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Author Topic: Preview #4: Butcher  (Read 93841 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #150 on: June 06, 2013, 07:16:00 pm »
0

I don't think you want to use other cards' coin tokens for this.  If you wanted expensive cards, you could just use the coin tokens to buy the cards.  The real strength here, like remodel, is shifting from VP to useful cards and shifting from useful cards to VP. 
I don't think you want to spend many coin tokens, and preferably you don't spend any at all.
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StrongRhino

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #151 on: June 06, 2013, 08:05:25 pm »
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I used some blanks as proxies for this and other Guilds cards IRL.
Butcher got ignored though, so I didn't get to see it used  :(
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RTT

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #152 on: June 06, 2013, 08:07:38 pm »
0

I used some blanks as proxies for this and other Guilds cards IRL.
Butcher got ignored though, so I didn't get to see it used  :(
how could you ignore it ^^ its so new and interesting. I would have bought it just for fun and see how it workes out.
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StrongRhino

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #153 on: June 06, 2013, 08:09:41 pm »
0

I used some blanks as proxies for this and other Guilds cards IRL.
Butcher got ignored though, so I didn't get to see it used  :(
how could you ignore it ^^ its so new and interesting. I would have bought it just for fun and see how it workes out.
I bought the other three cards (Went Merchant Ship/Baker with a single $7 Doctor buy) and wanted to win the game. I was hoping my opponent would buy it. Game was actually really fast, I only got 2 bakers and 1 MS, didn't have time for another 5.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 08:11:01 pm by StrongRhino »
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #154 on: June 06, 2013, 08:54:44 pm »
0

I imagine Butcher could be a good Big Money variant (of course not as good as the good drawers).
In the beginning, use it to turn Estates into Silvers. After that it's at worst a terminal Silver, but with skillfull play of the gold coins it can be much more.
Later it can even out the 7s and turn golds into Provinces.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #155 on: June 06, 2013, 08:59:34 pm »
+2

Okay, so remodel. Remodel is a card I undervalue, I know. I tend to think of it as a not too strong 4-cost, and while vaguely that's right, I know that it can be pretty useful in a lot of cases - particularly engines. This card obviously improves on that in a number of ways. Basically, in a lot of decks, even a decent number of engines, remodel isn't so hot because there is this lull in the midgame where it doesn't have stuff to do. Endgame, it turns stuff into points. Early, it turns estates into engine components. But in the middle it sits. This solves that problem by building up value. It can also build up some value by saving a coin when you turn those estates into villages or whatnot. I *really* don't think you'll end up pumping up coppers very often. Actually, nice $2 cards (think hamlet, squire) can really help this, as you get to keep both tokens. Well, anyway, you still don't want to go 6-cost ->province too often, so I actually think this still isn't all *that* hot for endgames, though obviously better than remodel.

The second big asset of the card is just pile trashing. Now, this is more of a thing on green cards, but you can shorten out the game. he issue here might be, speeding the end of the game via province->province is something you want to do when you're ahead, but engines can tend to get behind. Well, I suppose this helps in an engine mirror. You also might be able to chew through some duchies and dukes with this thing - use it as an anti-alt-VP strategy, and then coast into a few provinces near the end. I don't know how well that will work, but it is at least something to give some consideration to.

And of course, it's a terminal silver-to-spend-whenever. I was expecting one, though what I was really hoping for was woodcutter-but-tokens for $4. To be fair, my gut tells me that might be too strong. Actually, I am not so sure that just getting 2 tokens full stop wouldn't be a pretty good $4 card. I think the flexibility is really that good.

And so I actually think that this is in many ways going to be the biggest use of the card, and that a lot of times, what you want to do with this is play something maybe similar to those decks where backer will shine - Big Money without terminal draw. Basically, a few choice terminals plus the best cantrips plus a good amount of silver and gold, go for provinces pretty quick. But baker wants good 4-cost terminals (a la monument, militia, cutpurse, and their ilk), this wants good 4-cost cantrips (caravan, tournament, peddler if possible). Incidentally, fishing village is pretty nice in these decks, too - lets you get more terminals. And probably in such decks, you go ahead and estate->silver, and well, it's a simple strategy that ought to be good. The nice thing going for this deck is that it can just dive for green very fast - it can always go province->province with a quite nice bonus, and the coin tokens help you from stalling too much as well. I actually think this will be *better* than most terminal-draw big money, though maybe the best few (vault, embassy, wharf - well, wharf is bananas and quite likely you have an engine) will probably be stronger than it for BM. It should combine nicely with courtyard-BM


Having said all of that... I actually kind of think this won't be that good. Or maybe I should say, won't be a power card. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's good, but the problem with this will be the same as with most other 5s, and that is the opportunity cost of a $5 is very high.

werothegreat

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #156 on: June 06, 2013, 09:09:38 pm »
0

I think it will be best on boards with no +Buy, giving you more use for your Coin tokens.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #157 on: June 06, 2013, 10:13:15 pm »
0

I would like to see some of the good players and/or Dominion programmers analysing BM+Butcher vs BM+Monument.
I would think that Butcher gets the Provinces a bit faster with Estate->Silver, clever saving of the coins and Gold->Province.
But even with Duchy dancing I wouldn't think it's quite fast enough to beat the extra points from Monument plays.
The price difference is also a big deal. Butcher costs 5$, so with a 4-3 opening the Estate-> Silver comes relatively late.
I would probably open Monument-Silver with 4-3 and Butcher-nothing with 5-2 and then go for a combination of the two (and get a Butcher and a Monument instead of 2 Monuments or 2 Butchers).
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #158 on: June 07, 2013, 05:21:02 am »
0

The only thing I wish was different about this card is that it would be nice to get an extra reward to downgrade a card. Like, turning a Peddler into a Gold could get you an extra 2 tokens. I guess that would be too wordy though.
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RTT

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #159 on: June 07, 2013, 07:05:27 am »
0

The only thing I wish was different about this card is that it would be nice to get an extra reward to downgrade a card. Like, turning a Peddler into a Gold could get you an extra 2 tokens. I guess that would be too wordy though.
you would rather butcher the peddler to a province and take the 2 coins for you buy or you rnext butcher.
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treebeardtheent

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #160 on: June 07, 2013, 07:09:24 am »
0

I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand.  A Jester?  The Ambassador?  Maybe an entire Village?

Or Princess, or Harem.

Or, of course, Scout.  No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
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Davio

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #161 on: June 07, 2013, 07:12:51 am »
0

I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand.  A Jester?  The Ambassador?  Maybe an entire Village?

Or Princess, or Harem.

Or, of course, Scout.  No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.
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RTT

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #162 on: June 07, 2013, 07:30:03 am »
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I butcher my trusty steed.
mhhhh
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RTT

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #163 on: June 07, 2013, 07:37:42 am »
0

this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name

remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
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DStu

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #164 on: June 07, 2013, 07:43:06 am »
+3

this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name

remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
Kalbausweider?
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ipofanes

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #165 on: June 07, 2013, 07:47:15 am »
0

Bauer. Replace artwork accordingly. Good riddance.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #166 on: June 07, 2013, 08:10:33 am »
+1

I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand.  A Jester?  The Ambassador?  Maybe an entire Village?

Or Princess, or Harem.

Or, of course, Scout.  No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.

Which in turn is more logical than butchering things which aren't objects at all (I guess they aren't things either). How do you butcher an expand? What is 'an expand'? But eh, who cares.

Davio

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #167 on: June 07, 2013, 08:50:30 am »
0

It would make sense if the Butcher would slice up something big (a single card worth at least X) and create smaller, but very nice parts out of it, say 2 cards costing up to $1 less than the trashed card, kind of like a reverse Forge. At least that would be somewhat thematic.

I don't see at all how I'm supposed to connect Butcher to the actual text on the card...
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #168 on: June 07, 2013, 09:56:29 am »
0

I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand.  A Jester?  The Ambassador?  Maybe an entire Village?

Or Princess, or Harem.

Or, of course, Scout.  No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.

Which in turn is more logical than butchering things which aren't objects at all (I guess they aren't things either). How do you butcher an expand? What is 'an expand'? But eh, who cares.

"To butcher" can also mean to mess something up horribly.  Like, I really butchered that expansion job by expanding my Colony into an Estate.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #169 on: June 07, 2013, 09:58:33 am »
+1

It would make sense if the Butcher would slice up something big (a single card worth at least X) and create smaller, but very nice parts out of it, say 2 cards costing up to $1 less than the trashed card, kind of like a reverse Forge. At least that would be somewhat thematic.

I don't see at all how I'm supposed to connect Butcher to the actual text on the card...

I disagree.  You would consider an entire cow useless as a personal buy; you would pay a good deal for a prime piece of meat.  Butcher takes something, cuts it up, and makes it more valuable to the consumers.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #170 on: June 07, 2013, 01:28:46 pm »
0

I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand.  A Jester?  The Ambassador?  Maybe an entire Village?

Or Princess, or Harem.

Or, of course, Scout.  No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.

Which in turn is more logical than butchering things which aren't objects at all (I guess they aren't things either). How do you butcher an expand? What is 'an expand'? But eh, who cares.

"To butcher" can also mean to mess something up horribly.  Like, I really butchered that expansion job by expanding my Colony into an Estate.
Yes, but this entirely misses the point. Butchering an expansion - fine. Butchering an expand - wuzuhuh?

Grujah

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #171 on: June 07, 2013, 02:08:48 pm »
0

Butcher a Baker - get a Harem!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 02:11:35 pm by Grujah »
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Grujah

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #172 on: June 07, 2013, 02:11:47 pm »
+2

Also
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #173 on: June 07, 2013, 02:27:33 pm »
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Also


Pretty close. If Iso had guilds, this would be the art for Butcher for sure.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #174 on: June 07, 2013, 02:38:03 pm »
0

I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand.  A Jester?  The Ambassador?  Maybe an entire Village?

Or Princess, or Harem.

Or, of course, Scout.  No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.

Which in turn is more logical than butchering things which aren't objects at all (I guess they aren't things either). How do you butcher an expand? What is 'an expand'? But eh, who cares.

"To butcher" can also mean to mess something up horribly.  Like, I really butchered that expansion job by expanding my Colony into an Estate.
Yes, but this entirely misses the point. Butchering an expansion - fine. Butchering an expand - wuzuhuh?

Yes, but you can take Butchering a verb to be butchering the process of performing the action corresponding to that verb.
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