okay, that's an overboard example. A better example would be like opening throne room/swindler, then getting a second swindler and second throne room on the next shuffle. Or opening potion to go for golems, with no cheaper potion-cost cards. Can it hit right and give you a good position? Yup. Is it a good idea? Probably not.
But I can't figure out why you would possibly get a procession seeking to hit mountebank with it. Now, sure, if you have a big engine, and you have mountebank, maybe you get procession. But this has really nothing to do with it being mountebank. I mean, your example feels bad to me, because you almost always prefer if you would have just had throne room, and there are other cases where you'd prefer procession. Anyway, the big point is, sure you can still have high enough action density, but mountebank is actively working against you there.

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #130 on: June 08, 2013, 07:40:43 am »
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Your Fairgrounds can hit 8VP if you keep three junk cards in your deck for the whole game, and are very careful to buy everything including a Curse, great for you. You'll manage one or two Provinces, but a trimmed deck has many chances to compete, even if my Fairgrounds are only worth 4VP. It's definitely not a given that in a Shelters game you always want to go for Fairgrounds and keep your Shelters to boost them to 8VP. I'm not even convinced that that's dominant half of the time.

So it's totally not comparable to Trader/Feodum. If the other player ignores it, my Feoda will be worth 8VP+ without any difficulty at all, and I'll still manage four Provinces with all that Silver. A denied Feodum is worth only 1-2VP to a non-mirror opponent.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #131 on: June 08, 2013, 07:42:06 am »
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One lucky game does not make the point of 'this is a good strategy'.
My point wasn't that I won, of course I was lucky to win. My point was that my opponent, rated ~6500 on Goko, went for the same thing.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #132 on: June 08, 2013, 07:51:54 am »
+1

One lucky game does not make the point of 'this is a good strategy'.
My point wasn't that I won, of course I was lucky to win. My point was that my opponent, rated ~6500 on Goko, went for the same thing.

That log doesn't say to me that you both went Procession to play it with Mountebank. It says that you went Procession mainly to play it with Marauder, with the intention of upgrading those into Mountebank. That's an entirely different beast -- if there wasn't a great $4 target for Procession, I'm guessing neither of you would have bought Procession in the first place.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #133 on: June 08, 2013, 07:54:01 am »
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One lucky game does not make the point of 'this is a good strategy'.
My point wasn't that I won, of course I was lucky to win. My point was that my opponent, rated ~6500 on Goko, went for the same thing.
As a 6500+ on Goko, I can say I do stupid things all the time - this does not make them un-stupid.

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #134 on: June 08, 2013, 08:11:53 am »
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That log doesn't say to me that you both went Procession to play it with Mountebank.
On turn 6, my opponent Processions their Marauder, but never gets another one for the rest of the game. On later turns they buy two Mountebanks and another Procession (and one Pearl Diver on a $2 $3 hand). I don't think there's any ambiguity about what the second Procession was intended for.

As a 6500+ on Goko, I can say I do stupid things all the time - this does not make them un-stupid.
(-:
I think it puts a reasonable lower bound on how stupid it is, though!

I think this is the sort of thing that should only really be answered by simulators - does Mountebank+Procession/Big Money beat Mountebank/Big Money? Proposed buy order is up to 10 Mountebanks and up to 2 Processions (while there are more than 3 Curses left), play order is to always Procession a Mountebank if you can, or play a Mountebank, or Procession a Procession into another Mountebank.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 08:16:21 am by Warfreak2 »
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #135 on: June 08, 2013, 08:26:44 am »
+2

I think the answer is pretty clear no.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #136 on: June 08, 2013, 08:42:30 am »
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That log doesn't say to me that you both went Procession to play it with Mountebank.
On turn 6, my opponent Processions their Marauder, but never gets another one for the rest of the game. On later turns they buy two Mountebanks and another Procession (and one Pearl Diver on a $2 $3 hand). I don't think there's any ambiguity about what the second Procession was intended for.
I do! Just because he *didn't* buy another one doesn't mean he wasn't planning on it, or planning to do it under the right circumstances anyway. I mean, clearly we aren't saying 'never procession your mountebank' here, we are saying 'mountebank and procession on board? Go for both!' is a bad inference (yes, sometimes you go for both. But not just from these two).

Of course, beyond this, he could have been planning on procession-ing his procession so as to get another mountebank. This at the very least skews the second procession better.

Quote
As a 6500+ on Goko, I can say I do stupid things all the time - this does not make them un-stupid.
(-:
I think it puts a reasonable lower bound on how stupid it is, though!
I don't, really. I mean, I have made a play that forced me to lose, when I had like 3-4 that forced me to win. that's pretty close to as-stupid-as-you-can-get.

Quote
I think this is the sort of thing that should only really be answered by simulators - does Mountebank+Procession/Big Money beat Mountebank/Big Money? Proposed buy order is up to 10 Mountebanks and up to 2 Processions (while there are more than 3 Curses left), play order is to always Procession a Mountebank if you can, or play a Mountebank, or Procession a Procession into another Mountebank.
There is absolutely nothing that can only be answered by simulators! Of course, they are the fastest way to do some things. Anyway, I don't know any sim that has procession, but here it's incredibly obvious that such a but doesn't want any processions.

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #137 on: June 08, 2013, 09:13:51 am »
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That log doesn't say to me that you both went Procession to play it with Mountebank.
On turn 6, my opponent Processions their Marauder, but never gets another one for the rest of the game. On later turns they buy two Mountebanks and another Procession (and one Pearl Diver on a $2 $3 hand). I don't think there's any ambiguity about what the second Procession was intended for.

As a 6500+ on Goko, I can say I do stupid things all the time - this does not make them un-stupid.
(-:
I think it puts a reasonable lower bound on how stupid it is, though!

Not at all! As a 6500+ player I manage to do stuff that makes absolutely no sense in only half of my games, whereas that was at least in 3/4 of them when I was still in the low 6000s.

Not to speak of minor and major tactical errors, which happen almost every turn from the midgame onwards.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #138 on: June 08, 2013, 11:37:57 am »
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I would be more convinced if the opponent had gone for MB without Proc and you beat him with it. As it is, Marauder heavily skews things as a good Proc target because it can become MB, which in turn makes MB an acceptable target because you have a good way of getting more. The game is also a poor example because your opponent resigned.

On the Menagerie-Ruins engine, calling it that makes it sound like it's viable to buy Ruins for the purpose of activating Menagerie more, which I think I'd false. But Menagerie is a good defense to Ruins, and Fairgrounds is a great reason not to Loot someone at all.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #139 on: June 08, 2013, 11:47:56 am »
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Oh, wait. Marauder? Marauder? This actually just answers the question right there - those ruins can get trashed by procession.

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #140 on: June 08, 2013, 11:54:08 am »
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On the Menagerie-Ruins engine, calling it that makes it sound like it's viable to buy Ruins for the purpose of activating Menagerie more, which I think I'd false. But Menagerie is a good defense to Ruins, and Fairgrounds is a great reason not to Loot someone at all.
Of course you aren't going to buy Ruins, there's an opportunity cost. I call it a Menagerie/Ruins engine because Crossroads and University let them actually play the Ruins relatively frequently. And it's amusing. If somebody really gets the idea to buy out the Ruins to activate their Menageries, I want to see the game log, that sounds good.
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joel88s

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #141 on: June 08, 2013, 02:42:41 pm »
+2

Hey and how about that Herald?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #142 on: June 09, 2013, 01:39:45 am »
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I think that not making this "you may play it" is a big mistake. Sure, it removes an (extremely small) amount of "complexity", but in return you'll get a lot of resentment when people are forced to play Remake, Trading Post, Junk Dealer etc. and trash a good card from their hand. It's not as bad as the possibility of being forced to trash a good card with Lookout, but it's the kind of luck based risk that isn't fun and isn't present in many other dominion cards.

Also it makes the same mistake as Wishing Well (and Ironmonger, although that card's not as annoying because it always gives you SOME benefit) by not having the ability to combo with top decking cards. It definitely comes across as more annoying than a deliberate design choice. It won't be annoying as Wishing well, where you're forced to make a random guess even though you've invested in cards that allow more predictability, but it probably would have been better served by having the effects reversed, or having a vanilla effect that doesn't have +cards (similar to how Mystic "fixed wishing well). Instead it's a spammable cantrip that is occasionally excellent, with the only strategic element being "buy it if you have a lot of actions".

The overpay effect is cool, and seems to be the real purpose of the card, but it seems like an accident that it doesn't actually help the card its attached to. A stash-like "anywhere in your deck" effect would have fixed that.

This card will be good, but it reminds me of a fan-card. I wouldn't put it alongside failed cards like Thief, Scout or Counting House, but it does seem haphazardly designed.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 01:52:43 am by NoMoreFun »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #143 on: June 09, 2013, 02:11:02 am »
+1

I have to disagree with that.  Forcing you to play the card means that you have to plan around that.  If you want to Herald, you need to think twice before grabbing a Remake.  If it wasn't a mandatory play, then Herald becomes too safe a card.  Not to mention, a forced play keeps it in line with Golem.  I doubt that this was not a deliberate decision and I imagine that Donald X would have playtested a non-mandatory version as well.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #144 on: June 09, 2013, 03:00:33 am »
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I have to disagree with that.  Forcing you to play the card means that you have to plan around that.  If you want to Herald, you need to think twice before grabbing a Remake.  If it wasn't a mandatory play, then Herald becomes too safe a card.  Not to mention, a forced play keeps it in line with Golem.  I doubt that this was not a deliberate decision and I imagine that Donald X would have playtested a non-mandatory version as well.

I'd put it into the same category as reactions that hurt the attacker. I don't think it's interesting or fun to be accidentally forced to trash cards, even if it's something you can account for. Lookout and Golem are the only other cards where you have a small but real chance of being forced to trash a good card, to the point where playing a card shouldn't intrinsically feel like a gamble. It's much worse to be "mostly safe" than "mostly unsafe", because if you end up not drawing a junk card with Upgrade/Rats/Junk Dealer and are forced to trash one of your good cards, it feels like your fault for taking such a long shot, whereas being forced to trash a good card with Lookout feels like you're being punished heavily for being unlucky.

Donald X tends to make cards as simple as possible. There aren't many cards with a "you may" effect where you would choose the effect 99% of the time; cards like Mint and KC have it because "or reveal a hand with no ____" takes up more room. I don't think he would have considered it for a second. Also I'm skeptical of how much obviously incompetent cards like Scout, and by extension all cards, were playtested.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 03:02:32 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #145 on: June 09, 2013, 04:01:58 am »
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I don't know.  I think it's worth snipping the little bit of complexity.

I feel like if you've crafted a deck that flips Remakes off the top, it doesn't matter much whether you forceplay it and trash a gold and a silver, or toss it in the discard pile and call the whole ordeal a 4$ cursed Great Hall.  I think you lost either way.


The card is already weak, so making its nombos only half nombos isn't going to make the card more buyable on more boards, because any amount of nombosity is going to turn the decision tree into "Nope, I'm not buying Heralds at all here" or, more rarely, "nope, I'm not buying any mandatory trashers that might upset my Heralds here".

When you look at specific cards it's even more implausible that the three letter word may is going to help out.  Trading Post?  There's no way Herald is going to work out in a deck full of Silvers.  Remake?  Remake is way too fast for Heralds, and tends to shred the total $ amount remaining in deck total, making Herald less viable than Conspirator or even Market stacks that at least add 1$ to your total deck coinage.  (Ok, Market is extreme, but you get the idea, there will be something better.  Even Village/Smithy/Gold deck)

Single target mandatory trashers aren't going to hit the hand hard enough to cause a problem.  You'll find something to trash.  Hey you can even just trash a Herald without decreasing the total amount of coin remaining in your deck.  It's like my posts in this thread have a recurring theme or something.

Well that's my opinion.  Maybe I'll have egg on my face later
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #146 on: June 09, 2013, 04:38:57 am »
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Unlike with Golem, trashers (should) have a very positive synergy, as thinning your deck is a good way to increase your density of actions. The fact your trasher could backfire on you lets that down a bit, and not in an interesting way. Why should Steward be safe but Remake be risky, other than alliteration? Being forced to trash good card into other cards or nothing is much, much worse than having a "dead" card in your next hand, as I'm sure everyone would think when this situation pops up.

I'm more annoyed about nomboing with top deckers like Spy. Donald X "fixed" Wishing Well with Mystic, then made the same mistake with another card in the next expansion. Ironmonger is fine because it always gives you some effect, but it's annoying when the difference between a powerful effect and nothing comes down to luck.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #147 on: June 09, 2013, 04:42:59 am »
+1

Steward is generally a safer card than Remake. Take Heralds and Golems out of the equation and look at them again. Whenever your Steward comes up you only don't play it if you need that action for something more important. When the remake comes up you take a look over your hand and decide whether it really benefits you to play it. When you buy it you're consigning yourself to later having a card that later is a lot more likely to be dead weight. The auto-play cards are just intensifying a contrast that's already there.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #148 on: June 09, 2013, 05:59:06 am »
0

Steward is generally a safer card than Remake. Take Heralds and Golems out of the equation and look at them again. Whenever your Steward comes up you only don't play it if you need that action for something more important. When the remake comes up you take a look over your hand and decide whether it really benefits you to play it. When you buy it you're consigning yourself to later having a card that later is a lot more likely to be dead weight. The auto-play cards are just intensifying a contrast that's already there.

The only problem is that the consequence is making the remake a "dead" card. However saying that herald is a "dead" card is not quite right; more than likely playing it will give you a card and could possibly give you an additional benefit. The probability of it backfiring is so low it won't enter most players heads when they play the card, which will make it hurt a lot more when it backfires.

It won't quite feel as bad as being forced to trash a good card with lookout when you still have plenty of bad cards in your deck, but  2 words and an extra click per play online is worth stopping the rage.
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Kirian

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #149 on: June 09, 2013, 09:56:05 am »
+1

I'm not feeling the hate, NMF.  Golem is an extremely risky buy if there are mandatory trashers in your deck.  Herald is a similarly risky choice in that situation.  Meanwhile, Ambassador is a risky choice with Possession on the board, and I'm sure we could cone up with many other such risky plays.

Sure, the on-play ability is weak, much like Inn or Watchtower.  I think the overbuy ability is the major reason to buy this, and the on-play ability is a bonus, sometimes a bigger one, sometimes a really awful one.  There are plenty of such examples; you don't buy Scrying Pool for its attack, you don't buy Watchtower for its Moat-like draw except on specific boards, you don't pull the mask off the ol' Lone Ranger, and you don't buy Herald for its on-play effect.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #150 on: June 09, 2013, 11:12:48 am »
+9

I think that not making this "you may play it" is a big mistake. Sure, it removes an (extremely small) amount of "complexity", but in return you'll get a lot of resentment when people are forced to play Remake, Trading Post, Junk Dealer etc. and trash a good card from their hand. It's not as bad as the possibility of being forced to trash a good card with Lookout, but it's the kind of luck based risk that isn't fun and isn't present in many other dominion cards.

You seem to dislike random outcomes. This just in: Dominion is a game which consists almost entirely of manipulating random outcomes to be more favorable to you. The only kind of risk in Dominion is "luck based risk". People perceive trashing something good as different then drawing $7 with a Smithy, but they are the SAME THING.

Quote
Also it makes the same mistake as Wishing Well (and Ironmonger, although that card's not as annoying because it always gives you SOME benefit) by not having the ability to combo with top decking cards. It definitely comes across as more annoying than a deliberate design choice. It won't be annoying as Wishing well, where you're forced to make a random guess even though you've invested in cards that allow more predictability, but it probably would have been better served by having the effects reversed, or having a vanilla effect that doesn't have +cards (similar to how Mystic "fixed wishing well). Instead it's a spammable cantrip that is occasionally excellent, with the only strategic element being "buy it if you have a lot of actions".

In the absence of deck inspection combos, the versions of these cards where the cantrip part comes first allow you to make better guesses because you have more information (drawn one more card) whenever you make your wish. Of course, these cards absolutely do combo with other deck inspection cards (besides Spy) and counter the attacks which mess with the top of your deck, but you seem to think this isn't true.

The other issue is one of readability of the cards. Oracle is the only (I think) card where the standard vanilla effects appear after something wordy. This is a minor point of course.

Quote
This card will be good, but it reminds me of a fan-card. I wouldn't put it alongside failed cards like Thief, Scout or Counting House, but it does seem haphazardly designed.

Thief is significantly better in games with more than two players (though still not great). Scout is a card which combos with cards in its own set (Great Hall, Nobles, Harem), which meant it probably looked better in playtesting Intrigue. Of course Scout still sucks even when those cards are available. Counting House is a fantastic card in large part because it's so worthless. You play all these games and Counting House sits there neglected and unused, but that's not a big deal, 9 cards is plenty to build with. Then suddenly there's this board and the clouds part and shine a light down on Counting House and suddenly Counting House is The Star. I think that's incredibly fun and it's even more fun when your opponent doesn't see it, because of course Counting House was "haphazardly designed".
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Spiral Architect

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #151 on: June 09, 2013, 12:12:49 pm »
0

This seems fun! It can build with a lot of cards to make good engines, and that's always fun.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #152 on: June 09, 2013, 12:20:10 pm »
+1

Quote
You seem to dislike random outcomes. This just in: Dominion is a game which consists almost entirely of manipulating random outcomes to be more favorable to you. The only kind of risk in Dominion is "luck based risk". People perceive trashing something good as different then drawing $7 with a Smithy, but they are the SAME THING.

Perception's the issue; two words is a small price to pay to save the ill will that inevitably comes up when this card reveals a Junk Dealer or Trading Post late game. Being hurt and not moving ahead as quickly feel completely different.

Quote
In the absence of deck inspection combos, the versions of these cards where the cantrip part comes first allow you to make better guesses because you have more information (drawn one more card) whenever you make your wish. Of course, these cards absolutely do combo with other deck inspection cards (besides Spy) and counter the attacks which mess with the top of your deck, but you seem to think this isn't true

Mystic combos with far more cards than Wishing Well. There are many more cards that let you know what the top card of your deck is (including failed mystics/wishing wells) than cards that let you know the top 2 or more (Scout, Navigator, Apothecary, Cartographer, Doctor, being hit with a Ghost Ship or Rabble). The point about the extra card making guessing easier is mostly moot (it will still be a crapshoot in most scenarios), and is definitely moot with Herald. Drawing an action you just Scavenged or gained with Armory, then revealing a Gold and putting it back is going to be annoying as hell. The card's designed to do something more than a regular cantrip, but unfortunately that effect's left to randomness.

On the points raised on other "badly designed" cards, it's all about space. With this as the last set, every card counts, and there's good grounds for resenting the slot taken up by cards that are designed to be sort of ok in 4 player, sort of ok in their own expansion, or bad in almost every game until it shines.  Every deliberate joke and trap card is taking up a slot that an interesting, dynamic card could have. There's also the opportunity cost; there's no room for a less swingy Herald, a fixed scout etc. because those ideas have been done and new cards would be a retread, as well as the issue with costing "strictly better" cards.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #153 on: June 09, 2013, 12:27:13 pm »
+4

On the points raised on other "badly designed" cards, it's all about space. With this as the last set, every card counts, and there's good grounds for resenting the slot taken up by cards that are designed to be sort of ok in 4 player, sort of ok in their own expansion, or bad in almost every game until it shines.

This wasn't going to be the last expansion. Dark Ages was. Also, if you occasionally played games that used 2 or 3 expansions rather than playing full random all the time, you'd probably really like those sorts of cards.

Every deliberate joke and trap card is taking up a slot that an interesting, dynamic card could have. There's also the opportunity cost; there's no room for a less swingy Herald, a fixed scout etc. because those ideas have been done and new cards would be a retread, as well as the issue with costing "strictly better" cards.

I don't think there are any cards that are meant to be jokes or traps. Scout seemed fine when it was being tested with mostly Intrigue cards.

Also, I think you should play a dozen games with Herald before you get up in arms about how much better it could have been, Mr. Monday Morning Dominion Card Designer.
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popsofctown

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #154 on: June 09, 2013, 08:26:22 pm »
0

Quote from: Mic
In the absence of deck inspection combos, the versions of these cards where the cantrip part comes first allow you to make better guesses because you have more information (drawn one more card) whenever you make your wish.

Is this statement true even if you average it out with the times that the cantripping triggers a reshuffle?
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #155 on: June 09, 2013, 08:57:08 pm »
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Quote
As a 6500+ on Goko, I can say I do stupid things all the time - this does not make them un-stupid.
(-:
I think it puts a reasonable lower bound on how stupid it is, though!
I don't, really. I mean, I have made a play that forced me to lose, when I had like 3-4 that forced me to win. that's pretty close to as-stupid-as-you-can-get.

For instance, I just played a game where it got to the end, my opponent had 10 curses, 7 Silk Road, 11 estates. I had 0 curses, 0 estates, 2 duchies, 3 provinces, and $4. I thought for 30 seconds, *knew* that this is what we both had, thought that 3 provinces was worth 24 points, and so bought the last SR, to force a loss...

popsofctown

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #156 on: June 09, 2013, 09:26:31 pm »
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3*8=24, checks out.
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jonts26

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #157 on: June 09, 2013, 09:30:35 pm »
+1

3*8=24, checks out.

3*8=18 in hexidecimal. Should have used that.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #158 on: June 10, 2013, 01:09:42 am »
+1


This wasn't going to be the last expansion. Dark Ages was. Also, if you occasionally played games that used 2 or 3 expansions rather than playing full random all the time, you'd probably really like those sorts of cards.

I don't think there are any cards that are meant to be jokes or traps.

The issue isn't that guilds is last, the issue is that there was a planned, finite number of expansions in a game that's so easily expandable (as any keen fan card designer would know), so every card counts. I do like how each expansion is themed and synergistic (if anything they aren't themed enough), but with very few special setup rules, it's so easy to bring them into the fold and leave them there, that cards like Scout begin to stick out.

Thief is the highly likely to be a deliberate trap, as a card that steals opponent coppers, which seems like something that's reasonably good to a beginner player until they know better.
From the "Dominion Time Machine" post:
Quote
It would be nice if Thief were stronger, but it already scares new players, and once everyone was new.
I'm ok with this concept, but there's ways of making cards that initially seem good, then seem bad, that still remain useful at the highest levels of play (eg Workshop). Thief could have been replaced by a hint in the rulebook, or by having a card like Beggar or Cache in the base set (which would actively make players consider the true value of copper). The fact that Noble Brigand exists as a "fixed" Thief is all the more damaging.

Rats is also an example of a deliberate joke/trap card, which is actually useless outside of its combos, but it is easy enough to understand and strong enough when it works that I'm ok with it. Cards like Counting House which don't even work properly when you identify it's niche use are worse.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 01:11:49 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #159 on: June 10, 2013, 01:22:44 am »
0

Also, I think you should play a dozen games with Herald before you get up in arms about how much better it could have been, Mr. Monday Morning Dominion Card Designer.

Some cards don't need to be "better" in terms of power or balance, but in other ways. For example, I think Fortress would have been cooler if it went to your hand when you gain it as well as trash it. It's a small impact on power, but it's a cool playing effect with some neat combos, and one that would be so easy to add. Of course thinking harder there's some rules issues (what happens when you gain fortress with Armory?), so maybe that's why it's not on any card, but that's an example of thinking how a card could possibly be better without needing to gauge it's power.

I also don't think I'd enjoy seeing, for example, Lookout and Herald on the same board, and thinking they combo (multipe cards! top deck!), then thinking harder and realising they don't when deciding on initial buys. It doesn't require any playing to be disappointed by a Nombo.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #160 on: June 10, 2013, 02:22:38 am »
0

Having an indefinite amount of expansions would be a mistake.  Donald X has posted plenty of reasoning on this topic. 

Even Thief is good in some setups.  And as Donald X always says, not every card can be the best.  It doesn't make sense to call Rats a joke or a trap -- it is very clearly a card meant for combos.  It does not pretend to be an awesome one card show, so I don't see why you call it out.  Counting House does fine in its niche.

And it is fine that there are nombos.  Not every card will work together.

It really sounds like you want more and more complexity just for complexity's sake.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #161 on: June 10, 2013, 04:04:27 am »
0

Having an indefinite amount of expansions would be a mistake.  Donald X has posted plenty of reasoning on this topic. 

Even Thief is good in some setups.  And as Donald X always says, not every card can be the best.  It doesn't make sense to call Rats a joke or a trap -- it is very clearly a card meant for combos.  It does not pretend to be an awesome one card show, so I don't see why you call it out.  Counting House does fine in its niche.

And it is fine that there are nombos.  Not every card will work together.

It really sounds like you want more and more complexity just for complexity's sake.

Not every card can be the best, but they should at least try to make every card very effective at what it's supposed to do. Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk, and it isn't outclassed entirely by Noble Brigand in games with alt treasures (none of which are in the base set), but it's woefully inept so often for reasons obvious to any player who's gotten past the basic misconceptions.

I personally enjoy Dominion the most when a batch of new cards come out and I have no idea what to do with them, or when I discover a combo or strategy for the first time. In this light, even a card like Thief has some value; the flaws start to show when things stagnate. As long as there are new, relatively simple, interesting card ideas which don't embarrass existing cards (or even if they do ie Noble Brigand) that add something new to the table, I'd like to see them all be explored. Maybe that's one more set. Maybe that's 20. It's not zero, as scrawling through the fan card forum would reveal. Magic the gathering is going strong with cards, and Dominion's easier to design for, given the inherent balance that comes from equal access. It's also a fairly sturdy base that you can build expansions with unique mechanics on top of (ie Alchemy having a different resource). Calling it a day at 200 cards seems far too soon.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #162 on: June 10, 2013, 04:13:28 am »
0

On Nombos:

It's fine that cards that obviously aren't meant to work together don't, but when it comes about because a card is missing a near trivial "you may", or some other near miss, it's a bit disappointing. Disappointing can be interesting in some ways, but it's not intrinsically interesting.

At any rate, even though I think it could be better, I'm really looking forward to using this card (for its overpay effect mainly), despite the negative feeling that the inevitable circumstances of unwanted forced trashing, having an action and treasure come up in the wrong order and other such things may create.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #163 on: June 10, 2013, 07:28:31 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
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popsofctown

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #164 on: June 10, 2013, 09:40:49 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth
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KingZog3

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #165 on: June 10, 2013, 10:52:50 am »
+2

There will always be a worst card, can it sounds like you'll always say that the worst card needs bumping up. The truth is if every card were of an equal and balanced strength, then Dominion would 100% luck. Every strategy, although different, would be of equal strength.

When Venture and Thief are on the same board, you don't play a Venture based deck. That's big enough to say Thief has a place in the game. It counters a card without either of them having been bought. It changes the set-up. Fine, Scout isn't good, but with Intrigue cards it looks fine. Draw 4 Great Halls into my hand and similar stuff is probably what made Scout a $4 card.
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Powerman

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #166 on: June 10, 2013, 11:00:07 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.
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KingZog3

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #167 on: June 10, 2013, 11:10:52 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

This also fits into "playing with only a few expansions." This would be pretty good with only a few expansions in the randomizer deck, and yes still decent in a few set-ups with all expansions.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #168 on: June 10, 2013, 11:26:02 am »
+1

On the Menagerie-Ruins engine, calling it that makes it sound like it's viable to buy Ruins for the purpose of activating Menagerie more, which I think I'd false. But Menagerie is a good defense to Ruins, and Fairgrounds is a great reason not to Loot someone at all.
If somebody really gets the idea to buy out the Ruins to activate their Menageries, I want to see the game log, that sounds good.

I did it, but it was in real life: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8051.0
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #169 on: June 10, 2013, 11:49:49 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #170 on: June 10, 2013, 11:54:54 am »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.

I think that's Thief's biggest downfall. If it produced even $1 it would be useful in a decent percentage of games. In fact, that's my Scout fix, too. +$1.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #171 on: June 10, 2013, 11:59:46 am »
0

There will always be a worst card, can it sounds like you'll always say that the worst card needs bumping up. The truth is if every card were of an equal and balanced strength, then Dominion would 100% luck. Every strategy, although different, would be of equal strength.

Curse is (more than likely, nitpickers) the worst card in Dominion if you want to use the "some card has to be the worst" logic. I think that every card should at least appeal to some strategy or type of player, and be "good" in a decent number of contexts. Dominion's generally pretty decent with this, but some cards don't quite make it.

There don't need to be good and bad cards for there to be variety and strategy. The idea is that some strategies counter other strategies, and there are multiple strategies on the board to choose from. The goal is to figure out your opponents strategy, and adapt a strategy that beats it. Ideally each card would have its chance to shine, but a more realistic scenario is that some cards are fairly useful as a backbone in many games, while other cards make the big plays. Dominion is sort of close to this, and then you get cards that aren't strong enough to be built around, and aren't reliable enough to build from.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #172 on: June 10, 2013, 12:10:50 pm »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.

I think that's Thief's biggest downfall. If it produced even $1 it would be useful in a decent percentage of games. In fact, that's my Scout fix, too. +$1.

How powerful would Thief be if it put one of the stolen treasures in your hand?  (Like, set each trashed treasure from each player aside, and at the end choose one to put in your hand and the others in the trash.)  Seems like it would make it extremely good in games where people trash some Copper.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #173 on: June 10, 2013, 12:16:16 pm »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.

I think that's Thief's biggest downfall. If it produced even $1 it would be useful in a decent percentage of games. In fact, that's my Scout fix, too. +$1.

How powerful would Thief be if it put one of the stolen treasures in your hand?  (Like, set each trashed treasure from each player aside, and at the end choose one to put in your hand and the others in the trash.)  Seems like it would make it extremely good in games where people trash some Copper.

Almost as good as Beggar in 4 player games, for only twice the price.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #174 on: June 10, 2013, 12:44:08 pm »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.

I think that's Thief's biggest downfall. If it produced even $1 it would be useful in a decent percentage of games. In fact, that's my Scout fix, too. +$1.

How powerful would Thief be if it put one of the stolen treasures in your hand?  (Like, set each trashed treasure from each player aside, and at the end choose one to put in your hand and the others in the trash.)  Seems like it would make it extremely good in games where people trash some Copper.

Almost as good as Beggar in 4 player games, for only twice the price.

I dunno.  That's for stealing copper at the beginning of the game.  What if opponents are getting a higher density of more valuable coins in the mid game?  Stealing a gold for a 6 coin swing immediately seems pretty big, and may not be that unlikely in many cases. 
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #175 on: June 10, 2013, 12:55:49 pm »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.

I think that's Thief's biggest downfall. If it produced even $1 it would be useful in a decent percentage of games. In fact, that's my Scout fix, too. +$1.

How powerful would Thief be if it put one of the stolen treasures in your hand?  (Like, set each trashed treasure from each player aside, and at the end choose one to put in your hand and the others in the trash.)  Seems like it would make it extremely good in games where people trash some Copper.

Almost as good as Beggar in 4 player games, for only twice the price.

I dunno.  That's for stealing copper at the beginning of the game.  What if opponents are getting a higher density of more valuable coins in the mid game?  Stealing a gold for a 6 coin swing immediately seems pretty big, and may not be that unlikely in many cases.

Maybe in ideal conditions (against a strategy like BM/Moneylender). I like how it would actually be a decisive counter instead of a way of playing catch up.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #176 on: June 10, 2013, 01:02:20 pm »
0

Thief is good in 4 player games against strategies that both rely on treasures and trash junk,
That's a bit harsh. Thief can be good in 4-player games, OR against strategies that rely on key treasures, OR against heavy trashing.
I think NMF is closer to the truth

4 Player Thief-Gardens is actually pretty strong.  Kind of like Beggar-Gardens, but you trade off a guaranteed 3 cards for a chance at Silver / Gold, and attacking your opponents.

Also the Thief in your hand doesn't give you any money to buy the gardens that turn, so you'll be needing that Silver/Gold badly to afford the Gardens in the slog.

I think that's Thief's biggest downfall. If it produced even $1 it would be useful in a decent percentage of games. In fact, that's my Scout fix, too. +$1.

How powerful would Thief be if it put one of the stolen treasures in your hand?  (Like, set each trashed treasure from each player aside, and at the end choose one to put in your hand and the others in the trash.)  Seems like it would make it extremely good in games where people trash some Copper.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2759.0
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #177 on: June 10, 2013, 05:16:03 pm »
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*Limit 10.
19 with Band of Misfits!

Then your opponent buys the last Herald Scout, and it was the only Action card costing less than $5. Nooooooooooo!!!

FIFY
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #178 on: June 14, 2013, 05:51:35 am »
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I have just played Apothecary+Herald, so cool combo!
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Davio

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #179 on: June 14, 2013, 05:54:16 am »
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I have just played Apothecary+Herald, so cool combo!
Next up: Scout?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #180 on: June 14, 2013, 06:54:00 am »
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I have just played Apothecary+Herald, so cool combo!
Next up: Scout?

I dunno. Does Scout now magically clear Copper from the top of your deck?  :P

EDIT: Whoops! Ha ha! I thought we were talking about Scout/Advisor, not Scout/Herald. Scout/Herald definitely sounds useful.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 01:09:32 pm by LastFootnote »
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shMerker

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #181 on: June 14, 2013, 12:52:44 pm »
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There probably is some synergy with Scout, since it will help you line up action chains and also because when it does clear green it raises the chance that you'll hit an action. That is, assuming you don't have Nobles or Great Hall. In that case I think Herald and Scout start tripping over each other.

Although I think the best stuff happens when Herald hits a terminal. Herald+Bridge = Market+Highway. Herald+Smithy = Laboratoryx3.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #182 on: June 15, 2013, 05:54:03 am »
+10

Just bought a Herald while Possessing my opponent...paid $6 for it, leaving 2 Estates on top of his deck.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #183 on: June 15, 2013, 10:47:52 am »
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Just bought a Herald while Possessing my opponent...paid $6 for it, leaving 2 Estates on top of his deck.

10 turn Possession-Herald pin if opponent has 5 VP and his deck is good enough to consistently make $9! Not so practical, but awesome.
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #184 on: June 15, 2013, 11:07:47 am »
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Just bought a Herald while Possessing my opponent...paid $6 for it, leaving 2 Estates on top of his deck.

10 turn Possession-Herald pin if opponent has 5 VP and his deck is good enough to consistently make $9! Not so practical, but awesome.

And you could do it forever if he and you both have Ambassador!
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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #185 on: June 15, 2013, 12:39:38 pm »
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If he doesn't have an Ambassador, you can give him one. But really, why aren't you Ambassadoring all his good cards back to you, instead of leaving him with a deck that can consistently hit $9?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview #5: Herald
« Reply #186 on: June 15, 2013, 01:36:30 pm »
+2

If he doesn't have an Ambassador, you can give him one. But really, why aren't you Ambassadoring all his good cards back to you, instead of leaving him with a deck that can consistently hit $9?

To taunt him of course.
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