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Author Topic: roguelike games  (Read 125453 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1000 on: October 08, 2015, 02:02:58 pm »
+1

Oh, I don't care at all that it's complicated.  I do prefer that complicated stuff be documented well, but you're right, roguelikes ought to be complicated. 

I care that it's bad design.  "Boring" is a pretty good word.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1001 on: October 08, 2015, 04:13:48 pm »
+1

Anyone know the button to autotravel as fast as your skeletons?
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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1002 on: October 08, 2015, 05:08:57 pm »
+2

Anyone know the button to autotravel as fast as your skeletons?

ctrl-e
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sitnaltax

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1003 on: October 08, 2015, 08:52:20 pm »
+2

I am annoyed by how GDR is so incongruent with the way the rest of the game is designed.  Almost no offensive moves have a guaranteed chance of doing a minimum decent amount of damage, no amount of EV guarantees a dodge, a scroll of teleport isn't guaranteed to send you anywhere nice, etc, but GDR lets you have a sure-thing.  It contributes between the bumpy transition between trying to win a beserker and trying to win a caster a whole lot because robes have virtually no GDR.

I am really butthurt that I got two shotted from half health straight through phase shift + ozcubu's armor + condensation shield because I was playing the game a way that ice dragon armor's GDR had kinda conditioned me to before I started playing casters as often.  I was wearing a robe so none of the massive AC affected GDR. 

I am definitely not saying "give casters GDR too so everyone can coast easy", I'm saying that I think the high GDR on armor and how that's a huge part of why physical characters can tab past the game is against the spirit of crawl or even roguelikes in general and it ought to get nerfed so the game is harder on physical dudes.


I was gonna whine on the official forums but I realized no one is going to listen either way therefore this is way better.

Sorry, the devs are too busy adding weak, overcosted spells with lots of downsides and removing every monster that might accidentally give you some XP without killing you to look into balancing melee.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1004 on: October 14, 2015, 01:38:53 pm »
+3

Guys I have put in a lot of practice at crawl.

And not gotten any better.
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1005 on: October 14, 2015, 02:43:25 pm »
+3

Guys I have put in a lot of practice at crawl.

And not gotten any better.

Once I got a Rune. I'm pretty sure it was an anomaly.
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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1006 on: October 14, 2015, 02:59:08 pm »
+1

My best is all runes.

My second best is one rune.

My third best is the same as my 1527th best.

Let's talk about my best again.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1007 on: October 14, 2015, 03:10:02 pm »
+1

My best is all runes.

My second best is one rune.

My third best is the same as my 1527th best.

Let's talk about my best again.

Geez..  The difficulty curve really does need a bit of work, it seems.  The early part of the game is indeed a bit too easy compared to the later parts :/

Makes me wonder how many runes I could have gotten if I kept going with my Deep Elf.
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1008 on: October 14, 2015, 03:22:06 pm »
+1

While we're talking Crawl though. I'm currently playing a Demigod Conjurer and I've found a lot of books. Wondering what people are recommending I go for in terms of spells. I usually die before I get this sort of spell selection. I have access to the following books:
Book of Conjurations: Magic Dart, Searing Ray, Dazzling Spray, Fulminant Prism, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Iskenderun's Battlesphere
Book of the Dragon:  Flight, Cause Fear, Bolt of Fire, Dragon Form, Dragon's Call
Book of Burglary: Swiftness, Passwall, Passage of Golubria, Lee's Rapid Deconstruction, Invisibility, Darkness
Book of Fire: Ignite Poison, Fireball, Bolt of Fire, Delayed Fireball, Ring of Flames
Book of Power: Fulminant Prism, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Venom Bolt, Bolt of Magma, Iron Shot, Orb of Destruction, Spellforged Servitor
Book of Dreams: Ensorcelled Hibernation, Flight, Phase Shift, Shadow Creatures, Mass Confusion, Darkness

My current spells memorized are:
Magic Dart, Searing Ray, Fireball, Dazzling Spray, Iskenderun's Battlesphere, Delayed Fireball.

My current goal is to get Delayed Fireball castable, but it's at about 82% right now. I have 8 free spell slots.

My current (abbreviated) dump is as such:
Code: [Select]
MrSnow the Destroyer (Demigod Conjurer)            Turns: 17888, Time: 03:33:08

Health: 81/81      AC:  9    Str: 14    XL:     12   Next: 0%
Magic:  26/30      EV: 18    Int: 25    God:   
Gold:   842        SH:  7    Dex: 18    Spells: 6 memorised, 8 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     B - +3 blowgun
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     V - +2 robe {rN+}
rNeg   + . .     SustAb   +     N - +1 buckler
rPois  .         Gourm    .     a - +2 helmet
rElec  .         Spirit   .     H - +1 cloak
rCorr  .         Warding  .     (no gloves)
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (no boots)
MR     +....                    (no amulet)
Stlth  +++.......               v - ring of wizardry
                                F - +3 ring of strength

@: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: see invisible, no device heal 1, sustain abilities
a: no special abilities


You are on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 11 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer and Volcano.

You have collected 842 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - a +0 hunting sling
 B - a +3 blowgun (weapon)
Missiles
 p - 30 poisoned needles (quivered)
 w - 102 sling bullets
 M - a throwing net
Armour
 a - a +2 helmet (worn)
 j - a helmet
 o - a +1 ring mail of fire resistance
 H - a +1 cloak (worn)
 N - a +1 buckler (worn)
 V - a +2 robe of positive energy (worn)
Rods
 O - a +0 rod of destruction (12/12)
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
Jewellery
 v - a ring of wizardry (right hand)
 x - an uncursed ring of ice
 F - a +3 ring of strength (left hand)
Magical devices
 l - a wand of digging (2)
 s - a wand of teleportation
 J - a wand of polymorph (8)
 U - a wand of draining
 Y - a wand of fire (4)
Scrolls
 c - a scroll of blinking
 e - a scroll of recharging
 h - 2 scrolls of fog
 i - a scroll labeled JUYCLUN SHOL
 k - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 m - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 t - a scroll of identify
 W - a scroll of fear
 Z - a scroll of magic mapping
Potions
 q - 4 potions of heal wounds
 u - 2 potions of magic
 A - 6 potions of curing
 C - 2 dark potions
 D - 2 potions of berserk rage
 E - 2 silvery potions
 G - a white potion
 P - a yellow potion
 R - a bubbling coppery potion
 T - 2 metallic puce potions
...
Comestibles
 b - a bread ration
 f - 6 meat rations


   Skills:
 - Level 3.0 Throwing
 * Level 7.8 Dodging
 - Level 3.0 Stealth
 - Level 5.0 Shields
 + Level 7.8 Spellcasting
 + Level 10.9 Conjurations
 - Level 3.6 Charms
 * Level 6.9 Fire Magic
 - Level 3.1 Evocations


You have 8 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         1%          1    None
b - Searing Ray           Conj           ######       1%          2    None
c - Fireball              Conj/Fire      ######....   2%          5    #####..
d - Dazzling Spray        Conj/Hex       #####...     1%          3    None
e - Iskenderun's Battles  Conj/Chrm      #####...     4%          5    #####..
f - Delayed Fireball      Conj/Fire      N/A          77%         7    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (8/15)               Lair (3/8) D:8         
Temple: D:4-7        Swamp: Lair:3-6    Shoals: Lair:3-6     Snake: Lair:3-6
Spider: Lair:3-6


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

Your attributes are resistant to harm.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
Potions and wands are less effective at restoring your health.

Any recommendations from the more experienced players would be appreciated! I'm not sure what is good to spend my spell slots on here. More damage? Escape-y things? Summons?
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1009 on: October 14, 2015, 03:42:59 pm »
+1

I think you probably want to focus pretty heavily on fire and not branch out until you've run out of cool fire stuff to cast.  You preferably want to cast your bread and butter aoe spell with like 95% success rate, -without- using ring of wizardry, since it's really good to be able to use both ring fingers for more useful effects.

You might want to learn Bolt of Magma to deal with fire resistant stuff ok.  Ring of flames is really awesome and stuff.

Disclaimer, I am bad at crawl.
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1010 on: October 14, 2015, 03:47:43 pm »
+1

My best is all runes.

My second best is one rune.

My third best is the same as my 1527th best.

Let's talk about my best again.

Geez..  The difficulty curve really does need a bit of work, it seems.  The early part of the game is indeed a bit too easy compared to the later parts :/

Makes me wonder how many runes I could have gotten if I kept going with my Deep Elf.

I would disagree with this. Most skilled players of the game agree that the early game is by far the most difficult...it's the time when your character is still very vulnerable and without many options. One bad roll from an adder and it could all be over, with not much else you could have done. Later on you have so many spells and consumables and god abilities that you really shouldn't die. Some would say that any character that you can get to Lair should be winnable, and there are certainly impressive win streaks to back that up.

Of course subjectively you see and practice the early game far more often than the later game, so I can understand your mindset. And it's not like I personally haven't bit it in the late game my fair share of times.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1011 on: October 14, 2015, 03:57:14 pm »
+1

Oh, no, I totally accidentally wrote the opposite word of what I meant.  The early part of the game is too HARD compared to the late parts.

I'll leave it incorrect, for reference.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 04:08:09 pm by popsofctown »
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1012 on: October 14, 2015, 04:01:58 pm »
+1

While we're talking Crawl though. I'm currently playing a Demigod Conjurer and I've found a lot of books. Wondering what people are recommending I go for in terms of spells. I usually die before I get this sort of spell selection. I have access to the following books:
Book of Conjurations: Magic Dart, Searing Ray, Dazzling Spray, Fulminant Prism, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Iskenderun's Battlesphere
Book of the Dragon:  Flight, Cause Fear, Bolt of Fire, Dragon Form, Dragon's Call
Book of Burglary: Swiftness, Passwall, Passage of Golubria, Lee's Rapid Deconstruction, Invisibility, Darkness
Book of Fire: Ignite Poison, Fireball, Bolt of Fire, Delayed Fireball, Ring of Flames
Book of Power: Fulminant Prism, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Venom Bolt, Bolt of Magma, Iron Shot, Orb of Destruction, Spellforged Servitor
Book of Dreams: Ensorcelled Hibernation, Flight, Phase Shift, Shadow Creatures, Mass Confusion, Darkness

My current spells memorized are:
Magic Dart, Searing Ray, Fireball, Dazzling Spray, Iskenderun's Battlesphere, Delayed Fireball.

My current goal is to get Delayed Fireball castable, but it's at about 82% right now. I have 8 free spell slots.

My current (abbreviated) dump is as such:
Code: [Select]
MrSnow the Destroyer (Demigod Conjurer)            Turns: 17888, Time: 03:33:08

Health: 81/81      AC:  9    Str: 14    XL:     12   Next: 0%
Magic:  26/30      EV: 18    Int: 25    God:   
Gold:   842        SH:  7    Dex: 18    Spells: 6 memorised, 8 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     B - +3 blowgun
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     V - +2 robe {rN+}
rNeg   + . .     SustAb   +     N - +1 buckler
rPois  .         Gourm    .     a - +2 helmet
rElec  .         Spirit   .     H - +1 cloak
rCorr  .         Warding  .     (no gloves)
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (no boots)
MR     +....                    (no amulet)
Stlth  +++.......               v - ring of wizardry
                                F - +3 ring of strength

@: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: see invisible, no device heal 1, sustain abilities
a: no special abilities


You are on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 11 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer and Volcano.

You have collected 842 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - a +0 hunting sling
 B - a +3 blowgun (weapon)
Missiles
 p - 30 poisoned needles (quivered)
 w - 102 sling bullets
 M - a throwing net
Armour
 a - a +2 helmet (worn)
 j - a helmet
 o - a +1 ring mail of fire resistance
 H - a +1 cloak (worn)
 N - a +1 buckler (worn)
 V - a +2 robe of positive energy (worn)
Rods
 O - a +0 rod of destruction (12/12)
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
Jewellery
 v - a ring of wizardry (right hand)
 x - an uncursed ring of ice
 F - a +3 ring of strength (left hand)
Magical devices
 l - a wand of digging (2)
 s - a wand of teleportation
 J - a wand of polymorph (8)
 U - a wand of draining
 Y - a wand of fire (4)
Scrolls
 c - a scroll of blinking
 e - a scroll of recharging
 h - 2 scrolls of fog
 i - a scroll labeled JUYCLUN SHOL
 k - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 m - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 t - a scroll of identify
 W - a scroll of fear
 Z - a scroll of magic mapping
Potions
 q - 4 potions of heal wounds
 u - 2 potions of magic
 A - 6 potions of curing
 C - 2 dark potions
 D - 2 potions of berserk rage
 E - 2 silvery potions
 G - a white potion
 P - a yellow potion
 R - a bubbling coppery potion
 T - 2 metallic puce potions
...
Comestibles
 b - a bread ration
 f - 6 meat rations


   Skills:
 - Level 3.0 Throwing
 * Level 7.8 Dodging
 - Level 3.0 Stealth
 - Level 5.0 Shields
 + Level 7.8 Spellcasting
 + Level 10.9 Conjurations
 - Level 3.6 Charms
 * Level 6.9 Fire Magic
 - Level 3.1 Evocations


You have 8 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         1%          1    None
b - Searing Ray           Conj           ######       1%          2    None
c - Fireball              Conj/Fire      ######....   2%          5    #####..
d - Dazzling Spray        Conj/Hex       #####...     1%          3    None
e - Iskenderun's Battles  Conj/Chrm      #####...     4%          5    #####..
f - Delayed Fireball      Conj/Fire      N/A          77%         7    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (8/15)               Lair (3/8) D:8         
Temple: D:4-7        Swamp: Lair:3-6    Shoals: Lair:3-6     Snake: Lair:3-6
Spider: Lair:3-6


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

Your attributes are resistant to harm.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
Potions and wands are less effective at restoring your health.

Any recommendations from the more experienced players would be appreciated! I'm not sure what is good to spend my spell slots on here. More damage? Escape-y things? Summons?

Fireball is a great spell. It will last you through the Orcish mines at least and maybe you find even more cool books there. Delayed fireball is cool but I never really found it essential. My opinion is that you could probably stand to diversify to some more utility magic...maybe some translocations (phase shift is a great spell, passage of Golubria is a poor man's cBlink), maybe some charms (not much now, but you might like deflect missiles and haste later), maybe some summonings (shadow creatures is great throughout the game). For later game conjurations maybe looks towards orb of destruction, which blows up everything regardless of resistances. Spellforged Servitor is also fun and powerful if you get into summoning magic.

There's also a really amazing zero-mana spell called "hitting stuff with a weapon" :P I would recommend you look into that sometime soon, especially as a demigod. +3 strength is not doing you a lot of good with a robe and a blowgun. Put a couple points in Fighting too just for the HP.

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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1013 on: October 14, 2015, 04:02:11 pm »
+1

Oh, no, I totally accidentally wrote the opposite word of what I meant.  The easy part of the game is too HARD compared to the late parts.

I'll leave it incorrect, for reference.

Oh gotcha
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1014 on: October 14, 2015, 04:34:30 pm »
+1

Fireball is a great spell. It will last you through the Orcish mines at least and maybe you find even more cool books there. Delayed fireball is cool but I never really found it essential. My opinion is that you could probably stand to diversify to some more utility magic...maybe some translocations (phase shift is a great spell, passage of Golubria is a poor man's cBlink), maybe some charms (not much now, but you might like deflect missiles and haste later), maybe some summonings (shadow creatures is great throughout the game). For later game conjurations maybe looks towards orb of destruction, which blows up everything regardless of resistances. Spellforged Servitor is also fun and powerful if you get into summoning magic.
Cool I kinda thought I should get some sort of utility spell, but I wasn't really sure which of them were good. I'll get Passage and use it to escape things that close in on me, which is sometimes a little tricky.
Quote
There's also a really amazing zero-mana spell called "hitting stuff with a weapon" :P I would recommend you look into that sometime soon, especially as a demigod. +3 strength is not doing you a lot of good with a robe and a blowgun. Put a couple points in Fighting too just for the HP.

I didn't want to be melee-ing things because I wanted to use my XP for spells, but I could start working on hitting things with a weapon around now. My main concern is not being able to cast spells reliably any more once I'm wearing armour. I also haven't found any rand-arts that made me really want to use a weapon. Randarts I've found are an Arbalest that disrupts magic casting and a Sling with negative Int. I don't love them. I've found a few branded weapons, but didn't want to try them out at the point I'm at (morningstar of draining, whip of flaming, 2 short swords of venom, spear of venom). None of them really seemed worth equipping and investing skill points for.

It's been easier to just blow things up from range before they get close to me. The +3 Strength ring was on my finger because I hadn't really found many rings.
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sitnaltax

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1015 on: October 14, 2015, 09:30:44 pm »
+1

While we're talking Crawl though. I'm currently playing a Demigod Conjurer and I've found a lot of books. Wondering what people are recommending I go for in terms of spells. I usually die before I get this sort of spell selection. I have access to the following books:
Book of Conjurations: Magic Dart, Searing Ray, Dazzling Spray, Fulminant Prism, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Iskenderun's Battlesphere
Book of the Dragon:  Flight, Cause Fear, Bolt of Fire, Dragon Form, Dragon's Call
Book of Burglary: Swiftness, Passwall, Passage of Golubria, Lee's Rapid Deconstruction, Invisibility, Darkness
Book of Fire: Ignite Poison, Fireball, Bolt of Fire, Delayed Fireball, Ring of Flames
Book of Power: Fulminant Prism, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Venom Bolt, Bolt of Magma, Iron Shot, Orb of Destruction, Spellforged Servitor

Any recommendations from the more experienced players would be appreciated! I'm not sure what is good to spend my spell slots on here. More damage? Escape-y things? Summons?

Bolt of Fire is my very favorite bread-and-butter attack spell. It has good range, does way more damage than Fireball, and not much resists it. For fire-resistant monster, you'll eventually want something irresistable. Orb of Destruction is a great choice, when your Conjurations gets high enough. The aiming takes some getting used to, but it deals impressive damage. Iron Shot is also fine. Bolt of Magma is... tolerable; I was never impressed with its range or damage.

Don't train any skill based on a spell you might find later. If you find Haste, you can turn off everything but Charms and cast it soon enough.

Having a melee backup weapon is a good idea. In the absence of a compelling find, I think either a quarterstaff or morningstar is a good choice. Staves/lajatangs are probably the best damage/XP payoff for someone who doesn't intend to go to 20 in the weapon skill. Maces give you the option to do DWhip/buckler if you find the DWhip, or morningstar/buckler, or great mace. Finding a nice great mace is usually easy in Vaults.

You seem to be a little hung up on the idea of a randart weapon? I don't think most characters, melee or non, will end up with an artifact weapon. It's a nice surprise when you do find something that's as good as a well-branded, +9 weapon in your skill of choice.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1016 on: October 15, 2015, 04:05:05 pm »
+2

Guys did you know did you know Shock can bounce out of your LOS and kill something did you know guys did you know?
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1017 on: October 15, 2015, 05:25:16 pm »
+1

A gnoll warrior I charmed killed enough enemies to promote to a gnoll sergeant.  I forgot how cute this game is. 
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1018 on: October 16, 2015, 11:16:21 am »
+3

Felids should have retained the ability to pick up corpses so they could pick up corpses and take them to a corner and drop them and then butcher and eat them there.

That's totally something cats do.

I have lots of great ideas for this game I'm not sure why I have not been contacted and begged for my input.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1019 on: October 19, 2015, 12:04:05 pm »
+3

Guys we should make a deckbuilder roguelike.

Then maybe blueblimp will stop playing Crypt of the Necrodancer for like, eleven consecutive minutes.
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pacovf

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1020 on: October 19, 2015, 03:16:10 pm »
+1

Isn't Mage Knight like basically 90% that?
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1021 on: October 19, 2015, 03:21:28 pm »
+2

Isn't Mage Knight like basically 90% that?
Your character doesn't totally die if you get into a bad situation.

Also, I can't play it on PC.  Which means I can't play it.  It's impossible to make it hit a table with my local gaming group.
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pubby

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1022 on: October 19, 2015, 03:28:21 pm »
+2

Guys we should make a deckbuilder roguelike.

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12307&p=196677

I'm only posting this because the thread gets moderately funny towards the bottom.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1023 on: October 21, 2015, 02:37:47 pm »
+1

Is pennance a good time to bail on your god? Or is there extra rage if you quit during pennance?
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pubby

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1024 on: October 22, 2015, 10:47:58 am »
+1

If you're talking about crawl, then I don't think penance affects abandonment wrath. Also, penance is usually very weak and short-lived.
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