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Author Topic: Preview #4: Butcher  (Read 52405 times)

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AJD

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2013, 12:39:06 pm »
+2

The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family?

As noted above, Butcher is a verb.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2013, 12:40:35 pm »
+3

Alright, next card and another "better than X" card, this time Remodel.

The mechanic seems interesting. Like some already pointed out, this is a great endgame accelerator and probably its main use beside the usual remodeling stuff. But remodeling Estates into Silvers and saving some coins for buying when you need them or expanding cards seems also pretty good. We have to wait and see how many other Coin token generators will be there or if there is even other use for them, but this seems strong already as-is. Because what's great is that you don't even need to trash and can just use it as a terminal silver.
I mean a card "Choose one: +2$ or remodel a card" would already be worth $5 for me and Butcher is even more flexible. The competition is tough in the $5 price range. Not many cards you could compare it to. It's clearly better than Graverobber and Mine, but clearly not stronger than all the strong attacks or other power $5s, maybe about slightly above average.

The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family? Disappointed! Call it at least Builder or Restorer or some job who fits the theme not a guy who kinda does the opposite.
BUTCHER
Verb
Slaughter or cut up (an animal) for food: "the meat will be butchered".

Taking a cow to filet mignon is an upgrade.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 12:44:15 pm by Hockey Mask »
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Watno

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2013, 12:41:47 pm »
0

The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family? Disappointed! Call it at least Builder or Restorer or some job who fits the theme not a guy who kinda does the opposite.
Butcher is a verb as well. A Butcher butchers.

I think getting an etremely well paid butcher to turn copper into province or something will probably usually not be the way to go, I think most of the time, you'll want to pay 0-3, maybe 4. It's pretty cool that you can get coins for remodeling curse->copper or estate->hamlet.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2013, 12:42:27 pm »
0

Speaking of respect, there seems to be some error in the forum stats.  The bars are not proportional for the 10 Most "Respected".  Or rather, they appear to be calibrated relative to the tenth most respected user.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2013, 12:48:07 pm »
0

Speaking of respect, there seems to be some error in the forum stats.  The bars are not proportional for the 10 Most "Respected".  Or rather, they appear to be calibrated relative to the tenth most respected user.

They look proportional to me. ≈4000 is about half of ≈2000.

EDIT: Nevermind, I was looking at the wrong graph. I think the Most Respected is the ratio of respect to post count, or something like that.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 12:51:47 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2013, 01:04:20 pm »
0

Looks like I'm going to take my butcher to the kings court to take care of some rats. Rats turned to gold.
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DrFlux

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #106 on: June 06, 2013, 01:06:31 pm »
0

I agree that this is a weak copper trasher, but on boards that there are no good $2s, it is better than remodel, because copper->estate is just TERRIBLE. If there's an engine piece at $3, the difference is even bigger.

I guess in retrospect though, you won't USUALLY want to save coins, so depending on having an extra coin probably doesn't make sense. So yeah, you are mostly right. I still super like the card though, and I think the fact that its never a dead card makes it well worth the upgrade to 5. I love remodel, but hate when I get hands like copper,copper,silver,silver,remodel.





Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.

That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.

But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.

I disagree! I think Butcher will be about as good of a Copper trasher as Remodel, which is to say: very bad. If you're using it to get $3 cost cards, you're giving up a huge opportunity cost of using the coin tokens on other things, such as buying $5 or $6 cards that are going to likely help you much more than turning a Copper into a $3 card.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #107 on: June 06, 2013, 01:10:05 pm »
0

Am I the only one who likes the art on Butcher and Baker? It's kind of funky.

This card look very powerful to me. Early remodels are frequently estate->silver or $3 engine, or $4 card->$5 card, so on some boards it's not going to hard to save up coin tokens with this without even trying.
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CPFB

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #108 on: June 06, 2013, 01:10:38 pm »
0

It will be interesting to see what the rules are concerning possession and coin tokens. I would not be surprised if DXV rules that the possessing player cannot play and of the possessed player's coin tokens.

That would mean that playing Butcher when possessing someone yields the possessed player 2 coin tokens. I guess you might do this to drain provinces or a third pile at the end of the game.

Just thinking out loud.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2013, 01:12:03 pm »
+2

I would be very surprised about that.
You make the decsions for your opponents. There's no reason why you can't make him use coin tokens.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2013, 01:17:04 pm »
0

You can use your opponent's Island, Masquerade, Native Village, or Ambassador.  Why on Earth would he make a special rule regarding coin tokens?
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Schlippy

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2013, 01:17:53 pm »
0

Slager!

Find edge cases where UpdateRemodel is better.
You want to Remodel more than one Curse with Pawn on the board and there is no other way to gain Coin Tokens. You want to remodel more than one Gold into Provinces and the three other players left you only one Butcher. You want to remodel Silvers on a Duke board but you don't want to spend too many 5s on Butchers (if any).

Basically in every game where you want to remodel more than one card into a card costing 2 more than it (or more than two cards if the card costs 1 more than it), without buying more than a single Remodel/Butcher, Remodel is the better choice unless there is another way to gain Coin Tokens.
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CPFB

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2013, 01:20:24 pm »
0

Maybe you guys are right about that, but he might add in a rule that says that all spent coin tokens are set aside and return to the possessed player at the end of the turn (similar to trashed cards).
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gman314

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2013, 01:21:12 pm »
0

Slager!

Find edge cases where UpdateRemodel is better.
You want to Remodel more than one Curse with Pawn on the board and there is no other way to gain Coin Tokens. You want to remodel more than one Gold into Provinces and the three other players left you only one Butcher. You want to remodel Silvers on a Duke board but you don't want to spend too many 5s on Butchers (if any).

Basically in every game where you want to remodel more than one card into a card costing 2 more than it (or more than two cards if the card costs 1 more than it), without buying more than a single Remodel/Butcher, Remodel is the better choice unless there is another way to gain Coin Tokens.

I'm not sure what you mean. Butcher gives you 2 coins every time you play it, so you can always get the same benefit as Remodel.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2013, 01:23:08 pm »
0

I would be very surprised about that.
You make the decsions for your opponents. There's no reason why you can't make him use coin tokens.

Absolutely. Pretty much the only way I can think of to word the coin token rules to not allow a Possessed player to use them would be to specifically mention Possession in the rules, which just wouldn't happen.
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Qvist

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2013, 01:24:02 pm »
0

The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family? Disappointed! Call it at least Builder or Restorer or some job who fits the theme not a guy who kinda does the opposite.
Butcher is a verb as well. A Butcher butchers.

I think getting an etremely well paid butcher to turn copper into province or something will probably usually not be the way to go, I think most of the time, you'll want to pay 0-3, maybe 4. It's pretty cool that you can get coins for remodeling curse->copper or estate->hamlet.

Alright. Thanks, I didn't know that and didn't read all comments before, still the theme doesn't fit with other cards from the remodel family. It's kind even the opposite.

WheresMyElephant

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #116 on: June 06, 2013, 01:27:28 pm »
0

I would be very surprised about that.
You make the decsions for your opponents. There's no reason why you can't make him use coin tokens.
Yeah this seems extremely clear cut. 

And as my earlier post said (well, I kind of waffled I guess) it's not THAT onerous because you can always spend your Coins before I get to them.  Maybe one or two go to waste this way but if you're smart I should never get my hands on your tokens unless it's a calculated risk. It's unpleasant but man if Donald didn't warp the Possession rules to eliminate the Ambassador interaction then he sure won't do it for something as small as this.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 01:28:38 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #117 on: June 06, 2013, 01:33:03 pm »
0

Slager!

Find edge cases where UpdateRemodel is better.
You want to Remodel more than one Curse with Pawn on the board and there is no other way to gain Coin Tokens. You want to remodel more than one Gold into Provinces and the three other players left you only one Butcher. You want to remodel Silvers on a Duke board but you don't want to spend too many 5s on Butchers (if any).

Basically in every game where you want to remodel more than one card into a card costing 2 more than it (or more than two cards if the card costs 1 more than it), without buying more than a single Remodel/Butcher, Remodel is the better choice unless there is another way to gain Coin Tokens.

I'm not sure what you mean. Butcher gives you 2 coins every time you play it, so you can always get the same benefit as Remodel.

I think the only edge cases would have to include its cost ($5 vs. $4) in trash-for-benefit- or remodel-type scenarios.  That is, trashing the Butcher vs. trashing the Remodel. 
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #118 on: June 06, 2013, 01:34:38 pm »
+1

I would be very surprised about that.
You make the decsions for your opponents. There's no reason why you can't make him use coin tokens.
Yeah this seems extremely clear cut. 

And as my earlier post said (well, I kind of waffled I guess) it's not THAT onerous because you can always spend your Coins before I get to them.  Maybe one or two go to waste this way but if you're smart I should never get my hands on your tokens unless it's a calculated risk. It's unpleasant but man if Donald didn't warp the Possession rules to eliminate the Ambassador interaction then he sure won't do it for something as small as this.

I am quite sure Donald X confirmed that you can cash coin tokens when you possess another player.

And in my opinion, that is totally fine. You have to be careful and need to keep track of your opponent's deck, and you should not save the coin tokens when the Possession has to come.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 01:37:14 pm by Mr Anderson »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #119 on: June 06, 2013, 01:37:41 pm »
+1

The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family? Disappointed! Call it at least Builder or Restorer or some job who fits the theme not a guy who kinda does the opposite.
Butcher is a verb as well. A Butcher butchers.

I think getting an etremely well paid butcher to turn copper into province or something will probably usually not be the way to go, I think most of the time, you'll want to pay 0-3, maybe 4. It's pretty cool that you can get coins for remodeling curse->copper or estate->hamlet.

Alright. Thanks, I didn't know that and didn't read all comments before, still the theme doesn't fit with other cards from the remodel family. It's kind even the opposite.

A butcher takes something of little value (the life of a nonhuman animal) and creates something of greater value (meat) which is kept for herself or sold to others in exchange for money that she can then spend on what she pleases.

Of course, I don't condone this value system.
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clb

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #120 on: June 06, 2013, 01:59:11 pm »
0

It looks like these coin-gainers are going to like Poor House. Actually, I said that backwards - PH like coins, since they are not in your hand, they don't count agaist you.
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jbrecken

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #121 on: June 06, 2013, 02:38:42 pm »
+6

As noted above, Butcher is a verb.

It could also be an adjective, as in "Tired of being teased by the guys at the slaughterhouse about his long blond curls, he shaved his head.  Now he's a butcher butcher."
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #122 on: June 06, 2013, 02:42:11 pm »
0

It looks like these coin-gainers are going to like Poor House. Actually, I said that backwards - PH like coins, since they are not in your hand, they don't count agaist you.
I guess, but are the coin tokens really any stronger than any other virtual money here, like Peddler for instance? I guess it's pretty nice that owning any coin tokens makes any PH turn a guaranteed $5, given that this is a considerable step up from the usual guaranteed $4.
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Axxle

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #123 on: June 06, 2013, 02:59:46 pm »
+1

My prediction I posted on BGG:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12505363#12505363

Quote from: michaeljb
Quote from: ColtsFan76
Butcher and baker.  We are getting a candlestick maker, right?

That will be the one that lets you overpay to buy it, turning each overpaid coin into a coin token.
I'm hoping candlestick maker has interesting interactions with jack of all trades.
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Schlippy

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #124 on: June 06, 2013, 03:02:59 pm »
0

I'm not sure what you mean. Butcher gives you 2 coins every time you play it, so you can always get the same benefit as Remodel.
Yeah, for some reason I thought you only get the 2 coin tokens on buy. :/
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