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Author Topic: The Expert's Expansion?  (Read 5786 times)

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werothegreat

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The Expert's Expansion?
« on: June 05, 2013, 02:01:07 pm »
+3

Over the expansions, we've been seeing Dominion cards get more and more complicated, and with that complexity, the cards also become more difficult to use correctly.  In Dark Ages, the complexity jump was combinations - we saw cards, like Fortress and Rats, that are really useless unless combined with other cards that make use of them.  But this still doesn't require all that much thought to process - instead of relying on the power of single cards on their own, you now have to factor in their need to rely on other cards.  The experts consider reshuffles and opportunity costs, but beginner and intermediate players can still tag along as long as they can figure out which cards go well with which others. 

I see this changing for Guilds.  All of the themes introduced give choices that make the analysis-paralysis from Pawn scream in terror.  When do I want to use my Coin tokens?  How many should I use?  Should I save them for another purchase?  Which card should I name?  What's still in my deck?  How much should I overpay?  Previously, you could just throw cards into your deck and play them as they came into your hand, making a few decisions on those cards that have them.  This just seems like a step above all of that.

This is not going to be an expansion you show to newbs.
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dondon151

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 02:03:55 pm »
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I thought Dark Ages was already the expert's expansion. The mechanics introduced here in Guilds seem to me simple in comparison.
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shMerker

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 02:05:19 pm »
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At least so far it doesn't look like "Wait, where did my deck go?" is going to be a thing that happens in Guilds.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 02:05:48 pm »
+3

I thought Dark Ages was already the expert's expansion. The mechanics introduced here in Guilds seem to me simple in comparison.

I don't mean the cards themselves, but the decisions that the mechanics are having you make.

You're having to make decisions beyond what's on the cards, and beyond what's in your deck.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 02:10:58 pm »
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I really like that coin tokens appear to provide interesting choices to experts without being intimidating to newbies.  It might be a tad confusing to a brand new player who still expects treasure to leave her deck when spent, but for someone who casually plays every now and then, coin tokens should be intriguing and simple to grasp.
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dondon151

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 02:14:26 pm »
+1

I don't mean the cards themselves, but the decisions that the mechanics are having you make.

You're having to make decisions beyond what's on the cards, and beyond what's in your deck.

This is definitely a matter of opinion, but I'm afraid that I don't see the complexity. Most of your coin-spending decisions are going to be whether to go from $4 to $5 or $8 to $9 with 2 buys or whatever. Newbie players don't know how to build a deck, but often they know what they want. The decision of whether to spend coins is simpler in comparison to what you want to do with Pawn, Steward, etc. because during the buy phase, you have more complete information than during the action phase.

As for naming cards to skip/trash, 95% of the time it's going to be either Copper or Estate, and it doesn't take an expert to know that drawing Estates instead of just about anything else is a bad thing.
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brokoli

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 02:24:00 pm »
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The mechanic introduced in DA is maybe complicated but the choices are relatively easy compared to Guilds (in facts, I don't really know but I guess).
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Davio

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 02:27:04 pm »
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Isn't it just simply this: Guilds adds more choices, especially the coin tokens and overpaying, and the more decisions you have, the more opportunity to affect your chances of winning, right?
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Nic

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2013, 06:29:03 pm »
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The consensus in the preview threads didn't seem to be about differentiating between newbies and veterans, but rather between those who can count cards and those who can't.
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Wingnut

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2013, 02:33:55 pm »
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The consensus in the preview threads didn't seem to be about differentiating between newbies and veterans, but rather between those who can count cards and those who can't.

While that is true most if not all of the people in the preview threads are veterans. While the card interactions may not be as complicated the presence of coin tokens is certain to cause AP to a ridiculous extent unless the new person just burns the coin tokens immediately. Part of the reason I don't teach new people with Intrigue is the choices on cards and having more options for new people is generally a bad idea. Coins adds more options even if there are other sets that add many more. As for the deck tracking, that will be rewarded with this set, no question.
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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2013, 07:50:34 pm »
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Over the expansions, we've been seeing Dominion cards get more and more complicated, and with that complexity, the cards also become more difficult to use correctly.  In Dark Ages, the complexity jump was combinations - we saw cards, like Fortress and Rats, that are really useless unless combined with other cards that make use of them.  But this still doesn't require all that much thought to process - instead of relying on the power of single cards on their own, you now have to factor in their need to rely on other cards.  The experts consider reshuffles and opportunity costs, but beginner and intermediate players can still tag along as long as they can figure out which cards go well with which others. 

I see this changing for Guilds.  All of the themes introduced give choices that make the analysis-paralysis from Pawn scream in terror.  When do I want to use my Coin tokens?  How many should I use?  Should I save them for another purchase?  Which card should I name?  What's still in my deck?  How much should I overpay?  Previously, you could just throw cards into your deck and play them as they came into your hand, making a few decisions on those cards that have them.  This just seems like a step above all of that.

This is not going to be an expansion you show to newbs.
Ya think
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popsofctown

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2013, 12:34:00 am »
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The consensus in the preview threads didn't seem to be about differentiating between newbies and veterans, but rather between those who can count cards and those who can't.
I upvoted this, but I would like to point out that counting cards has a lot more to do with effort than talent.  Generally most people enjoy the game more if they don't put any effort into counting cards, so that's what they do.  If you were to put 5$ stakes on every game, some people would start counting cards even though it's not the funnest thing for them because it generates some advantage.

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LastFootnote

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2013, 12:39:31 am »
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I'm guessing Guilds will make you into a better Dominion player by getting you into the habit of tracking cards. The Guilds cards make it obvious that counting cards is an advantage, but really it's an advantage in all Dominion games.

Stash quickly trained me to look at my partial draw before reshuffling, and now I do it in every game of Dominion with or without Stash.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2013, 12:55:05 am »
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I'm guessing Guilds will make you into a better Dominion player by getting you into the habit of tracking cards. The Guilds cards make it obvious that counting cards is an advantage, but really it's an advantage in all Dominion games.

Stash quickly trained me to look at my partial draw before reshuffling, and now I do it in every game of Dominion with or without Stash.

I really only do this when I remember to.  I should more often, because I keep having "fuck I should have played that card differently" moments.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2013, 04:46:23 am »
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Coin tokens might degenerate into Province vouchers a lot more than we anticipate.  Maybe not, just throwing that out there.
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Davio

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Re: The Expert's Expansion?
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 02:59:51 am »
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Coin tokens might degenerate into Province vouchers a lot more than we anticipate.  Maybe not, just throwing that out there.
Well, waiting 10 turns to start spending your tokens doesn't seem like a very good strategy. I'm sure you'll want to use some to get a Gold or a critical $5 every now and then.
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