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Author Topic: Preview #2: Doctor  (Read 75121 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Preview #2: Doctor
« on: June 04, 2013, 09:10:54 am »
+14

Quote from: Donald X.


Casimir III's father, Vladislaus the Elbow-High, lived to be 72. During Casimir's long reign, the Black Death hit Europe, and yet the Kingdom of Poland was largely spared. What was their secret? Careful rat management? Good health care? Probably being away from trade routes was a factor, but I like to consider all the angles. We had Rats in the last expansion, so it must be time for a Doctor.

The second main theme of Guilds is overpay. These are cards you can pay extra for to get more out of them. The amount you pay determines how much you get; you don't just get to overpay a certain specific amount. With Doctor, each $1 you overpay lets you look at another card. Overpay by $4 and you will look at the top card, trash it or discard it or put it back, then look at the top card again and make another choice, then a 3rd time, then a 4th time. Get it? If you put the card back you will get it again the next time, so that's not a great option until you are about out of overpays.

Doctor also does something when you play it. You can get rid of something you anticipate not wanting in your next 3 cards. It's exciting enough that you might actually buy one for $3, although you will prefer to buy one for $6 or $10 or something.

Overpay can be fed by coin tokens, just look at that synergy. And your options increase even further. Let's say you have $5 and a coin token, as with yesterday's example. In addition to whatever else, you could get a Doctor and overpay $2, or cash in the coin token and get a Doctor overpaying $3.

Overpay is something that happens when you buy a card. Didn't we have that already in Hinterlands? Well yes, but it doesn't feel especially similar. As the little "+" next to the "3" reminds you, overpay cards don't have a fixed cost (except when you trash them to an Apprentice or something; then Doctor costs $3 no matter what you actually paid). They increase the number of purchase options you have.
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RTT

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 09:15:35 am »
+1

wow i could even imagine opening with 5 for it and trash 2 estates in turn 1 if you are lucky.

a very interesting card.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 09:16:01 am »
0

Oooh, that's an interesting trasher.
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Gveoniz

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 09:17:27 am »
+1

That can also change your opening, I think?

RTT

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 09:18:21 am »
0

the better lookout=) but its terminal so not strictly better.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 09:19:50 am by RTT »
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 09:19:43 am »
0

Doctor/Fool's Gold looks decent on a $5/$2.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 09:21:44 am »
+1

I see synergy with Market Square.  When you have lots of money, either play the Market Squares for the buys, or keep them in your hand and buy an expensive Doctor, and take the whole Gold pile.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 09:22:11 am »
+1

But I think if you pay $5 for doctor in the first turn, you may not have $2 next turn.

SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 09:24:16 am »
0

Using this to manipulate reshuffles or in conjunction with self topdecking like courtyard, mandarin, and develop seems interesting.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 09:25:40 am »
0

Oh man, I love this.  It looks fantastic for ditching Copper and the overpay effect is like Mint with a little more flexibility and less weirdness.  Probably a very decent Curse trasher too.  Can't wait to try this one out.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 09:26:28 am »
0

Not so hot for trashing Ruins (on play, at least)
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 09:27:17 am »
+1

Imagine $5 start, buy buy Doctor, trash 2 cards.  Draw remaining 3 in deck, you have 6 cards not in hand and draw 2 of them, getting Doctor, name Copper, trash 3 of them.  At that point, you have 1 card in draw deck, Doctor and 4 in hand.  Say you buy a Silver, that a 7 card hand at the end of turn 2.  Pretty dang strong for fast trashing if you manage a $5 start.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2013, 09:28:00 am »
0

Love love LOVE this card. Trashers are the most fun cards anyways. Can't wait to try it.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2013, 09:28:23 am »
0

pay 10$ for it and get all the trash out of the next 7 cards. discard the ones you like to keep.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 09:34:00 am »
+1

With 5/2 and baker on board you may trash all three of your estate at once and get a 5 copper hand next turn.

Anti-synergies with scout if you only want to trash estates, as you cannot trash any card in your hand.
 

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2013, 09:34:14 am »
0

the better lookout=) but its terminal so not strictly better.
Also beside that it's not really better than Lookout.  Lookout has the problem that it's risky and you have to trash, but beside that you have more options.  After the start you don't mind trashing Estates or Coppers, and if there are Curses around you don't mind trashing them either.  Say you have one Estate left in your deck. Do you name it? Or name Copper? Probably Copper, but if you draw Estate (or Curse) you would definitely have prefered the Lookout. With 2Coppers vs 1 Estate it depends...  Of course, if you draw Gold+2xProvince, you prefer Doctor over Lookout, but that's still not a scenario where the Doctor gives you much beside stealing the action.

So as with probably all "on gain" cards, this one's play value is largely overpriced, and the value comes from the gain-effect.  So here you have to pay extra, but potential on-gain trashing is strong enough that it will get bought, just like you buy Mint just for the "trash 5 Coppers on gain".
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 09:35:36 am by DStu »
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2013, 09:37:53 am »
+24

In before celestial chameleon trashes the entire supply on turn 3
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2013, 09:41:10 am »
0

A thing I don't understand : Do you overpay BEFORE buying the card ? Or overpay $1, apply the effect, then overpay another $1, etc... ?
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2013, 09:41:56 am »
+2

A thing I don't understand : Do you overpay BEFORE buying the card ? Or overpay $1, apply the effect, then overpay another $1, etc... ?
You pay before, because that is how it should work, also Donald said this on BGG.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2013, 09:42:01 am »
0

Seems like an interesting alternative to Watchtower in a Goons engine.  If you draw your whole deck, then you can buy a dozen Coppers, then overpay on a Doctor to clear them out.  Just trash your Doctor next turn to keep your engine flowing.

Alternatively, secret chamber/vault/store room could dump your junk after you draw your deck, setting them up for a Doctoring.  Or even just heavy sifting through Warehouse or Hunting Party could set this up.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 09:44:28 am by SirPeebles »
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brokoli

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2013, 09:44:02 am »
+1

It seems to combo well with navigator ! And probably scout (seriously !)
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2013, 09:47:16 am »
0

pay 10$ for it and get all the trash out of the next 7 cards. discard the ones you like to keep.

Quote
Overpay by $4 and you will look at the top card, trash it or discard it or put it back, then look at the top card again and make another choice, then a 3rd time, then a 4th time. Get it?

It says that you look at the top card and then choose, and then repeat it per extra coin, so if you hit a card you want to keep, like a Gold, then it won't trash anything. Its a little disappointing, but still a good card.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2013, 09:47:45 am »
0

What's the name a card part for? Trash the match between what you name and what you reveal? Otherwise super risky (e.g. reveal two colonies and an estate, trash the colonies).
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2013, 09:50:45 am »
0

What's the name a card part for? Trash the match between what you name and what you reveal? Otherwise super risky (e.g. reveal two colonies and an estate, trash the colonies).

Yeah.  Also, On play, you can't trash Copper, Estates, and Curses all in one go.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2013, 09:54:39 am »
0

I guess we'll need a ruling on cost reducers and overbuying at some stage.

This again looks like a high skill card. You can start to do some clever stuff if you have good awareness of your draw deck.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2013, 09:56:09 am »
+4

Goko is gonna have a tough time with whatever implementation they choose...

Hmm, overpay by.. let me just enter this with my numpad...1, click OK.
WHAT?!!? I overpaid by 11!!??!

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DStu

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2013, 09:57:14 am »
+3

I guess we'll need a ruling on cost reducers and overbuying at some stage.
Why? Doctor costs $0 at least.  You still have to spend $1 per trash/discard/putback you want to apply, no matter how many Bridges you spammed before, at least I don't see why that should be the case.  What other things needs a ruling?
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RTT

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2013, 09:57:34 am »
0

pay 10$ for it and get all the trash out of the next 7 cards. discard the ones you like to keep.

Quote
Overpay by $4 and you will look at the top card, trash it or discard it or put it back, then look at the top card again and make another choice, then a 3rd time, then a 4th time. Get it?

It says that you look at the top card and then choose, and then repeat it per extra coin, so if you hit a card you want to keep, like a Gold, then it won't trash anything. Its a little disappointing, but still a good card.
no i ment you discard what you want to keep so you can look at the next card. i mean if i overpayed by 7$ and the first card i look at is gold. i would rather discard it and look at the next than wasting my 7$
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2013, 09:57:48 am »
0

image please (for the blocked users)
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2013, 09:58:50 am »
+2

I guess we'll need a ruling on cost reducers and overbuying at some stage.

This again looks like a high skill card. You can start to do some clever stuff if you have good awareness of your draw deck.

Seems rather evident.  Cost reducers lower the cost, but never below $0.  Overpaying is about spending more than the cost.  Overpaying is not increasing the cost.  I believe the small + is just as a visual reminder that this card has an overpaying mechanic.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2013, 10:02:35 am »
0

Goko is gonna have a tough time with whatever implementation they choose...

Hmm, overpay by.. let me just enter this with my numpad...1, click OK.
WHAT?!!? I overpaid by 11!!??!

And when you do overpay by 11 and your top card turns out to be Platinum, will Goko make me put it back 11 times?  Of course, it may be worth discarding that Plat in hopes of making better use of the remaining 10 inspections.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2013, 10:04:38 am »
0

Goko is gonna have a tough time with whatever implementation they choose...

Hmm, overpay by.. let me just enter this with my numpad...1, click OK.
WHAT?!!? I overpaid by 11!!??!

Normally you don't have a gazillion options, so it could be shown in a popup. Say you have $12 and 2 buys. You press the Doctor to buy it. "Amount to pay for it: 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12". Click one of the numbers. Something like that I would imagine.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2013, 10:06:18 am »
+1

Goko is gonna have a tough time with whatever implementation they choose...

Hmm, overpay by.. let me just enter this with my numpad...1, click OK.
WHAT?!!? I overpaid by 11!!??!

Normally you don't have a gazillion options, so it could be shown in a popup. Say you have $12 and 2 buys. You press the Doctor to buy it. "Amount to pay for it: 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12". Click one of the numbers. Something like that I would imagine.

Ugh, no!  Don't even suggest a shortcut like that.  I'm feeling ill.
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RTT

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2013, 10:08:10 am »
+2

i rather think you have to click a button for every +1 you want to overpay and click [done] if you are done
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2013, 10:11:54 am »
0

I also forsee Doctor being incredible in Dark Ages games when your deck is full of Ruinses and Curses.  And if you hit any Ratses or Cultistses... you can increase your handsize during your buy phase?  I wonder if there's any reason why you'd want to do that... shuffle quicker?
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2013, 10:13:29 am »
0

I guess we'll need a ruling on cost reducers and overbuying at some stage.

Also, Donald again.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2013, 10:15:23 am »
+1

question: if i overpay for it and then reveal a trader. do i get the effect? because it is on buy. i am not sure i would say yes.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2013, 10:16:28 am »
0

Great for trashing curses, not great for trashing ruins--unless you somehow know which one you have coming up in your deck.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2013, 10:17:45 am »
+5

I also forsee Doctor being incredible in Dark Ages games when your deck is full of Ruinses and Curses.  And if you hit any Ratses or Cultistses... you can increase your handsize during your buy phase?  I wonder if there's any reason why you'd want to do that... shuffle quicker?

Play ten Goons.  Develop a $4 card into a Watchtower and Cultist, topdecking the Watchtower first.  Buy a Doctor, overpaying by $1 to trash the Cultist, thereby drawing your Watchtower into hand.  Now buy up all the stuffs with Watchtower in hand to trash the Coppers/Curses/Ruins.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2013, 10:18:28 am »
+2

question: if i overpay for it and then reveal a trader. do i get the effect? because it is on buy. i am not sure i would say yes.

Yes.  You still bought it and overpaid for it.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2013, 10:19:36 am »
0

Great for trashing curses, not great for trashing ruins--unless you somehow know which one you have coming up in your deck.

Great for trashing Ruins on the overpay.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2013, 10:20:36 am »
0

you can increase your handsize during your buy phase?  I wonder if there's any reason why you'd want to do that... shuffle quicker?
1. Reveal Rats and trash it
2. Discard Market Square to gain a Gold
3. Draw Market Square
4. Repeat
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2013, 10:23:47 am »
0

This could potentially be a really nice counter to top-of-the-deck attacks. Sea Hag is substantially less brutal since you can trash that Curse. Rabble risks becoming helpful to your opponent because it nicely puts those Estates on the top of the deck where the Doctor can find them.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2013, 10:24:57 am »
+1

I also forsee Doctor being incredible in Dark Ages games when your deck is full of Ruinses and Curses.  And if you hit any Ratses or Cultistses... you can increase your handsize during your buy phase?  I wonder if there's any reason why you'd want to do that... shuffle quicker?

play a village, buy the doctor in the black market for $10, trash some fortress and cultist !
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2013, 10:30:53 am »
0

I can see the utility of the overpay effect. I predict it'll be especially nice when you get a very front-loaded shuffle early-mid-game. All your good stuff is in your first hand and your next few hands will be crap. Buy a Doctor for $8 and trash a bunch of those cards while simultaneously hastening your next shuffle.

The on-play effect looks fantastically weak to me. If you know what's on your deck, maybe it's OK. But even then it's a terminal Action that does nothing for your current hand (barring on-trash effects). Hermit seems worlds better in terms of trashing non-Copper junk.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2013, 10:31:00 am »
0

I'm interested in the timing, given the "when you buy this" wording.  I can see that you need to overpay all at once, but it seems that overpaying is triggered by buying, so can you resolve other "when buy" effects first?  For instance, if I have Haggler in play, may I gain a cheaper card before choosing how much to overpay?  Potentially, I will choose to gain a Squire off Haggler, trash it to Watchtower for a Knight, and then I would make my decision regarding overpayment based on whether I want to buy the next Knight.  Alternatively, I would trash Squire into Cultist into drawing 3 cards, and make my overpayment decision based on which cards were drawn.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2013, 10:33:24 am »
+1

I'm interested in the timing, given the "when you buy this" wording.  I can see that you need to overpay all at once, but it seems that overpaying is triggered by buying, so can you resolve other "when buy" effects first?  For instance, if I have Haggler in play, may I gain a cheaper card before choosing how much to overpay?  Potentially, I will choose to gain a Squire off Haggler, trash it to Watchtower for a Knight, and then I would make my decision regarding overpayment based on whether I want to buy the next Knight.  Alternatively, I would trash Squire into Cultist into drawing 3 cards, and make my overpayment decision based on which cards were drawn.

Good question. I just asked it over at BGG.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2013, 10:35:49 am »
+2

This could potentially be a really nice counter to top-of-the-deck attacks. Sea Hag is substantially less brutal since you can trash that Curse. Rabble risks becoming helpful to your opponent because it nicely puts those Estates on the top of the deck where the Doctor can find them.
Not only this but (at the risk of stating the obvious) you don't even need to own a Doctor yet, or have it in hand, to do these things. Much stronger than Lookout this way.

It reminds me of Noble Brigand, being able to react to your opponent's moves as quickly as this. I guess it wouldn't be Dominion if there were too much of this, but it will be fun having a little more.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2013, 10:42:07 am »
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I can see the utility of the overpay effect. I predict it'll be especially nice when you get a very front-loaded shuffle early-mid-game. All your good stuff is in your first hand and your next few hands will be crap. Buy a Doctor for $8 and trash a bunch of those cards while simultaneously hastening your next shuffle.

The on-play effect looks fantastically weak to me. If you know what's on your deck, maybe it's OK. But even then it's a terminal Action that does nothing for your current hand (barring on-trash effects). Hermit seems worlds better in terms of trashing non-Copper junk.

The on-play won't be good for trashing non-Copper cards, but that's not the point -- I think Doctor will be strongest at the start of the game, mostly for trashing Copper. It's much more comparable to something like Spice Merchant than Hermit.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2013, 10:43:33 am »
+1

I can see the utility of the overpay effect. I predict it'll be especially nice when you get a very front-loaded shuffle early-mid-game. All your good stuff is in your first hand and your next few hands will be crap. Buy a Doctor for $8 and trash a bunch of those cards while simultaneously hastening your next shuffle.

The on-play effect looks fantastically weak to me. If you know what's on your deck, maybe it's OK. But even then it's a terminal Action that does nothing for your current hand (barring on-trash effects). Hermit seems worlds better in terms of trashing non-Copper junk.

The on-play won't be good for trashing non-Copper cards, but that's not the point -- I think Doctor will be strongest at the start of the game, mostly for trashing Copper. It's much more comparable to something like Spice Merchant than Hermit.

Fair enough, but it's also much, much worse than Spice Merchant for trashing Copper.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2013, 10:50:10 am »
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But I think if you pay $5 for doctor in the first turn, you may not have $2 next turn.

If you pay $5 for Doctor on T1, you are guaranteed at least $2 or Doctor next turn, and usually more than that. The only way you get just $2 is if all three Estates are on the bottom (so Doctor trashes Copper-Copper, and you draw the Estates).


This could potentially be a really nice counter to top-of-the-deck attacks. Sea Hag is substantially less brutal since you can trash that Curse. Rabble risks becoming helpful to your opponent because it nicely puts those Estates on the top of the deck where the Doctor can find them.
Not only this but (at the risk of stating the obvious) you don't even need to own a Doctor yet, or have it in hand, to do these things. Much stronger than Lookout this way.

The significant downside vs. Lookout is that it's terminal. Terminal Lookout would be a never-buy. Obviously this doesn't apply to the on-buy, but it is important for playing the card.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2013, 10:52:23 am »
+1

Weird art on this card.

I presume that is half of the patient's face we can see near the bottom left of the picture.... then moving up the left hand side of the image we see something that looks vaguely like a limp left hand lying on a dark green sheet.... then we see.... what? A knee sticking up under the sheet...? Yes it is a knee, let's just stick with that shall we...?

.... and the doctor is saying, "I'll just grind up a few more of these little blue pills for you"....

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2013, 10:52:43 am »
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Fair enough, but it's also much, much worse than Spice Merchant for trashing Copper.

Something something Warehouse's existence means Cellar is bad.

Doctor really does occupy a different niche than Spice Merchant. Spice Merchant is money trashing, like Moneylender. Doctor is (on play) weak trashing and (on buy) mediocre early game trashing and/or top-deck manipulation. Doctor has a couple of advantages over Spice Merchant: trashing anything, trashing multiple cards, cycling, and being able to get the effect in the shuffle that you buy the Doctor. Oh yeah, and Doctor only costs $3 if you just want the on play effect.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 10:58:00 am by philosophyguy »
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2013, 10:56:14 am »
+2

Weird art on this card.

I presume that is half of the patient's face we can see near the bottom left of the picture.... then moving up the left hand side of the image we see something that looks vaguely like a limp left hand lying on a dark green sheet.... then we see.... what? A knee sticking up under the sheet...? Yes it is a knee, let's just stick with that shall we...?

.... and the doctor is saying, "I'll just grind up a few more of these little blue pills for you"....

To me it looks like he's decided to whip out one of his pokemon.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2013, 11:03:30 am »
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This is one of those cards that if you are good at tracking your deck will be brutal. The on-buy effect is where the real power is. But, as a terminal trasher, it's okay but nothing spectacular, but the on-buy ability makes up for that. Imagine those engine games where you have $20 floating around but some junk that makes you unable to play your entire deck. Blam! This card can take care of that for you.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2013, 11:06:55 am »
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I wonder if it's ever worth it to buy this with $4 on turn 1. You trash the top estate or copper, yay, but you trigger a reshuffle without your $3 buy. But the doctor speeds up reshuffles in the early game any way so maybe that's not such a big deal?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2013, 11:08:40 am »
+1

I'm interested in the timing, given the "when you buy this" wording.  I can see that you need to overpay all at once, but it seems that overpaying is triggered by buying, so can you resolve other "when buy" effects first?  For instance, if I have Haggler in play, may I gain a cheaper card before choosing how much to overpay?  Potentially, I will choose to gain a Squire off Haggler, trash it to Watchtower for a Knight, and then I would make my decision regarding overpayment based on whether I want to buy the next Knight.  Alternatively, I would trash Squire into Cultist into drawing 3 cards, and make my overpayment decision based on which cards were drawn.

Good question. I just asked it over at BGG.

He replied:

Quote from: Donald X.
Overpay is a when-buy trigger; the current player decides how to order multiple such triggers, and so can put either Haggler or the overpay first.

However, Doctor costs $3, regardless of how much you overpay; if you pay $10 for Doctor with Haggler in play, Haggler will gain you a card costing less than $3.

And just noticed that you asked the follow up I had in mind.  By the way, it can matter with current cards as in my obscure example involving Doctor, Haggler, Watchtower, Squire, and Knights/Cultist.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 11:13:08 am by SirPeebles »
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2013, 11:16:14 am »
+1

Simulator results (it's kind of slow here at work):

Stupid Doctor beats Lookout 54-41 on a $4/$3 opening. (Stupid because he will not do any deck tracking) Lookout BM isn't a viable deck of course, but it should give you an idea of the power level. If there's interest I might implement Smart Doctor :)
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2013, 11:23:55 am »
0

Weird art on this card.

I presume that is half of the patient's face we can see near the bottom left of the picture.... then moving up the left hand side of the image we see something that looks vaguely like a limp left hand lying on a dark green sheet.... then we see.... what? A knee sticking up under the sheet...? Yes it is a knee, let's just stick with that shall we...?

.... and the doctor is saying, "I'll just grind up a few more of these little blue pills for you"....

My first thought was a woman in labor.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2013, 11:24:34 am »
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Quote from: Donald X.
Overpaying is part of the resolution of the overpay ability, so you don't do it until it's time to resolve it. You put Haggler and Doctor's overpay in some order; when it's time to resolve the overpay, you choose how much to overpay, then start flipping over cards.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2013, 11:24:43 am »
0

Stupid Doctor beats Lookout 54-41 on a $4/$3 opening. (Stupid because he will not do any deck tracking) Lookout BM isn't a viable deck of course, but it should give you an idea of the power level. If there's interest I might implement Smart Doctor :)

This is still somewhat skewed for the Stupid Doctor because Lookouts +1Action does not have any effect.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2013, 11:26:56 am »
0

Simulator results (it's kind of slow here at work):

Stupid Doctor beats Lookout 54-41 on a $4/$3 opening. (Stupid because he will not do any deck tracking) Lookout BM isn't a viable deck of course, but it should give you an idea of the power level. If there's interest I might implement Smart Doctor :)

What decisions does stupid doctor make concerning overpaying and card naming?
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2013, 11:33:03 am »
+1

I feel like now Leo can do some nice Rube Goldbergs involving topdecking with Watchtower and trashing with Doctor.  (And then Cillian Murphy can chime in.)

Notably, this is an interesting Swindler target because the on-buy effect is the big benefit, and it's a terminal action.  You could spam your opponents with Doctors, then he'd have to start Doctoring the Doctors away.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2013, 11:41:55 am »
+1

Looks like a decent card for a 6/2 open.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2013, 11:55:49 am »
0



If you pay $5 for Doctor on T1, you are guaranteed at least $2 or Doctor next turn, and usually more than that. The only way you get just $2 is if all three Estates are on the bottom (so Doctor trashes Copper-Copper, and you draw the Estates).



I think this is incorrect. Imagine you pay 5 for Doctor and trash two coppers. You discard your hand, draw 2 estates, and shuffle. You have 6 cards to shuffle into a new draw deck, but only 5 are coppers. This can result in you drawing EEEDocC. At this point you are pretty much screwed, if you trash 3 coppers, you need to buy one to buy silver, but even then you are trying to hit 3 coppers out of a 7 card deck in a 5 card hand. This isn't as bad as Mint/Copper openings (as you can trash Estates), but it is pretty bad. Thankfully, this will be exceedingly rare.

I can foresee some fun shenanigans with T3 - T5 Doctor overbuys. For instance say I get to Salvage a Peddler on T5, that can get me 11 coin pretty easy so Doc gets to kill upwards of 8 cards. You pretty much go instantly to an ultra-lean Peddler  deck and you can ditch the Doc for Salvage. Likewise, I haven't gamed it, but I think with shuffle luck Doc/Bish might be near Chap/Bish in setup speed for a Golden Deck. I do wonder how easily you can set up the "trash everything you don't want" mechanic for a quick engine setup. E.g. something like Tr/Death cart can just blow away your deck and as long as you have an action silver, you can build out quick from there.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2013, 12:07:43 pm »
0

Coin tokens and overpay seems like more of a nombo than a combo to me.  Both give you a way of solving the 7$ hand problem, but you can't use both of them to fix a 7$ hand at the same time.
Am I missing something here?
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2013, 12:09:47 pm »
+2

Weird thought, what about a Mandarin/Doctor opening? It mitigates Mandarin's speed problems (though not as compared to other Doctor openings), it mitigates the economic costs of Doctor's early Copper trashing, and if necessary you can combo the topdecking ability with Doctor trashing. Getting rid of the Copper is also great for later use of the Mandarin on-buy ability, though that's probably a separate question.

Coin tokens and overpay seems like more of a nombo than a combo to me.  Both give you a way of solving the 7$ hand problem, but you can't use both of them to fix a 7$ hand at the same time.
Am I missing something here?
I generally agree. I think the thing you could theoretically be missing is the ability to hoard Coin tokens and buy a $15 Doctor, but I'm not so sure if that's worth doing.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 12:24:47 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #67 on: June 04, 2013, 12:13:04 pm »
0

Coin tokens and overpay seems like more of a nombo than a combo to me.  Both give you a way of solving the 7$ hand problem, but you can't use both of them to fix a 7$ hand at the same time.
Am I missing something here?

I'm guessing the overpay abilities will be useful enough that you'll often be willing to spend some coin tokens to pump them up.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #68 on: June 04, 2013, 12:21:32 pm »
+5

I think people are underestimating the on-play effect.  IMO, Lookout is nice mostly because it trashes cards not in hand.  You can play Lookout to trash and still have $3 or $4 to buy a Silver or something else.  Sometimes the +action on Lookout is helpful, but early game you have few actions anyway.  Hermit is decent trashing again because it can trash cards not in hand, but its drawback is that it can't touch treasure cards.

Doctor is clearly an early game trasher.  And yes, people are pointing out that it doesn't help your current turn, but they are omitting that it also does not kill the current turn either.  When I play Chapel or even Steward to trash, I'm probably not buying anything afterwards.  But I can probably play Doctor and still buy something.

Doctor should also be a faster trasher than Steward and, I think, Lookout.  With minimal deck tracking (especially early game, when there's not that much to track yet) you should be able to get rid of Coppers and Estates pretty quickly, even without overpaying.  So the trashing should be close to on-par with Steward while also providing early game cycling.

After the deck is trimmed, it does not have the same utility as Steward but it is still better than Lookout.  You can still hunt for stray Coppers, Estates, Curses and (less ably) Ruins without worry of having to trash good cards.  As a small bonus, it is self deck-inspection, which can be nice for Mystic or Wishing Well (though you'd need a village first).
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #69 on: June 04, 2013, 12:22:28 pm »
0

Weird thought, what about a Mandarin/Doctor opening? It mitigates Mandarin's speed problems (though not as compared to other Doctor openings), it mitigates the economic costs of Doctor's early Copper trashing, and if necessary you can combo the topdecking ability with Doctor trashing. Getting rid of the Copper is also great for later use of the Mandarin on-buy ability, though that's probably a separate question.

I guess if you buy Mandarin first (say you drew 5 copper), you topdeck 5 copper and draw them next turn, buy a Doctor for 3+3, trashing 3 of the remaining 2 copper and 3 estates, and you're still left with 6 copper and 1 estate or 5 copper and 2 estates.  If you buy doctor first, then you could at most trash 3 cards (with a 5 copper + coin token opening), and if you're lucky they're all estates.  Then you can buy a Mandarin second turn if you don't draw the doctor.  But then you wouldn't draw the doctor again, because the next turn you'd draw 5 copper.  I guess you'd move on with a buy and play the doctor next turn hoping to kill 3 copper.

I'm not sure it works as an opening.  Though playing a Mandarin (and a copper) to buy a doctor does let you trash the card you put back, that seems kind of slow, and you're really just replacing the card on your deck with a doctor in the discard pile.

Maybe I'm thinking of it incorrectly.

Edit: Fixed count.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 12:26:43 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #70 on: June 04, 2013, 12:25:35 pm »
0

Crossposting from another forum. There's a truly absurd scenario that will occur once per 120 player-games with Doctor available, assuming the player buys it.

With Doctor available, you will get this setup in 1/40 games:
0: draw CCCCC
1: Buy Doctor, trash 2 Estate.

Now, if you're lucky, it continues as follows (1/3 of the time)
1: ... draw CCE[shuffle]CD
2: Play Doctor, name Copper, trash 3 Copper, buy Silver

Deck after turn 2: Doctor, Estate, 4xCopper, Silver ($6 in 7 cards with additional trashing potential). On turn 3, you will almost certainly get either a $5 buy or trash an Estate or 1-2 Copper. Possibly both. That's obscene.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2013, 12:27:59 pm »
0

Crossposting from another forum. There's a truly absurd scenario that will occur once per 120 player-games with Doctor available, assuming the player buys it.

With Doctor available, you will get this setup in 1/40 games:
0: draw CCCCC
1: Buy Doctor, trash 2 Estate.

Now, if you're lucky, it continues as follows (1/3 of the time)
1: ... draw CCE[shuffle]CD
2: Play Doctor, name Copper, trash 3 Copper, buy Silver

Deck after turn 2: Doctor, Estate, 4xCopper, Silver ($6 in 7 cards with additional trashing potential). On turn 3, you will almost certainly get either a $5 buy or trash an Estate or 1-2 Copper. Possibly both. That's obscene.

Throw in a coin token on t1 so that you can trash all 3 Estates before your first reshuffle.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2013, 12:35:28 pm »
+24

And now for today's installment of But How Does This Combo With Scout?

Unfortunately, Scout does not combo with Doctor. Sorry, friends. This is deeply surprising and unfortunate, breaking a streak of combos that began with Cultist, Sage, and Feodum in the original Dark Ages previews and continued up until yesterday with Baker. But unlike Ruined Market, or Pillage, or Squire, Doctor just doesn't combo with Scout. Why?

Scout is too strong. Sorry.

When you play Scout, you draw all your Estates into your hand, so you can't trash them with Doctor! Scout is just too good at sifting and drawing for you to worry too much about trashing.

Doctor has to give you some reward for overpaying for it, to entice you to buy it. Ha, that's truly hilarious! With Scout, you commonly overpay for it by $6 or $7 money just to make sure you win the Scout split. No extra benefit necessary.

So instead of suggesting a Doctor/Scout combo, let me just take this opportunity to tell you all about a different combo, Scout/Scout. Which is now a possible opening thanks to Baker! Imagine that, on whatever percentage of boards that Baker and Scout are both present, the game is over on Turn 2.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2013, 12:37:12 pm »
+1

Crossposting from another forum. There's a truly absurd scenario that will occur once per 120 player-games with Doctor available, assuming the player buys it.

With Doctor available, you will get this setup in 1/40 games:
0: draw CCCCC
1: Buy Doctor, trash 2 Estate.

Now, if you're lucky, it continues as follows (1/3 of the time)
1: ... draw CCE[shuffle]CD
2: Play Doctor, name Copper, trash 3 Copper, buy Silver

Deck after turn 2: Doctor, Estate, 4xCopper, Silver ($6 in 7 cards with additional trashing potential). On turn 3, you will almost certainly get either a $5 buy or trash an Estate or 1-2 Copper. Possibly both. That's obscene.

Throw in a coin token on t1 so that you can trash all 3 Estates before your first reshuffle.

That brings the odds down even further (to 1/200 rather than 1/120). But let's take it a step further and play with Shelters...

I denote coin tokens by $

0: draw CCCCC
1: spend $, buy Doctor, trash Hovel Necropolis Overgrown Estate, draw Copper; draw C[shuffle]CCCD
2: play Doctor, name Copper, trash 3xCopper, buy Silver [or $4]; draw [shuffle]SCCCD

After two turns, your deck is six cards: 4 Copper, Doctor, and Silver.

Of note, this works just as well without Shelters, but Shelters move the odds from 1/200 to 1/180.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2013, 12:38:23 pm »
+10

And now for today's installment of But How Does This Combo With Scout?

Unfortunately, Scout does not combo with Doctor. Sorry, friends. This is deeply surprising and unfortunate, breaking a streak of combos that began with Cultist, Sage, and Feodum in the original Dark Ages previews and continued up until yesterday with Baker. But unlike Ruined Market, or Pillage, or Squire, Doctor just doesn't combo with Scout. Why?

Scout is too strong. Sorry.

When you play Scout, you draw all your Estates into your hand, so you can't trash them with Doctor! Scout is just too good at sifting and drawing for you to worry too much about trashing.

Doctor has to give you some reward for overpaying for it, to entice you to buy it. Ha, that's truly hilarious! With Scout, you commonly overpay for it by $6 or $7 money just to make sure you win the Scout split. No extra benefit necessary.

So instead of suggesting a Doctor/Scout combo, let me just take this opportunity to tell you all about a different combo, Scout/Scout. Which is now a possible opening thanks to Baker! Imagine that, on whatever percentage of boards that Baker and Scout are both present, the game is over on Turn 2.

I disagree. Scout removes the Estates from the top of your deck, allowing Doctor to trash Copper, which in turn increases the density of Estates for Scout to pick up! The two feed into each other perfectly.
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Robz888

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #75 on: June 04, 2013, 12:41:29 pm »
+5

And now for today's installment of But How Does This Combo With Scout?

Unfortunately, Scout does not combo with Doctor. Sorry, friends. This is deeply surprising and unfortunate, breaking a streak of combos that began with Cultist, Sage, and Feodum in the original Dark Ages previews and continued up until yesterday with Baker. But unlike Ruined Market, or Pillage, or Squire, Doctor just doesn't combo with Scout. Why?

Scout is too strong. Sorry.

When you play Scout, you draw all your Estates into your hand, so you can't trash them with Doctor! Scout is just too good at sifting and drawing for you to worry too much about trashing.

Doctor has to give you some reward for overpaying for it, to entice you to buy it. Ha, that's truly hilarious! With Scout, you commonly overpay for it by $6 or $7 money just to make sure you win the Scout split. No extra benefit necessary.

So instead of suggesting a Doctor/Scout combo, let me just take this opportunity to tell you all about a different combo, Scout/Scout. Which is now a possible opening thanks to Baker! Imagine that, on whatever percentage of boards that Baker and Scout are both present, the game is over on Turn 2.

I disagree. Scout removes the Estates from the top of your deck, allowing Doctor to trash Copper, which in turn increases the density of Estates for Scout to pick up! The two feed into each other perfectly.

That's true, but you have to consider opportunity cost (something that separates the good players from the great players, really). Every time you buy a Doctor, you almost could have bought a Scout instead.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2013, 12:45:30 pm »
0

I tried checking for the new preview on my way home. All I got to see before my phone shut down was that card name.
These are the guesses I made what it would do based on the limited information I had (in the order i made them)
1) Trashes cards for coin tokens
2) I realized we would rather get the overpaying mechanic today. So overpaying to trash cards.
3) Might be some apothecary variant as well.

2) turned out to be quite close, but I thought it would trash from hand. It also a bit like apothecary, in interacting with the top of your deck.

I think it might be a stronger trasher than people give it credit for. Not needing to have the cards you wanna trash in hand is kinda huge. It should be able to clear out coppers quite fast.

I'm now convinced CC will empty the supply turn 3.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #77 on: June 04, 2013, 12:47:42 pm »
+4

Also, anyone remember me saying that if overpaying worked liked it does, that would be to similar to Hinterlands and therefore boring? I was wrong.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2013, 12:51:14 pm »
+3

I'm now waiting for the card where you overpay to get coin tokens.
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timchen

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2013, 01:12:33 pm »
0

The balance between the on buy and the on play effect is a bit weird. I feel the on play effect is too weak. Similar to lookout, the on play effect is more useful in engines but then being terminal is a huge negative.

On the other hand this is probably the first trashing card which simply excels at trashing curses. Maybe the on play part is nerfed to make it more situational?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2013, 01:33:49 pm »
0

I'm now waiting for the card where you overpay to get coin tokens.

Me too.

With that said, already the first two cards change the opening turns which I find to be pretty awesome. I think spending $6 on Doctor on the first turn can be very powerful, that's practically using Chapels ability on turn 1 and then being able to change what you end up drawing for turn 2.
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joel88s

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2013, 01:35:25 pm »
0

Quote from: Donald X.
Overpay is a when-buy trigger; the current player decides how to order multiple such triggers, and so can put either Haggler or the overpay first.

However, Doctor costs $3, regardless of how much you overpay; if you pay $10 for Doctor with Haggler in play, Haggler will gain you a card costing less than $3.

For questions like this it strikes me that 'overpay' is a very slight misnomer, in that it seems the extra money you pay doesn't affect the Doctor at all, he's always a $3 card who does what he does. Then in addition, he has an on-buy effect: when you buy Doctor you may now pay x coins to trash/discard/putback your top card x number of times. The fact that his on-buy and on-play effects are both trashers is strictly speaking coincidental, though of course very thematic.

This is not a criticism at all: overpay is a nice, concise term for this on-buy flex-pay-for-effect mechanic (see how that doesn't have the same ring?) I'm just thinking that separating the two payments in one's mind would be useful for interpretation questions.
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Davio

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2013, 01:41:10 pm »
+1

I have to mention this song with great lyrics:
Kool Moe Doe - Go See The Doctor

Thinking about this card, my conclusion is best said with the following statement: Still worse than Chapel.

The on-buy effect is weak, I mean, a trasher is best bought on turn 1 or 2, we all know that. Some we permit ourselves to get later, like Upgrade/JD, because they simply cost 5, but they're not terminal. So you'll likely get this on t1 or t2 at which points you don't have much money to overspend on it.

Okay, if you have 4/3 and want to get Silver anyway, you can spend the 4 on it and hope to trash an Estate, that's pretty much it though. The trashing of the matches also dwindles fast. You're lucky if you can get 3 Coppers in early. So if you trash 2 Coppers, congratulations, you've just played a (sort of) Steward without options and have to put back an Estate.

All in all I think this card is pretty weak. It's weak because the on-buy doesn't help a lot and because the on-play is generally worse than other cards in this category, namely: Lookout, Steward, Chapel, Ambassador, which are all at that price point.

Its only advantage is that it trashes multiple cards from your deck, leaving you with money in your current hand as opposed to the regular trashers. But if you have this in your current deck, you already have 1 less economy card and as always, there's no guarantee that the trashable cards are on your deck instead of in your hand.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 01:43:24 pm by Davio »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2013, 01:55:03 pm »
+1

Davio, I believe another perk that you're omitting is that the on-buy happens immediately, so perhaps before your reshuffle.  Chapel doesn't begin trashing until turn 3.  With a 5/2 opening, you could overpay for a Doctor to trash two of your next five cards.  Since 60% of those are Estates, you have a decent chance not only of trashing an Estate or two before you ever draw them, but in doing so you open the doorway to an effective 5/3 or even 5/4 opening.  In fact, I believe you would have a 30% chance of trashing two Estates on turn 1.

If we really push the edge cases, there is the extreme example of Baker being present, having a 5/2 opening, and then overpaying with $6 on a Doctor, trashing all 3 of your Estates and then drawing 5 Coppers as your t2 hand.

Edit:  With Shelters and a 5/2 opening, there is a chance that one of the two Shelters you trash will be the Overgrown Estate, and then it will draw the third Shelter, leaving you with a decent chance of $5 again on turn 2.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 02:00:34 pm by SirPeebles »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2013, 02:43:53 pm »
0

If I have coin tokens, I think how much I overspend on Doctor is going to have a lot to do with how many cards are left in my deck. I imagine a lot of the time I'll want to avoid triggering a reshuffle until after that turn's buy. Unless of course I don't want my new Doctor in my deck or I have a bunch of dead cards in my hand. Hmm…
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2013, 04:22:13 pm »
+3

And now for today's installment of But How Does This Combo With Scout?

(+13)

Scout jokes:  Not the only way to get respect, but certainly the best way.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #86 on: June 04, 2013, 04:24:20 pm »
+3

I don't understand why you guys all think the overspend is the powerful part of the card. It *can't* be. I mean, if it's just a weak card to have, you're almost never going to buy it. At 3, you've bought a weak card - not good. At 4, you've replaced a card from your deck (not even the worst, but a random; you do get to keep it if it's good, but then you've just done exactly what you'd do at 3, which was weak for 3) with a weak card - not good for 4. At 5, you've gotten rid of 2 cards and gained a weak one - REALLY weak for 5. And it's just basically never worth it until you're at like 20 and somehow didn't have buys and need trashing even though you managed to get a ton of money already. So if the play effect is bad, it's just a bad card.

Fortunately, I don't think the play effect is bad. I'll admit that at first I missed the 'name a card' and thought it just trashed any duplicates in the top 3 cards. I'm actually not sure which one of those is stronger, I guess probably this way is, but whatever. I think this is a pretty strong early trasher. The nice point is that it clears your deck out while still giving you a 4 card hand to buy some piece on this turn, which is a pretty huge boon compared to the likes of something like chapel. On the other hand, it's probably a little slower - I have to imagine that most of the time, you're hitting 2 cards - and it has some downside. And like chapel, it's pretty dead later in the game (well, this can re-order the top three cards of your deck, which, say it with me, is almostabout half as good as a scout terminal scout). where does this put it? Well, it's hard to say. Probably, this is worse than ambassador and steward for me, roughly on the level of chapel and remake. Hrm, probably objectively a hair below them.

Other notes: one of the key weaknesses here is that it can't trash cards in your hand, so it does not do so well at keeping an engine deck clean as almost any other trasher. It will thin you and get you going faster than most anything else, but it just has very bad staying power especially in the face of junking.

It does quite poorly against ruins, as you have to name the right one.
It gobs up rats, true, but how often will you have both?


Opening math:
Let's say you open with this on $5, turn 1. Well, presumably you will trash both cards that pop up. There's a 30% chance of hitting estate-estate, after which you're in GREAT shape. There's a 60% chance of getting estate-copper, which puts you in pretty good shape (probably). And there's a 10% chance of hitting copper-copper, after which things look pretty bad indeed. Then T2, you have whatever 3 cards you didn't trash, plus a copper and either another copper (2/3 chance) or the doctor (1/3 chance). The problem you might have here is just getting the doctor with estates. Well, more on that in a second, but while this spread of options is good, you have to ask whether it's better than opening with whatever premium 5 is on the board? Sometimes, I expect yes, but random guess I would say 60% of the time, no.

Actually, let's say you opened Nothing/doctor-for-3 (okay, you never do this, but I am making a point here). What card are you going to name when it comes around? If you draw it with 3 estates, I assume you name copper and trash three, your doctor will come around soon enough, you ought to be able to chow estates, and you can start building some 3s up. If you draw it with no estates, very easy, name estate, and you are in amazingly good shape. With one estate, again you probably name estate even though there are more coppers left in your deck. Hmm, this one is close, and probably good either way. But the worst is if you get it with 2 estates. You can't buy anything, if you name copper, you ensure you'll draw that next estate, and you might trash yourself down to copper and 3 estate and doctor (reasonably high chance of this), which is really not somewhere I think you want to be. Now, I assume that having the other card you normally will is going to make this a lot more palatable, but it's a consideration. 

Kuildeous

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2013, 04:25:33 pm »
+7

And now for today's installment of But How Does This Combo With Scout?

(+13)

Scout jokes:  Not the only way to get respect, but certainly the best way.

Why did the Scout cross the road?

To put chicken in your hand



I may have just proven you wrong.
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DG

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2013, 04:32:31 pm »
0

Maybe the doctor will like potions.
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liopoil

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #89 on: June 04, 2013, 04:35:43 pm »
0

Maybe the doctor will like potions.
doctor-scyring pool combo? doctor clears out all the non-action cards fast for you? I guess that could be said for other strong trashers too, but this one is especially fast in that you can trash stuff on T1 or 2.
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DStu

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #90 on: June 04, 2013, 04:37:26 pm »
0

I don't understand why you guys all think the overspend is the powerful part of the card.
I don't think it's really bad, but it's comparable to Lookout. Probably a bit better in midgame, and depending on the board a bit stronger or weaker in the beginning (ignoring on-buy). There are games where you want Lookout, but it's not a very powerful card, and I came from the impression of people stating that the play effect is very strong, which I just don't believe.
You can trash Coppers quite fast, but that leaves you with a weak deck. It has the benefit over other Coppertrasher that it also trashes Estates, but it's weaker in that and you probably should start trashing Coppers because of probability.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2013, 04:39:38 pm »
+4

Why did the Scout cross the road?

To fail to put chicken in your hand

Fixed that for you.
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liopoil

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #92 on: June 04, 2013, 04:43:17 pm »
0

chicken is totally a victory card!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #93 on: June 04, 2013, 04:51:52 pm »
+1

WW, I really like your analysis of an opening Doctor. I'd like to talk about a mid-game Doctor, because whether or not buying a Doctor for $6 or $10 is a good idea, there will certainly be the perception that it's a good idea and Donald even suggests doing so right in the preview.

Specifically, let's talk about a Curse slog. Now getting to $8 in such a slog is difficult enough (although possibly easier with coin tokens). Do you think it might be worth spending your first $8 or $9 hand on a Doctor, rather than a Province? After all, you're probably going to end up trashing 3 to 4 bad cards and you're getting a card that at least has a pretty good shot at helping to further thin your deck of Curses. I could see that being a good investment.

Perhaps Doctor is what newbies always want Chapel to be—a card that you can buy after your deck is bogged down with Curses to help you clean them out.
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soulnet

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #94 on: June 04, 2013, 04:56:49 pm »
0

Perhaps Doctor is what newbies always want Chapel to be—a card that you can buy after your deck is bogged down with Curses to help you clean them out.

That sounds perfectly coherent with the name. In the Chapel, on the other hand, you pray to avoid being cursed.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #95 on: June 04, 2013, 04:57:19 pm »
0

Yeah, it confused me a bit that Donald suggested you'd want to buy it for 10, because that didn't seem good to me. But Donald probably knows.
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liopoil

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2013, 05:02:12 pm »
0

so, two mechanics right, and 13 cards? do we think that ALL the cards will either relate to coin tokens or overpay? I'd think there's at least 3 of each, but there's probably some that are only related on a tangent. Examples could be remake, fortune teller, or jester from cornucopia, or herbalist from alchemy. (since we're talking about small expansions).

Oh, and did we ever find out what's up with the extra 7 cards?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2013, 05:04:09 pm »
0

so, two mechanics right, and 13 cards? do we think that ALL the cards will either relate to coin tokens or overpay? I'd think there's at least 3 of each, but there's probably some that are only related on a tangent. Examples could be remake, fortune teller, or jester from cornucopia, or herbalist from alchemy. (since we're talking about small expansions).

Oh, and did we ever find out what's up with the extra 7 cards?

They're blanks. Unless there are Victory cards in the set, of course. Then only some of them are blanks.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2013, 05:06:50 pm »
+9

I am hoping that three of them are to make the Baker pile have 13 cards.
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joel88s

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2013, 05:26:24 pm »
0

So instead of suggesting a Doctor/Scout combo, let me just take this opportunity to tell you all about a different combo, Scout/Scout. Which is now a possible opening thanks to Baker! Imagine that, on whatever percentage of boards that Baker and Scout are both present, the game is over on Turn 2.
Indeed it is.
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RD

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #100 on: June 04, 2013, 05:27:10 pm »
0

The on-buy effect is weak, I mean, a trasher is best bought on turn 1 or 2, we all know that. Some we permit ourselves to get later, like Upgrade/JD, because they simply cost 5, but they're not terminal. So you'll likely get this on t1 or t2 at which points you don't have much money to overspend on it.
Most trashers are best bought on t1-t2 because that's what allows them to start trashing on t3-t4, which is really good. With Doctor, if you overpay on t1 then you are trashing on t1. It seems natural to assume that if t3 trashing is good then t1 trashing must be even better, but given that Copper is still valuable at this stage and you're likely to trash some here, maybe you do as well if you just wait.

We don't actually have much to go on here. We have Mint, which supports my point but of course that's a very extreme case. (As a sidenote, it strikes me that Mint gets a lot better in Baker games where you can buy it with CCCC+coin. That's fun.)

Spice Merchant is (in my humble opinion) a notable example of a trasher that is sometimes better to buy on t3 instead of t1, and I think it's a comparison worth making. Why can you get away with buying a strong $4 opener and picking up a Spice Merchant later? First, it's fast enough that t3 isn't simply too late to do any good. Second, it doesn't ruin your current hand, so you don't mind that it's still continuing its work throughout the mid- and even end-game. Doctor spoils your hand a little more than SM but less than most trashers (and arguably makes up for this by filtering). And it can be faster or slower than SM, depending how much you overpay and what cards you name (and also depending on luck).
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 05:33:34 pm by RD »
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liopoil

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #101 on: June 04, 2013, 05:32:10 pm »
0

(As a sidenote, it strikes me that Mint gets a lot better in Baker games where you can buy it with CCCC+coin. That's fun.)
And you can buy it with 5C on T1 and then buy a 3-cost with coin token on T2, which can sometimes be better.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2013, 05:33:32 pm »
+1

We don't actually have much to go on here. Mint, which supports my point but of course that's a very extreme case. (As a sidenote, it strikes me that Mint gets a lot better in Baker games where you can buy it with CCCC+coin. That's fun.)

I think CCCCC for Mint and then CC+token for Silver is probably better.  With a bit of luck, you would Mint a Silver and buy a Silver on turn 3
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popsofctown

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2013, 06:51:40 pm »
+1

This counters Ghost Ship really hard.  Like, a fifth as hard as Scout does.  Surely harder than Lookout does.
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AJD

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2013, 08:05:50 pm »
+1

I am hoping that three of them are to make the Baker pile have 13 cards.

...

I get it!
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Titandrake

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #105 on: June 04, 2013, 08:56:54 pm »
0

The on play effect seems quite good. On turns 3/4, you should have enough information to make a good guess as to what Doctor will see. Trashing 2 cards for 1 dead card in hand is a pretty good deal, but you really need to hit 2 cards. If it only hits 1, well, compare it to Hermit or Lookout.

On buy effect is interesting, but I don't expect it to be super interesting. Will probably be spend $4 on the opening, or spend a ton in the middle of the game to get trashing after building up. I don't see myself spending $5 or $6 on it, unless it's particularly early on in the game, because the longer the game goes the less likely you'll hit a card you want to trash.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #106 on: June 04, 2013, 10:36:48 pm »
+3

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.
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markusin

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #107 on: June 04, 2013, 11:27:22 pm »
0

When Donald X. said this was going to be the most complicated expansion, he meant it.

This card is pulling a Mandarin . I think the on play effect is decent for a 3$, albeit terminal. I think the on-gain effect will come in handy the most mid game where you have some engine components already and you want to clear out a lot of junk at once, and you get a playable doctor afterwards. Early on though, I don't know how often I'd want to spend 5$ on a Doctor when other strong 5$ cards abound.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #108 on: June 05, 2013, 01:58:23 am »
0

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.
I like this, and I suspect it will be, if not a power combo, at least a pet trick. I'd wager Vault will be the best enabler, since it gives a better chance of sorting the wheat from the chaff and then $2 more to trash stuff - you'd be able to hit 3 cards with the Doctor, and if you don't hit your other opener that puts you in a pretty good position.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #109 on: June 05, 2013, 01:59:55 am »
0

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.
No no no, you've got it all wrong.  You want to spend 10$ on a Doctor after drawing all the cards in your deck and putting a Tunnel back on top with Mandarin.  Then you get about 3 golds.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #110 on: June 05, 2013, 02:12:24 am »
0

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.
No no no, you've got it all wrong.  You want to spend 10$ on a Doctor after drawing all the cards in your deck and putting a Tunnel back on top with Mandarin.  Then you get about 3 golds.
Interesting thing is you might be able to trash one of the golds and end up to have the same.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #111 on: June 05, 2013, 02:55:38 am »
0

When Donald X. said this was going to be the most complicated expansion, he meant it.

This card is pulling a Mandarin . I think the on play effect is decent for a 3$, albeit terminal. I think the on-gain effect will come in handy the most mid game where you have some engine components already and you want to clear out a lot of junk at once, and you get a playable doctor afterwards. Early on though, I don't know how often I'd want to spend 5$ on a Doctor when other strong 5$ cards abound.
The problem with mid-game trashing is that there is already a fair amount of decent cards in your deck. Say it's turn 8 and you haven't trashed anything yet, you'll likely have about 10 "keepable cards" (counting an extra gain/buy here and there) and 10 trashable cards.

So on average 1 out of 2 cards from the top of your deck is trashable. Let's pay $7 for Doctor and drill down 4 cards, we can expect to find 2 bad cards, but we have to start from the top. This has been mentioned before, but let's say it's Gold or Platinum or anything else you'd like to keep. Are you going to discard them hoping to find a lousy Copper or Estate? And if you don't find anything to trash, well, you just wasted 4 coins.

In my view, the overpaying for on-buy trashing is too expensive. By the time you can pay enough for a good trashing, there will be all those good cards in the way! Maaaaaybeee a niche combo will be with Apothecary which tends to set up bad hands after your current one, like a reverse Scout. The on-buy is pretty hard to pull off efficiently.

And this just leaves the on-play effect, which I think is a tad worse, okay, maybe it's roughly even par with the better trashers at $3 and $2, but still nothing to go crazy about.

A card like this does mean there will more often be a trasher available though and that's always good. :)
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popsofctown

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #112 on: June 05, 2013, 03:02:39 am »
0

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.
No no no, you've got it all wrong.  You want to spend 10$ on a Doctor after drawing all the cards in your deck and putting a Tunnel back on top with Mandarin.  Then you get about 3 golds.
Interesting thing is you might be able to trash one of the golds and end up to have the same.
We'll make this relevant, Forager is on the board.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #113 on: June 05, 2013, 04:53:50 am »
0

We don't actually have much to go on here. Mint, which supports my point but of course that's a very extreme case. (As a sidenote, it strikes me that Mint gets a lot better in Baker games where you can buy it with CCCC+coin. That's fun.)

I think CCCCC for Mint and then CC+token for Silver is probably better.  With a bit of luck, you would Mint a Silver and buy a Silver on turn 3

I think RD gave the more common example on purpose and took it for granted that you get Mint for CCCCC instead of CCCC+coin if you have the opportunity.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #114 on: June 05, 2013, 04:57:45 am »
+2

This might have been covered, but I wonder if overpaying is obligatory if you throw down more money than the cost (eg a platinum is all you have in your hand). Now the trashing effect is fine because you can just continually replace the top card if overpaying is obligatory, but you may be in a situation where it triggers a reshuffle to draw that top card and that might be undesirable. Another scenario could be that you only want to overpay by one, but have a gold and silver down.

I suspect it won't be obligatory, but it could make certain situations interesting. :)

In general about this card: could it be a reasonable-ish response to attacks that clog up your next card or inspect your deck? The on-buy is to speed it up and make it hit at least once when you want it. It's not an ace response, but then it's only a $3 cost card *shrug*.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 05:01:48 am by Octo »
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #115 on: June 05, 2013, 05:28:43 am »
+2

No, it's not obligatory.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #116 on: June 05, 2013, 05:44:20 am »
0

I think you have to specifically mention that you're either overpaying or not in that case and if you do, by how much.

Imagine playing a Venture, drawing 9 other Ventures and a Platinum. Now you have $15 down (okay, you might get something else, but still...). :o

There will likely be other cards with overpay so if you have Gold+Silver out and you want to buy Doctor for $4 and another $0+ card for $1 you just have to say "I pay X for this and Y for that".
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #117 on: June 05, 2013, 07:50:59 am »
0

Apparently you don't have to choose how much you're paying for it until you've bought it, i.e. if you have Haggler in play and buy it, you have the two on-buy effects, you can gain before *or* after you overpay, and it's not until the overpay effect resolves that you have to declare how much you're overpaying (including 0).
This is based on one of Donald's posts from BGG, but it also follows from the straight reading of the rules.

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #118 on: June 05, 2013, 08:08:24 am »
+1

WW, I really like your analysis of an opening Doctor. I'd like to talk about a mid-game Doctor, because whether or not buying a Doctor for $6 or $10 is a good idea, there will certainly be the perception that it's a good idea and Donald even suggests doing so right in the preview.

Specifically, let's talk about a Curse slog. Now getting to $8 in such a slog is difficult enough (although possibly easier with coin tokens). Do you think it might be worth spending your first $8 or $9 hand on a Doctor, rather than a Province? After all, you're probably going to end up trashing 3 to 4 bad cards and you're getting a card that at least has a pretty good shot at helping to further thin your deck of Curses. I could see that being a good investment.

Perhaps Doctor is what newbies always want Chapel to be—a card that you can buy after your deck is bogged down with Curses to help you clean them out.
No.

Ok, I should explain more. I don't think buying this big in the midgame will hardly ever be the play you make. Usually if you have so much cash, there is something better to buy, but more importantly, if you really want this card, you would have opened with it (or at the very least, gotten one very early, like on the first reshuffle). In the midgame, the play effect is going to be pretty marginal. And if you're playing it for curse clean-up, it sees only 3 cards at once, and... okay, you aren't so impressed by the play effect. But I think Davio has this one right - by the time you can look at like 5 cards, you are only going to be trashing, what, two of them anyway? And you'd just rather have a province. Okay, if you somehow know that the top of your deck has a bunch of bad cards (probably at least three curses or something), then you'd do it. But I suspect that won't come up... almost ever.

We also need to remember that Donald-said-it doesn't mean it's-good-strategy-advice. This isn't to say Donald doesn't know ow to play the game very well. But as he's said before, he doesn't give strategy advice. What that means, for the previews, is that all this stuff shouldn't really be taken as "here's something you want to do", particularly often. It's more "Here's something you *can* do, which might be fun or cool, and in some situations might be useful." And by 'might be useful' means you have some reasons to consider it - it does something good for you - but doesn't necessarily overcome the other options you have.

WheresMyElephant

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2013, 08:56:31 am »
+6

I'd bet midgame Doctor is largely just a tactical decision.  It's not so rare to get an unwelcome $8 on an early turn,  and when you do,  it's because all your good cards are safely in hand.  That's 4-5 junk cards gone,  guaranteed, never mind the Doctor which is hopefully welcome in your deck. Would anyone really argue that's a bad play?

Strategically it would favor cards that tend to suffer from this problem.  Baron and Death Cart come to mind,  and both are quite happy to see some Copper leave town,  as it would happen. A lesser example might be something like Cache. Or you could buy it on your $12 post-Treasure Map turn. (This would let you trash surplus Treasure Maps or cards whose only use was to connect the Treasure Maps,  possibly enabling some TM combos that you would otherwise reject because their end result is ungainly.)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 09:16:32 am by WheresMyElephant »
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #120 on: June 05, 2013, 09:33:52 am »
0

Doctor+Market Square: Combo or nombo? On a good day, a hand of $4+MS is better than $4+Silver: you get your Gold plus free trashing and a free Doctor (which combos with MS in the future). On a bad day, you get $3+MS and would probably rather have had the Silver,  and on a really bad day you get $4+MS but you turn up a card you don't want to trash. 

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #121 on: June 05, 2013, 09:41:36 am »
+1

Well, calling Doctor/MS a combo specifically is not much different from calling "any trasher"/MS a combo I think.

I generally like MS and as any trasher is more fun with MS on board, so is Doctor.
And the reverse is also true of course.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #122 on: June 05, 2013, 10:15:09 am »
0

Well, calling Doctor/MS a combo specifically is not much different from calling "any trasher"/MS a combo I think.

I generally like MS and as any trasher is more fun with MS on board, so is Doctor.
And the reverse is also true of course.
Eh,  maybe.  I guess I'm more wondering whether it would be practical to rely primarily on the on-buy power when you're doing this,  or whether you treat Doctor mostly like a conventional trasher with occasional tactical buys.

Let's take the most extreme case. I open MS/MS and just continue buying MS until I start to get turns of $4+MS, whereupon I buy a Doctor,  and continue in this vein. (I'm probably willing to trash MS and/or Doctors at some point).  Does this work? What if I compromise just slightly by mixing in some Silver, or buying a Doctor at any price on T4 if I haven't yet gotten one?
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #123 on: June 05, 2013, 12:51:58 pm »
0

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.
But if I'm in a situation where I can draw everything, I think I'd rather have also bought a Forge and  use it to clear away all junk, instead of asking to already have bought a SecretChamber/Vault-type card, use it to discard, then overpay for a Doctor to clear stuff.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #124 on: June 05, 2013, 12:54:42 pm »
0

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.
But if I'm in a situation where I can draw everything, I think I'd rather have also bought a Forge and  use it to clear away all junk, instead of asking to already have bought a SecretChamber/Vault-type card, use it to discard, then overpay for a Doctor to clear stuff.

Not every game has Forge in it.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #125 on: June 05, 2013, 03:10:40 pm »
0

Not every game has Forge in it.

Blasphemy!
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #126 on: June 05, 2013, 03:12:31 pm »
0

With Bridges/Highways on the board, it's typically the case that the things you want to buy immediately are more Bridges and Highways, even if their cost is reduced to $0 now. In such a situation, you might find yourself overpaying for a $0 Doctor.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #127 on: June 05, 2013, 04:03:19 pm »
+2

I only read part of this thread, but did anyone mention a possible interaction with minion (or any cycling engine). Sometime in the mid game of a minion engine you'll be cycling your deck and have all your junk in the discard and a good amount of cash to burn. If it's the type of Minion engine to stall when greening, sacrificing a turn to trash a ton of junk might be reasonable.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #128 on: June 05, 2013, 06:12:37 pm »
0

With Bridges/Highways on the board, it's typically the case that the things you want to buy immediately are more Bridges and Highways, even if their cost is reduced to $0 now. In such a situation, you might find yourself overpaying for a $0 Doctor.

I was thinking something like this; if you play enough Bridges that everything you want is free,  then you have a lot of money left to blow on Doctor.  The problem though seems the same as with many late Doctor buys: how and why are you getting this fairly big Bridge turn prior to thinning your deck? Why are you relying on your engine to go off before you've thinned it?  Did you do a one time Inn buy, or something? It's especially strange with Bridge (somewhat less with Highway) because if you're planning on a mega turn you don't have this situation of "My deck works now but I have to make room for Provinces so I can keep going while I green," which in principle might justify a late Doctor buy in some other finely tuned engines.

Beyond that, I suspect the overpriced Doctor is comparable to $7 cards like KC, which also might be in the same situation of being the only non-free card you buy in a turn. It helps and all but it feels pretty weird to call it synergy.
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markusin

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #129 on: June 05, 2013, 10:26:52 pm »
0

Perhaps it's true that the on-buy effect is not designed to be great in many situations. There are times where you know you have mostly junk in the rest of your deck due to having played lots of sifters or something, but then it's likely that the junk is all in the discard pile and and using the on-buy effect causes a reshuffle that all your good cards miss.

Overall, using this card to its full potential requires good deck tracking and management. That's always interesting.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #130 on: June 06, 2013, 08:57:24 am »
0

Another cool and interesting card. Again, most of the things might have already been said.

I think it can best compared to Chapel. It's a great trasher in the first couple of turns, but gets really weak really fast.
Buying and Overpaying it on a 5/2 is really great as you may hit 2 Estates and can get a Doctor/$4 opening with 2 Estates already out of your deck. You might draw it even on turn 2 and trash 3 Coppers, so you have already trashed half of your starting cards, this is way faster deck thinning than with Chapel.

Other than that, it doesn't seem so strong. Trashing cards that aren't in your hand is great, no doubt about that because you can trash and still have probably enough money to buy a Silver or better. Naming a card at least has no drawback hitting 3 Colonies (at least that's how I understand it). But you really have to know what to name what makes it hard to guess in the mid-game. You're probably most naming Coppers, or Curse in a cursing game. If you couldn't find one, you at least don't have a Loan-like disadvantage in discarding good cards and just have a little bit of deck inspection, but all for the cost of an action.

The overpaying is great at the beginning, but I'm not sure when I want to pass a Gold or even a Province just to trash a few cards. If you have a lot of money in hand that means that you have a lot of bad cards left in your deck, that's true, but I rather buy a Warehouse (granted that it's in the kingdom) to cycle through my bad cards than getting a mostly dead card in my deck to just trash a little bit. I mean on-buy trashing is not only for the cost of money, also for the cost of getting one card in your deck, that isn't that useful. This means you have to trash at least 2 cards to make it worth it which means that you have to pay at least $5. Not being able to look at all the cards that you overpay for makes it even less powerful if you pay $5 and draw a Gold first. I don't think that the overpaying is that useful after turn 5, but having the possibility is great and something you have to at least consider.

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #131 on: June 06, 2013, 09:00:11 am »
0

I don't think this has been mentioned yet: The problem with buying this when having lots of money in a midgame hand, that might be because you have most of your deck in hand, which will likely include lots of the junk you want to trash.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #132 on: June 06, 2013, 09:04:12 am »
0

I don't think this has been mentioned yet: The problem with buying this when having lots of money in a midgame hand, that might be because you have most of your deck in hand, which will likely include lots of the junk you want to trash.

In comes Storeroom to save the day. More cash & junk in discard.

OK storeroom is just one card, but he has some friends.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #133 on: June 06, 2013, 09:10:47 am »
0

One thing that was not mentioned (I guess) is that trashing from deck instead of hand (or instread of hand + discard like Hermit) is that, appart from letting you do something useful with your current hand, it cycles a lot, an in particular, it cycles your early trasher. I think Doctor can easily be faster than Chapel for deck thinning in the right circumstance (if you start buying drawers, especially non-terminals, Chapel will become better and Doctor worse, but if your starting buys are things like attacks or Durations that stay out a long time, Doctor may be better, as it has more opportunity to trash your remaining starting cards).

If you trash your three Estates quick, a couple of passes of naming Copper should be enough to clear your deck. So you can be absolutely done with trashing by T5 or T6, without the help of your drawing.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #134 on: June 06, 2013, 09:19:17 am »
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Imagine opening Procession/Doctor, and then thinning out half your deck while replacing Doctor with Fortress on turn 3.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #135 on: June 06, 2013, 11:00:36 am »
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Has anyone thought about how a Doctor/Squire opening with Familiar on the board compares with other options to get an early familiar?  With a 2/5 opening you have a 1/3 chance on turn 2 of trashing the squire you bought on turn 1.  Then you actually have a chance (14%?) to draw it on turn 3.  So 4.7% chance to play the Familiar on turn 3.

If you miss it, you can start playing Doctor and naming Squire, and get really annoyed when you draw both.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 11:24:58 am by Witherweaver »
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #136 on: June 06, 2013, 12:24:26 pm »
+2

I just realized the thematic connotations here:

How much you pay for the doctor's visit depends on how bad your malady is, i.e., how much junk you have in your deck.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #137 on: June 06, 2013, 12:27:06 pm »
0

I just realized the thematic connotations here:

How much you pay for the doctor's visit depends on how bad your malady is, i.e., how much junk you have in your deck.

I wouldn't say that.  You could have a ton of junk in your deck, but not be able to afford the Doctor's aid.  Rather, the more you pay the Doctor, the more assistance you're given.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #138 on: June 06, 2013, 12:27:33 pm »
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I only read part of this thread, but did anyone mention a possible interaction with minion (or any cycling engine). Sometime in the mid game of a minion engine you'll be cycling your deck and have all your junk in the discard and a good amount of cash to burn. If it's the type of Minion engine to stall when greening, sacrificing a turn to trash a ton of junk might be reasonable.

And you can play it (if you have some village) too to trash more stuff.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

gman314

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #139 on: June 06, 2013, 03:48:08 pm »
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Doctor has to give you some reward for overpaying for it, to entice you to buy it. Ha, that's truly hilarious! With Scout, you commonly overpay for it by $6 or $7 money just to make sure you win the Scout split. No extra benefit necessary.

I would really like to see a log of Robz overpaying for Scout by $6 or $7. Also on my log wishlist, a game where the Scout split matters. Heck, a game where the Scouts run out would be sufficient.

Also, Robz, I'm holding you to what you said. I hope never to see any logs where you buy Doctor.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #140 on: June 06, 2013, 08:13:40 pm »
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I just bought a Doctor for 7 in a game where I proxied up Guilds cards, and through deck tracking I managed to trash 3 Estates. Then I played it a single time later to trash 2 coppers.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #141 on: June 06, 2013, 11:22:28 pm »
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Would Inn/doctor be a combo? Buy inn when your deck is empty, have all your bad cards in the discard and all your good cards in hand next turn, buy a doctor and trash all the junk.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #142 on: June 07, 2013, 03:04:22 am »
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Would Inn/doctor be a combo? Buy inn when your deck is empty, have all your bad cards in the discard and all your good cards in hand next turn, buy a doctor and trash all the junk.
Doctor trashes from the top of your deck, not your discard.
Well, you probably knew that, but it's hard to get every good card in hand and have a deck of mostly junk!
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #143 on: June 07, 2013, 03:45:13 am »
0

I just realized the thematic connotations here:

How much you pay for the doctor's visit depends on how bad your malady is, i.e., how much junk you have in your deck.

I wouldn't say that.  You could have a ton of junk in your deck, but not be able to afford the Doctor's aid.  Rather, the more you pay the Doctor, the more assistance you're given.

This should rather be in RSP but it is a truism that the more medicine opens to market laws the more resources are allocated to where they are needed least (cases in point: cosmetic surgery and botox vs prevention of malaria).
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ftl

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #144 on: June 07, 2013, 03:56:57 am »
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Would Inn/doctor be a combo? Buy inn when your deck is empty, have all your bad cards in the discard and all your good cards in hand next turn, buy a doctor and trash all the junk.
Doctor trashes from the top of your deck, not your discard.
Well, you probably knew that, but it's hard to get every good card in hand and have a deck of mostly junk!

Well, I was thinking of a good inn purchase - your deck is mostly empty, everything's in the discard. You buy inn, shuffling all the good stuff into an empty deck. So next turn you get a turn where you draw all your good stuff first, and and have all the junk afterwards - seems like a good setup for a doctor purchase. Does take two turns though.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 04:03:40 am by ftl »
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brokoli

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #145 on: June 07, 2013, 04:41:50 am »
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I like the idea of Inn / Doctor, it could be quite good in a +action/+draw deck.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #146 on: June 07, 2013, 05:07:27 am »
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The problem with having a big discard pile full of junk and then buying a Doctor is that you will trigger a reshuffle, so unless you can spend $10+ on that Doctor (and really, how are you producing so much with only action cards), you will trash a few cards from the top but then not see your action cards again for 2+ turns.

Besides, if your Inn superturns produce a lot of money, why not leave some Cellars/Warehice in your junk deck, buy VP, then cycle through to your next Inn superturn.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #147 on: June 07, 2013, 10:02:13 am »
+3

10 in the supply + 1 randomizer = 11 Doctors. Donald X. is a Doctor Who fan. :o
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #148 on: June 07, 2013, 12:00:15 pm »
+2

10 in the supply + 1 randomizer = 11 Doctors. Donald X. is a Doctor Who fan. :o

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #149 on: June 07, 2013, 11:55:18 pm »
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10 in the supply + 1 randomizer = 11 Doctors. Donald X. is a Doctor Who fan. :o

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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #150 on: June 14, 2013, 12:19:50 pm »
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How do we feel about buying Doctor on turn 2?  Should you overpay?  I just got a 3/4 with the intent of opening Silver/Doctor.  I chose not to overspend, else my new Doctor would miss the reshuffle.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #151 on: June 14, 2013, 07:05:37 pm »
+2

How do we feel about buying Doctor on turn 2?  Should you overpay?  I just got a 3/4 with the intent of opening Silver/Doctor.  I chose not to overspend, else my new Doctor would miss the reshuffle.
You're reshuffling again in one turn, I don't think it's a big deal. I'd be more concerned about hitting your Silver, but if the odds of this are the same as the odds of your Silver missing the reshuffle if you didn't overpay, so it's probably about a wash. Note your odds of $5 on T3 are the same either way. I think overpaying is the move here.

Edit: Forgot you don't have to fear hitting the Silver. Even better: immunizing your Silver from missing the reshuffle is an unalloyed good.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 07:11:02 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #152 on: June 16, 2013, 10:32:51 pm »
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How do we feel about buying Doctor on turn 2?  Should you overpay?  I just got a 3/4 with the intent of opening Silver/Doctor.  I chose not to overspend, else my new Doctor would miss the reshuffle.
You're reshuffling again in one turn, I don't think it's a big deal. I'd be more concerned about hitting your Silver, but if the odds of this are the same as the odds of your Silver missing the reshuffle if you didn't overpay, so it's probably about a wash. Note your odds of $5 on T3 are the same either way. I think overpaying is the move here.

Edit: Forgot you don't have to fear hitting the Silver. Even better: immunizing your Silver from missing the reshuffle is an unalloyed good.

Oh, I see. My discard pile only has six cards in it at this point.  Somehow I was thinking that I'd have to cycle through all of my cards again before first seeing my Doctor on turn 5 or later.
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Re: Preview #2: Doctor
« Reply #153 on: June 18, 2013, 11:58:49 am »
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The more I think about it, the less sure I am. Experience will probably have to be the judge.

I suspect it IS slowing down your trashing a little on the whole. In exchange you quickly get an extra shot at your new Silver, but not really the most impressive odds of hitting $5 (7/18, by my math). And even if the latter is good, are you going to prioritize an early buy over trashing speed? Maybe sometimes, but this preference seems perhaps a little incongruous with opening Doctor in the first place.
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