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Author Topic: Preview #4: Butcher  (Read 52348 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #75 on: June 06, 2013, 11:32:21 am »
0

Lastfootnote, this is the first I've seen of the BA, BU, CM, and DO.  Where did those come from?

Onigame's set generator. Check out the first post of that linked thread.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #76 on: June 06, 2013, 11:34:22 am »
0

Lastfootnote, this is the first I've seen of the BA, BU, CM, and DO.  Where did those come from?

Onigame's set generator. Check out the first post of that linked thread.

Hmm.  I have no idea how to turn your link into pairs of letters.
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Schneau

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #77 on: June 06, 2013, 11:53:41 am »
+5

Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.

That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #78 on: June 06, 2013, 11:57:36 am »
0

Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.

That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.

But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #79 on: June 06, 2013, 11:58:09 am »
0

Butcher it for coins.

I'm pleased that we've decided that Butcher is to be considered a verb, like Remodel and Expand and so on.
Also the meme thread is about to get inundated with "I got so Baked I bought a T1 Goons" etc.

Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.

That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.
Nor does Mine cost a Coin token for this service.  I mean yeah Butcher provided that token itself, but that doesn't mean you have to squander it.
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Schneau

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #80 on: June 06, 2013, 11:58:44 am »
+1

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the coin tokens you get from Butcher can be used to buy things as well. You don't have to just save them up to use with Butcher, but can instead use them to smooth out buys and get big hands for Provinces, etc. For example:

Right. You Butcher Province->Province, which results in your deck being the same, the Province pile being one less, and you having an extra $2 in coins. Next time, you can Butcher $4->Province. Or, you can drain another Province, and the third Butcher play upgrades a $2 (!) to an Province.

This is like a Salvager with a Remodel effect that you can save up. That's massive for endgame acceleration.

I'm guessing you'll usually just want to spend the coin tokens, instead of saving them up to remodel an Estate into a Province. By the time you have 6 coin tokens, you should be able to buy a Province outright, and the game will probably be near over. This kind of saving will probably be a bad idea.
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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2013, 12:03:27 pm »
+3

Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.

That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.

But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.

I disagree! I think Butcher will be about as good of a Copper trasher as Remodel, which is to say: very bad. If you're using it to get $3 cost cards, you're giving up a huge opportunity cost of using the coin tokens on other things, such as buying $5 or $6 cards that are going to likely help you much more than turning a Copper into a $3 card.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #82 on: June 06, 2013, 12:04:15 pm »
+1

Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.

That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.

But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.

If you're trashing a Copper with Butcher, you've basically got "+$1, +1 Buy" because you're gaining two coin tokens but losing $1 in hand. Except that the buy is mandatory and you can only use your precious coin tokens on it, rather than being able to spend your other coins.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing this as a Copper trasher.
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Robz888

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2013, 12:04:34 pm »
+23

I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2013, 12:08:12 pm »
+11

I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)

Pretty sure this one is obvious.  Scout to draw estates.  Butcher to turn estates into more Scouts.  Win.
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achmed_sender

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #85 on: June 06, 2013, 12:11:18 pm »
+3

I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)

Pretty sure this one is obvious.  Scout to draw estates.  Butcher to turn estates into more Scouts.  Win.

But a big problem will be opportunity cost. Instead of butcher, you just could have bought a scout, which is absolutely powerful...
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #86 on: June 06, 2013, 12:12:22 pm »
0

Get an early Province. Butcher it for coins. You're draining the Province pile and simultaneously building up coins for a massive remodel of (less than $5)->Province.  Butcher provides a really interesting form of endgame acceleration.

You get two coin tokens when you play the butcher but you do not get coin tokens per 1$ the trashed card costs, you just remodel the card and add the amount of coin tokens you pay to the maximum cost.

Right. You Butcher Province->Province, which results in your deck being the same, the Province pile being one less, and you having an extra $2 in coins. Next time, you can Butcher $4->Province. Or, you can drain another Province, and the third Butcher play upgrades a $2 (!) to an Province.

This is like a Salvager with a Remodel effect that you can save up. That's massive for endgame acceleration.

Ah, I see I misunderstood your post. That is right.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2013, 12:12:30 pm »
+2

I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)

Pretty sure this one is obvious.  Scout to draw estates.  Butcher to turn estates into more Scouts.  Win.

But a big problem will be opportunity cost. Instead of butcher, you just could have bought a scout, which is absolutely powerful...

Sure, but you can still buy a Scout after you gain one from Butcher.  So you should win the Scout split getting two a turn.
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PitzerMike

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #88 on: June 06, 2013, 12:17:55 pm »
0

"Terminal Silver that you can save for later" sounds like a solid 4$ card already.
With the added Remodel effect it looks like a pretty strong 5$ card.
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2013, 12:19:43 pm »
0

I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)

You still have a long way to go before you catch up to me, my young padawan.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2013, 12:21:16 pm »
0

Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.

That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.

But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.

I disagree! I think Butcher will be about as good of a Copper trasher as Remodel, which is to say: very bad. If you're using it to get $3 cost cards, you're giving up a huge opportunity cost of using the coin tokens on other things, such as buying $5 or $6 cards that are going to likely help you much more than turning a Copper into a $3 card.

I agree for the most part. I rarely see myself trashing coppers into $3 cost cards. Instead, I see myself saving the coin tokens for better things. I mean, I am sure there will be a few times where getting that extra engine piece is nice, especially on a board laking +Buy, but overall, using this to trash coppers sounds lame.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2013, 12:21:33 pm »
+5

You still have a long way to go before you catch up to me, my young padawan.

There are at least two reasons that I wish I could downvote this post.
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jonts26

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2013, 12:23:25 pm »
+5

I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)

You still have a long way to go before you catch up to me, my young padawan.

You've got him by about 800 upvotes. That what? 6 scout jokes? Throw in some lighthearted insults towards goko an you're toast.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2013, 12:24:43 pm »
0

Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.

That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.

But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.

I disagree! I think Butcher will be about as good of a Copper trasher as Remodel, which is to say: very bad. If you're using it to get $3 cost cards, you're giving up a huge opportunity cost of using the coin tokens on other things, such as buying $5 or $6 cards that are going to likely help you much more than turning a Copper into a $3 card.

I agree for the most part. I rarely see myself trashing coppers into $3 cost cards. Instead, I see myself saving the coin tokens for better things. I mean, I am sure there will be a few times where getting that extra engine piece is nice, especially on a board laking +Buy, but overall, using this to trash coppers sounds lame.

Except for, of course, Butchering Coppers into Estates so that you can draw more Estates with Scout, to Butcher into more Scouts.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2013, 12:26:06 pm »
+2

Butchering Curse into Copper might be a nice option to consider.

Now we see what happens when a Swindler goes honest and uses his powers for good. He becomes a, uh, a butcher. One brave man fighting to shield his customers from mislabeled horse meat.

Although I think Swindler wins if they try to go head to head. Of course 2 tokens beats Swindlers' +$2, but it's too much like trying to trash Curses as they come in, and of course there's the whole Butcher-into-Duchy thing. A sad commentary on the state of our food industry really.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 12:31:06 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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sudgy

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2013, 12:29:36 pm »
0

I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)

Pretty sure this one is obvious.  Scout to draw estates.  Butcher to turn estates into more Scouts.  Win.

But then you have no estates to draw with scout...  COPPERS INTO ESTATES!
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Qvist

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2013, 12:31:49 pm »
0

Alright, next card and another "better than X" card, this time Remodel.

The mechanic seems interesting. Like some already pointed out, this is a great endgame accelerator and probably its main use beside the usual remodeling stuff. But remodeling Estates into Silvers and saving some coins for buying when you need them or expanding cards seems also pretty good. We have to wait and see how many other Coin token generators will be there or if there is even other use for them, but this seems strong already as-is. Because what's great is that you don't even need to trash and can just use it as a terminal silver.
I mean a card "Choose one: +2$ or remodel a card" would already be worth $5 for me and Butcher is even more flexible. The competition is tough in the $5 price range. Not many cards you could compare it to. It's clearly better than Graverobber and Mine, but clearly not stronger than all the strong attacks or other power $5s, maybe about slightly above average.

The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family? Disappointed! Call it at least Builder or Restorer or some job who fits the theme not a guy who kinda does the opposite.

Witherweaver

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2013, 12:33:10 pm »
0

I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)

Pretty sure this one is obvious.  Scout to draw estates.  Butcher to turn estates into more Scouts.  Win.

But then you have no estates to draw with scout...  COPPERS INTO ESTATES!

I beat you to it, two posts up~!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2013, 12:35:18 pm »
0

I still think it is a decent Copper trasher, better than Remodel and tfbs like Salvager and Apprentice. But OK, I give.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #4: Butcher
« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2013, 12:36:51 pm »
+1

I still think it is a decent Copper trasher, better than Remodel and tfbs like Salvager and Apprentice. But OK, I give.

Sure, but those cards are all awful at trashing Copper.  I suppose Salvager at least gives a +buy.
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