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Author Topic: 5/3 Openings  (Read 20776 times)

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dondon151

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2013, 11:12:44 am »
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I forgot Goons/Squire and Goons/Hamlet, but I still think $5/$3 is going to be better.

EDIT: Also Altar with a lot of $2s is good.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 02:21:26 pm by dondon151 »
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liopoil

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2013, 03:40:43 pm »
+1

altar-squire with cultist on the board?
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jbrecken

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2013, 04:39:07 pm »
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Urchin/Margrave
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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013, 05:28:18 pm »
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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2013, 05:29:44 pm »
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 07:40:37 pm by Watno »
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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2013, 07:38:52 pm »
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Why are we ignoring Thief/Thief?

/joking

But really, how about in 4 player games?
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sudgy

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2013, 08:03:00 pm »
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Why are we ignoring Thief/Thief?

/joking

But really, how about in 4 player games?

With Gardens, not a bad idea.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Schlippy

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2013, 01:33:34 pm »
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Why does everyone argue that double Treasure Maps leads to a 30% win chance? Even if Treasure Map said "When this collides with another Treasure Map, you instantly win unless your opponent reveals two Treasure Maps from his hand." it wasn't even close to 30% win chance. It might be around 30% win chance for the first player when Treasure Map said "When you buy a copy of this, no other player (except you) can gain or buy any copies of this anymore", but even those 30% are pretty far fetched.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 01:38:20 pm by Schlippy »
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SirPeebles

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2013, 01:47:10 pm »
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Why does everyone argue that double Treasure Maps leads to a 30% win chance? Even if Treasure Map said "When this collides with another Treasure Map, you instantly win unless your opponent reveals two Treasure Maps from his hand." it wasn't even close to 30% win chance. It might be around 30% win chance for the first player when Treasure Map said "When you buy a copy of this, no other player (except you) can gain or buy any copies of this anymore", but even those 30% are pretty far fetched.

Why stipulate that they can't buy Treasure Map?

Anyhow, it looks like your argument is that everyone can grab Treasure Map.  I think that's rather the problem.  Many players, particularly skilled players who have invested lots of time studying strategy, don't like the idea of everyone rolling some early dice to determine who ends up with four Golds versus who holds onto two dead cards. 
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Schlippy

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2013, 02:17:23 pm »
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Why does everyone argue that double Treasure Maps leads to a 30% win chance? Even if Treasure Map said "When this collides with another Treasure Map, you instantly win unless your opponent reveals two Treasure Maps from his hand." it wasn't even close to 30% win chance. It might be around 30% win chance for the first player when Treasure Map said "When you buy a copy of this, no other player (except you) can gain or buy any copies of this anymore", but even those 30% are pretty far fetched.

Why stipulate that they can't buy Treasure Map?

Anyhow, it looks like your argument is that everyone can grab Treasure Map.  I think that's rather the problem.  Many players, particularly skilled players who have invested lots of time studying strategy, don't like the idea of everyone rolling some early dice to determine who ends up with four Golds versus who holds onto two dead cards.
I also do not like the idea, but it is not like this that is a new thing in Dominion. Familiar and Young Witch can lead to similar situations. Even worse, being lucky with those two directly leads to your opponent being less likely to buy his next Familiar/have his bane in hand when he needs too. Being able to start a Torturer chain faster than your opponent due to simple drawing luck leads to him being less likely to set of his. Hitting a Silver early on a Knight-dependend board is devastating and also leads to your opponent being less likely to catch up on the Knight split. Similar situations can occur with Minion (although to a far lesser extent). A 3E 1C chapel hand can easily be the win on some boards, even for pretty bad players. Mint/FG and Chapel/Witch also often lead to games that are over due to simple luck. Tournament, cough.
Dominion can be a game with a relatively big luck factor, depending on the board. That is just how it works. If you have to roll the dice because that will lead to a 50%/50% chance (ignoring first player advantage) then so be it. In the end you will still win more games if you're better and luckily Dominion is a fast game, so you can play matches instead of single games.
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ashersky

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2013, 06:52:03 pm »
+1

Why does everyone argue that double Treasure Maps leads to a 30% win chance? Even if Treasure Map said "When this collides with another Treasure Map, you instantly win unless your opponent reveals two Treasure Maps from his hand." it wasn't even close to 30% win chance. It might be around 30% win chance for the first player when Treasure Map said "When you buy a copy of this, no other player (except you) can gain or buy any copies of this anymore", but even those 30% are pretty far fetched.

I thought people were arguing it was a 30% chance of drawing the two together, not of winning the entire game.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2013, 07:00:34 am »
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On the issue of FTA, Noble Brigand/Noble Brigand
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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2013, 07:25:34 am »
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Talisman / Quarry ?
Island / Island ?
Remake / Remake ?
Nomad camp / Peddler ? This is probably a terrible idea but it's fun to know that you can open with peddler. And maybe not that bad with a Tfb. Same with Border village
Native village / Goonds ? For a goons megaturn ?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 07:26:46 am by brokoli »
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Robz888

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2013, 11:43:58 pm »
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I kind of life the idea of opening Double Remake. That'll clean your deck out pronto!
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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2013, 12:07:16 am »
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Nomad camp / Peddler ? This is probably a terrible idea but it's fun to know that you can open with peddler. And maybe not that bad

You can already do that in Dark Ages games with Necropolis, and get yourself a Poor House too if you're lucky.
Now with Baker, you can get yourself any $2 card. If you're planning on picking up a TFB Squire seems like a good move.

You can open Nomad Camp/Border Village(/Death Cart/Ruins/Ruins)/Ruins, which will give your death cart a lot to work with, and I think 6 unique cards is the most that can be opened with barring multiplayer shenanigans. Nomad Camp/Death Cart/Squire or Hamlet is probably better though.

Speaking of shenanigans, opening with a $6 Doctor gives you a good chance of cleaning out your junk on turn 2, and you'll probably have more than $2 on your second turn with a thinner deck. Best case scenario, you can open $6/$5. Worst case scenario, you still get $2, you've already trashed one of your junk cards, and you can play the Doctor to try trash the others.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2013, 11:54:13 pm »
+1

Stonemason/Treasure Map/Treasure Map/Haven (or possibly courtyard if it's a Shelters game) will be the best 6/2 opening.
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sudgy

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2013, 12:49:55 am »
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Stonemason/Treasure Map/Treasure Map/Haven (or possibly courtyard if it's a Shelters game) will be the best 6/2 opening.

What's the chance of collision?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

AJD

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2013, 02:22:35 am »
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I'd like to second the suggestion of Goons / Native Village.
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sudgy

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2013, 02:23:45 am »
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I'd like to second the suggestion of Goons / Native Village.

Why Native Village?  If you're looking for a village, go with hamlet.  That one gives +buys too (for the Goons).
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: 5/3 Openings
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2013, 02:35:40 am »
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I'd like to second the suggestion of Goons / Native Village.

Why Native Village?  If you're looking for a village, go with hamlet.  That one gives +buys too (for the Goons).

Goons benefits from Native Village for the same reason Bridge does: you really want to get multiple Goons lined up in the same hand with enough actions to play them all, since the benefit is quadratic in the number of Goons you play. You can't build a Native Village / Goons deck like you can a Native Village / Bridge deck, buying nothing buy NV/Bridge until it's time to pull the megaturn, since Goons costs too much to pull that off. But you can totally play a strategy where you keep putting cards on your Native Village mat until there's two or three Goons there, and then pull them off for a Pretty Okay Turn.

With Hamlet/Goons, aren't you doomed to spend a lot of turns with Goons/Goons/Hamlet hands, which once the Hamlets run out isn't useful for very much?
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