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[chairs]

Well, whining about it doesn't help I guess.

The post right before the one I'm quoting here is whining about it a bit, then he posts this, why bother to grump grump nevermind in two posts?  There was an argument about whether or not it was an overreaction on purpose (because of potential re-scumming) post-reset, and it's continued to weigh on my mind that the lady doth protest too much.

[spiritbears]

Yeah, geez, unvote for now.

Chairs throwing out the fact that he has scumreads on half the other players makes his scumreads kind of meaningless at this point.

Why exactly do you find mcmc scummy, chairs?  And lio, and SB?  You didn't really provide reasons for any of your reads.

I'm going to try to make sure I don't miss any quotes this time, and I'll try to detail my suspicions.

First off: mcmcsalot seems to be making a VT claim in what I had quoted; as there's no reason to make a VT claim ever, it seems reasonable to believe that he is more likely than not scum.  As this is Day 1, my normal strategy (with folks that I play with IRL) is to head towards a no-lynch, but as I've been advised this is a terrible idea in practice by folks who have played this game more often than myself, I felt that as the one who the argument could be made most strongly for, he'd have my vote.  That being said, forum Mafia's a bit of a different beast than I'm used to (we're making decisions in days, rather than minutes) so I can see the justification/argument made for an Unvote until we can attempt to gather more evidence.

Second: spiritbears.  His liopoil voting seems... odd.. and his posting in general somewhat erratic (which in my IRL games has usually suggested someone trying to sound random enough that any potential scumpost comes off as just random).  He's also potentially covering for mc's VT claim - see:

I think some people here are trying extra hard to read scum into mc's post. If you think that was a Vt claim, you are sadly mistaken imo.  And why the hell would his first post be exactly like his first post before the reset?!?!  No one should b making the same post over again....that would just be scummy

.  That being said, the arguments I have against spiritbears are softer ones than the argument that a soft VT claim implies scum, so I rated him lower than mc.

Third: liopoil.  It kind of feels like the below quote is to the detriment of our game, if RVS was useful in the first iteration, why wouldn't it be useful in the fresh game?  We've lost effectively all knowledge gained from the prior game other than perhaps something to compare posters to, so I don't understand why a little RVS wouldn't simply garner us additional information.  That said, this is (in my mind) still a very weak argument, but made him less neutral in my head compared to those who I didn't list.

I feel like the incident was handled well. You can't just kick out Yuma for accidentally seeing whatever he saw. It sucks for Spiritbears and Robz888 because they lost a chance to be scum (if they're town this time), and any PRs too. But reset was really the only option I can think of besides Yuma being replaced. And how would shraeye explain the need for Yuma to be replaced? He couldn't say that he found out someone's alignment, because that means that he was town (scum already know everyone's alignment).

anyway, it's good to be back, that lull was boooooring!

I'm fine with skipping RVS, we did that last time, no need to do it again.

Here ya go lio. Not sure how you missed this when we have been commenting on it...
Does that clear up my position at all?

[spiritbears]

Sorry misplaced my quote. But my comment at end of that.  Chairs above...

[Robz888]

OMGUS.

[Robz888]

Pretty classic. Pretty scummy.

[spiritbears]

Pretty classic. Pretty scummy.

I ageee it looks scummy. But I wonder if even a newbie would be this obvious.  I mean if were anyone else we would say...look how purposefully scummy this guy is....must be a front.
But the evidence is stacking up...

[Voltaire]

Someone tell me why I should believe the wagon on chairs. I see his actions as the scummy play of newbie town. I'm open to voting for him, but I don't have nearly enough reason to do so right now.

I very much like what lio's doing in 289. It's related to trying to slow down the chairs wagon, which I support for now (see above), but

If a player does thing you deem townie no matter what their alignment, then there's something wrong with what you deem townie. If a player does the same thing every game then them doing the same thing again has got to be a null read.

is also very nice. Thought-out posts, etc. etc. Townread on lio for now (even though I disagree with his mcmc vote)

And actually I'm going to vote: yuma (gentle wagon pusher). Voting for him again like last time but for realz this time!

[yuma]

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

So you are suspicious of me for doing the exact same thing you are doing here? Being suspicious and not voting? Except for one crucial detail... I am voting. I am voting for mail-mi. Who I think is more likely to be scummy at this juncture than Robz--I didn't push for his wagon at all, I asked what people thought about his reaction to the game starting--and just as scummy as chairs, except that I have had experience with town and scum mail-mi and know him a bit better and don't know chairs at all...

Whereas you aren't voting for anyone... so who is scummy for this alleged scummy behavior? You or me? In this context I would in fact say it is you... but I don't think it is scummy behavior. I think it is normal town behavior to probe and try and create conversation... so no FOS but shame: voltaire for trying to inhibit scum hunting.

PPE: although now I see that you have voted... but my point still stands above.

[yuma]

OK, caught up. I am going away from my computer in a bit, so if anyone has questions about this post, please know I won't be able to answer them for several hours.

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

I am also wary of yuma, mostly because he seemed to agree about chairs being scummy, but then voting mail-mi and found mail-mi scummier, which I strongly disagree with. But I mean the only scenario where this makes any sense would be yuma/chairs scumteam, so okay, that's not great evidence. I still like my case on chairs an awful lot though, and I don't think what mail-mi said was that scummy.

I do find chairs scummy, but on an equal plain with mail-mi. And so I am voting for mail-mi for two reasons. First I know mail-mi and am more confident I can spot scum in him than in chairs who I don't know. Second, I have often been against lynching a new player day1 unless their is an obvious reason or there isn't anyone else compelling to vote for. That has always been how I have played... and I think it is fair. Right now chairs isn't anymore obviously scum to me than mail-mi and I won't be voting for him unless it becomes extremely obvious that he is mafia or that there isn't anyone else that we can lynch. I remember you having this same sort of thought process in earlier games. Are you so confident that chairs is mafia that you are abandoning it? Or do you just not play that way anymore (not a judgement, if people don't want to play that way, it is OK, but it is my preferred style of playing)

[Voltaire]

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

So you are suspicious of me for doing the exact same thing you are doing here? Being suspicious and not voting? Except for one crucial detail... I am voting. I am voting for mail-mi. Who I think is more likely to be scummy at this juncture than Robz--I didn't push for his wagon at all, I asked what people thought about his reaction to the game starting--and just as scummy as chairs, except that I have had experience with town and scum mail-mi and know him a bit better and don't know chairs at all...

Whereas you aren't voting for anyone... so who is scummy for this alleged scummy behavior? You or me? In this context I would in fact say it is you... but I don't think it is scummy behavior. I think it is normal town behavior to probe and try and create conversation... so no FOS but shame: voltaire for trying to inhibit scum hunting.

PPE: although now I see that you have voted... but my point still stands above.

Yes. I am actually in agreement with you about this. But I also know that scumYuma is seven kinds of clever and would use this tactic to get something started as scum. It's my usual voting strategy (vote after moving through several levels of subtle) and I'm standing by it (for now). I do like what you're doing - your play has been helpful - but hasn't made you town in my eyes (which is probably a mess based on saying I like lio's statement [but this game is a mess, woo!]).

Also - shame, really?

I'll go re-read mail-mi stuff as he's one of the players I currently can't differentiate from anyone else. Who else am I missing in my head...sb and nkirbit.

[yuma]

Pretty classic. Pretty scummy.

I tend to think OMGUS to be more a universal reaction rather than a scum play. Or rather, scum do it just as often as town and for me it is rarely indicative of alignment. Because the natural reaction to someone voting for you is to vote for them back, as either town or mafia. Especially as a new player who might not realize the problem that comes with it.

You really seem to be forcing this idea of a chair lynch through... for someone who is supposed to be really unsure of himself in terms of scum hunting... (not making fun, just repeating what you yourself have said in previous games....) you are being extremely confident on day1 and on a player who you have never played with before.

[liopoil]

Our deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Monday, July 3rd I believe.

I'm not liking chairs vote on Robz888, it does seem like OMGUS. that doesn't make him scum though. I see what you're talking about SB. So he mentions it again. Why would he want to emphasize it? It seems like he's more saying "I'm a bit disoriented, because this forum mafia thing is weird, I dunno what to do because we aren't no lynching". I don't think he is filling up his paragraph to make it look like he's saying more than he is. chairs has contributed a fair enough amount, he doesn't need to do that. The only claim that he's scummy that I could see making on that is that maybe he's trying to say "Sorry guys, I'm new to this and have no clue what to do, so if I'm do something stupid don't assume I'm scum," but really, I just think he really is just getting used to the way it works around here.

It seems I do not have any support on mcmc. I'm willing to let that go for now, no point pushing something that won't happen. I will Vote: Mail-mi instead. like other's have mentioned, this post:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

Is super-convenient for scum. In this post, he says very little, not drawing attention to himself (well, that didn't work out), he takes the stance of defending someone which will look good once he flips town (if he's town), and at the same time, fans the flames for the wagon to continue. He has said that this was just his thought process, however, at the end of this, he does not come to a conclusion. As of this post, he can go either way on mcmc without being accused of flipping. In other words, he's hedging.

PPE: 4

[yuma]

Also - shame, really?

Couldn't think of anything else to call it on the fly. Because it wasn't a FOS or a vote... it was a grrrr! So I don't actually want you to feel shame... but I want you to know that I think that sort of train of thought inhibits town's ability to scum hunt... because ultimately I am affected by how town views me. I am. I am going to remember your post and remember what you said and it will affect how I scum hunt. It is unfortunate. I wish I was a person who didn't care what other people think, but I am. Because I want to stay alive (not get mislynch) and I want to lynch mafia (and to do so I have to convince people like you, but if you think I am mafia... I am not going to be able to convince you)... so your post makes it somewhat harder for me to scum hunt because I am going to be thinking... is voltaire and others going to find this scummy that I am pointing out something suspicious, but not voting? And that stunts me somewhat. You see....? Grrrrr.....

[Voltaire]

Also - shame, really?

Couldn't think of anything else to call it on the fly. Because it wasn't a FOS or a vote... it was a grrrr! So I don't actually want you to feel shame... but I want you to know that I think that sort of train of thought inhibits town's ability to scum hunt... because ultimately I am affected by how town views me. I am. I am going to remember your post and remember what you said and it will affect how I scum hunt. It is unfortunate. I wish I was a person who didn't care what other people think, but I am. Because I want to stay alive (not get mislynch) and I want to lynch mafia (and to do so I have to convince people like you, but if you think I am mafia... I am not going to be able to convince you)... so your post makes it somewhat harder for me to scum hunt because I am going to be thinking... is voltaire and others going to find this scummy that I am pointing out something suspicious, but not voting? And that stunts me somewhat. You see....? Grrrrr.....

Of course. I can totally support Grrrr:Voltaire (from your point of view).

Lio has once again summarized why I don't like the chairs wagon. And yuma why I don't like Robz's push for the chairs wagon. It doesn't give me a scum read on Robz, it just gives me a Grrrr:Robz.

At the moment I'm leaning town on mcmc, chairs, lio, and Robz. Leaning scum on yuma. More confident on the town reads than the scum read.

Now I need to stop keeping current on the thread and re-read like I said, because I currently have null reads on mail-mi, sb, and nkirbit because I can't remember them much.

[chairs]

Our deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Monday, July 3rd I believe.

I'm not liking chairs vote on Robz888, it does seem like OMGUS. that doesn't make him scum though. I see what you're talking about SB. So he mentions it again. Why would he want to emphasize it? It seems like he's more saying "I'm a bit disoriented, because this forum mafia thing is weird, I dunno what to do because we aren't no lynching". I don't think he is filling up his paragraph to make it look like he's saying more than he is. chairs has contributed a fair enough amount, he doesn't need to do that. The only claim that he's scummy that I could see making on that is that maybe he's trying to say "Sorry guys, I'm new to this and have no clue what to do, so if I'm do something stupid don't assume I'm scum," but really, I just think he really is just getting used to the way it works around here.

It seems I do not have any support on mcmc. I'm willing to let that go for now, no point pushing something that won't happen. I will Vote: Mail-mi instead. like other's have mentioned, this post:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

Is super-convenient for scum. In this post, he says very little, not drawing attention to himself (well, that didn't work out), he takes the stance of defending someone which will look good once he flips town (if he's town), and at the same time, fans the flames for the wagon to continue. He has said that this was just his thought process, however, at the end of this, he does not come to a conclusion. As of this post, he can go either way on mcmc without being accused of flipping. In other words, he's hedging.

PPE: 4

My confusion here is that July 3rd isn't a Monday, unless my calendar is wrong.

[shraeye]

Note the date change

Vote Count 1.5

mail-mi (2): yuma, liopoil
chairs (3): Robz888, spiritbears, nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
yuma (1): Voltaire

Not voting: mcmcsalot, mail-mi

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

[mail-mi]

Ready, set, reactions!

Chairs wagon: meh. He doesn't strike me as super scummy. Also I agree with yumas stance.

My wagon: yep I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that.

Reads:

Right now, chairs is on the more scummy side and mcmc on the townier side, but only barely. don't know about Robz, he's always changing everything up.

[spiritbears]

unvote
The more I think about it
The less likely  I think it is that a
First game chair would get a scum role

[nkirbit]

unvote
The more I think about it
The less likely  I think it is that a
First game chair would get a scum role

This is a bad reason.  He's just as likely to be scum or town as anyone else.  This isn't mean girls.

[mail-mi]

Noir it doesn't have as much of a presence as I'm used to him having. I think I'll go reread him.

[mail-mi]

Noir it = nkirbit

[yuma]

unvote
The more I think about it
The less likely  I think it is that a
First game chair would get a scum role

Yes. A good mod--and I think shraeye is a good mod--should be using a random number generator to assign alignment and roles, so their isn't anyone's bias to skew the results.

[mail-mi]

From my quick reread I have a null to scummyish read on nkirbit. And the scummyish part of it is just because he hasn't had as much of a presence here than usual.

[Robz888]

Pretty classic. Pretty scummy.

I tend to think OMGUS to be more a universal reaction rather than a scum play. Or rather, scum do it just as often as town and for me it is rarely indicative of alignment. Because the natural reaction to someone voting for you is to vote for them back, as either town or mafia. Especially as a new player who might not realize the problem that comes with it.

You really seem to be forcing this idea of a chair lynch through... for someone who is supposed to be really unsure of himself in terms of scum hunting... (not making fun, just repeating what you yourself have said in previous games....) you are being extremely confident on day1 and on a player who you have never played with before.

Okay, who OMGUses? I agree that veteran scum does not typically OMGUS, or does not OMGUS more than veteran town, at least. But for a newbie? Yeah, I think newbie scum would OMGUS. I know I have done it. I can think of others doing it.

The second part of your argument... whatever, I think I am on to something.

[Robz888]

unvote
The more I think about it
The less likely  I think it is that a
First game chair would get a scum role

This reasoning is false and invalid.