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[chairs]

Rather, Vote: Robz

[chairs]

(Important note - this was suppposed to be part of my post 2 posts ago.  Sorry for any confusion this causes!)

I'm back! From Outer Space! (Or at least Chicago).   The post-count for this game was somewhat reasonable, thank goodness, so I'll try to address what jumped out at me for D2 (sectioning it off):

====

Um, I find it EXTREMELY weird that yuma says he has a case against liopoil, doesn't give it, and mcmc and SB vote without even hearing the case! Okay, sheeple.

Vote: mcmc

Except mcmc gave a reason and sb sheeped that one. Just to be clear.

The reason mcmc gave is paper thin.

I did feel mcmc's response in this post was not well-argued.  It leads me to a slight scum read on mcmc, even though I still feel there's potential for scum!Robz here trying to look helpful (while potentially throwing the finger) - I found Robz scummy on D1 (albeit I don't currently recall why - I'm probably going to suck it up and re-read everybody) and I'm getting nil-to-slightly-town!Robz D2 so far in the posts.

====

I have two questions for you:

1. Why do you disagree? aka, why would hammering a townread ever help you achieve the town wincon? not asking you to change your mind, just wondering.
2. Why does me holding a belief you disagree with make me more likely to be scum?

1) you're asking the wrong question. The question is exactly how did I hurt town by hammering a player that had been at l-1 for quite a while, had plenty of chances to fight for his life and refused, had plenty of chances to give reads, claim etc. And didn't, etc.  Exactly how was nk helping us? The answer is he wasn't. And you defending that kind of play...and going further declaring it scummy to EVER hammer a player in that situation is just not good fir us...it's scummy
2. See above

spiritbears, that lynch wasn't a done deal. It was still possible for us to lynch somebody else that day. nkirbit didn't play perfectly, and maybe could have done more to prevent his lynch, but up until your hammer, there wasn't a 5th person to vote for him. chances are he would've been lynched anyway, but you made it certain.

I do agree with that, actually.

There's an argument on both sides here; I can see the point SB was making, but a mislynch is a mislynch, regardless of if you feel it helped the game.  Was nkirbit playing poorly? Maybe.  Maybe.  Was that, by itself, a reason to lynch? I don't think so, but I won't necessarily that SB was wrong to do so (I still have to weigh the options on this one).  An interesting situation occurs here, though, in that this does give me a slight hint of scum!Robz with the "I agree, SB is either mistaken or scum" implication of his post without further discussion.  It seems to me that town would want to dissect this in a bit more detail to try to figure out which of the two scenarios was correct.

====

You and mcmc were clearly following yuma's vote, which carried no explanation. Mcmc's quick justification of the sheeping rings false to me. You, I tihnk, are merely wrong.

I hate to feel like I'm tunneling Robz, but this is another post that just struck my "You don't seem as though you should necessarily be that concise" nerve.  Why does mcmc sound bad when SB just sounds wrong (and admittedly perhaps a bit stubborn)?  Your lack of deep explanation makes this post somewhat less than beneficial, I think (I welcome and encourage disagreement/critique here) and continues your slide towards scum!Robz in my mind.

====

I'm going to walk away from here...my appoligies to Shraeye. Your game was fun and I enjoyed it. But apparently I have made this game unfun for many of you here.  I'm sorry

I have thoroughly enjoyed playing with you, but I do feel you are taking a game based upon "trust no one" too personally/seriously, perhaps.  I hope you'll change your mind, if I didn't miss the /out post (and you really haven't /outed yet).

====

Is chairs still V/LA?

I am (finally) back   I didn't understand that there was a V/LA thread to post to, in the future you'll see me post there when I have to be gone.

[yuma]

Even though for all we know--and I suspect this might be the case--he has nothing against lio and is trying to trap someone.

Nope not a trap. I'll post what I saw in my next post.

[liopoil]

yeah, shraeye, robz, or galz can delete that I think.

[liopoil]

This is the sort if thing that makes me think you are scum and I really need to remember after this game so I can improve my reading of you.

Let me clarify what I meant and why I thought you were scummy.
1) I don't think you are town shooting yourself in the foot I think generally townies have been shooting themselves in the foot by lynching based on this "town shouldn't do X" logic. Now seeing as we just had that discussion I think it is more likely scum!liopoil pushes the wagon that "town shouldn't do X" than that town!liopoil actually thinks spiritbears is scummy for hammering a town read.

My second issue with this is that it is a completely safe legitimate unprovable wagon which I am being extra cautious of. I mean yes sb had a town read yes he hammered him, I don't think that means he is any more likely to be scum, so you saying he did that is safe and in my opinion pushing a townie lynch, so I find you scummy for it.

2) this is something else I find really scummy, you decide I have a bad reasoning for finding you scummy and say I think your townie(I wasn't saying that) then piggyback onto the same statement that I a scummy because "how do I know your town" I mean really that is so much of a jump to an advantageous position for yourself and it something I find scum more likely to do(it's very similar to the tactic ash used against me previously) you sweep my argument under the rug and exclaim I'm scummy in the same breath without any response or reason.

Thanks for explaining this further, a lot of my post was confusion about what you were trying to say. I couldn't figure out what you were saying, so explored a bunch of possibilities... I suggested that you thought I was town because part of your original post suggested that in a way.

okay, so you think I'm wrong and pushing a misslynch. That's fair, can't argue against that, all I can say is that I'm being genuine in my reads. Don't believe me, nothing I can do about that.

to your point 2, I said that purely out of confusion about what you were saying. I couldn't make sense of your post, but I could see that you might be saying something like that.

so, if I have it right now, you think I'm scum because I want to lynch SB, and you think SB is town and my case is weak? Doesn't seem too strong to me.

[yuma]

Alright, what struck me as scummy was how lio was trying to set the tone and the mood of the town in each new post at the beginning of day. It wasn't very blatant, it was subtle, but it is certainly there. He is coming into this day with an agenda and trying to move town toward a specific goal, a specific direction... scum does that. Not town.

First post:

ugh. Vote: Spiritbears for that hammer! I hate hammers like that. Yes, I know nkirbit had already said he wasn't going to claim. However, you have to state intent and wait for something. I was planning to read nkirbit, and I never got a chance to do that. It was possible that maybe I would find nkirbit to be clearly town, and could maybe have prevented a mislynch. This is why I sometimes freak out when people get to L-1, because things like this are disasterous.

pretty obvious, let's look at spiritbears.

Sidenote: I am in the camp that doesn't find spiritbears scummy for what he did. To me it was very similar to the way he voted at the end of mean girls... pretty abruptly and certainly not at a point when the conversation was over. His vote was more about himself being frustrated with nkirbit and making up his mind... and typically when spiritbears makes up his mind, it is made (he knows this, we know this... so yeah, why not just go ahead and hammer.) I don't like it, but that is the way it is.

But for lio--if he is scum--it is the perfect route to go. And the easiest. And if I am scum, I am also going to go down this route, because hey... why not? It is potentially a pretty easy mislynch.

Next post:

The reason for my vote (which I should have explained in my first post), is not that I'm frustrated with the hammer (which I am), but that I think if we let people get away with hammers with that, scum will take advantage of it. We can't let scum get away with hammering without warning. Only scum ever have a motive to do that. So I actually think he's scum.

his reasoning... it is basically a policy vote at this point. Bad for this game, good for f.ds overall. Now I am all in favor of good for f.ds overall, but I also want to win this game.

Next:

Another thing I dislike: when town forgets dead conf!townies' reads. So here are nkirbit's final reads:

Reads, scum to town:

Mcmc
Mail-Mi
Robz
Yuma
Lio
SB
Voltaire

I'm forgetting someone, but they're probably in the middle since they don't bring up much thoughts.

He forgets Chairs in this list. anyway, let's keep these in mind.

Again he is directing out thoughts for us. "Hey, let's not forget what the dead townie thought!!! Oh and by the way he thought I was town. Just FYI."

Note here that nkirbit had a town read on spiritbears--because I know someone else will bring it up--and I already know what lio's answer would be... "Well nkirbit at that time didn't know that spiritbears would vote for him, if he did, his scum read on him would have gone up." Fair enough, but really the point is that we are moving in a direction that lio is dictating from the outset.

Next post: not a direction one, but a nice little public relations boost about PRs...

I'll say this right now: let's skip all the silly speculation about why there wasn't a kill. If you're a PR, use your own judgement on when to say anything. Use good judgement though . We have nothing to gain by discussing it further, and scum has stuff to gain in terms of figuring out who the PRs are.

again another post that is moving us in a certain direction:

Well, that could have gone better.  I'm still on limited access until about 36 hours from now. What can we glean from this? Who pushed this Wagon hardest, etc

I think it make spiritbears look really scummy because of his flip on nkirbit. Seems like scum who was like "I'm gonna be off-wagon, this'll be awesome!" then, "oh no, this mislynch might not go through without me. I really just want to get to night and mislynch townies, so I'll "change my mind"".

It also makes whoever was the alternative wagon(s) look bad. So that's Yuma, and maybe mail-mi/chairs right?

So if not spiritbears, who else could be an easy mislynch--granted this was in response to chairs--but note that it is people that aren't lio... trying to move town's attention and focus to a specific direction


Now the real question is thus:

Does lio's early day2 behavior--where I think he is trying to move town's attention to a specific area: ie spiritbears, mail-mi, yuma--match up with what I think scum would look like day1?

notes about day1:

 - self-referencing LVS - I've metnioned this before
 - I found his vote and then him saying that he noticed the "VT-slip" but didn't want to say anything about it to be off.
 - he was one of the players that I felt off for joining onto the mail-mi wagon, which I still think was an "easy" wagon. Remember the other player there was nkirbit... who I ultimately voted for after rereading both nkirbit and lio. But just because one player was town, doesn't invalidate that I felt like it would be a good place for mafia to jump onto.
 - lamenting a lack of support on mcmc when he never really pushed it--but used it as a justification for moving to mail-mi... I hadn't noticed it before, but it stands out now.
 - he started into the spiritbears case mid-day1. Again if I am scum and lio, when I see spiritbears hammer, I shout "Yippie! Someone I already have a scum read on did something pretty ridiculous that I think I can spin a scummy! Easy day2 lynch coming up. Mylo here we come!"
- he initially was reading nkiribt a bit scummy, but his ulitmate reason for not voting for him was "his reaction felt genuine." To me this is a classic reason for not voting someone as scum. Don't have to justify it, just say his reaction felt real... it is especially easy if you know someone's alignment, because it was real!

So yeah, I feel good about this vote.

Lio is what I would expect from scum. Trying to manipulate subtly the direction of town, staying mostly out of the limelight. Picking his fights and arguments carefully, setting up mislynches for the next day...

Right now I feel town on voltaire and mcmc.

middling on townside: mail-mi and chairs and spiritbears

null: robz

scum: lio.

I don't know who lio's partner could be and wouldn't really feel comfortable trying to pinpoint that down right now. Robz is possible, so is chairs. Others I think less likely.

[yuma]

sorry that ended up being longer than I intended...

Things to especially pay attention to... the summary below all the quotes and the summary of day1 activity.

[liopoil]

on SB - I am having second thoughts. His arguements before leaving really sounded to me like the town!SB from disputes in previous games. The main reason I think he's scum is the hammer. I don't think that he would do something that bad for town as town. But nobody agrees with me on this it seems, everyone thinks he would and did do it. I guess it's pointless for me to continue pushing it, because it isn't going to happen. even if he is scum, he's got a buddy out there. I'll go look for that buddy, and maybe I'm wrong and he is town, then I've got two people to look for!

(note: I'm not gonna do stuff like "I think player X is scum because it makes sense that he's SB's partner", because that's stupid.)

PPE: yuma

[liopoil]

Alright, what struck me as scummy was how lio was trying to set the tone and the mood of the town in each new post at the beginning of day. It wasn't very blatant, it was subtle, but it is certainly there. He is coming into this day with an agenda and trying to move town toward a specific goal, a specific direction... scum does that. Not town.

nope nope nope.

Yes, I was leading town a bit. you do that all the time Yuma, you lead us right into that D1 mislynch. (whether or not you knew it was a mislynch remains to be seen). leading town isn't scummy, you know that. and this is something I have done before. See my first post of D3 in mean girls, where I totally set the agenda for town, prepared that post in the night even, and was town.

[liopoil]

First post:

ugh. Vote: Spiritbears for that hammer! I hate hammers like that. Yes, I know nkirbit had already said he wasn't going to claim. However, you have to state intent and wait for something. I was planning to read nkirbit, and I never got a chance to do that. It was possible that maybe I would find nkirbit to be clearly town, and could maybe have prevented a mislynch. This is why I sometimes freak out when people get to L-1, because things like this are disasterous.

pretty obvious, let's look at spiritbears.

Sidenote: I am in the camp that doesn't find spiritbears scummy for what he did. To me it was very similar to the way he voted at the end of mean girls... pretty abruptly and certainly not at a point when the conversation was over. His vote was more about himself being frustrated with nkirbit and making up his mind... and typically when spiritbears makes up his mind, it is made (he knows this, we know this... so yeah, why not just go ahead and hammer.) I don't like it, but that is the way it is.

But for lio--if he is scum--it is the perfect route to go. And the easiest. And if I am scum, I am also going to go down this route, because hey... why not? It is potentially a pretty easy mislynch.

hmmm, that's a very interesting assessment of spiritbears. That is a good point.

sure, I might go for something like this if I was scum and SB town. but if I'm scum, I want a mislynch. And this clearly is not a mislynch I could get through. I don't want to push a lynch that nobody supports at this point, because it just makes it more likely for myself or my partner to be lynched. No, I would go for a lynch on somebody who already had suspicion on them.

[mail-mi]

I like yumas case on liopoil. However, we do still have a lot of time, and we don't need to quicklynch lio, so i will place a tentative vote: liopoil

[liopoil]

Next:

Another thing I dislike: when town forgets dead conf!townies' reads. So here are nkirbit's final reads:

Reads, scum to town:

Mcmc
Mail-Mi
Robz
Yuma
Lio
SB
Voltaire

I'm forgetting someone, but they're probably in the middle since they don't bring up much thoughts.

He forgets Chairs in this list. anyway, let's keep these in mind.

Again he is directing out thoughts for us. "Hey, let's not forget what the dead townie thought!!! Oh and by the way he thought I was town. Just FYI."

Note here that nkirbit had a town read on spiritbears--because I know someone else will bring it up--and I already know what lio's answer would be... "Well nkirbit at that time didn't know that spiritbears would vote for him, if he did, his scum read on him would have gone up." Fair enough, but really the point is that we are moving in a direction that lio is dictating from the outset.

That was in no way my motive in posting that. I hate it when people forget about dead townies. It's happened to me several times in which I was NKed, especially mean girls, where nobody listened to me about Yuma being scum and he was. man, that one still burns. So I want to do for nkirbit what I would want done for myself once I'm a dead townie - that we take a closer look at the people on top of the list.

actually, as it happens, that's not my answer. nkirbit posted that in twilight, after the hammer. So actually, yes, that does give me even more reservations about SB.

[liopoil]

I like yumas case on liopoil. However, we do still have a lot of time, and we don't need to quicklynch lio, so i will place a tentative vote: liopoil

c'mon mail-mi. think for yourself!

[liopoil]

Next post: not a direction one, but a nice little public relations boost about PRs...

I'll say this right now: let's skip all the silly speculation about why there wasn't a kill. If you're a PR, use your own judgement on when to say anything. Use good judgement though . We have nothing to gain by discussing it further, and scum has stuff to gain in terms of figuring out who the PRs are.

again another post that is moving us in a certain direction:

Well, that could have gone better.  I'm still on limited access until about 36 hours from now. What can we glean from this? Who pushed this Wagon hardest, etc

I think it make spiritbears look really scummy because of his flip on nkirbit. Seems like scum who was like "I'm gonna be off-wagon, this'll be awesome!" then, "oh no, this mislynch might not go through without me. I really just want to get to night and mislynch townies, so I'll "change my mind"".

It also makes whoever was the alternative wagon(s) look bad. So that's Yuma, and maybe mail-mi/chairs right?

So if not spiritbears, who else could be an easy mislynch--granted this was in response to chairs--but note that it is people that aren't lio... trying to move town's attention and focus to a specific direction

leading town isn't scummy! I've done it, you've done it..... as both alignments!

[liopoil]

notes about day1:

 - self-referencing LVS - I've metnioned this before
 - I found his vote and then him saying that he noticed the "VT-slip" but didn't want to say anything about it to be off.
 - he was one of the players that I felt off for joining onto the mail-mi wagon, which I still think was an "easy" wagon. Remember the other player there was nkirbit... who I ultimately voted for after rereading both nkirbit and lio. But just because one player was town, doesn't invalidate that I felt like it would be a good place for mafia to jump onto.
 - lamenting a lack of support on mcmc when he never really pushed it--but used it as a justification for moving to mail-mi... I hadn't noticed it before, but it stands out now.
 - he started into the spiritbears case mid-day1. Again if I am scum and lio, when I see spiritbears hammer, I shout "Yippie! Someone I already have a scum read on did something pretty ridiculous that I think I can spin a scummy! Easy day2 lynch coming up. Mylo here we come!"
- he initially was reading nkiribt a bit scummy, but his ulitmate reason for not voting for him was "his reaction felt genuine." To me this is a classic reason for not voting someone as scum. Don't have to justify it, just say his reaction felt real... it is especially easy if you know someone's alignment, because it was real!

So yeah, I feel good about this vote.

Lio is what I would expect from scum. Trying to manipulate subtly the direction of town, staying mostly out of the limelight. Picking his fights and arguments carefully, setting up mislynches for the next day...

I don't know who lio's partner could be and wouldn't really feel comfortable trying to pinpoint that down right now. Robz is possible, so is chairs. Others I think less likely.

wow, so all those fancy quotes, all from D2, and then just this about D1? you're the one who's always advocating re-reading previous days!

I never really made up my mind on nkirbit. the hammer came while I was away, I was planning to re-read him. I could possibly have been the hammer instead, or maybe I would have staunchly defended him, I am not sure, I never did re-read him. That's an example of an interaction which was lost in the pre-mature ending to the day.

[shraeye]

Vote Count 2.3

spiritbears (1): liopoil
liopoil (3): yuma, mcmcsalot, spiritbears
mcmcsalot (1): Robz
Robz (1): chairs

Not voting: mail-mi, Voltaire

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 11am forum time on Wednesday, July 15th

[liopoil]

Shraeye, are we getting a replacement for spiritbears....?

[shraeye]

This is being worked on, please continue as normal for now.

[liopoil]

meh, Unvote for now.

we're in bad shape people.

[liopoil]

mail-mi, you have 4 (four!!) posts today. Any reads besides liking yuma's case?

[mail-mi]

mail-mi, you have 4 (four!!) posts today. Any reads besides liking yuma's case?

Yep. Sad that SB is gone, mcmc sounds (reads? looks?) like his town self, I get chairs vote on Robz he's a slight scum read for me too, null for yuma and volt, chairs is newbie town-ish, and i am town.

I think that's everyone.

[shraeye]

Eevee is now replacing spiritbears.  But busy times are busy, so give that poor soul some time to catch up, yes?

[Eevee]

Hi guys! I haven't been reading much, maybe I should start with just day 2 to get to the swing of things faster?

[liopoil]

maybe read D2 first, but I mean, you should probably read D1 eventually...

[Voltaire]

Both yuma and Robz are finding people scummy for things they themselves are doing.