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Author Topic: roguelike games  (Read 272779 times)

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Titandrake

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #225 on: February 28, 2014, 02:46:45 pm »
+1

The issue I have with the 4 meat cubes achievement is that there are 4 zones, and you can fight a harbinger at most once per zone. So to get it, you need to fight the one for the first 2 floors out of sheer luck, because it's so unlikely you find a Book of Rev. Then you have to luck into a Book of Revelations. Then you have to hope neither Depths nor Womb is a labyrinth level, because I believe the boss replacement doesn't work there (probably because it tries to replace the forced boss fights instead of the one before it.) And you have to hope you never fight the Headless Horseman, or Conquest, because odds are you'll get a pony instead.

Basically, everything has to go right, and the odds of getting it without explicitly resetting every time you can't are stupid.

Also, I think Isaac + D6 > Cain, but that's just because D6 is stupid. Otherwise Cain is pretty unquestionably the best character.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #226 on: February 28, 2014, 03:34:00 pm »
+1

What do you guys do with Randarts you find that are not useful to your character?
Some gods except them as sacrifice.  Some I might some day use, like a holy branded weapon from a skill i can crosstrain, I toss those in stash.  Draining and distortion ones I toss in lava
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pacovf

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #227 on: February 28, 2014, 06:19:46 pm »
+1

The issue I have with the 4 meat cubes achievement is that there are 4 zones, and you can fight a harbinger at most once per zone. So to get it, you need to fight the one for the first 2 floors out of sheer luck, because it's so unlikely you find a Book of Rev. Then you have to luck into a Book of Revelations. Then you have to hope neither Depths nor Womb is a labyrinth level, because I believe the boss replacement doesn't work there (probably because it tries to replace the forced boss fights instead of the one before it.) And you have to hope you never fight the Headless Horseman, or Conquest, because odds are you'll get a pony instead.

Basically, everything has to go right, and the odds of getting it without explicitly resetting every time you can't are stupid.

Also, I think Isaac + D6 > Cain, but that's just because D6 is stupid. Otherwise Cain is pretty unquestionably the best character.

Yeah, is still luck based, but if you prioritize the book of revelations in your runs, I'd give you a 10% chance to get it in any given run, and... man, beating the womb 10 times, unlocking the chest, and beating Sheol and the chest with all characters takes a while.

How do you use the D6? It seems like the intended use is to reroll treasure rooms (since 50% of the objects there are pretty crappy) and boss drops (if you are particularly unlucky), and that's kinda tight in the first floors because of the lack of rooms. Plus, you'll have to drop the D6 at some moment for a more useful active object (book of revelations, nail, prayer card, you name it), while you keep the lucky foot forever. I don't know, I think that better starting stats and overall better stat progression from pills beats the extra reliability from early treasure rooms, unless there are ways to abuse the D6 that I don't know of...? I know there's an exploit involving libraries, but that takes a lot of luck and keys.
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Grujah

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #228 on: February 28, 2014, 10:14:07 pm »
+1

On a new run with a new Minotaur Berzerker, and it's going even better than before. I managed to find plate armour early, found a good halberd (anti-magic), and found a ring of regen, which is incredibly useful to speed up resting.

Using those I've managed to get to the second level of the lair, where I now have max piety, and found !crystal plate! just lying around near a stair case. On top of that I decided to ID some potions in a safe spot and found the mutations potion when it gave me breathe fire, +2 strength and +2 int! Trog's started granting me branded halberds, nothing amazing so far (freezing and dragon-slaying), too. Some runs just go well.

(Having said this I'll probably die as soon as I start playing again)

I don't quaff-identify if I do not know potion of mut anymore. Esp not on L2. Though those are some good muts.

And I only find crystal plates with like Draconians and Spriggans, sigh.
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heron

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #229 on: February 28, 2014, 10:33:52 pm »
+1

Also note that quaff-id is bad as it often wastes valuable resources like cure mut, speed, heal, etc. You usually have enough ID-Scrolls to ID all of your potions and a few scrolls.
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Titandrake

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #230 on: February 28, 2014, 10:49:12 pm »
+1

The issue I have with the 4 meat cubes achievement is that there are 4 zones, and you can fight a harbinger at most once per zone. So to get it, you need to fight the one for the first 2 floors out of sheer luck, because it's so unlikely you find a Book of Rev. Then you have to luck into a Book of Revelations. Then you have to hope neither Depths nor Womb is a labyrinth level, because I believe the boss replacement doesn't work there (probably because it tries to replace the forced boss fights instead of the one before it.) And you have to hope you never fight the Headless Horseman, or Conquest, because odds are you'll get a pony instead.

Basically, everything has to go right, and the odds of getting it without explicitly resetting every time you can't are stupid.

Also, I think Isaac + D6 > Cain, but that's just because D6 is stupid. Otherwise Cain is pretty unquestionably the best character.

Yeah, is still luck based, but if you prioritize the book of revelations in your runs, I'd give you a 10% chance to get it in any given run, and... man, beating the womb 10 times, unlocking the chest, and beating Sheol and the chest with all characters takes a while.

How do you use the D6? It seems like the intended use is to reroll treasure rooms (since 50% of the objects there are pretty crappy) and boss drops (if you are particularly unlucky), and that's kinda tight in the first floors because of the lack of rooms. Plus, you'll have to drop the D6 at some moment for a more useful active object (book of revelations, nail, prayer card, you name it), while you keep the lucky foot forever. I don't know, I think that better starting stats and overall better stat progression from pills beats the extra reliability from early treasure rooms, unless there are ways to abuse the D6 that I don't know of...? I know there's an exploit involving libraries, but that takes a lot of luck and keys.

The library exploit is a bit easier than it seems. I believe the chance of a library room increases if you've visited one before, even if you don't carry a book into the next level, but I can't find this anywhere online so it might be false. It's still pretty luck based.

What makes the D6 good is that you can reroll devil room items. In the ideal D6 game, you get a devil deal on Caves 2. You either pickup or reroll into one of the passive items (like Mark, or Pact, or Brimstone, or maybe Knife if you're good enough at it.) Then, you try to get as many passive items as you can, before you find an active you absolutely cannot pass up. If you get lucky enough, you can keep the D6 into the chest, and get a second shot at all the items there.

You can also reroll the $15 shop items, in hopes that you get a Treasure Map or Compass, or secret room items in hope for Dr. Fetus or Epic Fetus. The main use however, is avoiding devil rooms that have awful items in them. If you're skilled enough, you can even go for Guppy and get it a decent amount of the time. I'm not that good, so every time I try I end up dying thanks to Dead Cat :/
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #231 on: February 28, 2014, 11:09:48 pm »
+1

Also note that quaff-id is bad as it often wastes valuable resources like cure mut, speed, heal, etc. You usually have enough ID-Scrolls to ID all of your potions and a few scrolls.
Quaff IDing stuff you have 3+ copies of is ok.  Bad mutation potions are too rare to get in triplicate, you're mostly going to figure out whether the stack is potion of confusion or potion of cure.

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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #232 on: February 28, 2014, 11:56:29 pm »
+1

On a new run with a new Minotaur Berzerker, and it's going even better than before. I managed to find plate armour early, found a good halberd (anti-magic), and found a ring of regen, which is incredibly useful to speed up resting.

Using those I've managed to get to the second level of the lair, where I now have max piety, and found !crystal plate! just lying around near a stair case. On top of that I decided to ID some potions in a safe spot and found the mutations potion when it gave me breathe fire, +2 strength and +2 int! Trog's started granting me branded halberds, nothing amazing so far (freezing and dragon-slaying), too. Some runs just go well.

(Having said this I'll probably die as soon as I start playing again)

I don't quaff-identify if I do not know potion of mut anymore. Esp not on L2. Though those are some good muts.

And I only find crystal plates with like Draconians and Spriggans, sigh.

Oh it was way earlier in the run that I did the quaff IDing. Probably around D3. I like to play pretty loose at the start, if I die early I don't lose much time.

This run is going really well now. I've IDed almost every scroll, and finished the Lair and have started exploring the Orcish Mines. I think I can probably take the Shoals, as I'm a super turtle and have rElec and the ability to fly with a RandArt. Still haven't worked out if I have rPoison in my ring collection though. Bad luck IDing rings so the Spiders will have to wait until I work that out.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #233 on: March 01, 2014, 02:42:32 am »
+1

The shoals has lots of nasty poisonous sea snakes that will make you prefer to have rpois.  It's not strictly necessary but if it takes spending money at a shop it could be worth it.

On the other hand, nothing there is actually electric (it doesn't have electric eels or any normal fish stuffs) so that probably won't help much.
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Grujah

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #234 on: March 01, 2014, 07:32:16 am »
+1

Been pushing DsTm, DsSk and MeSk today. Been very unlucky. Am very frustrated as a result.
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shraeye

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #235 on: March 01, 2014, 10:36:19 am »
+1

I hope that someday I'll learn all of these crazy abbreviations.  The other day I made it down to the fourth level, yay.  Even if it's not much, that still felt like an achievement.
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #236 on: March 01, 2014, 12:35:40 pm »
+1

The shoals has lots of nasty poisonous sea snakes that will make you prefer to have rpois.  It's not strictly necessary but if it takes spending money at a shop it could be worth it.

On the other hand, nothing there is actually electric (it doesn't have electric eels or any normal fish stuffs) so that probably won't help much.

For some reason I thought that place would have lots of electric eels. Oh well, I'm almost done clearing the Mines now. Had to leave the final vault after taking a big chunk out of it when some orc high priests summoned too many demons to deal with safely.
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #237 on: March 01, 2014, 02:32:12 pm »
+1

Bought a randart armour with rPoison, but it's not my sweet crystal plate. :(
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #238 on: March 01, 2014, 05:53:46 pm »
+1

Now that you have it, Spiders may be a much easier rune.  I found spiders with rpois a good deal easier than shoals.  Granted, I didn't hit many uniques, but still.  The one thing to watch out for is the suppression moths, they cancel all magical effects on your items so they remove your poison resistance.  I just stayed away from those, they wander so eventually you can clear the rest of the floor without fighting them.
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pacovf

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #239 on: March 01, 2014, 06:26:12 pm »
+1

What makes the D6 good is that you can reroll devil room items. In the ideal D6 game, you get a devil deal on Caves 2. You either pickup or reroll into one of the passive items (like Mark, or Pact, or Brimstone, or maybe Knife if you're good enough at it.) Then, you try to get as many passive items as you can, before you find an active you absolutely cannot pass up. If you get lucky enough, you can keep the D6 into the chest, and get a second shot at all the items there.

You can also reroll the $15 shop items, in hopes that you get a Treasure Map or Compass, or secret room items in hope for Dr. Fetus or Epic Fetus. The main use however, is avoiding devil rooms that have awful items in them. If you're skilled enough, you can even go for Guppy and get it a decent amount of the time. I'm not that good, so every time I try I end up dying thanks to Dead Cat :/

Hadn't thought of rerolling devil room items, for some reason. Guess I haven't played D6 Isaac enough. Yeah, I can see why people like him now (going for Guppy seems way too risky, though, if you don't find any of the pieces in a red chest beforehand)
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heron

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #240 on: March 02, 2014, 12:15:56 pm »
+1

Argh! Autotravel into Aizul, he casts sleep on me before I get an action, I wake up at 2/3 health, and stupidly don't use invis/escape immediately. This run was going so perfectly too.
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #241 on: March 02, 2014, 03:22:53 pm »
+1

Now that you have it, Spiders may be a much easier rune.  I found spiders with rpois a good deal easier than shoals.  Granted, I didn't hit many uniques, but still.  The one thing to watch out for is the suppression moths, they cancel all magical effects on your items so they remove your poison resistance.  I just stayed away from those, they wander so eventually you can clear the rest of the floor without fighting them.

Decided to follow your advice and I've cleared the first few floors of the Spider Nest without incident. The most irritating thing I've found so far are ghost moths, who are unable to kill me, but are irritatingly successful at debuffing my stats. I just found this item. I have a Polearms skill of 18 so it seems possibly really useful on the surface, but it's constant cursing might make it unusable. I do have 12 scrolls of remove curse, but I'm not sure if I want to use them on this item. Do you have any experience with this weapon?
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Titandrake

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #242 on: March 02, 2014, 10:52:48 pm »
+1

I got the 4 meat cubes acheivement! Got it while playing Eve, by lucking into my first 2 meat cubes and buying the book in Depths. I'm also on a good streak right now, just beat Satan with Eve, and Chest with Eve and ??.?. Just have to do all of Samson now, which is going to be completely awful.
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pacovf

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #243 on: March 03, 2014, 05:47:48 am »
+1

Samson is horrible. I was so glad when I finished his runs, so that I didn't have to use him ever again. His unlocks aren't even that good to begin with! But, yeah, completionism got the best of me. Just checked the wiki, apparently his starting item reduces the odds of getting better items too. I guess he's just meant to be hard mode... Good luck!

Yay for the meat boy achievement :D The one that took me forever to unlock was the Mom's eye/contacts one, for some reason.

By the way, what objects do you look for, in your runs? I usually try to get flight as soon as possible, which means spirit of the night (the closest there is to a reliable Win Condition item in this game, IMHO) or lord of the pit, and I buy the ladder before that; then I try to get some source of soul hearts (the nail from the Devil, the book of revelations from shop, library or Devil, or if lucky celtic cross), and a way to recharge active items to speed it up (battery, 6 volt and habit, all from the shop). Given how many rooms are made trivial by flight, I can stockpile an obscene amount of soul hearts by the time I get to the difficult zones and just bruteforce them.

Everything else is just the cherry on top. I usually try to get down to zero hearts (mainly through guppy's paw) to perma-activate some items (whore of babylon, polaroid). If I'm going for the Cathedral/Chest, then I try to get three orbitals (abusing the casinos, you can get a fly to orbit you randomly from any slot machine; two of those plus a meat cube/face is enough), since that drastically decreases the number of times you get hit by the tear spam. Or brimstone, but personally I don't like it that much. Another nice thing is high tears + cancer, even without knockback upgrades you can keep any single enemy at bay for as long as you want to because of the tear spam, but unfortunately if you are going to the chest you can't keep cancer (except with mom's purse)...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 06:02:36 am by pacovf »
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Grujah

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #244 on: March 03, 2014, 07:01:40 pm »
+1

Ok, artefacts.

So, my last char was red DrVM of Vehumet. Was GREAT. I also learned fireball and was clearing everything until I ran out of mana and was surrounded, and have previosly only found 1 of each tp scrolls, and read both before IDing them.

So, this char was DrVM, too. Turned out red, as well, and found a book with Iginite poison.
Also found an artefact: Wrath of Trog, Battleaxe +4/+11, antimagic, *Rage. Uhm no.

I then find a shop with these (I can't buy any, yet):
Ring, EV+5 Acc -1
Ring, rC+, Str+1, Acc+6, Dam+3
Ring, rElec, rF-, Str+1, Dam+6

all decent.
And THEN I find an artefact staff. No ID scrolls on me. Voice #1 says "don't wield-ID, you know it's gonna turn out bad" Voice #2, however, goes "Hey, you got uncurse scrolls, what's the worse that can happen?".
So I wield it.
Staff "Hell-Harrower", +Inv, rF+, MR+.
Pretty awesome, huh?
Also, distortion and Rage* (Bersekitis).

(I had +1 buckler and flail of protection earlier).
So, I risk Berserking in worst possible moment or being banished.

Huh.

Edit: so far, Berserkitis is not THAT bad. Will have to unwield eventually. Edit2: Dead, hubris, didn't cloud right away like I should have.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 07:18:47 pm by Grujah »
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Titandrake

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #245 on: March 03, 2014, 08:03:51 pm »
+1

Samson is horrible. I was so glad when I finished his runs, so that I didn't have to use him ever again. His unlocks aren't even that good to begin with! But, yeah, completionism got the best of me. Just checked the wiki, apparently his starting item reduces the odds of getting better items too. I guess he's just meant to be hard mode... Good luck!

Yay for the meat boy achievement :D The one that took me forever to unlock was the Mom's eye/contacts one, for some reason.

By the way, what objects do you look for, in your runs? I usually try to get flight as soon as possible, which means spirit of the night (the closest there is to a reliable Win Condition item in this game, IMHO) or lord of the pit, and I buy the ladder before that; then I try to get some source of soul hearts (the nail from the Devil, the book of revelations from shop, library or Devil, or if lucky celtic cross), and a way to recharge active items to speed it up (battery, 6 volt and habit, all from the shop). Given how many rooms are made trivial by flight, I can stockpile an obscene amount of soul hearts by the time I get to the difficult zones and just bruteforce them.

Everything else is just the cherry on top. I usually try to get down to zero hearts (mainly through guppy's paw) to perma-activate some items (whore of babylon, polaroid). If I'm going for the Cathedral/Chest, then I try to get three orbitals (abusing the casinos, you can get a fly to orbit you randomly from any slot machine; two of those plus a meat cube/face is enough), since that drastically decreases the number of times you get hit by the tear spam. Or brimstone, but personally I don't like it that much. Another nice thing is high tears + cancer, even without knockback upgrades you can keep any single enemy at bay for as long as you want to because of the tear spam, but unfortunately if you are going to the chest you can't keep cancer (except with mom's purse)...

My general plan in most runs is to never take red heart damage. So I try really hard to get soul hearts early, usually by blowing up the special rocks. In devil rooms, items I'll look for are Mark, Pact, Brimstone, and Spirit of the Night. (Brimstone is only worth it with the Brimstone glitch, or with Poly/Quad/Triple Shot.) I used to not like Nail, but I'm coming around to it. Sometimes, I'll take Dead Cat, but that's only when it's not a big hit to me (like if I have 2 heart containers left, then it effectively costs 1.)

I also used to auto-take Spirit of the Night, but I'm starting to take Mark and Pact over it for the damage and soul hearts. There's also the issue where Spirit doesn't help you as much in the final floors, the layouts aren't as easy to exploit. My goal for every run is to get down to no red hearts + a lot of soul hearts for Polaroid, and to get enough damage to clear rooms quickly. I'm really awful at dodging enemies, so it's easier for me to play when I kill things before having to think about dodging.

Priorities for me are: Soul hearts > orbitals > damage > tears > health up (prioritized higher earlier so that I can afford devil deals, goes down after I get a couple nice items.) Flight is nice if I get it, but I'd take damage first unless I already have a lot of damage.

For active items, it's really what I can get. Unicorn + Gamekid are nice for the rooms I really don't feel like dodging in. Book of Rev/Nail are good for soul hearts. Book of Shadows is good for the endgame, but I'd rather have a good farming active before then. Paw is amazing if you get it at the right time, but I never do. (Unlocking more devil items didn't help.) Most actives I don't care about.
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #246 on: March 04, 2014, 10:23:35 am »
+1

Do you guys know of a way to put DC:SS into full-screen mode? I tried alt-Enter, tried messing with the config file, doesn't seem to work. I've just been going into 800x600 resolution like a barbarian
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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #247 on: March 04, 2014, 10:41:45 am »
+1

Do you guys know of a way to put DC:SS into full-screen mode? I tried alt-Enter, tried messing with the config file, doesn't seem to work. I've just been going into 800x600 resolution like a barbarian

Changing the init file has always worked for me. Did you remember to delete the # at the beginning of the line?
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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #248 on: March 04, 2014, 10:46:59 am »
+1

I did...what were the settings exactly that you changed?
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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #249 on: March 04, 2014, 11:30:55 am »
+1

I did...what were the settings exactly that you changed?

I just delete the # in front of 'tile_full_screen = true'.
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