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Author Topic: roguelike games  (Read 110767 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1075 on: January 15, 2016, 09:07:59 am »
+1

Yeah I'm not gonna be able to agree with you at all.  The essence of a roguelike is "crap, I died," and character growth or at least an item collection can build that to "crap, I had tons of cool stuff and a lot of things going for me, AND I DIED".  Random level generation is much more minor to me, when I try to get a halfling through a fixed shape bailey I don't feel like "man, this feels more like every other game I've ever played", I get that feeling when I'm stomping through midgame with a MiBe that cannot die. 



You have a 0% chance of encountering daddy longlegs or isaac before killing Mom when you win your first run and are greeted with credits for doing it, so my statement about a 100% base stat win was true.  Maybe it is more of a roguelike once you get into extendedgame/postgame content, but I can't speak to that as much because I haven't experienced it yet, I can only talk about the core base game experience and say I don't think it's roguelike (i've mostly done challenges after winning Isaac and Eve)
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Hyphen-ated

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1076 on: January 15, 2016, 03:04:13 pm »
+1

Quote
The essence of a roguelike is "crap, I died,"
yeah, we don't agree about this at all. donkey kong has "crap, I died".

Quote
Random level generation is much more minor to me, when I try to get a halfling through a fixed shape bailey I don't feel like "man, this feels more like every other game I've ever played"
That fixed shape bailey is in a different context in every run, though, so your interactions with it are at least slightly different every time. if we flipped it around so almost the whole game was fixed, and there were tiny pockets of random generation, the game wouldn't feel like a roguelike to me at all, because every run would be mostly the same as you do the optimal route through the fixed content that you know by heart.

if there were large fixed baileys in my earlier hypothetical game, those portions would not feel very roguelikey to me because your interactions with them would be largely the same every time.

You have a 0% chance of encountering daddy longlegs or isaac before killing Mom when you win your first run and are greeted with credits for doing it, so my statement about a 100% base stat win was true.  Maybe it is more of a roguelike once you get into extendedgame/postgame content, but I can't speak to that as much because I haven't experienced it yet
oh, I see. most isaac players I've interacted with don't consider that to be "postgame" content at all, more like you aren't allowed to play the regular game until you unlock it or bypass the unlock system. for instance, the overwhelming majority of isaac speedruns are to beat the chest, and generally speedruns don't include postgame content.

and like, I beat mom's foot on literally my first run when I first played flash isaac. that's a pretty uncompelling experience if the game is supposed to be that easy. (granted, the game got harder in every update since then, from wotl to rebirth to afterbirth)

I'm a big supporter of people downloading a save file so they can play the full game without paying the unlock tax first
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1077 on: January 16, 2016, 02:31:23 am »
+2

[patchnote]"* Polyphemus can throw his yaks at the player."[/patchnote]

I need to play crawl again.
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1078 on: January 16, 2016, 12:16:34 pm »
+1

You're probably more likely to encounter Robin throwing her goblins at the player, but yes, this can happen.
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blueblimp

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1079 on: January 16, 2016, 09:39:53 pm »
+1

Binding of Isaac is not a roguelike because being very very good at the game and not finding consumables (and or permagrowth, either one) puts your chances of winning at 100% or virtually 100%.
I tried to find if people do BoI Low% runs, but I couldn't find any. I don't play much BoI so I don't know if this is because it hasn't been done or just that I'm looking in the wrong places. If a Low% run hasn't been done, wouldn't that contradict your claim here?

As far as a game I actually know something about, Low% is a thing in Necrodancer and all characters (except Coda) have been cleared Low%. It's possible to do it at very high reliability too, if you're skilled enough. But I don't feel like this diminishes the importance of resource management in the game, since Low% is not a popular way to play the game, and acquiring and using items is important in all of the ways the game is commonly played.

I'm not trying to claim that there isn't a significant difference between action roguelikes and traditional roguelikes. (Among other things, being real-time instead of turn-based already sets them apart.) I just feel like maybe you're underrating the importance of items in action roguelikes.
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Hyphen-ated

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1080 on: January 16, 2016, 10:44:50 pm »
+1

I tried to find if people do BoI Low% runs, but I couldn't find any. I don't play much BoI so I don't know if this is because it hasn't been done or just that I'm looking in the wrong places. If a Low% run hasn't been done, wouldn't that contradict your claim here?
I've never heard of anyone doing low% in isaac. I'd expect to have heard about it already if it was a thing. it sounds like it would be miserable.

Someone might have gotten close while on a deathless streak, if all the items they found were garbage.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1081 on: January 20, 2016, 01:12:17 am »
+1

A low % run for beating mom and getting the ending credits would be trivially easy.  It's not gonna be up there because no one would be impressed.

But hyphenated says that's not real BoI, endgame BoI very well may play more like a roguelike.  I was saying the product I was initially presented where I cleared about six floors, killed mom, and got told "a winnar is u" with all my items feeling like cute toys instead of survival tools was not a roguelike.  If all the fancy endgame stuff I haven't unlocked yet is difficult enough to necessitate the item scaling more strongly than that's an action roguelike.  It's kind of a weird disparity though.  Kind of like saying WoW is a competitive multiplayer game, well, it isn't, at first, actually, but you can progress and unlock and get to a point where there's a mode where yes it is. 

There's drastically increased inevitability in the way enemies attack as you go deeper, but i'm pretty sure there's nothing Mom and down where you can get hit and not feel stupid for it.  I'd probably prefer a more bottom heavy difficulty curve, but cest la vie.
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Hyphen-ated

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1082 on: January 20, 2016, 02:57:03 am »
+1

pops, it sounds like you would get a lot of benefit from ignoring the unlocking aspect and just playing on a 100% file. here's where you can get one: http://www.speedrun.com/afterbirth/resources

to use it I think you have to start a game in slot 3 first if you haven't already, then quit out and drop this file in
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1083 on: January 20, 2016, 12:21:56 pm »
+2

slot 3 is the one i'm using :( is there a way i can make it slot 2 so i can try it out without starting over the unlock progression thing i got going

i mean i don't want to knock over my sandcastle.
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Hyphen-ated

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1084 on: January 20, 2016, 01:41:36 pm »
+1

yeah sure just rename the file to have 2 at the end
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1085 on: February 03, 2016, 09:26:18 am »
+1

I keep forgetting to do this


Is there a way to play the ascii version of dcss online at work?  I've only done so on WebTiles, my desk is less private these days.
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1086 on: February 03, 2016, 11:51:12 am »
+1

I keep forgetting to do this


Is there a way to play the ascii version of dcss online at work?  I've only done so on WebTiles, my desk is less private these days.

I believe you would need an SSH client to do so, but I may be wrong.
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1087 on: February 07, 2016, 01:07:40 pm »
+2

Invisible Inc is over half off from now until Feb 12. Finally picked it up and expect to see posts from me about it here.
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blueblimp

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1088 on: February 08, 2016, 08:31:40 pm »
+2

For anyone who's interested in Necrodancer racing, there's a season starting in about a week, lasting 6 weeks: https://twitter.com/CoNDORLeague/status/696773469279662080. (If you're interested in trying racing but not a 6-week-long thing, there's a 1-day introductory tournament called CoNDUIT that runs monthly-ish.)
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1089 on: February 09, 2016, 02:19:53 pm »
+1

Invisible Inc is over half off from now until Feb 12. Finally picked it up and expect to see posts from me about it here.

So far I love the game, I'm still playing on Beginner. It actually seems worth doing the first few times, as the game doesn't explain everything. I didn't know lethal weapons wouldn't reload between missions, learned some fun things about how lots of different interactions work and have definitely taken advantage of liberal use of rewind while experimenting.

I made it to the final mission once, but couldn't figure out what to do after I hacked what I thought was the final server. Turns out that opens a door to the final server, which wasn't really shown clearly to me. Had to look it up to figure out what had happened.

Overall impressions are that it's great, but could use more tooltips or explanations in game. Can anyone explain to me if there's an algorithm for how agents turn up in detention centres? I seem to get Decker if I don't have him or he's been captured earlier (3 or 4 times this happened), and the one time I had Decker with me, I got Sharp (I haven't finished this run yet, will this unlock him?). Is it just weird luck that I keep finding Decker or is that deliberate?
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Grujah

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1090 on: February 09, 2016, 02:23:27 pm »
+2

If you lost an agent on the way, you will find that agent (Same version, same gear).
If you didn't lost anybody, it's random, always regular version, no gear but yes implants (which makes shalem 11 shitty as he is all gear  ).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 07:14:34 am by Grujah »
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Jorbles

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1091 on: February 11, 2016, 09:27:09 pm »
+2

I beat Invisible Inc.! (On beginner/story mode anyways.)

It was starting with Decker, Banks, Fusion and Parasite 1.0. I rescued Sharp early (2nd mission) and got him a lot of augments. I also notably found Dagger, 2 Buster Chips I, a Shock Trap II, a Neural Disruptor III and Shalem 11.

The secret to beating the last mission it turns out is you just have enough agents to sit on the Omni guards so they never ever wake up. Should I try Experienced Story or Endless next? (I used 1 Rewind, but never restarted a level.)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 09:32:54 pm by Jorbles »
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pacovf

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1092 on: February 11, 2016, 09:36:06 pm »
+1

I don't recommend Endless, it's going to tire you of the game, IMHO, and according to the forums, it's not very well balanced after a while (might have changed with the last patch/DLC). Experienced is a better idea. The number of rewinds is not the only thing that changes between difficulty levels...
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Grujah

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1093 on: February 12, 2016, 07:25:30 am »
+1

Endless is great up until one point, the mega-viruses hit hard at first, additional measures (passkey to exist, emp protection on safes, etc) is great, but there comes a time when you have like 3-4 maxed out agents with superb gear and you can take down the whole level without a sweat and restock.

For example, I had a Nika with Nuclear Reactor gun and he could shoot 3 people down a turn with it. Deckers was packed with stims and invisicloaks and could walk like 20 a turn, everybody packs a lot of personal servers and EMP III to hack down stuff, you have e-con chip for money..

Yeah, number of rewinds is not the only stuff, and I do recommend Ironman (no rewinds). Expert+ for example, raises alarm even on KOs, you can use stungun in melee if noticed (guards have better reflexes), and you don't know if a spot is watched if you don't see the source (in lower difficult , it is enough to observe the spot) among other things.

So I recommend Experienced or Advanced, and than later Endless - and after you get tired of endless if you still wanna play go for Expert+.
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Titandrake

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1094 on: February 12, 2016, 03:33:20 pm »
+1

I continue to be completely awful at Binding of Isaac, but after a lot of brute-forcing I did Lamb + Mega Satan with Keeper. Swallowed Penny early, found Restock and Steam Sale in the shop, found a Blood Donation Machine and a Temperance card. Used all that to buy a ton of items, including Chaos, which let me turn into Guppy without taking devil deals. Wasn't too bad from there.

To get 1001% I still have to do:
- Keeper Boss Rush
- Keeper Hush
- Keeper Chest (I already did Cathedral)
- Brains challenge
- Collect everything I haven't collected yet.

But honestly I'm getting sick of Keeper, so maybe I'll stop.
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popsofctown

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1095 on: April 18, 2016, 03:30:45 pm »
+4

SPELUNKY
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pacovf

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1096 on: July 01, 2016, 12:02:02 pm »
+1

Played Convoy. The obvious (and acknowledged) comparison is to FTL, from design to art style and even music.

Basic premise is, you are moving an MCV (basically a large truck) through the wasteland, with up to four escourt cars to protect it. The MCV is immobile and starts pretty defenseless, but packs a punch by the end of a run; the escourts can move around to block other cars, shoot at enemies, avoid environmental hazards, etc.

Pros:
-Worldmap, you get to choose where to go and when (which makes it too easy on easy, but that's on me). You can take on quests, choose whether it's time to head back to camp for repairs/fuel or not yet, venture into high security areas or go around them (wasting time and fuel), etc.
-Minibosses!
-You can bump cars, which damages both cars (although the right equipment will turn that damage heavily in your favour), but can also throw them into cliffs for an instakill or what have you (the enemy doesn't bump you, at least not on easy). Positioning is very, very important to block each other and defend your MCV.
-You can choose your MCV, up to four different escourts, and the equipment on all of them. That's a lot of choosing.

Cons:
-You can't escape a fight once you've started it. That's a pretty big deal for a roguelike...
-MCV weapons are fun, but escourt weapons feel very samey. Unlike in FTL, where's there's no mistaking an ion cannon from a laser from a fire bomb. Which leads to late game fights feeling very repetitive.

I think what FTL did best is that fights were very reactive. Nothing ever went according to plan, and you had to make difficult decisions about your priorities if you wanted to survive (what weapon do I power? Do I turn off the oxygen? Who do I send to repair that breach? Do I damage their shield room or their weapon room first? etc). While there's a bit of that in Convoy, it's not often enough, and there is not enough variety in your build IMHO (not like FTL is perfect in that regard, considering that you still need a build that can defeat the flagship, and not all viable builds can).

Anyway, if you want to see another take on FTL, Convoy is pretty fun (Mad Max theme helps), if flawed.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 12:03:31 pm by pacovf »
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pacovf

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1097 on: July 03, 2016, 07:10:54 pm »
+1

Decided to launch DCSS for old time's sake.

Got murdered by sheep in Lair 1.

Yay!

EDIT: ugh why did I decide to try Crawl again, like life isn't frustrating enough by itself.

EDIT: seriously now, why do I keep trying. Had a nice HEWa of Chei, reached lair, got a nice enchanted bow trained to max speed, came across the Akashic records, died to yaks and greediness before I could learn Controlled Blink. Whyyyyyyyy
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 12:38:00 am by pacovf »
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sitnaltax

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1098 on: September 10, 2016, 10:56:05 pm »
+1

I'm surprised Dream Quest is not mentioned here. (Maybe it's only for iOS? I played it on my iPad.) It's basically a roguelike take on Dominion/Ascension-style deckbuilding. I actually don't like it at all but it has many fans and I respect its innovative genre mix. (The reason I don't like it is that I feel in some way it's a worst-of-both-worlds mix, but others may disagree.)

I just got Dream Quest a couple days ago and... wow. It's amazing. I can get how it's not for everyone, but I was drawn in quickly. It's $3 for iOS or $10 for PC, I assume because the author forgot that the PC port exists (the only place to get it is on a weird Humble Store page).

Edit: I recently got my first win with an action-chain focused Thief with the god that gives enemies a sword but you an equipment slot, and a Vampire Sword.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 10:57:36 pm by sitnaltax »
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blueblimp

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Re: roguelike games
« Reply #1099 on: September 10, 2016, 11:14:43 pm »
0

Fun fact: the creator of Dream Quest (Peter Whalen) was later hired by the Hearthstone team: http://www.pockettactics.com/news/ios-news/night-terror-one-last-dream-quest-update-before-peter-whalen-joins-hearthstone-team/.
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