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Author Topic: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 3)  (Read 97280 times)

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nkirbit

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #275 on: June 23, 2013, 09:23:20 am »

and then there is this:
Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)


I'm not sure what to think of this.  I used this same logic as town in the last blitz game when deciding to vote insomniac over Eevee (although I was mistaken), and have thought the same thing when analyzing wagons.  Mail-mi may or may not be correct, but I don't think having that line of thought makes him scummy.

The "although this was a suspicious post" is what's making me nervous, though.  The two sentences are at odds with each other.. it seems off to point out something as scummy the sentence after you concluded that it was unlikely the person was scum.  I'm not sure if I should be reading it as scum!mail-mi trying to misdirect or town!mail-mi just saying what he thinks in a stream of consciousness sort of way.  I'll keep both in mind.
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yuma

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #276 on: June 23, 2013, 09:39:06 am »

and then there is this:
Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)


I'm not sure what to think of this.  I used this same logic as town in the last blitz game when deciding to vote insomniac over Eevee (although I was mistaken), and have thought the same thing when analyzing wagons.  Mail-mi may or may not be correct, but I don't think having that line of thought makes him scummy.

The "although this was a suspicious post" is what's making me nervous, though.  The two sentences are at odds with each other.. it seems off to point out something as scummy the sentence after you concluded that it was unlikely the person was scum.  I'm not sure if I should be reading it as scum!mail-mi trying to misdirect or town!mail-mi just saying what he thinks in a stream of consciousness sort of way.  I'll keep both in mind.

Exactly... w/o the later statement, it is just mail-mi saying that he thinks the wagon formed on mcmc too fast. Anyone can say that. Town or mafia. So it isn't the line of thought that is scummy. It is its juxtaposition to his next statement, which alone also isn't that suspicious of a statement. Add together both the first and second statement and all of a sudden the second gives potential meaning to the first. But you are right... stream of consciousness or trying to be on both sides of the coin? I am not sure, but I am willing to try and find out more based off this alone...
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yuma

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #277 on: June 23, 2013, 09:43:21 am »

I really have to wonder about chairs.  Not just the folding kind.  But the kind here that keep bringing up a scummy move, even after they have been told we view it as beneficial to scum not town....trying too hard to make mc look scummy while deflecting it's (are chairs of the male persuasion?) scummiwh move (working toward no-lynch).
vote chase lounges

I agree with nkirbit, working toward a no-lynch isn't going to happen. I think chairs knows this. But like I said above. What I found scummy was that he started out talking about mcmc and moved that paragraph very quickly away from mcmc--w/o explaining why he found him to be scummy, even though that was the exact thing that he was posting for having been called out previously by lio? for not offering explanations--toward the no-lynch idea...

I see it like this... need to talk about my scum read on mcmc... I don't really have a scum read on mcmc. Let's see, he claimed VT that is something, what else, nothing... hmm. this paragraph is too short, let's talk about something else... I just talk about no-lynching and not really say anything new here and hope that it fills up the paragraph enough so that no one will notice.... (I mean I dont' think chairs was thinking that exactly, but that idea of trying to put more in than is necessary to fill up a post and make it look like you are doing something and having good pro-town thoughts is a position mafia finds themselves in far too often...
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #278 on: June 23, 2013, 10:42:31 am »

Okay woah, I definitely wasn't claiming vt, that was a statement because in mean girls I was a jk who was behind and last secon jail kept my scum read instead of an ic, and then I got claimed against and lynched. So I was super excited to play jk again and actually be usefull(I do think it is one of the strongest roles along with cop) so the game being cancelled simple meat no more jk for me a second time. That says nothing about my current role.

Someone else asked why I felt Yuma was town and liopoil scummy. If you remember I had a scum read on Yuma and a town on liopoil when the reset started liopoil seemed off(I mean his opening posts felt like forced participation) I think if we were ever going to get a time where scum was going to not know how to act it would be here getting rolled into scum in a reset game. It could e because liopoil was very helpful and starting up conversation in the first game and lio didn't know how to do that again. But to me he started this game off just trying to be there but not really giving original content and creating discussion.

Where as Yuma this game I felt he came out right away using any and all tools to analyze how people would act and where we may catch scum, overall being protown, which this early is enough to give me a town read.

Lastly my town read on sb. I'm not giving him free town cred, I meant it like this: last game I had a strong town read I spirit bears, I felt he was being very protown, he turned out to be scum. So my instinct would be to say whenever spiritbears is really protown he has to be scum, the issue wit that is he has been very protown as town before. So to remedy this I am just going to continue to find him towny for the things I except to be towny traits and will not find him scummy unless he does something to merit a scum read.
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nkirbit

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #279 on: June 23, 2013, 10:48:10 am »

I think it would've been funny to see how it played out, with Yuma knowing at least one person's alignment for sure, but nobody being able to confirm that Yuma wasn't actually scum.

HOWEVER!

Back to RVS.

Vote: liopoil

Scratch that, I just read liopoil's post again where he said not to bother with RVS.

Unvote

However, opting to skip the opportunity to perhaps gain more insight towards who the new scum are... could be scummy.

ET TU LIOPOIL?

This reads as Chair's being a little too eager to please to me.  Essentially undoing something at the request of another player, especially when that player doesn't have a good reason to do so, is odd.
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #280 on: June 23, 2013, 01:17:21 pm »

Hey everyone. Wasn't anticipating to be away from my computer yesterday, but I was! Need to catch up on the last 2.5 pages or so.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #281 on: June 23, 2013, 01:25:08 pm »

Is no one else on chairs? Do people disagree with me? He made a really scummy move. Remember that this is his first game, where if he is scum, he is likely to make accidental scum moves.
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #282 on: June 23, 2013, 01:48:13 pm »

OK, caught up. I am going away from my computer in a bit, so if anyone has questions about this post, please know I won't be able to answer them for several hours.

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

I have a town read on mcmc. Frustration about losing a specific cool PR is understandable and also a huge mistake. It's a scummy move by town in my opinion.

I usually have a scumread on Robz (sorry Robz!) and I have one again now, so I'm doing like mcmc says about sb and assuming Robz is town, for now. (The scumread is that yuma talked me into thinking Robz's frustration could be a gambit, and that made me think "Of course! Robz is always being scummy!" and then I remembered that townRobz is always being scummy).

Honestly, everyone else is a null read at this point. I'll need to re-read again, but closer.

I am very happy the game is moving along as it has. Stuff is happening, and stuff is good for town. Go stuff!
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #283 on: June 23, 2013, 03:24:53 pm »

OK, caught up. I am going away from my computer in a bit, so if anyone has questions about this post, please know I won't be able to answer them for several hours.

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

I am also wary of yuma, mostly because he seemed to agree about chairs being scummy, but then voting mail-mi and found mail-mi scummier, which I strongly disagree with. But I mean the only scenario where this makes any sense would be yuma/chairs scumteam, so okay, that's not great evidence. I still like my case on chairs an awful lot though, and I don't think what mail-mi said was that scummy.
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nkirbit

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #284 on: June 23, 2013, 03:30:44 pm »

Robz, I do have issues with chairs.  It's odd that he came out with reads of half the other people in the game being scummy after giving no reads in the original game.  It's especially odd that he found Yuma scummy, and when pressed about it, backed off and said "oh, it was a post in the previous game, never mind."  Surely, if you're going to put someone out there, you're going to be more careful, right? (Although, that being said, that mistake would be more common for someone who plays mafia in person, where you're going entirely off of memory).  I think it's odd how he backed off his RVS vote at Lio's request.  He's done a lot of things that appear scummy to me.

I'm just a little bit worried that the case is "too easy".  Maybe I'm overthinking it, though.
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nkirbit

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #285 on: June 23, 2013, 03:32:39 pm »

I don't have much experience with in-person mafia, having only played a few broken games, but the wagoning on mcmc also feels like something an IRL scum would do.  I don't know how often a large wagon builds on a player early then collapses.. it happens all the time online, but does that sort of thing happen in real life, or would mcmc have been doomed to be the lynch?  If someone with more IRL experience could answer this, that'd be helpful.
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nkirbit

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #286 on: June 23, 2013, 03:36:00 pm »

Vote: Chairs
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chairs

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #287 on: June 23, 2013, 04:16:34 pm »

Wow, lots of talk :)  And a vote for me  :-\

I suppose I do look awfully scummy, don't I?

To attempt to (quickly) address the 2-3 points I think I read re: myself...

1) I unvoted because I'm not used to the vote/unvote concept being binding, as when I have played Mafia IRL we discuss and no vote/unvote mechanism exists, so "vote: x" in my IRL equivalents happens during discussion but is not a binding vote (a key difference that lets you be as "yeah it's this guy and he's who I'd vote for" during my IRL experience that is not the case here) as we usually just have 5-10 minutes discussion and then "turn in a slip with your vote".  The N-1 situation made that more clear for me.

2) I hope 1 explains my bandwagon sufficiently; if not, I don't have much else to say in that regard.

3) I'll try to take advantage of the fact that I can go back to everything you guys say instead of just "Yeah that seems wrong" which is how I'm used to playing.  Forum mafia is awfully :science: compared to the relatively short games I'm used to.

mail-mi

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #288 on: June 23, 2013, 05:33:30 pm »

and then there is this:
Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)


I'm not sure what to think of this.  I used this same logic as town in the last blitz game when deciding to vote insomniac over Eevee (although I was mistaken), and have thought the same thing when analyzing wagons.  Mail-mi may or may not be correct, but I don't think having that line of thought makes him scummy.

The "although this was a suspicious post" is what's making me nervous, though.  The two sentences are at odds with each other.. it seems off to point out something as scummy the sentence after you concluded that it was unlikely the person was scum.  I'm not sure if I should be reading it as scum!mail-mi trying to misdirect or town!mail-mi just saying what he thinks in a stream of consciousness sort of way.  I'll keep both in mind.

Exactly... w/o the later statement, it is just mail-mi saying that he thinks the wagon formed on mcmc too fast. Anyone can say that. Town or mafia. So it isn't the line of thought that is scummy. It is its juxtaposition to his next statement, which alone also isn't that suspicious of a statement. Add together both the first and second statement and all of a sudden the second gives potential meaning to the first. But you are right... stream of consciousness or trying to be on both sides of the coin? I am not sure, but I am willing to try and find out more based off this alone...
It was just a stream of thought. First thought: that wagon formed really quickly, I don't think mcmc is scum. Second thought: but that was a suspicious post. Hm.

Right now I have a townish read on mcmc because scum mcmc is calm cool and collecting. Town mcmc is more clumsy.
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liopoil

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #289 on: June 23, 2013, 07:45:46 pm »

Commenting on many posts. I trimmed quotes for clarity and succinctness:
about mcmc's post:

People are calling this out as a VT-claim. It obviously isn't a claim...

Thus I am now pretty suspicious of people who voted for mcmc.... lio, robz, nkirtib and chairs.

Lio voted, but not about the claim.
Robz has a policy vote... I get policy votes... I do them for self voting, but they are also a good place to cover yourself. I have voted for someone as mafia for self voting and it was nice because I could hide my vote that way.
nkirbit's is also a policy vote apparently, but he doesn't have the history of policy voting in such a way.
chairs.... his vote is the most suspicious.

... He starts off talking about mcmc, but doens't expalin why it makes him more likely to be scum but in the end says very little of the paragraph about mcmc.  I have done this before as mafia. Where I start out with a read and end up moving the topic of conversation away from that read within the paragraph...

and then there is this:
Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

so right now I am most suspicious of mail-mi and chairs...

I'll vote for either... vote: mail-mi
Agreed it is clearly not a claim, and yes, like you said, I voted mcmc for different reasons. those were that the reasons he states later in the posts for things I feel to be very weak. He's clarified his reasoning in a later post, which I'll address later.

I don't think that your point on chairs is all too strong. all you say is that he went off on a tangent in the middle of his paragraph. Sure, scum can do that on purpose, but town can also accidentally go off on tangents. I read that as virtually null.

I agree with your point on mail-mi. I'll add that if mcmc is scum, it's still scummy, because it could very easily be defending his buddy. I'm not calling the scumteam, just saying that mail-mi's post is scummy no matter what mcmc's alignment is.

I really have to wonder about chairs.  Not just the folding kind.  But the kind here that keep bringing up a scummy move, even after they have been told we view it as beneficial to scum not town....trying too hard to make mc look scummy while deflecting it's (are chairs of the male persuasion?) scummiwh move (working toward no-lynch).
vote chase lounges
wait, what? Chairs hasn't mentioned no-lynch this game I think, and didn't exactly work towards a no-lynch last game either!

Someone else asked why I felt Yuma was town and liopoil scummy. If you remember I had a scum read on Yuma and a town on liopoil when the reset started liopoil seemed off(I mean his opening posts felt like forced participation) I think if we were ever going to get a time where scum was going to not know how to act it would be here getting rolled into scum in a reset game. It could e because liopoil was very helpful and starting up conversation in the first game and lio didn't know how to do that again. But to me he started this game off just trying to be there but not really giving original content and creating discussion.

Where as Yuma this game I felt he came out right away using any and all tools to analyze how people would act and where we may catch scum, overall being protown, which this early is enough to give me a town read.

Lastly my town read on sb. I'm not giving him free town cred, I meant it like this: last game I had a strong town read I spirit bears, I felt he was being very protown, he turned out to be scum. So my instinct would be to say whenever spiritbears is really protown he has to be scum, the issue wit that is he has been very protown as town before. So to remedy this I am just going to continue to find him towny for the things I except to be towny traits and will not find him scummy unless he does something to merit a scum read.
You didn't have a townread on me last game, you put me on the scummy side, as always:
Slight Scum:
liopoil --explanation here--

I think I contributed at the start enough. There was hardly anything to say. Last time because there was nothing to say so I was all jokey and smiley. I didn't do that this time. And there you go again, "he seems off". I always seem off, I guess I play each game differently. Robz jumped on me right at the start last game for being jokey and smiley. In DS9 I was town and was always on the lower end of the posting. I was the biggest poster in Bankers while I was alive, and in mean girls I had the most posts of any town-aligned player by a ton. playing each game differently I think is a good move and shouldn't be scummy.

Dude, you can't read yuma based on his level of analysis and contributions, he will ALWAYS post big helpful posts. people need to stop giving him towncred for that, it makes it too easy for him when he's scum.

Again for SB: If a player does thing you deem townie no matter what their alignment, then there's something wrong with what you deem townie. If a player does the same thing every game then them doing the same thing again has got to be a null read.

I put my vote on Mcmc because I disagreed with the way he is reasoning. Even when I don't agree with town!mcmc's conclusions, I always understand the way he came to those conclusions, and agree with his method, just disagree with the 'evidence' he used to reason with. Here, I don't agree with his reasoning at all. scum!mcmc has to make reasoning up because he knows the people he accuses are town. I think it makes sense for this to be the case, and I am keeping my vote on him for now.

Is no one else on chairs? Do people disagree with me? He made a really scummy move. Remember that this is his first game, where if he is scum, he is likely to make accidental scum moves.
Nope, don't really think that was too scummy of a move. you say his mcmc vote was "wagoning" and "dangerous". I assume you mean in regard to him putting mcmc at L-1. I think it reasonable that he didn't realize he was putting him at L-1, or that he didn't think that was too big of a deal. slightly scummy at best.

First thought: that wagon formed really quickly, I don't think mcmc is scum. Second thought: but that was a suspicious post. Hm.

Right now I have a townish read on mcmc because scum mcmc is calm cool and collecting. Town mcmc is more clumsy.
...but not because the wagon formed quickly? And I haven't seen much to suggest that mcmc is more clumsy as town...
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shraeye

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #290 on: June 23, 2013, 10:06:01 pm »

Vote Count 1.4

mcmcsalot (1): liopoil
mail-mi (1): yuma
chairs (3): Robz888, spiritbears, nkirbit

Not voting: Voltaire, mcmcsalot, chairs, mail-mi

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 11:40:12 am by shraeye »
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #291 on: June 23, 2013, 10:42:07 pm »

Is no one else on chairs? Do people disagree with me? He made a really scummy move. Remember that this is his first game, where if he is scum, he is likely to make accidental scum moves.
Nope, don't really think that was too scummy of a move. you say his mcmc vote was "wagoning" and "dangerous". I assume you mean in regard to him putting mcmc at L-1. I think it reasonable that he didn't realize he was putting him at L-1, or that he didn't think that was too big of a deal. slightly scummy at best.

Why are you covering for him?
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spiritbears

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #292 on: June 23, 2013, 11:49:51 pm »

I your a little confused lio. (And nk to  A lesser extent)
My problem with chairs is not that I think it's actually working toward no-lynch,
But that he has brought it up....again.
Its like he wanted to emphasize it so we can all say...gee that's not that scummy after all.
iYuma referred to it as filling his post just to fill it...appear he was contributing
And lio is still high on my scum reads...recliner is just higher
Mc--typical town mc. If he's scum, hrs doing s very good job

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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #293 on: June 24, 2013, 12:09:22 am »

I your a little confused lio. (And nk to  A lesser extent)
My problem with chairs is not that I think it's actually working toward no-lynch,
But that he has brought it up....again.
Its like he wanted to emphasize it so we can all say...gee that's not that scummy after all.
iYuma referred to it as filling his post just to fill it...appear he was contributing
And lio is still high on my scum reads...recliner is just higher
Mc--typical town mc. If he's scum, hrs doing s very good job

I don't get this (bold added for emphasis). He is usually scum and he usually does a very good job at being scum.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #294 on: June 24, 2013, 07:11:05 am »

tempted to liopoil, only because he is almost always right on my alignment and he isn't here.
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spiritbears

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #295 on: June 24, 2013, 07:46:18 am »

I your a little confused lio. (And nk to  A lesser extent)
My problem with chairs is not that I think it's actually working toward no-lynch,
But that he has brought it up....again.
Its like he wanted to emphasize it so we can all say...gee that's not that scummy after all.
iYuma referred to it as filling his post just to fill it...appear he was contributing
And lio is still high on my scum reads...recliner is just higher
Mc--typical town mc. If he's scum, hrs doing s very good job

I don't get this (bold added for emphasis). He is usually scum and he usually does a very good job at being scum.
Since when is he "usually" scum? I've seem him play both several times, and of course he's good at scum  too.  I wasn't saying he wouldn't be.  I merely said if he's scum he's doing a very good job at faking it.
Now. On to your (over)reaction to my little observation. Normally scum would try and push something like that...
But here it's robzzz the king of pushing overreactions....
Likely townrobz trying to get an overreaction.
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chairs

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #296 on: June 24, 2013, 08:54:06 am »

Vote: Robz888

chairs

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #297 on: June 24, 2013, 08:57:22 am »

Err, actually, can I get some clarification on when voting period is over?  I thought today was it, but I went back to be sure and it says Monday July 3rd... But that's a Wednesday.

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #298 on: June 24, 2013, 09:09:50 am »

chairs, why did you vote for robz?

SB, I must have missed where he said that, can you show it to me?

Robz, I'm not covering for him, I just don't find that particular comment of his particularly incriminating. All he did was put mcmc at L-1.
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chairs

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Re: Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics (Day 1 start)
« Reply #299 on: June 24, 2013, 09:21:53 am »

chairs, why did you vote for robz?

SB, I must have missed where he said that, can you show it to me?

Robz, I'm not covering for him, I just don't find that particular comment of his particularly incriminating. All he did was put mcmc at L-1.

This time I'll pull in quotes, though if we clarify that we still have a week the argument could be made for a change of mind.

Is no one else on chairs? Do people disagree with me? He made a really scummy move. Remember that this is his first game, where if he is scum, he is likely to make accidental scum moves.
Nope, don't really think that was too scummy of a move. you say his mcmc vote was "wagoning" and "dangerous". I assume you mean in regard to him putting mcmc at L-1. I think it reasonable that he didn't realize he was putting him at L-1, or that he didn't think that was too big of a deal. slightly scummy at best.

Why are you covering for him?

I'd add more but the topic summary doesn't let me go back further (I can try to find additional posts and add them in a fresh post).  He seems to be beating the chairs drum the most, and I figure either he legitimately thinks I'm scum or he's pushing for a mislynch (which would suggest scum).  I suppose the third possibility is that he's looking for reactions from the proverbial peanut gallery, in which case he got one, at least from me.  I hope it helps.  I also thought we were at ~24 hours to D1 end and as I"m at work there's a real possibility I wouldn't necessarily get the opportunity to post for the rest of the day (I should really be working instead of typing, etc etc) so I wanted to ensure I'd cast a lot towards someone I thought at least seemed scummy.
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