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[Archetype]

Davio, it seems like your problem is really with Smithy, rather than with all the $5 terminal cards that net you 2 additional cards in hand. If it weren't for Smithy, we'd just have a bunch of $5 terminal draw cards, none of which were "strictly" better or worse than the others. Sort of like we have Laboratory, Hunting Party, Stables, etc.

If it helps, I usually think of the Smithy as one of the "$5 terminal +3 Cards with a bonus" cards. Smithy's bonus is just the fact that it's cheaper. As others have pointed out, being $4 instead of $5 is quite significant due partly to how many gainers can gain cards costing up to $4.

Likewise, there are a bunch of +1 Card/+2 Actions cards, each of which has its own bonus. Village's bonus is that it only costs $3.

It reminds of why we have no straight up '+1 Card, +1 Action, +1$' card.

[werothegreat]

Davio, it seems like your problem is really with Smithy, rather than with all the $5 terminal cards that net you 2 additional cards in hand. If it weren't for Smithy, we'd just have a bunch of $5 terminal draw cards, none of which were "strictly" better or worse than the others. Sort of like we have Laboratory, Hunting Party, Stables, etc.

If it helps, I usually think of the Smithy as one of the "$5 terminal +3 Cards with a bonus" cards. Smithy's bonus is just the fact that it's cheaper. As others have pointed out, being $4 instead of $5 is quite significant due partly to how many gainers can gain cards costing up to $4.

Likewise, there are a bunch of +1 Card/+2 Actions cards, each of which has its own bonus. Village's bonus is that it only costs $3.

It reminds of why we have no straight up '+1 Card, +1 Action, +1$' card.

You mean Peddler?  Other than its odd cost, that's what Peddler is.

[jonts26]

Davio, it seems like your problem is really with Smithy, rather than with all the $5 terminal cards that net you 2 additional cards in hand. If it weren't for Smithy, we'd just have a bunch of $5 terminal draw cards, none of which were "strictly" better or worse than the others. Sort of like we have Laboratory, Hunting Party, Stables, etc.

If it helps, I usually think of the Smithy as one of the "$5 terminal +3 Cards with a bonus" cards. Smithy's bonus is just the fact that it's cheaper. As others have pointed out, being $4 instead of $5 is quite significant due partly to how many gainers can gain cards costing up to $4.

Likewise, there are a bunch of +1 Card/+2 Actions cards, each of which has its own bonus. Village's bonus is that it only costs $3.

It reminds of why we have no straight up '+1 Card, +1 Action, +1$' card.

You mean Peddler?  Other than its odd cost, that's what Peddler is.

Even with it's odd cost, that's still what it is.

[LastFootnote]

Davio, it seems like your problem is really with Smithy, rather than with all the $5 terminal cards that net you 2 additional cards in hand. If it weren't for Smithy, we'd just have a bunch of $5 terminal draw cards, none of which were "strictly" better or worse than the others. Sort of like we have Laboratory, Hunting Party, Stables, etc.

If it helps, I usually think of the Smithy as one of the "$5 terminal +3 Cards with a bonus" cards. Smithy's bonus is just the fact that it's cheaper. As others have pointed out, being $4 instead of $5 is quite significant due partly to how many gainers can gain cards costing up to $4.

Likewise, there are a bunch of +1 Card/+2 Actions cards, each of which has its own bonus. Village's bonus is that it only costs $3.

It reminds of why we have no straight up '+1 Card, +1 Action, +1$' card.

You mean Peddler?  Other than its odd cost, that's what Peddler is.

Even with it's odd cost, that's still what it is.

Well, that drives my point home. Cost differences are themselves bonuses/penalties that help differentiate cards, even when they're not in the card's text box (or when they are, like Peddler).

[SCSN]

True story: when I started out playing on iso, I occasionally bought Peddler for $8, thinking "if it's that expensive, it must be really good".

[SirPeebles]

Peddler's cost oddness is a huge deal.  With +buy on the board, you can often pick up several per turn.  Moreover, I often buy Peddlers specifically with Trash for Benefit in mind, or as a buffer against Swindler.  In those cases, the cantrip money is just a nice little bonus.

In fact, it's a big enough deal that I didn't originally care for the term "Peddler variant," since that made me think of price experimentation, not cantrip money.

[ipofanes]

A straight $4 Peddler would be too strong, I see Peddler's discount as a penalty similar to the no-copper rule for Grand Market.

[Drab Emordnilap]

A straight $4 Peddler would be too strong,

I don't think that's true. I think the real issue is that it's too bland.

[werothegreat]

A straight $4 Peddler would be too strong, I see Peddler's discount as a penalty similar to the no-copper rule for Grand Market.

Compare it to Oasis and Junk Dealer.  Oasis has the penalty of having to discard, and so costs $3.  Junk Dealer has the added benefit of allowing you to trash, and so costs $5.  Straight up Peddler has to cost $4.

[jonts26]

A straight $4 Peddler would be too strong, I see Peddler's discount as a penalty similar to the no-copper rule for Grand Market.

Compare it to Oasis and Junk Dealer.  Oasis has the penalty of having to discard, and so costs $3.  Junk Dealer has the added benefit of allowing you to trash, and so costs $5.  Straight up Peddler has to cost $4.

Junk dealer FORCES you to trash, so it's not strictly superior. A better example is Market. But just because a straight peddler is (usually) better than oasis at $3 and worse than market at $5 doesn't mean it HAS to be balanced at $4. It probably is, but it's possible there is no well balanced cost for a card. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the complexity of dominion is such that a vanilla cost peddler is no longer worth printing. It might have been back with only a couple sets, but it just doesn't add anything to the game at this point that you'd want to sacrifice another more interesting card for.

[Watno]

I think Tournament is usually better than peddler and cost $4.

[WanderingWinder]

A straight $4 Peddler would be too strong, I see Peddler's discount as a penalty similar to the no-copper rule for Grand Market.

Compare it to Oasis and Junk Dealer.  Oasis has the penalty of having to discard, and so costs $3.  Junk Dealer has the added benefit of allowing you to trash, and so costs $5.  Straight up Peddler has to cost $4.

This is a fallacy. Consider the following hypothetical card:
BAD DESIGN
Treasure
Worth $0
When you play this, you may gain up to two Coppers, putting them into your hand.
—
When you gain this, each other player gains a Curse.

This is worse than IGG (well, not *strictly* worse, of course, but most usually), but it's way too good to put at $4. Just because A>B>C and A costs 2 more than C doesn't mean B actually works at the level that's between.

Whether peddler would be too strong for $4... well, I think it would be one of the few strongest 4s, anyway, but 'too strong' is a bit subjective.

[LastFootnote]

I think Tournament is usually better than peddler and cost $4.

This is probably true in a 2-player game. Once there are 3 other people who can each reveal a Province, Tournament becomes "+1 Action" pretty fast.

[WanderingWinder]

Not a lot to say about this card. I expect it's a little better than catacombs, usually. Its advantage is more prevalent earlier on, when you can skip cards you don't want a lot more realistically. Of course, later on those few dead things hurt more. Probably reasonably into engine games you will be naming chapel or doctor, just to pass up that now-dead trasher, but of course, with other strong trashers a la steward, skipping them is not such a big deal. So mostly good in light-trash engines or big money. Though money, you will name estate most of the game if you get this early in a shuffle. I do like that this rewards deck tracking, as actually seems to be what competitively might be called a theme of the set.

Actually, this card somehow reminds me a good bit of wandering minstrel. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find this is a top-3 terminal draw card (though I expect wharf, torturer, margrave all will still be generally better, knocking this to fourth; and of course, witch and ghost ship, but really drawing is not much of their purpose).

To continue my theme: How does this affect the opening? It doesn't, at least much. Probably a pretty good opener, can skip estates.

[Watno]

Yeah, the Wandering minstrel comparison came to my mind as well.

[DG]

And putting wandering minstrels and journeymen together will probably be nombo.

[SCSN]

And putting wandering minstrels and journeymen together will probably be nombo.

Not necessarily, as there are often actions in your deck that you don't want to draw (the Chapel and Doctor WW mentioned, but also Ruins, Lookout, Steward, Sea Hag, Watchtower, Library and many others depending on the specific situation). Wandering Minstrel can help you in finding out what specifically to name, besides of course providing the +action to play the cards that you do want to draw.

[popsofctown]

@WW: I think it seems like an understatement to say this is "probably a good opener".  This seems to be second to trading post as a non-attacking 5$ opener.  If you skip your 2$ purchase, then you've purchased a 5$ terminal gold, and the terminal part doesn't hurt at all yet.  But it's better than opening gold because you cycle at least 3 cards, usually 4, often 5.  It's a heck of a lot like opening Embassy.. almost exactly like opening Embassy with no penalty, you get almost as much cycling, and in both cases you have a virtually guaranteed 5$ hand.  You can't ask for much more than that, except for Trading Post's trashing and some attack cards that can get you 5$ and also screw up your opponent's turn.
I think it presses 5/2 advantage more than Wharf, even.  Wharf cycles merely as hard as this card, but then Wharf has this nasty habit of missing the reshuffle it just cycled to accelerate, so that does you less good.  The Silver/Silver head start on treasures isn't as far behind as with Journeyman.  This cycles just as hard as Wharf but doesn't miss the reshuffle, and it does a similarly strong job of improving your buying power.

What's more is that against a Wharf 5/2 you can try to do cute stuff with your 3/4 to catch up, and then transition into Wharf+cute stuff and win.  You might buy a highly competitive trasher or a 3-4$ attack card or a Fishing Village.  It's a lot harder to do that with Journeyman because trashing Estates is less powerful, and any action cards you buy will be uniquely named, so when you card count and get to the bottom of a deck with Fishing Village/Silver/Journeyman and play Journeyman you are not doing as well as the 5/2 opponent with Journeyman/Journeyman/Copper.

[dudeabides]

True story: when I started out playing on iso, I occasionally bought Peddler for $8, thinking "if it's that expensive, it must be really good".

Hahaha.  Funny stuff.  You were suffering from the "you get what you pay for" syndrome.  Price... what a great marketing tool.

[WanderingWinder]

@WW: I think it seems like an understatement to say this is "probably a good opener".

In a vacuum, I agree with you. I guess I left it there because it doesn't change the structure of openings like the previous two (5/3 and 6/2 possible; turn 1 self-triggered reshuffle possible). But I don't really disagree with you on the other stuff, except that I expect wharf to be a stronger enough card overall that you're going to want to open it over this anyway. Well, maybe I am wrong there, too.

[cactus]

It is interesting how we've had three rather different art styles so far.  We have an anime girl who seems to be deathly afraid of bread, a scheming quack caught in a Dutch angle, and a couple statues from MYST.

"Interesting", yes. You've described these perfectly.

Of course comparing the art on Journeyman to the art of the 20year old MYST is harsh.... MYST was cutting edge in its day.... Journeyman looks like a contender for bottom three or bottom five of all the dominion card images. Strange because the art has been mostly so much better in recent expansions.

[markusin]

I'm curious to know how well this card works in a total draw deck. More specifically, if it's ability can make up for its 5$ cost in such a deck even though it doesn't slow down your opponent like Torturer or Rabble.

I think terminal draw BM got another boost.

[juffowup]

In a big money type deck where I expect to buy two journeymans and money, on a 5-2 should I open Journeyman/estate?  [Gaining a free VP off the fact that I'll probably be naming estate every time I journeyman?]  If not, would the presence of Loan make this worthwhile?

[ftl]

No, don't open Estate. You won't draw that estate with Journeyman... but you're more likely to draw it in your regular 5-card hand!

[sudgy]

In a big money type deck where I expect to buy two journeymans and money, on a 5-2 should I open Journeyman/estate?  [Gaining a free VP off the fact that I'll probably be naming estate every time I journeyman?]  If not, would the presence of Loan make this worthwhile?

But that Estate might be in your hand at some points too.