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Author Topic: 5/3 Openings  (Read 13689 times)

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Titandrake

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2013, 02:41:31 am »
+1

This is only for puzzles, but you can now do

T1: Stonemason for $6, gaining 2 Nomad Camps
T2: Play Necropolis, play 2 Nomad Camps, now have $6 and 2 buys.

Stonemason/Nomad Camp/Nomad Camp/Stonemason/Fortress/Fortress opening? Now a thing.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 02:42:36 am by Titandrake »
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Davio

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2013, 02:42:52 am »
+1

This is only for puzzles, but you can now do

T1: Stonemason for $6, gaining 2 Nomad Camps
T2: Play Necropolis, play 2 Nomad Camps, now have $6 and 2 buys.

Stonemason/Nomad Camp/Nomad Camp/Stonemason/Fortress/Fortress opening? Now a thing.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2013, 02:44:48 am »
0

This is only for puzzles, but you can now do

T1: Stonemason for $6, gaining 2 Nomad Camps
T2: Play Necropolis, play 2 Nomad Camps, now have $6 and 2 buys.

3 buys, and you can get 3 peddlers. Or even 3 peddlers, a stone mason and a spare buy.

Then use stone mason on the peddlers.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2013, 02:57:52 am »
0

Open Stonemason/Bridge/Bridge//Native Village
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sudgy

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2013, 01:53:22 am »
0

Actually, last turn you could buy Peddler/Stonemason/Watchtower and start getting amazing cards almost right away...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

PSGarak

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2013, 02:33:00 am »
0

If there's Familiar on the board, is it a brilliant idea or a terrible one to open Stonemason-Squire/Squire//Stonemason-Squire/Squire? On the one hand, you won't reshuffle until after Turn 5 and gaining a Familiar entails gaining two copper (which may not be a bad thing?). But on the other, you are guaranteed at least one Familiar by the second reshuffle, and likely a second, without Potions and with the ability to downgrade Familiar to Silver afterwards.
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jaybeez

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2013, 02:50:53 am »
0

Just had a game where I opened Doctor/Silver on a 5/3.  In that order, which is important because after trashing an Estate and a Copper on T1 with the Doctor on-buy effect, I played the Doctor to trash two Coppers on Turn 2.  Man it was so awesome.
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SirPeebles

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2013, 10:07:38 am »
0

If there's Familiar on the board, is it a brilliant idea or a terrible one to open Stonemason-Squire/Squire//Stonemason-Squire/Squire? On the one hand, you won't reshuffle until after Turn 5 and gaining a Familiar entails gaining two copper (which may not be a bad thing?). But on the other, you are guaranteed at least one Familiar by the second reshuffle, and likely a second, without Potions and with the ability to downgrade Familiar to Silver afterwards.

You aren't guaranteed a Familiar by the second reshuffle.  For instance, you could draw 4 Squires and an Estate turn 3.  On the other hand, if you open Potion/Silver and draw them together with three Coppers, you could buy a Stonemason and overpay by $3P for two Familiars.
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Tables

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2013, 10:44:30 am »
0

I've run a few simulations on TM/TM opens, against Market/Silver and Wharf/Silver. It wins about 33% of the time against Wharf and about 50% againt Market, although those are not entirely optimised. Testing it with the TM's being forced to collide turn 3 (with 3 coppers) against Wharf/Silver, the win rate becomes about 80% - lower than I thought it would be, actually. Note I did let it buy Wharves since they're on the board.

So... TM/TM is not really a guaranteed win. Wharf BM is strong, but there's much better engines, so even a turn 3 collision can be beaten by either a good player, or later luck.
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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2013, 07:23:29 am »
0

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130703/log.50fefabfe4b0f82020d85477.1372850238009.txt

Goons/Lighthouse is sick. Takes him 9 turns to get $6, and I have two Goons at that point, getting the third one on turn 10.
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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2013, 07:36:06 am »
0

Goons/Lighthouse is sick.
Your poor opponent! With King's Court on the board, and Peddler to soak up extra Goons buys, this game was won on turn 1.
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Davio

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2013, 08:19:19 am »
0

I'm not so sure that Goons/$2 is so amazing. I'd imagine that in most kingdoms, a $5/$3 is better for engine building. There are some kingdoms where Goons/$2 is strong, like probably:

Goons/Chapel
Goons/Lighthouse
Goons/FG (no engine)
Goons/Pawn?

But I will probably usually take a $5/$3 opening most of the time. In an engine game, the couple of VP tokens that you get from an early Goons is dwarfed by the megaturn. So opening Goons/$2 on most boards is like opening Militia/$2, which is not that great.

$6/$2 doesn't seem all that great. Off the top of my head, I would only consider BV/Chapel and Gold/Courtyard as other good openings.
Well, another reason why an opening Goons isn't that great is that you can't really hinder your opponent from getting to a crucial $5 if needed, because of the Baker coin. Say the non-Goons opener starts with Silver/$4 terminal Silver with a regular $4/$3. You only need to have $4 in regular money in one of your next 2/3 turns to be able to get that $5 and with your coin you might even get to six.
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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2013, 09:52:30 am »
0

Would double pirate ship be good?
Pirate ship is typically too slow to achieve high enough value, AND you clear the opponent's copper. But if you have two, and they don't collide, the additional build up speed might just make it viable.

How about double moneylender?

I might even consider [powerful $5] / chancellor....
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Robz888

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2013, 03:33:31 pm »
+1

Would double pirate ship be good?
Pirate ship is typically too slow to achieve high enough value, AND you clear the opponent's copper. But if you have two, and they don't collide, the additional build up speed might just make it viable.

No.

How about double moneylender?

No.

I might even consider [powerful $5] / chancellor....

I wouldn't.
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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2013, 03:38:38 pm »
+2

Only if it's a nonterminal $5. Rebuild/Chancellor sounds like a good opening to me!
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Awaclus

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2013, 05:16:41 pm »
0

Only if it's a nonterminal $5. Rebuild/Chancellor sounds like a good opening to me!
It's probably marginally better than Rebuild/Silver, I would imagine.
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liopoil

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2013, 05:34:45 pm »
+3

Only if it's a nonterminal $5. Rebuild/Chancellor sounds like a good opening to me!
It's probably marginally better than Rebuild/Silver, I would imagine.
more than marginally I think. If there isn't a better terminal for rebuild, then it's strictly better, in a big way. I think chancellor's cycling is better with rebuild.
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