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[shraeye]

neato, it's Mafia XXVI: Back to Basics

Signup process:
This game will be using the 2of4 setup (because it's simple, duh), and will support 9 players.  It's possible that more want to signup and all will be able to; after some amount of time (I'm aiming for 7 days), signups will close, and I will randomly choose the 9 players from the set of players that have signed up (there will also be at least one spot for an "auto-sub" who will not be invited to the Speccy QT, assuming somebody is interested in filling that role).  This will help keep a short, simple, fun game going smoothly.

Because there will likely be players who wanted to play but were not able to it would be rather rude to signup, nab a spot, and then proceed to not post.  So if you are granted a spot, you are expected to at least pretend to play.  Any player who doesn't post for a 48-hr period without announcing some sort of V/LA will be replaced by an auto-sub (or first PM to me from a non-player, if no auto-sub is available).

Player List
1. spiritbears/Eevee
2. chairs
3. liopoil
4. yuma
5. mcmcsalot
6. Robz888 (Mafia Goon)--Lynched Day2
7. Voltaire
8. nkirbit (Vanilla Townie)--Lynched Day1
9. mail-mi

Handy navigation!
Day1 start
Day2 start
Day3 start




Basic Mafia Ruleset (shameless thievery, don't report me).
Some text bolded for emphasis, or to highlight minor changes from what one might consider 'standard'.

The Golden Rule:
Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Game Rules:
General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind.  Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.  Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to the mod by the posted deadline.  If I do not receive your PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions.  In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 30 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax!  Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority (rounded up) of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post.  This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
8. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.
9.  Each game 'day' will last about 2 weeks, and each game 'night' will last 2 days.

Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Blue text is reserved for the Mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically after 36 hours of no activity or upon request if the mod deems the absence 'long enough'.  A prodded player has 12 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.

Helpful Links:

• Main Wiki Page
  
• Newbie Guide
  
• Frequently Asked Questions
  
• Commonly Used Abbreviations
  
• Mafia Theory

TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

[shraeye]

Game Setup:

2of4 setup: 9 players

• 1 Mafia Rolecop
• 1 Mafia Goon
• 5 Vanilla Townies
• 2 of the following (randomly chosen with no duplicates)
• 1 Town Cop
• 1 Town Doctor
• 1 Town Jailkeeper
• 1 Vanilla Townie

Note: The Mafia must choose which player submits the night-kill; the Mafia Rolecop may submit an investigation AND night-kill, if desired.

Role PMs
MAFIA

You are the Mafia Goon, along with <player>, who is the Mafia Rolecop.

During each 'Night' phase, both of you may talk among yourselves here to devise your strategy for the next day. You may also talk prior to the beginning of the game. You may not talk to each other during any 'Day' phase.

You both also have the ability to kill one player during the night. You must designate which mafia member will do the night-kill

You win when the mafia exceed the number of town players left in the game, or when nothing is able to consistently prevent that from happening.

If you have read and understood your role, please confirm via PM by stating your role.

You are the Mafia Rolecop, along with <player>, who is the Mafia Goon.

During each 'Night' phase, both of you may talk among yourselves here to devise your strategy for the next day. You may also talk prior to the beginning of the game. You may not talk to each other during any 'Day' phase.

You may also investigate another player each night to determine their role (whether they are a vanilla townie, doctor, cop, or jailkeeper)

You both also have the ability to kill one player during the night. You must designate which mafia member will do the night-kill

You win when the mafia exceed the number of town players left in the game, or when nothing is able to consistently prevent that from happening.

If you have read and understood your role, please confirm via PM by stating your role.

TOWNSFOLK

You are just a Vanilla Townie.  Though you have no special abilities, you do have the abilities (just like every other player) to post and vote each day. Use them wisely.

You win when all the mafia have been eliminated from the game.

If you have read and understood your role, please confirm via PM by stating your role

You are the Town Cop.  Every night you may investigate a player, and will receive notification as to whether or not they are Town-aligned or Mafia-aligned.

If your ability is blocked by the Jailkeeper, you will not receive any result.

You win when all the mafia have been eliminated from the game.

If you have read and understood your role, please confirm via PM by stating your role.

You are the Town Doctor.  Each night, you may choose someone who you will protect from the night-kill. This ONLY protects from the night-kill, and nothing else.

If your ability is blocked by the jailkeeper, you will receive no notification.

You win when all the mafia have been eliminated from the game.

If you have read and understood your role, please confirm via PM by stating your role.

You are the Town Jailkeeper.  Each night you may choose someone to keep in jail. This action will prevent any actions from being done to them, but will also prevent them from doing any actions.

You win when all the mafia have been eliminated from the game.

If you have read and understood your role, please confirm via PM by stating your role.

[nkirbit]

/in.

[ashersky]

/in

[ashersky]

Also, you are XXVI, not XXIV.

[liopoil]

/in

[raerae]

Tag, you're it!

[yuma]

/in

[mcmcsalot]

/in

[Robz888]

I feel bad signing up for this, being that I'm so far behind in my only game currently, but... I do want to play. /In!

[shraeye]

smaller games are much easier to keep up with.

[spiritbears]

/in

[spiritbears]

I feel bad signing up for this, being that I'm so far behind in my only game currently, but... I do want to play. /In!

Ahem.....

[nkirbit]

/out, for the moment, but I'd be happy to be a backup player.

[Voltaire]

I'd love to /in if I can. Simple is good - I burned myself out on RMMX with 395 players or whatever it was.

[shraeye]

Great to have you back!

[yuma]

I'd love to /in if I can. Simple is good - I burned myself out on RMMX with 395 players or whatever it was.

Hey! Welcome Back! We were kinda worried about you. After losing so many other players (we no longer have to call you "V" as voltgloss has up and disappeared along with a bunch of others) it is nice to have one come back!

[Voltaire]

Great to have you back!

Thanks guys! I felt so bad I left with no explanation that I just avoided the forums completely (which was easier than it should have been with iso going down). Which was not very good internet of me. Should be great to be back! 

[EFHW]

/tag, raerae's it!

[ashersky]

/out

[chairs]

/in

[Voltaire]

So close!

[shraeye]

/in

Hey and welcome!

[chairs]

/in

Hey and welcome!

Thanks Looking forward to this one!

[nkirbit]

What the hell, /in.

[yuma]

one more! tell your friends!

[mail-mi]

LET'S GET THIS STARTED IN HERE!

LET'S GET THIS STARTED IN HAH!

/in

[nkirbit]

LET'S GET THIS STARTED IN HERE!

LET'S GET THIS STARTED IN HAH!

/in

Hurrah!

[shraeye]

Well, criminy!  This is "full".  But by the way the signups are meant to be, I'll keep the window of opportunity open for a bit longer.  If we have extra signups, I'll randomize things a bit.  Plus, there will be some fun happening in the Spec QT (I hope, maybe), so it won't be so bad to "miss the cut".

[liopoil]

wooooo!

[spiritbears]

Well, criminy!  This is "full".  But by the way the signups are meant to be, I'll keep the window of opportunity open for a bit longer.  If we have extra signups, I'll randomize things a bit.  Plus, there will be some fun happening in the Spec QT (I hope, maybe), so it won't be so bad to "miss the cut".

Please don't wait for 7 days!!!!!  Like 25 hours is aplenty!

[liopoil]

It's possible that more want to signup and all will be able to; after some amount of time (I'm aiming for 7 days), signups will close, and I will randomly choose the 9 players from the set of players that have signed up

I think that means 7 days after sign-ups open... and that's in exactly 5 hours!

[mail-mi]

meanwhile, my game only has 4 signed up 

[Voltaire]

It's possible that more want to signup and all will be able to; after some amount of time (I'm aiming for 7 days), signups will close, and I will randomly choose the 9 players from the set of players that have signed up

I think that means 7 days after sign-ups open... and that's in exactly 5 hours!

Woohoo! I want to cast some random votes!

[liopoil]

well, even if shraeye does send PMs then, there will be the confirmation stage and letting scum talk in their QT and all that. So no votes today.

[Voltaire]

well, even if shraeye does send PMs then, there will be the confirmation stage and letting scum talk in their QT and all that. So no votes today.

OMGUS vote: liopoil

[liopoil]

oh, nevermind then.

[Voltaire]

oh, nevermind then.

unvote

[shraeye]

If we start that process right now, things will start too close to the day opening in Mean Girls Mafia.  I hate it when multiple games start new phases concurrently.  Some delay will happen, enough so that people are juuuuust beginning to froth at the mouth with excitement.

[yuma]

If we start that process right now, things will start too close to the day opening in Mean Girls Mafia.  I hate it when multiple games start new phases concurrently.  Some delay will happen, enough so that people are juuuuust beginning to froth at the mouth with excitement.

/frothing

[liopoil]

/frothing

[shraeye]

I don't buy it, you two.

[liopoil]

what?!? we can't be lying! we can't be scum yet, you haven't sent PMs!

[shraeye]

Everybody knows that town lies as well.

[liopoil]

Everybody knows that town lies as well.

but I'm not town yet either! besides, lying pre-game?

[chairs]

/frothygoodness

[shraeye]

liopoil, I always lie.

[nkirbit]

Everybody knows that town lies as well.

but I'm not town yet either! besides, lying pre-game?

Got to establish that meta, so you can get away with it as scum later!

[liopoil]

I'm not sure I want this guy as the mod then... 

[Voltaire]

I'm not sure I want this guy as the mod then... 

Surprise bastard mafia!

[shraeye]

I'm now accepting applications for backup players.

Game will start on Monday

[shraeye]

All these games, all this flavor, all these roles.  It's time to get a taste of the simple life again, welcome to
Back2Basics Mafia!

The players are
1. chairs
2. liopoil
3. mail-mi
4. mcmcsalot
5. nkirbit
6. Robz888
7. spiritbears
8. Voltaire
9. yuma

Since this game is just starting, here is your first votecount:
Vote Count 1.1


Not voting: chairs, liopoil, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, nkirbit, Robz888, spiritbears, Voltaire, yuma

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 1:30pm forum time on Monday, July 1st

Whoa, look at all that information.  Now I know who's playing, who's voting for whom (grammar!), how many of my mates I need to organize to get those dumbfaces lynched, AND when the deadline is.  I wonder what happens if the deadline is reached before I get four people to agree with me?  Oh wait, I remember, because I read the first two posts of this thread.

That means I also remember things like how to vote for people, how to avoid having the thread locked because I was being mean to people, and how to ignore post-counts.  Oh, that last one isn't on there?  Well, it should be.

DAY 1 START

[mail-mi]

Firsties! Also, vote: chairs cuz hes a newbie.

[chairs]

Why, I never!  I was going to suggest a no-lynch day 1, but if you're going to be like that, I Vote: mail-mi.

[mail-mi]

Why, I never!  I was going to suggest a no-lynch day 1, but if you're going to be like that, I Vote: mail-mi.

OMGUS! I use my double vote power to vote: chairs a second time!

[chairs]

CONSPIRACY!  Clearly a Mafia tactic.  You out yourself too early, I am sure that we fine townsfolk will prevail.

[mail-mi]

Vote: chairs!
Vote: chairs!
Vote: chairs!
Vote: chairs!
Vote: chairs!
Vote: chairs!
Vote: chairs!
Vote: chairs!

[nkirbit]

Hi guys!

[liopoil]

Hello everyone!

chairs, were you really going to suggest a no lynch day 1?

shraeye thinks we should ignore post counts. I propose we follow NLLL (never lynch lurkers literally) 

oh hey, an open setup, let's have some theory talk!

there are 6 possible setups, some favor town (cop+doc or cop+JK for instance) more than others (like VT+doc). scum also have the potential to fakeclaim. I am not going to trust claimants in general, but of course, it will depend on the situation. Most importantly:

I believe that in this setup a massclaim is almost NEVER a good idea. All 3 potential PRs have situations where they should claim though, but we'll get to those situations as they arise. For D1, nobody should ever claim anything unless they are L-1 with an intent to hammer.

I can not think of any situations where a VT should claim anything at all or a PR should claim anything but what they actually are.

Most of that theory stuff is basic, but hey, why not say it again. this is, however, hopefully the first and last time I talk about theory today. In previous games, I've gotten too caught up in theory talk and didn't do enough scumhunting. I dislike D1 because there is so little of any material at all, so that's part of why I don't scumhunt as much. I have also somehow generally been in the top few posters at all times during games. I'm not sure why that is, we'll see if it continues. I think I've been accused of trying to inflate my postcount before by posting multiple things that could have just been one post. Well, that isn't true, but I can see how that could clutter the thread. So my plan:

less theory talk, more scumhunting. Try to find something to grasp onto even on D1. More efficient posting. (like this post!)

So, to start off: mail-mi, are you scum? What about you Nkirbit? (I didn't ask chairs because it's already clear that he's scum.)

[chairs]

Hello everyone!

chairs, were you really going to suggest a no lynch day 1?

shraeye thinks we should ignore post counts. I propose we follow NLLL (never lynch lurkers literally) 

oh hey, an open setup, let's have some theory talk!

there are 6 possible setups, some favor town (cop+doc or cop+JK for instance) more than others (like VT+doc). scum also have the potential to fakeclaim. I am not going to trust claimants in general, but of course, it will depend on the situation. Most importantly:

I believe that in this setup a massclaim is almost NEVER a good idea. All 3 potential PRs have situations where they should claim though, but we'll get to those situations as they arise. For D1, nobody should ever claim anything unless they are L-1 with an intent to hammer.

I can not think of any situations where a VT should claim anything at all or a PR should claim anything but what they actually are.

Most of that theory stuff is basic, but hey, why not say it again. this is, however, hopefully the first and last time I talk about theory today. In previous games, I've gotten too caught up in theory talk and didn't do enough scumhunting. I dislike D1 because there is so little of any material at all, so that's part of why I don't scumhunt as much. I have also somehow generally been in the top few posters at all times during games. I'm not sure why that is, we'll see if it continues. I think I've been accused of trying to inflate my postcount before by posting multiple things that could have just been one post. Well, that isn't true, but I can see how that could clutter the thread. So my plan:

less theory talk, more scumhunting. Try to find something to grasp onto even on D1. More efficient posting. (like this post!)

So, to start off: mail-mi, are you scum? What about you Nkirbit? (I didn't ask chairs because it's already clear that he's scum.)

I thought I'd played Mafia before... apparently not.  You're treating my D-1 no-lynch like it's insane, but it's pretty common practice among the folks I normally play with (unless we smell a rat) to no-lynch.  Is it (game theory wise) terrible?  I haven't really read up on the game theory of Mafia.

VT = vanilla townie?

And I guess PR = power role?

I have no idea what L-1 is.

[nkirbit]

Lynch minus one.  So today, four votes is L-1

Lio, I am town. Are you?

[liopoil]

I thought I'd played Mafia before... apparently not.  You're treating my D-1 no-lynch like it's insane, but it's pretty common practice among the folks I normally play with (unless we smell a rat) to no-lynch.  Is it (game theory wise) terrible?  I haven't really read up on the game theory of Mafia.

VT = vanilla townie?

And I guess PR = power role?

I have no idea what L-1 is.

VT is vanilla townie yes, and PR is power role. L-1 means that a person need 1 more voter to lynch. So currently, that means that if a player has 4 votes on him, they are at L-1.

A D1 no lynch in this setup is indeed pretty insane. Right now, we can "afford" to incorrectly lynch 2 townies. If we no lynch, then after somebody dies, we can only afford to mislynch 1. I assume that the rationale behind no lynching D1 was because there was nothing to go off of. This is true, but after a no lynch, there is still just as little info.

In general: no lynch with an odd number of people alive is a bad idea. no lynch with an even number is sometimes a good idea.


nullread on chairs for being new to forum mafia. I guess mail-mi's posts come of a tiny bit scummy because they're jokey and all anti-chairs, but really, not much.

PPE: nkirbit claims town, interesting! (not really) He also asks me if I'm town. I'm a bit offended by this question as I thought it would be obvious by now, and so I refuse the answer it. you're just going to have to figure it out for yourself!

Oh also, chairs, are you aligned with us townspeople? (maybe if I change the question slightly I'll catch someone)

[chairs]

Lynch minus one.  So today, four votes is L-1

Lio, I am town. Are you?

Thanks for the clarification

I'm still afraid my relative shobon status to what's apparently a pretty developed theory of Mafia has me throwing massive (and inaccurate) tells

I thought I'd played Mafia before... apparently not.  You're treating my D-1 no-lynch like it's insane, but it's pretty common practice among the folks I normally play with (unless we smell a rat) to no-lynch.  Is it (game theory wise) terrible?  I haven't really read up on the game theory of Mafia.

VT = vanilla townie?

And I guess PR = power role?

I have no idea what L-1 is.

VT is vanilla townie yes, and PR is power role. L-1 means that a person need 1 more voter to lynch. So currently, that means that if a player has 4 votes on him, they are at L-1.

A D1 no lynch in this setup is indeed pretty insane. Right now, we can "afford" to incorrectly lynch 2 townies. If we no lynch, then after somebody dies, we can only afford to mislynch 1. I assume that the rationale behind no lynching D1 was because there was nothing to go off of. This is true, but after a no lynch, there is still just as little info.

In general: no lynch with an odd number of people alive is a bad idea. no lynch with an even number is sometimes a good idea.


nullread on chairs for being new to forum mafia. I guess mail-mi's posts come of a tiny bit scummy because they're jokey and all anti-chairs, but really, not much.

PPE: nkirbit claims town, interesting! (not really) He also asks me if I'm town. I'm a bit offended by this question as I thought it would be obvious by now, and so I refuse the answer it. you're just going to have to figure it out for yourself!

Oh also, chairs, are you aligned with us townspeople? (maybe if I change the question slightly I'll catch someone)

I'm as Town as it gets.

[liopoil]

there's hardly any scumhunting theory I think, so you'll do fine in that aspect.

Vote: Mcmcsalot for lurking and always being scum.

And by lurking I mean being 1 of 4 people who haven't posted yet.

[spiritbears]

A little shocked by the no-lunch suggestion from chairs, but maybe it's just his newness? And Lio...theory already??? You're going to give me a headache! 
And where are the two brothers?!  Lurking again?

[spiritbears]

Oh and Nk---still glowing on that perfect blitz!

[chairs]

A little shocked by the no-lunch suggestion from chairs, but maybe it's just his newness? And Lio...theory already??? You're going to give me a headache! 
And where are the two brothers?!  Lurking again?

Based on the wonderful explanation from liopoil, I retract my no-lynch suggestion (and never suggested we should skip lunch), but continue to (perhaps a bit vainfully) vote mail-mi.

[mail-mi]

Im scum town I swear!

A little shocked by the no-lunch suggestion from chairs, but maybe it's just his newness? And Lio...theory already??? You're going to give me a headache! 
And where are the two brothers?!  Lurking again?

Me too, that's just lio, jumping straight into theory; and since this started about three hours ago, I'm not gonna jump on someone for lurking.

That said, vote: chairs

[mail-mi]

A little shocked by the no-lunch suggestion from chairs, but maybe it's just his newness? And Lio...theory already??? You're going to give me a headache! 
And where are the two brothers?!  Lurking again?

Based on the wonderful explanation from liopoil, I retract my no-lynch suggestion (and never suggested we should skip lunch), but continue to (perhaps a bit vainfully) vote mail-mi.

Eh it's RVS, votes don't matter.

[spiritbears]

A little shocked by the no-lunch suggestion from chairs, but maybe it's just his newness? And Lio...theory already??? You're going to give me a headache! 
And where are the two brothers?!  Lurking again?

Based on the wonderful explanation from liopoil, I retract my no-lynch suggestion (and never suggested we should skip lunch), but continue to (perhaps a bit vainfully) vote mail-mi.

Lol...
(You might want to get that vote in bold then)
Mai might not be a bad choice given his MuLTIPLEs votez....

[chairs]

A little shocked by the no-lunch suggestion from chairs, but maybe it's just his newness? And Lio...theory already??? You're going to give me a headache! 
And where are the two brothers?!  Lurking again?

Based on the wonderful explanation from liopoil, I retract my no-lynch suggestion (and never suggested we should skip lunch), but continue to (perhaps a bit vainfully) vote mail-mi.

Eh it's RVS, votes don't matter.

What's RVS?

A little shocked by the no-lunch suggestion from chairs, but maybe it's just his newness? And Lio...theory already??? You're going to give me a headache! 
And where are the two brothers?!  Lurking again?

Based on the wonderful explanation from liopoil, I retract my no-lynch suggestion (and never suggested we should skip lunch), but continue to (perhaps a bit vainfully) vote mail-mi.

Lol...
(You might want to get that vote in bold then)
Mai might not be a bad choice given his MuLTIPLEs votez....

(I already put it in bold in my first response to him voting me)

[chairs]

Scrap the RVS clarification, I found the "commonly used abbreviation" list.

[mail-mi]

Scrap the RVS clarification, I found the "commonly used abbreviation" list.

What? I don't get to answer your question? This is madness! (Finish the quote)

vote: chairs

[chairs]

Scrap the RVS clarification, I found the "commonly used abbreviation" list.

What? I don't get to answer your question? This is madness! (Finish the quote)

vote: chairs

Madness?! THIS. IS. KC/KC/MONUMENT/MONUMENT/MONUMENT!

[liopoil]

I believe you mean bridge?

what's wrong with theory talk?

[spiritbears]

I believe you mean bridge?

what's wrong with theory talk?

Nothing really...just giving you a hard time...

[chairs]

I believe you mean bridge?

what's wrong with theory talk?

I like the KC/KC/Monument setup because the people I play with are kind of baddies and so I just rack up more VP than there are points on the table.

[Voltaire]

VOTE: chairs
VOTE: liopoil
VOTE: mail-mi
VOTE: mcmcsalot
VOTE: nkirbit
VOTE: Robz888
VOTE: spiritbears
VOTE: Voltaire
VOTE: yuma

Feels good to finally get that out of my system! unvote. Hey everyone! It's great to finally be back in a game. Greetings to those new and old.

I have not played enough games to make any meaningful contribution on theory/setup talk for this(these) arrangement(s).

Now I'm going to go for a run! What am I running from? I'm not telling! A guy's gotta have some mysteries...

[liopoil]

they're both pretty fun. But we have the main forum to talk about that stuff.

I believe you mean bridge?

what's wrong with theory talk?

Nothing really...just giving you a hard time...

Okay 

oh hey, I just realized... this game doesn't have flavor! I guess that fits the simple theme... I guess the flavor is basic stuff.

Asking people if they're scum doesn't seem to be working out. Maybe I ought to examine posts to look for scummy or towny stuff.

PPE: Vote: Voltaire for self-voting.

[spiritbears]

VOTE: chairs
VOTE: liopoil
VOTE: mail-mi
VOTE: mcmcsalot
VOTE: nkirbit
VOTE: Robz888
VOTE: spiritbears
VOTE: Voltaire
VOTE: yuma

Feels good to finally get that out of my system! unvote. Hey everyone! It's great to finally be back in a game. Greetings to those new and old.

I have not played enough games to make any meaningful contribution on theory/setup talk for this(these) arrangement(s).

Now I'm going to go for a run! What am I running from? I'm not telling! A guy's gotta have some mysteries...

Secrets?  Self-voting and mass voting?   Hmm.....sounds like mafia

[Robz888]

Hm. Liopoil.

Do you know what I am going to say about you?

[shraeye]

Vote Count 1.2

chairs (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (1): chairs
Voltaire (1): liopoil

Not voting: mcmcsalot, nkirbit, Robz888, spiritbears, Voltaire, yuma

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 1:30pm forum time on Monday, July 1st

[Voltaire]

Secrets?  Self-voting and mass voting?   Hmm.....sounds like mafia

Never forget that my first-ever game was subbing for Morgrim. 

[spiritbears]

Secrets?  Self-voting and mass voting?   Hmm.....sounds like mafia

Never forget that my first-ever game was subbing for Morgrim. 

Mogrim!!! I wonder where he's been....
But Morg wss ALWAYS scum....so maybe that's been passed on to you too?

[mail-mi]

Secrets?  Self-voting and mass voting?   Hmm.....sounds like mafia

Never forget that my first-ever game was subbing for Morgrim. 

Mogrim!!! I wonder where he's been....
But Morg wss ALWAYS scum....so maybe that's been passed on to you too?

No no no that's sparky. Morgrim was always town until recent games.

[spiritbears]

Secrets?  Self-voting and mass voting?   Hmm.....sounds like mafia

Never forget that my first-ever game was subbing for Morgrim. 

Mogrim!!! I wonder where he's been....
But Morg wss ALWAYS scum....so maybe that's been passed on to you too?

No no no that's sparky. Morgrim was always town until recent games.

Who is sparky? 

[Voltaire]

Secrets?  Self-voting and mass voting?   Hmm.....sounds like mafia

Never forget that my first-ever game was subbing for Morgrim. 

Mogrim!!! I wonder where he's been....
But Morg wss ALWAYS scum....so maybe that's been passed on to you too?

No no no that's sparky. Morgrim was always town until recent games.

Scumslip!

vote:spiritbears

Yay, a single RVS vote! Another thing I can check off my mafia bingo card for this game.

[spiritbears]

Well every game I ever played with morg he was mafia....and unpredictable.

[liopoil]

Hm. Liopoil.

Do you know what I am going to say about you?

hmmm. I don't. Now I'm curious. What are you going to say to me?

[spiritbears]

I hope this isn't the robz that throws something out and then disappears for days....damn near mislynched that robz....
And where is mcmc?!?!
Yuma???

[Robz888]

Hm. Liopoil.

Do you know what I am going to say about you?

hmmm. I don't. Now I'm curious. What are you going to say to me?

Do you really not see it? You're behavior is extremely off. You're very jokey and smiley. Obviously, you aren't the only one, but I think of you generally as a more serious player.

[spiritbears]

This early robz?  I don't know, seems fairly normal to me, but I really don't know the lio "Metta" all that well.

[mail-mi]

Hm. Liopoil.

Do you know what I am going to say about you?

hmmm. I don't. Now I'm curious. What are you going to say to me?

Do you really not see it? You're behavior is extremely off. You're very jokey and smiley. Obviously, you aren't the only one, but I think of you generally as a more serious player.

Hm. Hm indeed.

[spiritbears]

Hm. Liopoil.

Do you know what I am going to say about you?

hmmm. I don't. Now I'm curious. What are you going to say to me?

So you think there's something to this mai?
Do you really not see it? You're behavior is extremely off. You're very jokey and smiley. Obviously, you aren't the only one, but I think of you generally as a more serious player.

Hm. Hm indeed.

[spiritbears]

Damnit. Messed that up

Question for mai: so you think there's something to this robz observation?

[mail-mi]

Maybe. Any observations are good this early to get us out of RVS.

That said, vote: chairs

[Robz888]

This early robz?  I don't know, seems fairly normal to me, but I really don't know the lio "Metta" all that well.

[Robz888]

What do you mean "this early"? No, it's not too early, it's never too early to set aside the nonsense phase of the game and discuss like real actual things that matter.

[spiritbears]

I definitely agree with getting us out of vla quickly and down to scum hunting. I just don't know lio that well, so I'm wondering whether that's a good read on his metta. Mai seems to think so, but then inexplicably votes chairs!?! 

[yuma]

Hm. Liopoil.

Do you know what I am going to say about you?

hmmm. I don't. Now I'm curious. What are you going to say to me?

Do you really not see it? You're behavior is extremely off. You're very jokey and smiley. Obviously, you aren't the only one, but I think of you generally as a more serious player.

totally agree vote: liopoil

[mail-mi]

I definitely agree with getting us out of vla quickly and down to scum hunting. I just don't know lio that well, so I'm wondering whether that's a good read on his metta. Mai seems to think so, but then inexplicably votes chairs!?!

Eh, vote: chairs is just for fun. I mean, what's not fun about vote:ing chairs?

[shraeye]

Vote Count 1.3

chairs (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (1): chairs
Voltaire (1): liopoil
spiritbears (1): Voltaire
liopoil (1): yuma

Not voting: mcmcsalot, nkirbit, Robz888, spiritbears

[liopoil]

Hm. Liopoil.

Do you know what I am going to say about you?

hmmm. I don't. Now I'm curious. What are you going to say to me?

Do you really not see it? You're behavior is extremely off. You're very jokey and smiley. Obviously, you aren't the only one, but I think of you generally as a more serious player.

I am generally more serious, see my first post of this day. That post said all the serious stuff I have to say right now. After that, I just talked and was "jokey and smiley" because I had nothing to say. I assure you as soon as there's stuff to talk about (like right now) I'm gonna "put my game face on".

[liopoil]

In fact, I think if you look at the one game where I was scum I was especially reserved. Obviously I will probably try to play differently the next time I am scum though...

Unvote

[Voltaire]

OK, cool, no more RVS. unvote. I do not, however, know lio enough to know if this is a change.

[spiritbears]

OK, cool, no more RVS. unvote. I do not, however, know lio enough to know if this is a change.

I agree.  I really don't know if lio wss being "jokey" just for fun or whether he's scum!lio trying to switch up his game. So I'm just going to keep an eye on him for now
But where the hell is MC!!! Hey man don't lurk! We could reslly use you in here.... (Unless your scum!)

[Voltaire]

OK, cool, no more RVS. unvote. I do not, however, know lio enough to know if this is a change.

I agree.  I really don't know if lio wss being "jokey" just for fun or whether he's scum!lio trying to switch up his game. So I'm just going to keep an eye on him for now
But where the hell is MC!!! Hey man don't lurk! We could reslly use you in here.... (Unless your scum!)

Actually then he should just stay away, and then we can lynch lurkers, and it's realllllllllly simple.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, I'm here, going to vote:yuma. As I was reading everything at once a few things struck me.

Town:
Robz - Number one thing I look for when I am looking for town!robz is his do something and wait for people to jump on it in a way that is advantageous for scum(and thus the player is more likely to be scum)

Spiritbears - So going to be screwed once this guy is scum, hes gotten good enough at this game that his usual content is really townie but I think could be faked. But for now the town read stands.

Slight Town:
Chairs - He has handled himself very well in the beginning, something I think is difficult for first timers as mafia(I now it was for me) so to clarify what I was looking for was a "what should I be doing" attitude and I think he was coming up with ideas and original content posts(not just commenting on others thoughts). The reason he is not town is this little piece here

I'm still afraid my relative shobon status to what's apparently a pretty developed theory of Mafia has me throwing massive (and inaccurate) tells

Being worried about people thinking your scum and feeling the need to vocalize that is a typically scum trait. Now I think recently town has shot itself in the foot using these type of posts as bulletproof ways to "catch" scum and allow actually scum to push things hard without repercussions. We gotta get back to noting its something that has been done and noting it helps develop a scum!chairs narrative, but it doesn't mean he's auto scum.

Null:
nrkbit - has one post so far.
voltaire - has 4 posts, mainly rvs.

Slight Scum:
liopoil - As well as being jokey and smiley he has also been driving conversations and posting a fair bit of original content. The reason he is a slight scum read instead of town is that his first post was far to "aware" to give him town status at this point.

In previous games, I've gotten too caught up in theory talk and didn't do enough scumhunting. I dislike D1 because there is so little of any material at all, so that's part of why I don't scumhunt as much. I have also somehow generally been in the top few posters at all times during games. I'm not sure why that is, we'll see if it continues. I think I've been accused of trying to inflate my postcount before by posting multiple things that could have just been one post.

This post is completely covering his tracks and saying hey you shouldn't find me scummy for X Y and Z.


Scum:
Mail-mi - I think anti town players are a good place to look for scum, mail has done nothing but extend rvs as well as inflate his post count(which should be zero based on content) he even went as far as to quote an interaction between other players and say it doesn't matter its rvs.

Yuma - Remember how I said town!robz tries to see who will jump on his vote in a scummy way. Let me show the way I usually cast votes as scum and try to help explain what I mean by a scummy vote. As scum I look for 4 things before I vote; 1) has the player done something that could be construed as scummy without need for concrete facts; 2) Am I the only one, or one of a select few who has pointed this out; 3) Can I get enough people to vote with me for a lynch; 4) Is this going to look bad on my when that player flips town. Now lets apply that to yuma and liopoil, he is suspected for having too jokey of posts(not concrete), robz pointed this out but noone else so yuma gets to be early on the wagon in a safe position, I have a history of finding liopoil scummy, yuma and robz are vets thus their opinions are valued, i think it would be easy to get 2 people after a robz/yuma/mcmc wagon, finally it's D1/robz started the wagon/those 2 that hop on the end of wagon will come under the most suspicion/ yuma will not look bad at all after the flip.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, I'm here, going to vote:yuma. As I was reading everything at once a few things struck me.

Town:
Robz - Number one thing I look for when I am looking for town!robz is his do something and wait for people to jump on it in a way that is advantageous for scum(and thus the player is more likely to be scum)

Spiritbears - So going to be screwed once this guy is scum, hes gotten good enough at this game that his usual content is really townie but I think could be faked. But for now the town read stands.

Slight Town:
Chairs - He has handled himself very well in the beginning, something I think is difficult for first timers as mafia(I now it was for me) so to clarify what I was looking for was a "what should I be doing" attitude and I think he was coming up with ideas and original content posts(not just commenting on others thoughts). The reason he is not town is this little piece here

I'm still afraid my relative shobon status to what's apparently a pretty developed theory of Mafia has me throwing massive (and inaccurate) tells

Being worried about people thinking your scum and feeling the need to vocalize that is a typically scum trait. Now I think recently town has shot itself in the foot using these type of posts as bulletproof ways to "catch" scum and allow actually scum to push things hard without repercussions. We gotta get back to noting its something that has been done and noting it helps develop a scum!chairs narrative, but it doesn't mean he's auto scum.

Null:
nrkbit - has one post so far.
voltaire - has 4 posts, mainly rvs.

Slight Scum:
liopoil - As well as being jokey and smiley he has also been driving conversations and posting a fair bit of original content. The reason he is a slight scum read instead of town is that his first post was far to "aware" to give him town status at this point.

In previous games, I've gotten too caught up in theory talk and didn't do enough scumhunting. I dislike D1 because there is so little of any material at all, so that's part of why I don't scumhunt as much. I have also somehow generally been in the top few posters at all times during games. I'm not sure why that is, we'll see if it continues. I think I've been accused of trying to inflate my postcount before by posting multiple things that could have just been one post.

This post is completely covering his tracks and saying hey you shouldn't find me scummy for X Y and Z.

Scum:
Mail-mi - I think anti town players are a good place to look for scum, mail has done nothing but extend rvs as well as inflate his post count(which should be zero based on content) he even went as far as to quote an interaction between other players and say it doesn't matter its rvs.

Yuma - Remember how I said town!robz tries to see who will jump on his vote in a scummy way. Let me show the way I usually cast votes as scum and try to help explain what I mean by a scummy vote. As scum I look for 4 things before I vote; 1) has the player done something that could be construed as scummy without need for concrete facts; 2) Am I the only one, or one of a select few who has pointed this out; 3) Can I get enough people to vote with me for a lynch; 4) Is this going to look bad on my when that player flips town. Now lets apply that to yuma and liopoil, he is suspected for having too jokey of posts(not concrete), robz pointed this out but noone else so yuma gets to be early on the wagon in a safe position, I have a history of finding liopoil scummy, yuma and robz are vets thus their opinions are valued, i think it would be easy to get 2 people after a robz/yuma/mcmc wagon, finally it's D1/robz started the wagon/those 2 that hop on the end of wagon will come under the most suspicion/ yuma will not look bad at all after the flip.

Fixed formatting

[Voltaire]

Okay, I'm here, going to vote:yuma. As I was reading everything at once a few things struck me.
[big snip]
Yuma - Remember how I said town!robz tries to see who will jump on his vote in a scummy way. Let me show the way I usually cast votes as scum and try to help explain what I mean by a scummy vote. As scum I look for 4 things before I vote; 1) has the player done something that could be construed as scummy without need for concrete facts; 2) Am I the only one, or one of a select few who has pointed this out; 3) Can I get enough people to vote with me for a lynch; 4) Is this going to look bad on my when that player flips town. Now lets apply that to yuma and liopoil, he is suspected for having too jokey of posts(not concrete), robz pointed this out but noone else so yuma gets to be early on the wagon in a safe position, I have a history of finding liopoil scummy, yuma and robz are vets thus their opinions are valued, i think it would be easy to get 2 people after a robz/yuma/mcmc wagon, finally it's D1/robz started the wagon/those 2 that hop on the end of wagon will come under the most suspicion/ yuma will not look bad at all after the flip.

Is your vote on Yuma RVS or based on this case? Since it came at the top of the post and your yuma read at the bottom, I want to make sure (I assume it is case-based).

[chairs]

So what I'm hearing is that my kneejerk "vote: mail-mi" reaction is completely justified.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, I'm here, going to vote:yuma. As I was reading everything at once a few things struck me.
[big snip]
Yuma - Remember how I said town!robz tries to see who will jump on his vote in a scummy way. Let me show the way I usually cast votes as scum and try to help explain what I mean by a scummy vote. As scum I look for 4 things before I vote; 1) has the player done something that could be construed as scummy without need for concrete facts; 2) Am I the only one, or one of a select few who has pointed this out; 3) Can I get enough people to vote with me for a lynch; 4) Is this going to look bad on my when that player flips town. Now lets apply that to yuma and liopoil, he is suspected for having too jokey of posts(not concrete), robz pointed this out but noone else so yuma gets to be early on the wagon in a safe position, I have a history of finding liopoil scummy, yuma and robz are vets thus their opinions are valued, i think it would be easy to get 2 people after a robz/yuma/mcmc wagon, finally it's D1/robz started the wagon/those 2 that hop on the end of wagon will come under the most suspicion/ yuma will not look bad at all after the flip.

Is your vote on Yuma RVS or based on this case? Since it came at the top of the post and your yuma read at the bottom, I want to make sure (I assume it is case-based).

Yes, 100% based on the case.

[spiritbears]

See...this is exactly why im glad mc made or in. He really does scum hunt like no one else I know.

I'm having a very hard time typing today (for those here that dont know me, I'm disabled and have pretty limited use of my hands. I try to type on a phone, but sometimes even that is too much. I have s hard time correcting my posts so please forgive my many typos. I'm not lazy, I try my best)

I think mc may be right about Yuma.  And town read on mc. Bigtime

[spiritbears]

So what I'm hearing is that my kneejerk "vote: mail-mi" reaction is completely justified.

I think it was just omgus...retaliation

[nkirbit]

It is a little odd that Lio had to announce that he was going to scum hunt more this game as opposed to just, you know, doing it.  I'm not sure that's necessarily scummy though.. Trying different things in different games can be a good idea, and making it clear that's what you're going to do is not a bad idea.  So maybe it's not that odd

[spiritbears]

Nk-- whst about the quote mc pointed out about lio. Do you think that was scummy?

[Robz888]

I'm really confused by what mcmc said. I don't get it at all, actually. Looks like I find lio scummy, yuma agrees and votes, and that makes me town, yuma scum, and lio?? In mcmc's view. I don't follow.

So, I don't get why yuma comes off looking the most scummy here, from your perspective. Or why I look like town to you, actually.

[Robz888]

Hm. Liopoil.

Do you know what I am going to say about you?

hmmm. I don't. Now I'm curious. What are you going to say to me?

Do you really not see it? You're behavior is extremely off. You're very jokey and smiley. Obviously, you aren't the only one, but I think of you generally as a more serious player.

I am generally more serious, see my first post of this day. That post said all the serious stuff I have to say right now. After that, I just talked and was "jokey and smiley" because I had nothing to say. I assure you as soon as there's stuff to talk about (like right now) I'm gonna "put my game face on".

If you have nothing to say, say nothing. Scum feel pressure to talk anyway, and so they resort to jokey an smiley, you see? (That's been my theory forever, at least. It could be wrong.)

[Robz888]

In fact, I think if you look at the one game where I was scum I was especially reserved. Obviously I will probably try to play differently the next time I am scum though...

Unvote

You were pretty non-jokey in Mafia XIX, when you were town. That's like my main game of reference on you. And I don't remember you being silly in XXIII, when you were also town.

[nkirbit]

Robz - because one of mcmcs scum criterion is to jump on a case that others support. You didn't do that, but Yuma did. I wouldn't apply that this early day1, but that's probably what mcmc is thinking

[Voltaire]

Hm. Liopoil.

Do you know what I am going to say about you?

hmmm. I don't. Now I'm curious. What are you going to say to me?

Do you really not see it? You're behavior is extremely off. You're very jokey and smiley. Obviously, you aren't the only one, but I think of you generally as a more serious player.

I am generally more serious, see my first post of this day. That post said all the serious stuff I have to say right now. After that, I just talked and was "jokey and smiley" because I had nothing to say. I assure you as soon as there's stuff to talk about (like right now) I'm gonna "put my game face on".

If you have nothing to say, say nothing. Scum feel pressure to talk anyway, and so they resort to jokey an smiley, you see? (That's been my theory forever, at least. It could be wrong.)

It's not foolproof. I had no idea of what to say early on, so I voted for everyone and yadayadayada. Then you got the game started properly. So now we have stuff to do. Like reply to mcmc's post, which I will do in a bit.

[nkirbit]

I don't think it necessarily has to be, sb.  I don't subscribe to the school of thought that preemptively defending yourself = scum.  I think both scum and town could do something like that.

[Robz888]

OH, I get what mcmc is saying now. Mcmc is analyzing what yuma did from the perpsective of whether mcmc would do that as scum.

Yeah. Not buying the case at all, though. I think mcmc's scum voting explanation maybe makes sense when scum is deciding about a serious vote, but these early votes, even when informed by real evidence, are pretty unaccountable. So it's not like scum has to worry too much about making the wrong vote here. I don't see it as very opportunistic.

[nkirbit]

Oh and Nk---still glowing on that perfect blitz!

I just now saw this . Me too.

[nkirbit]

I agree with you, robz. It's just too early for a vote like that to matter... I think it's a good metric, but scum aren't going to do it this early without having a broader knowledge of what people would or wouldn't support and a better case to make

[spiritbears]

I don't think it necessarily has to be, sb.  I don't subscribe to the school of thought that preemptively defending yourself = scum.  I think both scum and town could do something like that.

Yes I agree. I have a null read on lio, but I don't know him as well as robz and mc.  That both of them saw something in him makes me think they might be onto something.  It's worth watching I think
Robz--i really have a hard time reading him. We nearly lynched him in the other game and he wss an IC! 

[nkirbit]

I don't think it necessarily has to be, sb.  I don't subscribe to the school of thought that preemptively defending yourself = scum.  I think both scum and town could do something like that.

Yes I agree. I have a null read on lio, but I don't know him as well as robz and mc.  That both of them saw something in him makes me think they might be onto something.  It's worth watching I think
Robz--i really have a hard time reading him. We nearly lynched him in the other game and he wss an IC!

Yeah, but robz was acting scummy that game, and deliberately so.  That wasn't a mistake on our part to find him scummy

[Voltaire]

Okay, I'm here, going to vote:yuma. As I was reading everything at once a few things struck me.

Town:
Robz - Number one thing I look for when I am looking for town!robz is his do something and wait for people to jump on it in a way that is advantageous for scum(and thus the player is more likely to be scum)

Spiritbears - So going to be screwed once this guy is scum, hes gotten good enough at this game that his usual content is really townie but I think could be faked. But for now the town read stands.

Slight Town:
Chairs - He has handled himself very well in the beginning, something I think is difficult for first timers as mafia(I now it was for me) so to clarify what I was looking for was a "what should I be doing" attitude and I think he was coming up with ideas and original content posts(not just commenting on others thoughts). The reason he is not town is this little piece here

I'm still afraid my relative shobon status to what's apparently a pretty developed theory of Mafia has me throwing massive (and inaccurate) tells

Being worried about people thinking your scum and feeling the need to vocalize that is a typically scum trait. Now I think recently town has shot itself in the foot using these type of posts as bulletproof ways to "catch" scum and allow actually scum to push things hard without repercussions. We gotta get back to noting its something that has been done and noting it helps develop a scum!chairs narrative, but it doesn't mean he's auto scum.

Null:
nrkbit - has one post so far.
voltaire - has 4 posts, mainly rvs.

Slight Scum:
liopoil - As well as being jokey and smiley he has also been driving conversations and posting a fair bit of original content. The reason he is a slight scum read instead of town is that his first post was far to "aware" to give him town status at this point.

In previous games, I've gotten too caught up in theory talk and didn't do enough scumhunting. I dislike D1 because there is so little of any material at all, so that's part of why I don't scumhunt as much. I have also somehow generally been in the top few posters at all times during games. I'm not sure why that is, we'll see if it continues. I think I've been accused of trying to inflate my postcount before by posting multiple things that could have just been one post.

This post is completely covering his tracks and saying hey you shouldn't find me scummy for X Y and Z.

Scum:
Mail-mi - I think anti town players are a good place to look for scum, mail has done nothing but extend rvs as well as inflate his post count(which should be zero based on content) he even went as far as to quote an interaction between other players and say it doesn't matter its rvs.

Yuma - Remember how I said town!robz tries to see who will jump on his vote in a scummy way. Let me show the way I usually cast votes as scum and try to help explain what I mean by a scummy vote. As scum I look for 4 things before I vote; 1) has the player done something that could be construed as scummy without need for concrete facts; 2) Am I the only one, or one of a select few who has pointed this out; 3) Can I get enough people to vote with me for a lynch; 4) Is this going to look bad on my when that player flips town. Now lets apply that to yuma and liopoil, he is suspected for having too jokey of posts(not concrete), robz pointed this out but noone else so yuma gets to be early on the wagon in a safe position, I have a history of finding liopoil scummy, yuma and robz are vets thus their opinions are valued, i think it would be easy to get 2 people after a robz/yuma/mcmc wagon, finally it's D1/robz started the wagon/those 2 that hop on the end of wagon will come under the most suspicion/ yuma will not look bad at all after the flip.

Fixed formatting

OK, I love these posts. Typically because they're great for finding scumpairs, which means it's way too early to be useful right now, but I like that we have this from mcmc. Chairs, nkirbit, & mail-mi would be his scumpartners (well, and me, I guess) based on how I read these sorts of posts when I'm looking for scum.

But I have a null read on mcmc so far. Honestly, I have a null read on pretty much everyone so far. Robz is scumhunting well, though. I don't trust his reads very much though as they've been wrong in the previous games I've played with him (but that was a long time ago, so maybe one of us has changed?).

I doubt yuma would be as obvious as he was. That said, I want to see more from him. Mcmc, though...I want to see a lot!

I wonder...vote:yuma.

[spiritbears]

Wait, you don't think Yuma is acting scummy, but you vote for him anyway???

[Voltaire]

Wait, you don't think Yuma is acting scummy, but you vote for him anyway???

I wonder!

[spiritbears]

Wait, you don't think Yuma is acting scummy, but you vote for him anyway???

I wonder!

I'm wondering about your wondering

[Voltaire]

Wait, you don't think Yuma is acting scummy, but you vote for him anyway???

I wonder!

I'm wondering about your wondering

Basically, I like to cause a huge stink on D1. It usually paints me super-scummy, but the positions everyone takes, in my mind, generates a ton of info for town and it's a big net positive.

Also my overall philosophy is that those who appear the most town on D1 are scum, and that those who appear town aren't actually town until D2 or D3.

And I don't have enough to go on right now for anything. So I just want a wagon to start, any wagon! Let's lynch everybody!

[spiritbears]

Seems like you are trying to cover your tracks..
vote:volt

[liopoil]

It is a little odd that Lio had to announce that he was going to scum hunt more this game as opposed to just, you know, doing it.  I'm not sure that's necessarily scummy though.. Trying different things in different games can be a good idea, and making it clear that's what you're going to do is not a bad idea.  So maybe it's not that odd

I didn't HAVE to announce it, but why not?

speaking of scumhunting....

mcmc's post is a bit weird to me. That was his first post of the game, and in it he gives a read on every single player? I'm not sure, just felt off.

voltaire has been doing a bit of the same thing as me with the silly stuff, voting for everyone, etc. I'm not sure what to make of the Yuma vote, I think it's just trying to get something going as it's tough to find stuff to work with, so probably null on that.

spiritbears is the same as ever.

nkirbit hasn't said a whole lot, but what he has said I agree with

townread on Robz888 because unseriousness being scummy is something he has definitely always supported and also more importantly his posts sound like disinterested town robz who's all like, "I'm town again, game just started, I have nothing to say, except oh wait liopoil is scummy so I'll say that!"

Yuma has exactly one post, in which he "totally agrees" with robz and votes me. I'm not sure what I think of that yet...

Mail-mi votes for chairs in most of his posts, and in the others doesn't say anything worth anything. I guess that makes me lean town... because that's weird play as scum, scum needs to try to say SOMETHING about the game...

Null on chairs. Chairs, could you put in an isotropic or goko username so that I can find your posts by ctrl-F "username: chairs"

[mail-mi]

Unvote

Yumas on his off week so he won't be around much. Nor will I today, its TFT.

[liopoil]

actually, I think he's on his ON week.

we have 15 day deadlines, which is a ton of time.

[Voltaire]

Yuma has exactly one post, in which he "totally agrees" with robz and votes me. I'm not sure what I think of that yet...

Yuma is definitely hanging back on purpose. To what end, will be interesting to see.

So people aren't liking mcmc's post either?

[liopoil]

no, he's V/LA (well, at work). If he were hanging back on purpose, I would totally insta-vote him.

[mail-mi]

Yuma has exactly one post, in which he "totally agrees" with robz and votes me. I'm not sure what I think of that yet...

Yuma is definitely hanging back on purpose. To what end, will be interesting to see.

So people aren't liking mcmc's post either?

Eh, it's got some good stuff. Makes me think this is town mcmc because he usually does stuff like this.

[Robz888]

I'm actually concerned that people are forming reads a little too quickly (including on me). The thing is, I've found that once I've like publicly said "I think X is town" it takes more for me ot change that impression. And you know, pretty much everything we are basing reads on so far is very likely bogus. Hopefully not, but probably.

I think lio is a bit scummier than the rest. That's all so far.

Pleae share reads, but just be careful about going, Oh, yep, Robz, obvtown after like 5 posts," and then never ecosnidering it. There isn't enough data yet to make those kinds of assumptions!

[liopoil]

definitely agree with that. Most of the value of making reads this early is so that scum have to make reads too.

[Voltaire]

I'm actually concerned that people are forming reads a little too quickly (including on me). The thing is, I've found that once I've like publicly said "I think X is town" it takes more for me ot change that impression. And you know, pretty much everything we are basing reads on so far is very likely bogus. Hopefully not, but probably.

I think lio is a bit scummier than the rest. That's all so far.

Pleae share reads, but just be careful about going, Oh, yep, Robz, obvtown after like 5 posts," and then never ecosnidering it. There isn't enough data yet to make those kinds of assumptions!

Yes!

Honestly, I have a null read on pretty much everyone so far.

But maybe town has caught scum already, and you're trying to shake us off! Yep, it's more jokey posts. I got nothing. unvote.

[Voltaire]

****ing quotes.

I'm actually concerned that people are forming reads a little too quickly (including on me). The thing is, I've found that once I've like publicly said "I think X is town" it takes more for me ot change that impression. And you know, pretty much everything we are basing reads on so far is very likely bogus. Hopefully not, but probably.

I think lio is a bit scummier than the rest. That's all so far.

Pleae share reads, but just be careful about going, Oh, yep, Robz, obvtown after like 5 posts," and then never ecosnidering it. There isn't enough data yet to make those kinds of assumptions!

Yes!

Honestly, I have a null read on pretty much everyone so far.

But maybe town has caught scum already, and you're trying to shake us off! Yep, it's more jokey posts. I got nothing. unvote.

[nkirbit]

Yuma has exactly one post, in which he "totally agrees" with robz and votes me. I'm not sure what I think of that yet...

Yuma is definitely hanging back on purpose. To what end, will be interesting to see.

So people aren't liking mcmc's post either?

I disagree with some of his conclusions, but still think its a good post

[Voltaire]

Yuma has exactly one post, in which he "totally agrees" with robz and votes me. I'm not sure what I think of that yet...

Yuma is definitely hanging back on purpose. To what end, will be interesting to see.

So people aren't liking mcmc's post either?

I disagree with some of his conclusions, but still think its a good post

Which conclusions?

[spiritbears]

Mc's post reads town to me (as I said)...I think it's a good post because it makes a lot of calls people have to react to.  So you get both his reads down...and all the reaction to it.

[mcmcsalot]

OH, I get what mcmc is saying now. Mcmc is analyzing what yuma did from the perpsective of whether mcmc would do that as scum.

Yeah. Not buying the case at all, though. I think mcmc's scum voting explanation maybe makes sense when scum is deciding about a serious vote, but these early votes, even when informed by real evidence, are pretty unaccountable. So it's not like scum has to worry too much about making the wrong vote here. I don't see it as very opportunistic.

I have a huge issue with this town thinking it's "too early" to think scum would be being carefull, its "too early" to form reads. Scum is AWLAYS thinking about what to do when.

Baisically robz do you think the vote and position yuma put himself in benefits town!yuma or scum!yuma, I think it benefits scum!yuma there for he is more likely to be scum. Town!yuma I thin would explain more and come up with a stronger reasoning for his vote(yes even this early...) whereas lazy piggyback vote on an early wagon based on not concrete data looks like an awesome place for scum to be.

[mcmcsalot]

Seems like you are trying to cover your tracks..
vote:volt

I agree this is our third don't mind me looking scummy post. again not enough to make a case out of but something that can be remembered and worked into future cases for or against the player.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm actually concerned that people are forming reads a little too quickly (including on me). The thing is, I've found that once I've like publicly said "I think X is town" it takes more for me ot change that impression. And you know, pretty much everything we are basing reads on so far is very likely bogus. Hopefully not, but probably.

I think lio is a bit scummier than the rest. That's all so far.

Pleae share reads, but just be careful about going, Oh, yep, Robz, obvtown after like 5 posts," and then never ecosnidering it. There isn't enough data yet to make those kinds of assumptions!

I think people should post and form reads early and often, they should and will change, and I want that documented. Since when do we want people to only state their final set reads. I want to see a players reads develop so that when we get some flips we can figure out if anyone has been acting odd toward another player(like reads that change without reason) We just have to make sure players are not crucified for changing reads as long as they state reasons that can be analyzed.

[mcmcsalot]

****ing quotes.

I'm actually concerned that people are forming reads a little too quickly (including on me). The thing is, I've found that once I've like publicly said "I think X is town" it takes more for me ot change that impression. And you know, pretty much everything we are basing reads on so far is very likely bogus. Hopefully not, but probably.

I think lio is a bit scummier than the rest. That's all so far.

Pleae share reads, but just be careful about going, Oh, yep, Robz, obvtown after like 5 posts," and then never ecosnidering it. There isn't enough data yet to make those kinds of assumptions!

Yes!

Honestly, I have a null read on pretty much everyone so far.

But maybe town has caught scum already, and you're trying to shake us off! Yep, it's more jokey posts. I got nothing. unvote.

I would so editing others quotes is allowed...it honestly took me a good 5 minutes to figure out what you did and I was the one who posted, I have cut pieces of quotes out to point out what I want to quote but full on quote editing is I thought not allowed. You can completely confuse people.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm actually concerned that people are forming reads a little too quickly (including on me). The thing is, I've found that once I've like publicly said "I think X is town" it takes more for me ot change that impression. And you know, pretty much everything we are basing reads on so far is very likely bogus. Hopefully not, but probably.

I think lio is a bit scummier than the rest. That's all so far.

Pleae share reads, but just be careful about going, Oh, yep, Robz, obvtown after like 5 posts," and then never ecosnidering it. There isn't enough data yet to make those kinds of assumptions!

Okay I think I see you are concerned with my town read on you more than the other things I said. It isn't like an obvi town irrevocable status, it's something I notice you do as town and you did here, that puts you town for now and will be used as I create a narrative for town!robz and scum!robz and then see which one makes more sense.

[Robz888]

I'm not saying it's too early to have reads, but it's certainly too early to have accurate reads. As long as you keep in mind that you're probably almost entirely wrong in what you say, then go ahead and say it. I do think the reads lists are helpful for getting people on record and for generating conversation. Just don't put too much faith in them.

As for your argument "would this help scum yuma?" I argue that it wouldn't. Not meaningfully.

[Robz888]

I'm actually concerned that people are forming reads a little too quickly (including on me). The thing is, I've found that once I've like publicly said "I think X is town" it takes more for me ot change that impression. And you know, pretty much everything we are basing reads on so far is very likely bogus. Hopefully not, but probably.

I think lio is a bit scummier than the rest. That's all so far.

Pleae share reads, but just be careful about going, Oh, yep, Robz, obvtown after like 5 posts," and then never ecosnidering it. There isn't enough data yet to make those kinds of assumptions!

Okay I think I see you are concerned with my town read on you more than the other things I said. It isn't like an obvi town irrevocable status, it's something I notice you do as town and you did here, that puts you town for now and will be used as I create a narrative for town!robz and scum!robz and then see which one makes more sense.

Well, I'm not concerned that you think I'm town. I am town. I'm concerned that you're a little too sure of your thought process for how you arrived at your opinions.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm actually concerned that people are forming reads a little too quickly (including on me). The thing is, I've found that once I've like publicly said "I think X is town" it takes more for me ot change that impression. And you know, pretty much everything we are basing reads on so far is very likely bogus. Hopefully not, but probably.

I think lio is a bit scummier than the rest. That's all so far.

Pleae share reads, but just be careful about going, Oh, yep, Robz, obvtown after like 5 posts," and then never ecosnidering it. There isn't enough data yet to make those kinds of assumptions!

Okay I think I see you are concerned with my town read on you more than the other things I said. It isn't like an obvi town irrevocable status, it's something I notice you do as town and you did here, that puts you town for now and will be used as I create a narrative for town!robz and scum!robz and then see which one makes more sense.

Well, I'm not concerned that you think I'm town. I am town. I'm concerned that you're a little too sure of your thought process for how you arrived at your opinions.

I am not sure, I do think your post against liopoil was weak(not wrong just a small reason) and didnt fully encompass what liopoil has done so far. I think this leaves open the opportunity for other players to respond to your post, they could attack you for a weak case(I would find this towny) they could join you and elaborate their own thoughts(I would find this towny) or they could join you and state that you reasoning is strong(I would find this scummy). I notice town robz doing things like this early on in a lot of games to help force players to do something that should shed some light on their alignment, so this leads me to believe you are town. But as more information comes I will continue to analyze whether you are town or scum.

[Voltaire]

****ing quotes.

I'm actually concerned that people are forming reads a little too quickly (including on me). The thing is, I've found that once I've like publicly said "I think X is town" it takes more for me ot change that impression. And you know, pretty much everything we are basing reads on so far is very likely bogus. Hopefully not, but probably.

I think lio is a bit scummier than the rest. That's all so far.

Pleae share reads, but just be careful about going, Oh, yep, Robz, obvtown after like 5 posts," and then never ecosnidering it. There isn't enough data yet to make those kinds of assumptions!

Yes!

Honestly, I have a null read on pretty much everyone so far.

But maybe town has caught scum already, and you're trying to shake us off! Yep, it's more jokey posts. I got nothing. unvote.

I would so editing others quotes is allowed...it honestly took me a good 5 minutes to figure out what you did and I was the one who posted, I have cut pieces of quotes out to point out what I want to quote but full on quote editing is I thought not allowed. You can completely confuse people.

To clarify I didn't edit anyone else's quotes...not sure what you're getting at, I did fail entirely to correctly format my post, my new content looked like someone else's, it was a mistake. Maybe I deleted something by mistake? The only intentional quote "edit" I've done so far is to place a [big snip] in your long post so that all that was left was your yuma vote and reasons, indicating lots of stuff was missing. Apologies if anything I've done has come off as dishonest, it's just been typing errors.

[Voltaire]

Oh! I just figured out what happened. In an effort to fix my quote-mashed disaster of a post, I ended up replacing my name with mcmc's, making it look like what I said was said by him. Obviously not what I meant - my bad!

[Voltaire]

I'm not saying it's too early to have reads, but it's certainly too early to have accurate reads. As long as you keep in mind that you're probably almost entirely wrong in what you say, then go ahead and say it. I do think the reads lists are helpful for getting people on record and for generating conversation. Just don't put too much faith in them.

As for your argument "would this help scum yuma?" I argue that it wouldn't. Not meaningfully.

I agree with this. I am thinking yuma may have been hoping it would start a (terrible) lio wagon, so then we could see who else would join it claiming it was a good idea.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm not saying it's too early to have reads, but it's certainly too early to have accurate reads. As long as you keep in mind that you're probably almost entirely wrong in what you say, then go ahead and say it. I do think the reads lists are helpful for getting people on record and for generating conversation. Just don't put too much faith in them.

As for your argument "would this help scum yuma?" I argue that it wouldn't. Not meaningfully.

I agree with this. I am thinking yuma may have been hoping it would start a (terrible) lio wagon, so then we could see who else would join it claiming it was a good idea.

Baisically I am saying I find that a credible reason for robz post, but yuma's falls on the other side of jining claiming its a good idea. This is because where do you draw the line? I think its credible to join if you give reasoning and advance the case, scum doesn't want to do that they just hop on which is what yuma did.

[Voltaire]

I'm not saying it's too early to have reads, but it's certainly too early to have accurate reads. As long as you keep in mind that you're probably almost entirely wrong in what you say, then go ahead and say it. I do think the reads lists are helpful for getting people on record and for generating conversation. Just don't put too much faith in them.

As for your argument "would this help scum yuma?" I argue that it wouldn't. Not meaningfully.

I agree with this. I am thinking yuma may have been hoping it would start a (terrible) lio wagon, so then we could see who else would join it claiming it was a good idea.

Baisically I am saying I find that a credible reason for robz post, but yuma's falls on the other side of jining claiming its a good idea. This is because where do you draw the line? I think its credible to join if you give reasoning and advance the case, scum doesn't want to do that they just hop on which is what yuma did.

Yeah but isn't that patently obvious how scummy that is? It's a ton of wine for D1 for scum!yuma to go for it like that. He'd need, what, 3 more people to hop on and nobody to point out how weird his vote was.

[liopoil]

I was hardly about to be lynched any time soon, and the odds are still pretty good that I will not be the lynch today (maybe slightly more than 1/9). It isn't the time to start actively trying to lynch people. I do not think that yuma was really trying to lynch me, more that he agrees with robz's point, and so voted to get some discussion going.

[Robz888]

I was hardly about to be lynched any time soon, and the odds are still pretty good that I will not be the lynch today (maybe slightly more than 1/9). It isn't the time to start actively trying to lynch people. I do not think that yuma was really trying to lynch me, more that he agrees with robz's point, and so voted to get some discussion going.

Right. Exactly.

[shraeye]

Vote Count 1.4

mail-mi (1): chairs
liopoil (1): yuma
yuma (1): mcmcsalot
Voltaire (1): spiritbears

Not voting: nkirbit, Robz888, liopoil, mail-mi, Voltaire

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 1:30pm forum time on Monday, July 1st

[spiritbears]

I'm actually concerned that people are forming reads a little too quickly (including on me). The thing is, I've found that once I've like publicly said "I think X is town" it takes more for me ot change that impression. And you know, pretty much everything we are basing reads on so far is very likely bogus. Hopefully not, but probably.

I think lio is a bit scummier than the rest. That's all so far.

Pleae share reads, but just be careful about going, Oh, yep, Robz, obvtown after like 5 posts," and then never ecosnidering it. There isn't enough data yet to make those kinds of assumptions!

Okay I think I see you are concerned with my town read on you more than the other things I said. It isn't like an obvi town irrevocable status, it's something I notice you do as town and you did here, that puts you town for now and will be used as I create a narrative for town!robz and scum!robz and then see which one makes more sense.

Well, I'm not concerned that you think I'm town. I am town. I'm concerned that you're a little too sure of your thought process for how you arrived at your opinions.

I am not sure, I do think your post against liopoil was weak(not wrong just a small reason) and didnt fully encompass what liopoil has done so far. I think this leaves open the opportunity for other players to respond to your post, they could attack you for a weak case(I would find this towny) they could join you and elaborate their own thoughts(I would find this towny) or they could join you and state that you reasoning is strong(I would find this scummy). I notice town robz doing things like this early on in a lot of games to help force players to do something that should shed some light on their alignment, so this leads me to believe you are town. But as more information comes I will continue to analyze whether you are town or scum.

I for one am glad to have you here to help read robz...I think you get him much better than I do!

[spiritbears]

And unvote
Volt seems to be genuinely scum hunting...(but I will keep an eye on him given his sqirmyness re:Yuma)

[yuma]

I'm not saying it's too early to have reads, but it's certainly too early to have accurate reads. As long as you keep in mind that you're probably almost entirely wrong in what you say, then go ahead and say it. I do think the reads lists are helpful for getting people on record and for generating conversation. Just don't put too much faith in them.

As for your argument "would this help scum yuma?" I argue that it wouldn't. Not meaningfully.

I agree with this. I am thinking yuma may have been hoping it would start a (terrible) lio wagon, so then we could see who else would join it claiming it was a good idea.

This is absolutely not what I was doing. Because it isn't a "terrible" wagon. It was a vote because I agreed with what Robz said. I was interested in seeing lio's reaction, but mostly it is because I am a strong proponent of voting when you find something scummy.

I was hardly about to be lynched any time soon, and the odds are still pretty good that I will not be the lynch today (maybe slightly more than 1/9). It isn't the time to start actively trying to lynch people. I do not think that yuma was really trying to lynch me, more that he agrees with robz's point, and so voted to get some discussion going.

This is more of what I was doing, except I don't really care about starting discussion. I mean I want discussion, but I am not going to go out of my way to force it to happen. I am just going to play and the discussion will follow. If it doesn't then I am going to call people out on it and that will probably start a discussion. But I never post or vote just to start discussion. I vote because something is scummy and I am using my vote to say that I think it is and is worthy of a vote.

Now for mcmc's early "case" on me.

Does anyone see how similar it is to Dsell's case on me from last game's blitz? I sure do. In that game dsell basically created a case on me for "not having original thoughts" within the first few hours of the game. Mcmc is basically doing the same thing here. OMG! Yuma posted a vote w/o adding anything to the case!! No original thought!!! He must be trying to play it safe and get on the wagon early!

Maybe if we actually looked at the context. I have had one post in this game. One. Why? Because I am a busy man and sometimes dont' have time to post, last night was such a time. But post I did what I could. It was what 12 hours in the game? There was very little to add to what robz had said already. Anything else would ahve just been unnecessary words... fluff, useless.

What I am seeing here is the same thing I saw in dsell and the same thing I correctly called him out on. This--not trying to get on a wagon 12 hours into the game so mafia can play it safe--is a tactic that mafia uses. Creating a case that looks good but is based on... nothing but bad assumptions and distortions. Why do they do it? Because it moves the topic of conversation away from themselves and the longer that can be the case, mafia will prosper.

So here I am going to vote: mcmc. Again, just like in the blitz game. This isn't a OMGUS vote. It isn't. It is a vote because mcmc created a bad case on me, a case that I have seen scum use in the past--just last game for example. If mcmc had pushed this case on any other player I would have called it out as well in the same way I am doing now...

[spiritbears]

I'm not sure I see the similarity Yuma.  And I hardly think mc is making a fake case. Your reaction to it is interesting though.  I don't see it as omgus, though....

[nkirbit]

Yuma, there is a difference between here and blitz.. Here, mcmc came after you more for sheeting another vote, which wasn't exactly what dsell did... He came after you for not being proactive, right?  Which is different

[Robz888]

I wasn't in the blitz game so can't comment on that. I disagree with all and any suspicion toward Yuma for agreeing with me on lio. That said, is mcmc scum trying to drive a case on Yuma? It's an interesting question. Well, I would say probably not. He's more likely to be misguided town, then some scum already trying to drive a bad lynch. Of course his whole theory is Yuma is scum doing exactly that. But I think he is wrong. For now, just wrong, not scum.

[Robz888]

And unvote
Volt seems to be genuinely scum hunting...(but I will keep an eye on him given his sqirmyness re:Yuma)

In what way is volt scum hunting?

[spiritbears]

I wasn't in the blitz game so can't comment on that. I disagree with all and any suspicion toward Yuma for agreeing with me on lio. That said, is mcmc scum trying to drive a case on Yuma? It's an interesting question. Well, I would say probably not. He's more likely to be misguided town, then some scum already trying to drive a bad lynch. Of course his whole theory is Yuma is scum doing exactly that. But I think he is wrong. For now, just wrong, not scum.

Youre saying town on town violence?  Could be

[liopoil]

I'm really buying Yuma's points on mcmc. I was thinking along those lines but couldn't quite put it together. I guess you could call this sheeping. I'll go back to my RVS vote, not RVS anymore:

Vote: Mcmcalot

[spiritbears]

And unvote
Volt seems to be genuinely scum hunting...(but I will keep an eye on him given his sqirmyness re:Yuma)

In what way is volt scum hunting?

Active participation in the discussion. Putting reads out...doing the right thing basically...

[spiritbears]

I'm really buying Yuma's points on mcmc. I was thinking along those lines but couldn't quite put it together. I guess you could call this sheeping. I'll go back to my RVS vote, not RVS anymore:

Vote: Mcmcalot

Dang lio. Just when I thought you were settling in as town....this looks bad

[yuma]

Yuma, there is a difference between here and blitz.. Here, mcmc came after you more for sheeting another vote, which wasn't exactly what dsell did... He came after you for not being proactive, right?  Which is different

No... In looking back his initial case on me was that I was flip-flopping on my reads. But once I called him out he changed it to "he hasn't had original thoughts" and "he isn't meeting his usual meta.

I had thought from memory that his initial case was that I didn't have original thoughts and then he switched from that... so I am a bit mistaken there. But I think my point still remains. Mcmc is trying to turn something that I did into a scummy action, when alone it wasn't. That is... he is trying to make a bigger deal out of it that it actually is... and to what purpose. If he is mafia... to manipulate town to having the conversation be about me and not about himself and his buddy(ies? Simple game right, 2 mafia... so buddy) and start up a lynch on what I consider (bragging warning) to be a pretty good and pro-town player. If he is town, then he is scum hunting... badly in my opinion... But I have seen these sorts of tactics often enough from mafia to be suspicious of it and call it out. Hence my vote.

[liopoil]

I'm really buying Yuma's points on mcmc. I was thinking along those lines but couldn't quite put it together. I guess you could call this sheeping. I'll go back to my RVS vote, not RVS anymore:

Vote: Mcmcalot

Dang lio. Just when I thought you were settling in as town....this looks bad

I am settling in. I feel good about that vote right now, I think it's the best we have currently.

[spiritbears]

I'm really buying Yuma's points on mcmc. I was thinking along those lines but couldn't quite put it together. I guess you could call this sheeping. I'll go back to my RVS vote, not RVS anymore:

Vote: Mcmcalot

Dang lio. Just when I thought you were settling in as town....this looks bad

I am settling in. I feel good about that vote right now, I think it's the best we have currently.

I just find that sheeping (and saying don't mind me I'm sheeping) scummy
vote liolio

[yuma]

Player List
1. spiritbears
2. chairs
3. liopoil
4. yuma
5. mcmcsalot
6. Robz888
7. Voltaire
8. nkirbit
9. mail-mi

Eevee isn't in this game? No eevee? How didn't I notice this before... What to do without eevee? and why do I have a bunch of thoughts and reads subscribed to eevee for this game? I could have sworn he had a town read on voltaire...

[spiritbears]

Player List
1. spiritbears
2. chairs
3. liopoil
4. yuma
5. mcmcsalot
6. Robz888
7. Voltaire
8. nkirbit
9. mail-mi

Eevee isn't in this game? No eevee? How didn't I notice this before... What to do without eevee? and why do I have a bunch of thoughts and reads subscribed to eevee for this game? I could have sworn he had a town read on voltaire...

Ummm.  Not sure that helps your case
....imagining pokemon

[liopoil]

I'm really buying Yuma's points on mcmc. I was thinking along those lines but couldn't quite put it together. I guess you could call this sheeping. I'll go back to my RVS vote, not RVS anymore:

Vote: Mcmcalot

Dang lio. Just when I thought you were settling in as town....this looks bad

I am settling in. I feel good about that vote right now, I think it's the best we have currently.

I just find that sheeping (and saying don't mind me I'm sheeping) scummy
vote liolio

I didn't say anything like that. Look, I agree with Yuma, and since there's so little, I have nothing to add! what's wrong with that? You can't call Yuma's vote on me any better, he was sheeping robz888.

[spiritbears]

But it's also the timing of you jumping on that train....just looks bad all around

[liopoil]

can you explain what's bad about the timing?

[liopoil]

I mean, I posted that right after I read Yuma's post..... so it's not like I could really controlled the timing. Would it have been less scummy in your mind if I had waited 2 hours or something? I certainly hope not...

[spiritbears]

I mean, I posted that right after I read Yuma's post..... so it's not like I could really controlled the timing. Would it have been less scummy in your mind if I had waited 2 hours or something? I certainly hope not...

No I just mean jumping on the wagon like that....positioning not timing I guess

[Robz888]

But it's also the timing of you jumping on that train....just looks bad all around

No. It's not the timing. You're wrong. It's the phrasing! He called it sheeping. You don't call your own actions sheeping, unless you are worried they are going to look sheepy. A confident townie just calls it "agreeing."

[Robz888]

Player List
1. spiritbears
2. chairs
3. liopoil
4. yuma
5. mcmcsalot
6. Robz888
7. Voltaire
8. nkirbit
9. mail-mi

Eevee isn't in this game? No eevee? How didn't I notice this before... What to do without eevee? and why do I have a bunch of thoughts and reads subscribed to eevee for this game? I could have sworn he had a town read on voltaire...

I thought that was weird too, but I played him in Goko today, and he said he just forgot to sign up. He eve PMed shraeye asking where his role PM was!

[Robz888]

Lio is kind of scummy, SB is kind of scummy for going after lio for the wrong reasons. Yuma seems like persecuted town yuma right now. Mcmc seems like woefully misguided town mcmc. These are all weak reads.

Im actually real curious in the other people. Who are they? Voltaire? Chairs? Nkirbit? Is that all? Oh, and mail-mi. Well, it's Techno Free Tuesday, I guess.

Nkirbit and chairs don't have much presence to me right now.

[spiritbears]

Lio is kind of scummy, SB is kind of scummy for going after lio for the wrong reasons. Yuma seems like persecuted town yuma right now. Mcmc seems like woefully misguided town mcmc. These are all weak reads.

Im actually real curious in the other people. Who are they? Voltaire? Chairs? Nkirbit? Is that all? Oh, and mail-mi. Well, it's Techno Free Tuesday, I guess.

Nkirbit and chairs don't have much presence to me right now.

Wring reason?!?! Man did you even bother to read my post above that...where I said the problem was him sheeping and saying don't mind me sheeping......

[mail-mi]

Does any one else think SB is acting odd? Just a bit off from his town self?

But it's also the timing of you jumping on that train....just looks bad all around

And then fixing it hastily:

I mean, I posted that right after I read Yuma's post..... so it's not like I could really controlled the timing. Would it have been less scummy in your mind if I had waited 2 hours or something? I certainly hope not...

No I just mean jumping on the wagon like that....positioning not timing I guess

I'm really buying Yuma's points on mcmc. I was thinking along those lines but couldn't quite put it together. I guess you could call this sheeping. I'll go back to my RVS vote, not RVS anymore:

Vote: Mcmcalot

Dang lio. Just when I thought you were settling in as town....this looks bad

I am settling in. I feel good about that vote right now, I think it's the best we have currently.

I just find that sheeping (and saying don't mind me I'm sheeping) scummy
vote liolio

Why are people voting for sheeping when that's pretty much all you can do right now?

vote: SB

[Robz888]

Lio is kind of scummy, SB is kind of scummy for going after lio for the wrong reasons. Yuma seems like persecuted town yuma right now. Mcmc seems like woefully misguided town mcmc. These are all weak reads.

Im actually real curious in the other people. Who are they? Voltaire? Chairs? Nkirbit? Is that all? Oh, and mail-mi. Well, it's Techno Free Tuesday, I guess.

Nkirbit and chairs don't have much presence to me right now.

Wring reason?!?! Man did you even bother to read my post above that...where I said the problem was him sheeping and saying don't mind me sheeping......

Okay, yeah, you did. The timing argument was dumb tho.

[spiritbears]

Mai is this just omgus for my miskynch in mean girls?

[spiritbears]

As for "fixing it hastily". Give me a break. I was just clarifying whst I meant. And no it wasn't a dumb argument robz. Lio jumped on that wagon very conveniently...

[mcmcsalot]

I'm not saying it's too early to have reads, but it's certainly too early to have accurate reads. As long as you keep in mind that you're probably almost entirely wrong in what you say, then go ahead and say it. I do think the reads lists are helpful for getting people on record and for generating conversation. Just don't put too much faith in them.

As for your argument "would this help scum yuma?" I argue that it wouldn't. Not meaningfully.

I agree with this. I am thinking yuma may have been hoping it would start a (terrible) lio wagon, so then we could see who else would join it claiming it was a good idea.

Baisically I am saying I find that a credible reason for robz post, but yuma's falls on the other side of jining claiming its a good idea. This is because where do you draw the line? I think its credible to join if you give reasoning and advance the case, scum doesn't want to do that they just hop on which is what yuma did.

Yeah but isn't that patently obvious how scummy that is? It's a ton of wine for D1 for scum!yuma to go for it like that. He'd need, what, 3 more people to hop on and nobody to point out how weird his vote was.

Volt did you not read my post in which I explain exactly what you said, reread and present me a reason you think my case on Yuma is not relevant. Lets not have this extended back and forth of "but this" and "but that" I think Yuma is scummy for the case I made and feel no need to restate it while you ask about it without referring to it. Sorry if that came off mean, it's just a pet peeve and something I think is detrimental to town cases so I don't want town players to do it.

[mcmcsalot]

I was hardly about to be lynched any time soon, and the odds are still pretty good that I will not be the lynch today (maybe slightly more than 1/9). It isn't the time to start actively trying to lynch people. I do not think that yuma was really trying to lynch me, more that he agrees with robz's point, and so voted to get some discussion going.

Right. Exactly.

Oh because he has been so so active in promoting discussion since then...

[yuma]

I was hardly about to be lynched any time soon, and the odds are still pretty good that I will not be the lynch today (maybe slightly more than 1/9). It isn't the time to start actively trying to lynch people. I do not think that yuma was really trying to lynch me, more that he agrees with robz's point, and so voted to get some discussion going.

Right. Exactly.

Oh because he has been so so active in promoting discussion since then...

how long has this game been going on again?

[yuma]

oh, wait, I remember a whole 36 hours!

[nkirbit]

Yuma has exactly one post, in which he "totally agrees" with robz and votes me. I'm not sure what I think of that yet...

Yuma is definitely hanging back on purpose. To what end, will be interesting to see.

So people aren't liking mcmc's post either?

I disagree with some of his conclusions, but still think its a good post

Which conclusions?

I think that Lio has been different, but not necessarily in a scummy way.  At least not obviously to me.

As I've stated, I think his case on Yuma was bad.  Yuma voted Lio because Lio was acting differently than he usually does.. everyone had realized that regardless of whether or not Robz pointed it out.  But, had Yuma legitimately been interested in starting a case on Lio, he would not have pointed out the behavior immediately.  It struck me much more as Yuma agreeing that something was off than Yuma trying to get a wagon going.  It's just too early in the game for scum to be trying to start a serious wagon on a player.

[shraeye]

THREAD LOCKED

This thread is locked until I receive a PM from each player; no in-thread discussion regarding this lock will be allowed until after the game is completed.

[shraeye]

Well, the jig is up.  I'll tell you all why the thread lock happened, I made a bad mistake.  A piece of info about a player's alignment was posted to the wrong quicktopic thread, and it was seen by at least one pair of eyes.  Thanks for being honest!  Unfortunately for anyone who was excited about their role, because the mistake was purely mine and I don't want to throw anyone out of this game for something beyond their fault, I plan on restarting.


So now we're restarting; and I'm using purple from here on out.  Purple=good mod.

I have rerolled the entire setup and will send out PMs (we are still using the outline of the 2of4 setup).  Because there is potential for confusion, respond to your new PM by stating your new updated role, and this will serve as confirmation.  Mafia will have time to chat, and we will restart anew on Friday.  At that time, i'll probably also clear the thread of all obsolete-game posts, unless somebody can think of a good reason not to.

[nkirbit]

I think that you should announce the roles in the broken game.  Otherwise, the scum in that game have an advantage the non-scum do not... They have a half days of impressions of people in this group, knowing which roles they were, whereas non-scum can't use this information because they don't know which players were scum or not.

Also, no worries about the mistake.  It happens.  Thanks again for hosting games to make playing mafia possible for us!

[shraeye]

Old game, using old color....Scumteam was Robz/spiritbears.  Everybody else was town.  Now no person has exclusive info about another's old-alignment.  Specific roles are irrelevant.


This thread will now be locked because we are entering Confirmation Stage.  Please continue to bring any concerns to me via PM, and hold discussion of this event for either the endgame, or when you arrive in the Spec QT.

[shraeye]

Welcome to Back To Basics: For Real This Time

Everything is as it was.  Except for the parts that changed.  You know.  Same same but different.

Soooo, carry on.  With your platypus.  I mean, with your accusations.  Man, those two words are nothing alike.


DAY 1 START

[shraeye]

Vote Count 1.1

Not voting: chairs, liopoil, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, nkirbit, Robz888, spiritbears, Voltaire, yuma

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

[nkirbit]

Hi again!

[Robz888]

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH

[Robz888]

This is just really, really deflating. I know it was an accident, but man, I wish the person who came to know too much had just been replaced with Eevee or something.

[nkirbit]

What happened happened. Nothing we can do other than making the best of this game.

[yuma]

This is just really, really deflating. I know it was an accident, but man, I wish the person who came to know too much had just been replaced with Eevee or something.

That actually would have been a good idea. I will admit to being the "man who knew too much" and would have given up my spot if either I or shraeye had thought of the idea beforehand... alas... we didn't.

So I am going to ask this and see what people think... does having this game restart affect how we play or scum hunt? Will it affect how mafia play? I think the answer to the first is unfortunately yes... but is it really unfortunate? I don't know. Unfortunate because I automatically am less suspicious of spiritbears and Robz. I knew probability and all that jazz and that they have just as good of a chance to being scum this time around as last time, but I still can't get that feeling out of my head.

As for how mafia play? I think it is an intriguing thought. How would your mindset change from playing a game where you thought you were town initially but then ended up being mafia. Will you post different? Will your attitude be different? I think yes. I am at least going to keep this in the back of my head as I am looking at everything.

[mail-mi]

Aww dang and my case on SB was right?

Anyway I guess I'm back to vote: chairs.

Jk unvote

[Robz888]

This is just really, really deflating. I know it was an accident, but man, I wish the person who came to know too much had just been replaced with Eevee or something.

That actually would have been a good idea. I will admit to being the "man who knew too much" and would have given up my spot if either I or shraeye had thought of the idea beforehand... alas... we didn't.

So I am going to ask this and see what people think... does having this game restart affect how we play or scum hunt? Will it affect how mafia play? I think the answer to the first is unfortunately yes... but is it really unfortunate? I don't know. Unfortunate because I automatically am less suspicious of spiritbears and Robz. I knew probability and all that jazz and that they have just as good of a chance to being scum this time around as last time, but I still can't get that feeling out of my head.

As for how mafia play? I think it is an intriguing thought. How would your mindset change from playing a game where you thought you were town initially but then ended up being mafia. Will you post different? Will your attitude be different? I think yes. I am at least going to keep this in the back of my head as I am looking at everything.

I thought of it immediately. Unfortunately, I wrongly assumed that option had been considered and discarded. FUCK.

[spiritbears]

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH

.yes.
Ugggggg to the
261th degree. ,,,

[nkirbit]

I don't know, Yuma.  I won't be holding people to playing exactly like they did in the original game.  For example, Lio was different in the original game, and turned out to be town, so there's that.

Honestly, I've played with almost everyone in the game before, so I'm going to be holding them much more accountable to previous games than I will to the first one here.  I hadn't yet formed any serious opinions on anyone, and hadn't re-read anything, so I just don't have much to reference in the original game.  Half of it was RVS and meaningless stuff anyway.

[spiritbears]

Yuma I think you coming forward was extremely commendable. Thank you for your honesty, esp in a game where the whole point is to be dishonest sometimes.
  My respect for you is tremendous

Anyway. I'm not sure whst I posted last night, spent the night in and out if seizures
So I hope ibdidntruin the game
Or any others

[chairs]

Cheers, let's just enjoy

as for you, Yuma..

[mail-mi]

Haha take a seat... posted by chairs... lol.

[Voltaire]

Thanks to yuma for coming forward and to shraeye for getting the game back up and running!

The good news is that we sorta don't even need to RVS anymore! Different roles, different alignments, different game! I, for one, am going to enjoy this game of Heads Up/Seven Up.

[mail-mi]

I claim scum town!

[liopoil]

I feel like the incident was handled well. You can't just kick out Yuma for accidentally seeing whatever he saw. It sucks for Spiritbears and Robz888 because they lost a chance to be scum (if they're town this time), and any PRs too. But reset was really the only option I can think of besides Yuma being replaced. And how would shraeye explain the need for Yuma to be replaced? He couldn't say that he found out someone's alignment, because that means that he was town (scum already know everyone's alignment).

anyway, it's good to be back, that lull was boooooring!

I'm fine with skipping RVS, we did that last time, no need to do it again.

[Robz888]

I feel like the incident was handled well. You can't just kick out Yuma for accidentally seeing whatever he saw. It sucks for Spiritbears and Robz888 because they lost a chance to be scum (if they're town this time), and any PRs too. But reset was really the only option I can think of besides Yuma being replaced. And how would shraeye explain the need for Yuma to be replaced? He couldn't say that he found out someone's alignment, because that means that he was town (scum already know everyone's alignment).

anyway, it's good to be back, that lull was boooooring!

I'm fine with skipping RVS, we did that last time, no need to do it again.

I disagree, and am kind of pissed, but I guess there isn't really any point in continuing the conversation. I know I'm not like entitled to get to be mafia, but man it still sucks. But oh well.

[chairs]

I think it would've been funny to see how it played out, with Yuma knowing at least one person's alignment for sure, but nobody being able to confirm that Yuma wasn't actually scum.

HOWEVER!

Back to RVS.

Vote: liopoil

[chairs]

I think it would've been funny to see how it played out, with Yuma knowing at least one person's alignment for sure, but nobody being able to confirm that Yuma wasn't actually scum.

HOWEVER!

Back to RVS.

Vote: liopoil

Scratch that, I just read liopoil's post again where he said not to bother with RVS.

Unvote

However, opting to skip the opportunity to perhaps gain more insight towards who the new scum are... could be scummy.

ET TU LIOPOIL?

[nkirbit]

Vote: Liopoil

Why are you less energetic than last time??

[liopoil]

I already said everything I needed to say in my first post of last game. Now I just wait for something to happen. . I also agree with what robz said before, that saying non-serious stuff is bad because if town gets away with it that scum have an excuse to post stuff like that which isn't helpful. I'm energetic about this game, excited to catch the new scum, but there's been what, 20 posts so far?

I doubt that we could form any sort of reads from RVS, but if you think that could happen, go ahead.

Actually, I'll quote my first post from last time, it's still relevant: (I only included still-important stuff)

Hello everyone!

shraeye thinks we should ignore post counts. I propose we follow NLLL (never lynch lurkers literally) 

oh hey, an open setup, let's have some theory talk!

there are 6 possible setups, some favor town (cop+doc or cop+JK for instance) more than others (like VT+doc). scum also have the potential to fakeclaim. I am not going to trust claimants in general, but of course, it will depend on the situation. Most importantly:

I believe that in this setup a massclaim is almost NEVER a good idea. All 3 potential PRs have situations where they should claim though, but we'll get to those situations as they arise. For D1, nobody should ever claim anything unless they are L-1 with an intent to hammer.

I can not think of any situations where a VT should claim anything at all or a PR should claim anything but what they actually are.

Most of that theory stuff is basic, but hey, why not say it again. this is, however, hopefully the first and last time I talk about theory today. In previous games, I've gotten too caught up in theory talk and didn't do enough scumhunting. I dislike D1 because there is so little of any material at all, so that's part of why I don't scumhunt as much. I have also somehow generally been in the top few posters at all times during games. I'm not sure why that is, we'll see if it continues. I think I've been accused of trying to inflate my postcount before by posting multiple things that could have just been one post. Well, that isn't true, but I can see how that could clutter the thread. So my plan:

less theory talk, more scumhunting. Try to find something to grasp onto even on D1. More efficient posting. (like this post!)

[liopoil]

ET TU LIOPOIL?

you say after unvoting... and me?

[chairs]

ET TU LIOPOIL?

you say after unvoting... and me?

I'm not sure as I agree with Robz.  I'd argue that more chatter, even if it's primarily noise, gives us more opportunity for scum to slip up and say something that (directly or indirectly) outs them.

I was also teasing you about not being enthusiastic about the idea of badposting in the name of finding the scum, by comparing you to beloved Brutus, that most noble of traitors, who did successfully win his Mafia game against Caesar by pretending to be a VT even to the end of the game.

[mail-mi]

I know mcmc was JK in abandoned game, were there any others? Just curious.

[spiritbears]

Self-referencing lio?
vote lio

[chairs]

I know mcmc was JK in abandoned game, were there any others? Just curious.

I thought we weren't supposed to talk about the PRs from the last game?

(Also this whole abbreviation thing is fun )

[mail-mi]

I know mcmc was JK in abandoned game, were there any others? Just curious.

I thought we weren't supposed to talk about the PRs from the last game?

(Also this whole abbreviation thing is fun )

We aren't? Okay.

[liopoil]

I don't think there's a problem with that. Last game I was VT.

[mail-mi]

I don't think there's a problem with that. Last game I was VT.

[liopoil]

Man, I don't think RobzVotingStage is a thing anymore, it's LVS (liopoil voting stage). Seriously, this seems to happen every single game at the start of D1.

[spiritbears]

Man, I don't think RobzVotingStage is a thing anymore, it's LVS (liopoil voting stage). Seriously, this seems to happen every single game at the start of D1.

Except in liovotingstage, we aren't joking.

[liopoil]

I was under the impression robzVS wasn't joking either: people always found him scummy.

Vote: Spiritbears, because he was good at being scum last time and still could be. more importantly, he voted me for "self-referencing", then stated it wasn't a joke. In what world is self-referencing scummy?

[spiritbears]

Only scum would self reference and then declare self-refrencing to be not scummy.
And then omgus for good measure
revote for emphasis:liolololol

[liopoil]

not sure if you're serious or not. I don't think you are.

who haven't we heard from yet? mcmc again?

[spiritbears]

not sure if you're serious or not. I don't think you are.

who haven't we heard from yet? mcmc again?

Serious as a toothache
Serious as a flame
Serious as a cloud
Ok. Not quite as serious as a cloud

[yuma]

two things....

1. I get robz's frustration and I won't criticize it because I know how much he likes being mafia. However... I do wonder if it is possible that he is "playing it up" a bit. That is.... I wonder if he is mafia again and is faking the frustration and anger of no longer being mafia... Obviously not anything concrete because we don't know his current alignment, but his reaction to all of this does make me wonder...

2. I see what spiritbears is talking about regarding lio. His commentary about LVS could very easily be an attempt to deflect this vote--and perhaps what he sees as other votes that may come during the game--away from him as LVS, rather than as true votes.

Lio... why do you think people find you scummy early on in games?

[shraeye]

Vote Count 1.2

liopoil (2): nkirbit, spiritbears
spiritbears (1): liopoil

Not voting: chairs, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, Robz888, Voltaire, yuma

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

[Robz888]

1. I get robz's frustration and I won't criticize it because I know how much he likes being mafia. However... I do wonder if it is possible that he is "playing it up" a bit. That is.... I wonder if he is mafia again and is faking the frustration and anger of no longer being mafia... Obviously not anything concrete because we don't know his current alignment, but his reaction to all of this does make me wonder...

Sure, it's possible. And it's something you're wise to consider. I just... I don't know how I am supposed to get excited to scumhunt here, given my track record in the last two games. And on top of that, the reset.

[Robz888]

Well, whining about it doesn't help I guess.

[Robz888]

Voltaire and mcmc haven't checked in yet.

Nkirbit... you seemed really, uh, ready to go, right when the thread opened up. Care to comment?

[spiritbears]

Well, whining about it doesn't help I guess.

Maybe not help anyone else.
But who cares about anyone else huh
Ex scum only care about themselves....

[nkirbit]

I was online when Shraeye opened the thread, saw it was open, and posted.  /shrug.

[liopoil]

Voltaire and mcmc haven't checked in yet.

Nkirbit... you seemed really, uh, ready to go, right when the thread opened up. Care to comment?

voltaire has.

2. I see what spiritbears is talking about regarding lio. His commentary about LVS could very easily be an attempt to deflect this vote--and perhaps what he sees as other votes that may come during the game--away from him as LVS, rather than as true votes.

Lio... why do you think people find you scummy early on in games?

they don't really feel like serious votes, and I have no clue what "serious as a toothache or flame, but not as serious as a cloud" means.

I think I get a lot of votes early in games because A) I post a lot, and people higher in the postcounts get more attention, and B) I don't make much of an effort to appear towny, I'm more open and post whatever I'm thinking at the start of games. I trust you all to accurately read me as town because I am town.  Not all of you do that though, and some of the things that I post without worrying about if I'm going to get suspected for it can be scummy. I should probably try harder to look towny even when I'm town, because getting mislynched hurts town a lot. I've never been mislynched yet though, so I haven't hurt town like that yet.

[mcmcsalot]

Well now, I was very excited to actually get to do something with my awesome pr for once and no I don't get too so I understand the frustration. I did notice robz could have been playing it up, in fact I think he was playing up the frustration(the posting about felt out of character) I'm just not sure that means he's scum again.

Spirit got a bit screwed, now we all know what he looks like as scum...exactly the same...so my constant fear of him being scum is still a legitimate fear. For now I am going to continue to find him towny.

Yuma and liopoil have "reacted" the most I think about the reset and hange to a new game. I think liopoil comes off looking scummy and Yuma looking townie.

[liopoil]

I did notice robz could have been playing it up, in fact I think he was playing up the frustration(the posting about felt out of character) I'm just not sure that means he's scum again.

Spirit got a bit screwed, now we all know what he looks like as scum...exactly the same...so my constant fear of him being scum is still a legitimate fear. For now I am going to continue to find him towny.

Yuma and liopoil have "reacted" the most I think about the reset and hange to a new game. I think liopoil comes off looking scummy and Yuma looking townie.

woah Vote: Mcmcsalot. This post is nothing like your first post of last game. The first post of last game made sense, this one doesn't:

You think robz888 is faking the frustration? possible for sure. However, you say you're not sure that means he's scum again. If robz is faking the frustration, how could he NOT be scum? Personally, I believe the frustration, we all know robz likes being scum. Also, you say you understand the frustration, but then don't believe it because it felt out of character. What was out of character about robz?

why are you just handing SB towncred? I don't understand... you need to try to differenciate between town!sb and scum!sb. Just because their similar is no reason to assume he's town.

you say both Yuma and I have changed a lot. Both of us were town last game. Why does that make me scummy but not Yuma?? and how have we changed?

[nkirbit]

Unvote

My vote on Lio wasn't actually serious.  I was just hoping to get this game going.

Vote: Mcmc for claiming VT.  He may be lying either as town or scum, but come on man.

[Robz888]

I also policy vote against VT claimants. Vote: mcmcsalot

[liopoil]

I certainly hope that wasn't a VT claim. I saw it and didn't say anything, even left it out of my quote, so as not to draw attention to it. I think he could be a PR again.

[mail-mi]

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

[liopoil]

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

you can't possibly assume stuff like that. nkirbit, robz and I could very well all be townies who jumped on scum!mcmc's scummy first post. Maybe not, but it could very well be.

[spiritbears]

I think some people here are trying extra hard to read scum into mc's post. If you think that was a Vt claim, you are sadly mistaken imo.  And why the hell would his first post be exactly like his first post before the reset?!?!  No one should b making the same post over again....that would just be scummy

[liopoil]

well of course. I'm saying that I agreed with what he was saying last time, and strongly disagree with many of the things he said this time.

[chairs]

Well now, I was very excited to actually get to do something with my awesome pr for once and no I don't get too so I understand the frustration. I did notice robz could have been playing it up, in fact I think he was playing up the frustration(the posting about felt out of character) I'm just not sure that means he's scum again.

Spirit got a bit screwed, now we all know what he looks like as scum...exactly the same...so my constant fear of him being scum is still a legitimate fear. For now I am going to continue to find him towny.

Yuma and liopoil have "reacted" the most I think about the reset and hange to a new game. I think liopoil comes off looking scummy and Yuma looking townie.

I'm kind of intrigued, as I really feel Yuma comes off scummy this game, as well as you and spiritbears.  Robz could be coming off scummy (I don't know him well enough to know if this kind of petulant whining is normal), but I'm leaving him neutral in my mind for now.

So my current list of potential scum, in descending order of confidence, is:
Vote: Yuma
mcmcsalot
spiritbears

[nkirbit]

Why do you think Yuma is scummy?

[chairs]

Well now, I was very excited to actually get to do something with my awesome pr for once and no I don't get too so I understand the frustration. I did notice robz could have been playing it up, in fact I think he was playing up the frustration(the posting about felt out of character) I'm just not sure that means he's scum again.

Spirit got a bit screwed, now we all know what he looks like as scum...exactly the same...so my constant fear of him being scum is still a legitimate fear. For now I am going to continue to find him towny.

Yuma and liopoil have "reacted" the most I think about the reset and hange to a new game. I think liopoil comes off looking scummy and Yuma looking townie.

I'm kind of intrigued, as I really feel Yuma comes off scummy this game, as well as you and spiritbears.  Robz could be coming off scummy (I don't know him well enough to know if this kind of petulant whining is normal), but I'm leaving him neutral in my mind for now.

So my current list of potential scum, in descending order of confidence, is:
Vote: Yuma
mcmcsalot
spiritbears

Errr, add liopoil into that "potential scum" list, at the bottom, but he's got effectively a neutral case as well.   And Nkirbit I was writing this as you replied, let me find the relevant yuma quotes And I'll throw it in as a new post.

[chairs]

Why do you think Yuma is scummy?

On further inspection, the scummy post from Yuma was in the prior game.  Thanks for asking for the clarification!

Vote: mcmcsalot

[liopoil]

woah, that's L-1. Probably not a good idea when the guy has exactly one post...

[nkirbit]

Yeah, geez, unvote for now.

Chairs throwing out the fact that he has scumreads on half the other players makes his scumreads kind of meaningless at this point.

Why exactly do you find mcmc scummy, chairs?  And lio, and SB?  You didn't really provide reasons for any of your reads.

[nkirbit]

Errr, add liopoil into that "potential scum" list, at the bottom, but he's got effectively a neutral case as well.

Confused by this.. if lipoil has a neutral case, why is he "potential scum"?

[liopoil]

...we're all potential scum...

[nkirbit]

Well, yeah, but we all didn't make it onto chairs' list.

[shraeye]

Vote Count 1.3

liopoil (1): spiritbears
mcmcsalot (3): liopoil, Robz888, chairs

Not voting: mail-mi, mcmcsalot, Voltaire, yuma, nkirbit

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

[mail-mi]

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

you can't possibly assume stuff like that. nkirbit, robz and I could very well all be townies who jumped on scum!mcmc's scummy first post. Maybe not, but it could very well be.

Okay, I think that's too quick of a wagon...

[chairs]

Yeah, geez, unvote for now.

Chairs throwing out the fact that he has scumreads on half the other players makes his scumreads kind of meaningless at this point.

Why exactly do you find mcmc scummy, chairs?  And lio, and SB?  You didn't really provide reasons for any of your reads.

I'm going to try to make sure I don't miss any quotes this time, and I'll try to detail my suspicions.

First off: mcmcsalot seems to be making a VT claim in what I had quoted; as there's no reason to make a VT claim ever, it seems reasonable to believe that he is more likely than not scum.  As this is Day 1, my normal strategy (with folks that I play with IRL) is to head towards a no-lynch, but as I've been advised this is a terrible idea in practice by folks who have played this game more often than myself, I felt that as the one who the argument could be made most strongly for, he'd have my vote.  That being said, forum Mafia's a bit of a different beast than I'm used to (we're making decisions in days, rather than minutes) so I can see the justification/argument made for an Unvote until we can attempt to gather more evidence.

Second: spiritbears.  His liopoil voting seems... odd.. and his posting in general somewhat erratic (which in my IRL games has usually suggested someone trying to sound random enough that any potential scumpost comes off as just random).  He's also potentially covering for mc's VT claim - see:

I think some people here are trying extra hard to read scum into mc's post. If you think that was a Vt claim, you are sadly mistaken imo.  And why the hell would his first post be exactly like his first post before the reset?!?!  No one should b making the same post over again....that would just be scummy

.  That being said, the arguments I have against spiritbears are softer ones than the argument that a soft VT claim implies scum, so I rated him lower than mc.

Third: liopoil.  It kind of feels like the below quote is to the detriment of our game, if RVS was useful in the first iteration, why wouldn't it be useful in the fresh game?  We've lost effectively all knowledge gained from the prior game other than perhaps something to compare posters to, so I don't understand why a little RVS wouldn't simply garner us additional information.  That said, this is (in my mind) still a very weak argument, but made him less neutral in my head compared to those who I didn't list.

I feel like the incident was handled well. You can't just kick out Yuma for accidentally seeing whatever he saw. It sucks for Spiritbears and Robz888 because they lost a chance to be scum (if they're town this time), and any PRs too. But reset was really the only option I can think of besides Yuma being replaced. And how would shraeye explain the need for Yuma to be replaced? He couldn't say that he found out someone's alignment, because that means that he was town (scum already know everyone's alignment).

anyway, it's good to be back, that lull was boooooring!

I'm fine with skipping RVS, we did that last time, no need to do it again.

Does that clear up my position at all?

[liopoil]

I don't think RVS helped us last time...

apart from that, very nice post. I think saying that mcmc claimed VT is an exaggeration.

[spiritbears]

I'm not covering for a Vt claim. I'm saying it Isnt a Vt claim.

[spiritbears]

Is that vote count actually right? I didn't see mc vote for himself and can't fathom a situation where he would....

[nkirbit]

Is that vote count actually right? I didn't see mc vote for himself and can't fathom a situation where he would....

I think robz and mcmc should be swtiched. 

[yuma]

couple of things:

First about mcmc's post:

Well now, I was very excited to actually get to do something with my awesome pr for once and no I don't get too so I understand the frustration. I did notice robz could have been playing it up, in fact I think he was playing up the frustration(the posting about felt out of character) I'm just not sure that means he's scum again.

People are calling this out as a VT-claim. It obviously isn't a claim. If anything it is a mistake saying that he is no longer able to use his PRs... But more importantly I now have a huge townread on him. Because I do think it is a mistake and it is a mistake that only town could do. If mcmc is mafia in this situation he is automatically going to be thinking about PRs... because if he is mafia he has cool prs this game--NKs!!! what is cooler than that--so he wouldn't be able to make that mistake and say that he had nothing awesome going on. As town, it is a very easy mistake to make. I don't mind talking about it, because hey... it is out there. Mafia obviously saw it and I am not pointing anything out that is new. It sucks a bit because we have one less person that could be a NK thus making their NKs perhaps slightly more effective. But I think it was worth it in the end, because I now strongly think that mcmc is town. Top town read for me at this point..

Thus I am now pretty suspicious of people who voted for mcmc.... lio, robz, nkirtib and chairs.

Lio voted, but not about the claim.
Robz has a policy vote... I get policy votes... I do them for self voting, but they are also a good place to cover yourself. I have voted for someone as mafia for self voting and it was nice because I could hide my vote that way.
nkirbit's is also a policy vote apparently, but he doesn't have the history of policy voting in such a way.
chairs.... his vote is the most suspicious.

This is why he thinks mcmc is suspicious:

First off: mcmcsalot seems to be making a VT claim in what I had quoted; as there's no reason to make a VT claim ever, it seems reasonable to believe that he is more likely than not scum.  As this is Day 1, my normal strategy (with folks that I play with IRL) is to head towards a no-lynch, but as I've been advised this is a terrible idea in practice by folks who have played this game more often than myself, I felt that as the one who the argument could be made most strongly for, he'd have my vote.  That being said, forum Mafia's a bit of a different beast than I'm used to (we're making decisions in days, rather than minutes) so I can see the justification/argument made for an Unvote until we can attempt to gather more evidence.

Lots of text... He starts off talking about mcmc, but doens't expalin why it makes him more likely to be scum but in the end says very little of the paragraph about mcmc.  I have done this before as mafia. Where I start out with a read and end up moving the topic of conversation away from that read within the paragraph... why? Because I actually don't have anything there and it is hard to make stuff up... so I just talk and talk and hope that no one notices that I am no longer talking about mcmc anymore...

and then there is this:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

so right now I am most suspicious of mail-mi and chairs...

I'll vote for either... vote: mail-mi

[Robz888]

Vote: chairs

His mcmc voted struck me as wagoning, and was a little dangerous. Yeah, I didn't really think mcmc was claiming VT, I just wanted to gauge reactions. And we got one: a scummy one, from chairs.

[yuma]

Why do you think Yuma is scummy?

On further inspection, the scummy post from Yuma was in the prior game.  Thanks for asking for the clarification!

Vote: mcmcsalot

which post was it from the previous game?

Are we allowed to ask things about that? I can't think of a reason why not... but don't want to go into forbidden territory unawares...

[chairs]

Why do you think Yuma is scummy?

On further inspection, the scummy post from Yuma was in the prior game.  Thanks for asking for the clarification!

Vote: mcmcsalot

which post was it from the previous game?

Are we allowed to ask things about that? I can't think of a reason why not... but don't want to go into forbidden territory unawares...

TBH I don't recall, when I went back to find it and noticed I hadn't found it by beginning of fresh copy, I scrapped looking for it again and withdrew my statement.

[spiritbears]

I really have to wonder about chairs.  Not just the folding kind.  But the kind here that keep bringing up a scummy move, even after they have been told we view it as beneficial to scum not town....trying too hard to make mc look scummy while deflecting it's (are chairs of the male persuasion?) scummiwh move (working toward no-lynch).
vote chase lounges

[nkirbit]

I don't think Chairs is working towards a no-lynch, once he realized we were all opposed to it.

Coming into a mafia game, it doesn't seem like the most ridiculous idea, either.  We have little information, wait for a kill, etc. etc.  But I don't get the sense that he's pushing for the no-lynch at all, SB.

[nkirbit]

and then there is this:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

I'm not sure what to think of this.  I used this same logic as town in the last blitz game when deciding to vote insomniac over Eevee (although I was mistaken), and have thought the same thing when analyzing wagons.  Mail-mi may or may not be correct, but I don't think having that line of thought makes him scummy.

The "although this was a suspicious post" is what's making me nervous, though.  The two sentences are at odds with each other.. it seems off to point out something as scummy the sentence after you concluded that it was unlikely the person was scum.  I'm not sure if I should be reading it as scum!mail-mi trying to misdirect or town!mail-mi just saying what he thinks in a stream of consciousness sort of way.  I'll keep both in mind.

[yuma]

and then there is this:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

I'm not sure what to think of this.  I used this same logic as town in the last blitz game when deciding to vote insomniac over Eevee (although I was mistaken), and have thought the same thing when analyzing wagons.  Mail-mi may or may not be correct, but I don't think having that line of thought makes him scummy.

The "although this was a suspicious post" is what's making me nervous, though.  The two sentences are at odds with each other.. it seems off to point out something as scummy the sentence after you concluded that it was unlikely the person was scum.  I'm not sure if I should be reading it as scum!mail-mi trying to misdirect or town!mail-mi just saying what he thinks in a stream of consciousness sort of way.  I'll keep both in mind.

Exactly... w/o the later statement, it is just mail-mi saying that he thinks the wagon formed on mcmc too fast. Anyone can say that. Town or mafia. So it isn't the line of thought that is scummy. It is its juxtaposition to his next statement, which alone also isn't that suspicious of a statement. Add together both the first and second statement and all of a sudden the second gives potential meaning to the first. But you are right... stream of consciousness or trying to be on both sides of the coin? I am not sure, but I am willing to try and find out more based off this alone...

[yuma]

I really have to wonder about chairs.  Not just the folding kind.  But the kind here that keep bringing up a scummy move, even after they have been told we view it as beneficial to scum not town....trying too hard to make mc look scummy while deflecting it's (are chairs of the male persuasion?) scummiwh move (working toward no-lynch).
vote chase lounges

I agree with nkirbit, working toward a no-lynch isn't going to happen. I think chairs knows this. But like I said above. What I found scummy was that he started out talking about mcmc and moved that paragraph very quickly away from mcmc--w/o explaining why he found him to be scummy, even though that was the exact thing that he was posting for having been called out previously by lio? for not offering explanations--toward the no-lynch idea...

I see it like this... need to talk about my scum read on mcmc... I don't really have a scum read on mcmc. Let's see, he claimed VT that is something, what else, nothing... hmm. this paragraph is too short, let's talk about something else... I just talk about no-lynching and not really say anything new here and hope that it fills up the paragraph enough so that no one will notice.... (I mean I dont' think chairs was thinking that exactly, but that idea of trying to put more in than is necessary to fill up a post and make it look like you are doing something and having good pro-town thoughts is a position mafia finds themselves in far too often...

[mcmcsalot]

Okay woah, I definitely wasn't claiming vt, that was a statement because in mean girls I was a jk who was behind and last secon jail kept my scum read instead of an ic, and then I got claimed against and lynched. So I was super excited to play jk again and actually be usefull(I do think it is one of the strongest roles along with cop) so the game being cancelled simple meat no more jk for me a second time. That says nothing about my current role.

Someone else asked why I felt Yuma was town and liopoil scummy. If you remember I had a scum read on Yuma and a town on liopoil when the reset started liopoil seemed off(I mean his opening posts felt like forced participation) I think if we were ever going to get a time where scum was going to not know how to act it would be here getting rolled into scum in a reset game. It could e because liopoil was very helpful and starting up conversation in the first game and lio didn't know how to do that again. But to me he started this game off just trying to be there but not really giving original content and creating discussion.

Where as Yuma this game I felt he came out right away using any and all tools to analyze how people would act and where we may catch scum, overall being protown, which this early is enough to give me a town read.

Lastly my town read on sb. I'm not giving him free town cred, I meant it like this: last game I had a strong town read I spirit bears, I felt he was being very protown, he turned out to be scum. So my instinct would be to say whenever spiritbears is really protown he has to be scum, the issue wit that is he has been very protown as town before. So to remedy this I am just going to continue to find him towny for the things I except to be towny traits and will not find him scummy unless he does something to merit a scum read.

[nkirbit]

I think it would've been funny to see how it played out, with Yuma knowing at least one person's alignment for sure, but nobody being able to confirm that Yuma wasn't actually scum.

HOWEVER!

Back to RVS.

Vote: liopoil

Scratch that, I just read liopoil's post again where he said not to bother with RVS.

Unvote

However, opting to skip the opportunity to perhaps gain more insight towards who the new scum are... could be scummy.

ET TU LIOPOIL?

This reads as Chair's being a little too eager to please to me.  Essentially undoing something at the request of another player, especially when that player doesn't have a good reason to do so, is odd.

[Voltaire]

Hey everyone. Wasn't anticipating to be away from my computer yesterday, but I was! Need to catch up on the last 2.5 pages or so.

[Robz888]

Is no one else on chairs? Do people disagree with me? He made a really scummy move. Remember that this is his first game, where if he is scum, he is likely to make accidental scum moves.

[Voltaire]

OK, caught up. I am going away from my computer in a bit, so if anyone has questions about this post, please know I won't be able to answer them for several hours.

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

I have a town read on mcmc. Frustration about losing a specific cool PR is understandable and also a huge mistake. It's a scummy move by town in my opinion.

I usually have a scumread on Robz (sorry Robz!) and I have one again now, so I'm doing like mcmc says about sb and assuming Robz is town, for now. (The scumread is that yuma talked me into thinking Robz's frustration could be a gambit, and that made me think "Of course! Robz is always being scummy!" and then I remembered that townRobz is always being scummy).

Honestly, everyone else is a null read at this point. I'll need to re-read again, but closer.

I am very happy the game is moving along as it has. Stuff is happening, and stuff is good for town. Go stuff!

[Robz888]

OK, caught up. I am going away from my computer in a bit, so if anyone has questions about this post, please know I won't be able to answer them for several hours.

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

I am also wary of yuma, mostly because he seemed to agree about chairs being scummy, but then voting mail-mi and found mail-mi scummier, which I strongly disagree with. But I mean the only scenario where this makes any sense would be yuma/chairs scumteam, so okay, that's not great evidence. I still like my case on chairs an awful lot though, and I don't think what mail-mi said was that scummy.

[nkirbit]

Robz, I do have issues with chairs.  It's odd that he came out with reads of half the other people in the game being scummy after giving no reads in the original game.  It's especially odd that he found Yuma scummy, and when pressed about it, backed off and said "oh, it was a post in the previous game, never mind."  Surely, if you're going to put someone out there, you're going to be more careful, right? (Although, that being said, that mistake would be more common for someone who plays mafia in person, where you're going entirely off of memory).  I think it's odd how he backed off his RVS vote at Lio's request.  He's done a lot of things that appear scummy to me.

I'm just a little bit worried that the case is "too easy".  Maybe I'm overthinking it, though.

[nkirbit]

I don't have much experience with in-person mafia, having only played a few broken games, but the wagoning on mcmc also feels like something an IRL scum would do.  I don't know how often a large wagon builds on a player early then collapses.. it happens all the time online, but does that sort of thing happen in real life, or would mcmc have been doomed to be the lynch?  If someone with more IRL experience could answer this, that'd be helpful.

[nkirbit]

Vote: Chairs

[chairs]

Wow, lots of talk   And a vote for me 

I suppose I do look awfully scummy, don't I?

To attempt to (quickly) address the 2-3 points I think I read re: myself...

1) I unvoted because I'm not used to the vote/unvote concept being binding, as when I have played Mafia IRL we discuss and no vote/unvote mechanism exists, so "vote: x" in my IRL equivalents happens during discussion but is not a binding vote (a key difference that lets you be as "yeah it's this guy and he's who I'd vote for" during my IRL experience that is not the case here) as we usually just have 5-10 minutes discussion and then "turn in a slip with your vote".  The N-1 situation made that more clear for me.

2) I hope 1 explains my bandwagon sufficiently; if not, I don't have much else to say in that regard.

3) I'll try to take advantage of the fact that I can go back to everything you guys say instead of just "Yeah that seems wrong" which is how I'm used to playing.  Forum mafia is awfully :science: compared to the relatively short games I'm used to.

[mail-mi]

and then there is this:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

I'm not sure what to think of this.  I used this same logic as town in the last blitz game when deciding to vote insomniac over Eevee (although I was mistaken), and have thought the same thing when analyzing wagons.  Mail-mi may or may not be correct, but I don't think having that line of thought makes him scummy.

The "although this was a suspicious post" is what's making me nervous, though.  The two sentences are at odds with each other.. it seems off to point out something as scummy the sentence after you concluded that it was unlikely the person was scum.  I'm not sure if I should be reading it as scum!mail-mi trying to misdirect or town!mail-mi just saying what he thinks in a stream of consciousness sort of way.  I'll keep both in mind.

Exactly... w/o the later statement, it is just mail-mi saying that he thinks the wagon formed on mcmc too fast. Anyone can say that. Town or mafia. So it isn't the line of thought that is scummy. It is its juxtaposition to his next statement, which alone also isn't that suspicious of a statement. Add together both the first and second statement and all of a sudden the second gives potential meaning to the first. But you are right... stream of consciousness or trying to be on both sides of the coin? I am not sure, but I am willing to try and find out more based off this alone...

It was just a stream of thought. First thought: that wagon formed really quickly, I don't think mcmc is scum. Second thought: but that was a suspicious post. Hm.

Right now I have a townish read on mcmc because scum mcmc is calm cool and collecting. Town mcmc is more clumsy.

[liopoil]

Commenting on many posts. I trimmed quotes for clarity and succinctness:

about mcmc's post:

People are calling this out as a VT-claim. It obviously isn't a claim...

Thus I am now pretty suspicious of people who voted for mcmc.... lio, robz, nkirtib and chairs.

Lio voted, but not about the claim.
Robz has a policy vote... I get policy votes... I do them for self voting, but they are also a good place to cover yourself. I have voted for someone as mafia for self voting and it was nice because I could hide my vote that way.
nkirbit's is also a policy vote apparently, but he doesn't have the history of policy voting in such a way.
chairs.... his vote is the most suspicious.

... He starts off talking about mcmc, but doens't expalin why it makes him more likely to be scum but in the end says very little of the paragraph about mcmc.  I have done this before as mafia. Where I start out with a read and end up moving the topic of conversation away from that read within the paragraph...

and then there is this:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

so right now I am most suspicious of mail-mi and chairs...

I'll vote for either... vote: mail-mi

Agreed it is clearly not a claim, and yes, like you said, I voted mcmc for different reasons. those were that the reasons he states later in the posts for things I feel to be very weak. He's clarified his reasoning in a later post, which I'll address later.

I don't think that your point on chairs is all too strong. all you say is that he went off on a tangent in the middle of his paragraph. Sure, scum can do that on purpose, but town can also accidentally go off on tangents. I read that as virtually null.

I agree with your point on mail-mi. I'll add that if mcmc is scum, it's still scummy, because it could very easily be defending his buddy. I'm not calling the scumteam, just saying that mail-mi's post is scummy no matter what mcmc's alignment is.

I really have to wonder about chairs.  Not just the folding kind.  But the kind here that keep bringing up a scummy move, even after they have been told we view it as beneficial to scum not town....trying too hard to make mc look scummy while deflecting it's (are chairs of the male persuasion?) scummiwh move (working toward no-lynch).
vote chase lounges

wait, what? Chairs hasn't mentioned no-lynch this game I think, and didn't exactly work towards a no-lynch last game either!

Someone else asked why I felt Yuma was town and liopoil scummy. If you remember I had a scum read on Yuma and a town on liopoil when the reset started liopoil seemed off(I mean his opening posts felt like forced participation) I think if we were ever going to get a time where scum was going to not know how to act it would be here getting rolled into scum in a reset game. It could e because liopoil was very helpful and starting up conversation in the first game and lio didn't know how to do that again. But to me he started this game off just trying to be there but not really giving original content and creating discussion.

Where as Yuma this game I felt he came out right away using any and all tools to analyze how people would act and where we may catch scum, overall being protown, which this early is enough to give me a town read.

Lastly my town read on sb. I'm not giving him free town cred, I meant it like this: last game I had a strong town read I spirit bears, I felt he was being very protown, he turned out to be scum. So my instinct would be to say whenever spiritbears is really protown he has to be scum, the issue wit that is he has been very protown as town before. So to remedy this I am just going to continue to find him towny for the things I except to be towny traits and will not find him scummy unless he does something to merit a scum read.

You didn't have a townread on me last game, you put me on the scummy side, as always:

Slight Scum:
liopoil --explanation here--

I think I contributed at the start enough. There was hardly anything to say. Last time because there was nothing to say so I was all jokey and smiley. I didn't do that this time. And there you go again, "he seems off". I always seem off, I guess I play each game differently. Robz jumped on me right at the start last game for being jokey and smiley. In DS9 I was town and was always on the lower end of the posting. I was the biggest poster in Bankers while I was alive, and in mean girls I had the most posts of any town-aligned player by a ton. playing each game differently I think is a good move and shouldn't be scummy.

Dude, you can't read yuma based on his level of analysis and contributions, he will ALWAYS post big helpful posts. people need to stop giving him towncred for that, it makes it too easy for him when he's scum.

Again for SB: If a player does thing you deem townie no matter what their alignment, then there's something wrong with what you deem townie. If a player does the same thing every game then them doing the same thing again has got to be a null read.

I put my vote on Mcmc because I disagreed with the way he is reasoning. Even when I don't agree with town!mcmc's conclusions, I always understand the way he came to those conclusions, and agree with his method, just disagree with the 'evidence' he used to reason with. Here, I don't agree with his reasoning at all. scum!mcmc has to make reasoning up because he knows the people he accuses are town. I think it makes sense for this to be the case, and I am keeping my vote on him for now.

Is no one else on chairs? Do people disagree with me? He made a really scummy move. Remember that this is his first game, where if he is scum, he is likely to make accidental scum moves.

Nope, don't really think that was too scummy of a move. you say his mcmc vote was "wagoning" and "dangerous". I assume you mean in regard to him putting mcmc at L-1. I think it reasonable that he didn't realize he was putting him at L-1, or that he didn't think that was too big of a deal. slightly scummy at best.

First thought: that wagon formed really quickly, I don't think mcmc is scum. Second thought: but that was a suspicious post. Hm.

Right now I have a townish read on mcmc because scum mcmc is calm cool and collecting. Town mcmc is more clumsy.

...but not because the wagon formed quickly? And I haven't seen much to suggest that mcmc is more clumsy as town...

[shraeye]

Vote Count 1.4

mcmcsalot (1): liopoil
mail-mi (1): yuma
chairs (3): Robz888, spiritbears, nkirbit

Not voting: Voltaire, mcmcsalot, chairs, mail-mi

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

[Robz888]

Is no one else on chairs? Do people disagree with me? He made a really scummy move. Remember that this is his first game, where if he is scum, he is likely to make accidental scum moves.

Nope, don't really think that was too scummy of a move. you say his mcmc vote was "wagoning" and "dangerous". I assume you mean in regard to him putting mcmc at L-1. I think it reasonable that he didn't realize he was putting him at L-1, or that he didn't think that was too big of a deal. slightly scummy at best.

Why are you covering for him?

[spiritbears]

I your a little confused lio. (And nk to  A lesser extent)
My problem with chairs is not that I think it's actually working toward no-lynch,
But that he has brought it up....again.
Its like he wanted to emphasize it so we can all say...gee that's not that scummy after all.
iYuma referred to it as filling his post just to fill it...appear he was contributing
And lio is still high on my scum reads...recliner is just higher
Mc--typical town mc. If he's scum, hrs doing s very good job

[Robz888]

I your a little confused lio. (And nk to  A lesser extent)
My problem with chairs is not that I think it's actually working toward no-lynch,
But that he has brought it up....again.
Its like he wanted to emphasize it so we can all say...gee that's not that scummy after all.
iYuma referred to it as filling his post just to fill it...appear he was contributing
And lio is still high on my scum reads...recliner is just higher
Mc--typical town mc. If he's scum, hrs doing s very good job

I don't get this (bold added for emphasis). He is usually scum and he usually does a very good job at being scum.

[mcmcsalot]

tempted to liopoil, only because he is almost always right on my alignment and he isn't here.

[spiritbears]

I your a little confused lio. (And nk to  A lesser extent)
My problem with chairs is not that I think it's actually working toward no-lynch,
But that he has brought it up....again.
Its like he wanted to emphasize it so we can all say...gee that's not that scummy after all.
iYuma referred to it as filling his post just to fill it...appear he was contributing
And lio is still high on my scum reads...recliner is just higher
Mc--typical town mc. If he's scum, hrs doing s very good job

I don't get this (bold added for emphasis). He is usually scum and he usually does a very good job at being scum.

Since when is he "usually" scum? I've seem him play both several times, and of course he's good at scum  too.  I wasn't saying he wouldn't be.  I merely said if he's scum he's doing a very good job at faking it.
Now. On to your (over)reaction to my little observation. Normally scum would try and push something like that...
But here it's robzzz the king of pushing overreactions....
Likely townrobz trying to get an overreaction.

[chairs]

Vote: Robz888

[chairs]

Err, actually, can I get some clarification on when voting period is over?  I thought today was it, but I went back to be sure and it says Monday July 3rd... But that's a Wednesday.

[liopoil]

chairs, why did you vote for robz?

SB, I must have missed where he said that, can you show it to me?

Robz, I'm not covering for him, I just don't find that particular comment of his particularly incriminating. All he did was put mcmc at L-1.

[chairs]

chairs, why did you vote for robz?

SB, I must have missed where he said that, can you show it to me?

Robz, I'm not covering for him, I just don't find that particular comment of his particularly incriminating. All he did was put mcmc at L-1.

This time I'll pull in quotes, though if we clarify that we still have a week the argument could be made for a change of mind.

Is no one else on chairs? Do people disagree with me? He made a really scummy move. Remember that this is his first game, where if he is scum, he is likely to make accidental scum moves.

Nope, don't really think that was too scummy of a move. you say his mcmc vote was "wagoning" and "dangerous". I assume you mean in regard to him putting mcmc at L-1. I think it reasonable that he didn't realize he was putting him at L-1, or that he didn't think that was too big of a deal. slightly scummy at best.

Why are you covering for him?

I'd add more but the topic summary doesn't let me go back further (I can try to find additional posts and add them in a fresh post).  He seems to be beating the chairs drum the most, and I figure either he legitimately thinks I'm scum or he's pushing for a mislynch (which would suggest scum).  I suppose the third possibility is that he's looking for reactions from the proverbial peanut gallery, in which case he got one, at least from me.  I hope it helps.  I also thought we were at ~24 hours to D1 end and as I"m at work there's a real possibility I wouldn't necessarily get the opportunity to post for the rest of the day (I should really be working instead of typing, etc etc) so I wanted to ensure I'd cast a lot towards someone I thought at least seemed scummy.

[chairs]

Well, whining about it doesn't help I guess.

The post right before the one I'm quoting here is whining about it a bit, then he posts this, why bother to grump grump nevermind in two posts?  There was an argument about whether or not it was an overreaction on purpose (because of potential re-scumming) post-reset, and it's continued to weigh on my mind that the lady doth protest too much.

[spiritbears]

Yeah, geez, unvote for now.

Chairs throwing out the fact that he has scumreads on half the other players makes his scumreads kind of meaningless at this point.

Why exactly do you find mcmc scummy, chairs?  And lio, and SB?  You didn't really provide reasons for any of your reads.

I'm going to try to make sure I don't miss any quotes this time, and I'll try to detail my suspicions.

First off: mcmcsalot seems to be making a VT claim in what I had quoted; as there's no reason to make a VT claim ever, it seems reasonable to believe that he is more likely than not scum.  As this is Day 1, my normal strategy (with folks that I play with IRL) is to head towards a no-lynch, but as I've been advised this is a terrible idea in practice by folks who have played this game more often than myself, I felt that as the one who the argument could be made most strongly for, he'd have my vote.  That being said, forum Mafia's a bit of a different beast than I'm used to (we're making decisions in days, rather than minutes) so I can see the justification/argument made for an Unvote until we can attempt to gather more evidence.

Second: spiritbears.  His liopoil voting seems... odd.. and his posting in general somewhat erratic (which in my IRL games has usually suggested someone trying to sound random enough that any potential scumpost comes off as just random).  He's also potentially covering for mc's VT claim - see:

I think some people here are trying extra hard to read scum into mc's post. If you think that was a Vt claim, you are sadly mistaken imo.  And why the hell would his first post be exactly like his first post before the reset?!?!  No one should b making the same post over again....that would just be scummy

.  That being said, the arguments I have against spiritbears are softer ones than the argument that a soft VT claim implies scum, so I rated him lower than mc.

Third: liopoil.  It kind of feels like the below quote is to the detriment of our game, if RVS was useful in the first iteration, why wouldn't it be useful in the fresh game?  We've lost effectively all knowledge gained from the prior game other than perhaps something to compare posters to, so I don't understand why a little RVS wouldn't simply garner us additional information.  That said, this is (in my mind) still a very weak argument, but made him less neutral in my head compared to those who I didn't list.

I feel like the incident was handled well. You can't just kick out Yuma for accidentally seeing whatever he saw. It sucks for Spiritbears and Robz888 because they lost a chance to be scum (if they're town this time), and any PRs too. But reset was really the only option I can think of besides Yuma being replaced. And how would shraeye explain the need for Yuma to be replaced? He couldn't say that he found out someone's alignment, because that means that he was town (scum already know everyone's alignment).

anyway, it's good to be back, that lull was boooooring!

I'm fine with skipping RVS, we did that last time, no need to do it again.

Here ya go lio. Not sure how you missed this when we have been commenting on it...
Does that clear up my position at all?

[spiritbears]

Sorry misplaced my quote. But my comment at end of that.  Chairs above...

[Robz888]

OMGUS.

[Robz888]

Pretty classic. Pretty scummy.

[spiritbears]

Pretty classic. Pretty scummy.

I ageee it looks scummy. But I wonder if even a newbie would be this obvious.  I mean if were anyone else we would say...look how purposefully scummy this guy is....must be a front.
But the evidence is stacking up...

[Voltaire]

Someone tell me why I should believe the wagon on chairs. I see his actions as the scummy play of newbie town. I'm open to voting for him, but I don't have nearly enough reason to do so right now.

I very much like what lio's doing in 289. It's related to trying to slow down the chairs wagon, which I support for now (see above), but

If a player does thing you deem townie no matter what their alignment, then there's something wrong with what you deem townie. If a player does the same thing every game then them doing the same thing again has got to be a null read.

is also very nice. Thought-out posts, etc. etc. Townread on lio for now (even though I disagree with his mcmc vote)

And actually I'm going to vote: yuma (gentle wagon pusher). Voting for him again like last time but for realz this time!

[yuma]

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

So you are suspicious of me for doing the exact same thing you are doing here? Being suspicious and not voting? Except for one crucial detail... I am voting. I am voting for mail-mi. Who I think is more likely to be scummy at this juncture than Robz--I didn't push for his wagon at all, I asked what people thought about his reaction to the game starting--and just as scummy as chairs, except that I have had experience with town and scum mail-mi and know him a bit better and don't know chairs at all...

Whereas you aren't voting for anyone... so who is scummy for this alleged scummy behavior? You or me? In this context I would in fact say it is you... but I don't think it is scummy behavior. I think it is normal town behavior to probe and try and create conversation... so no FOS but shame: voltaire for trying to inhibit scum hunting.

PPE: although now I see that you have voted... but my point still stands above.

[yuma]

OK, caught up. I am going away from my computer in a bit, so if anyone has questions about this post, please know I won't be able to answer them for several hours.

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

I am also wary of yuma, mostly because he seemed to agree about chairs being scummy, but then voting mail-mi and found mail-mi scummier, which I strongly disagree with. But I mean the only scenario where this makes any sense would be yuma/chairs scumteam, so okay, that's not great evidence. I still like my case on chairs an awful lot though, and I don't think what mail-mi said was that scummy.

I do find chairs scummy, but on an equal plain with mail-mi. And so I am voting for mail-mi for two reasons. First I know mail-mi and am more confident I can spot scum in him than in chairs who I don't know. Second, I have often been against lynching a new player day1 unless their is an obvious reason or there isn't anyone else compelling to vote for. That has always been how I have played... and I think it is fair. Right now chairs isn't anymore obviously scum to me than mail-mi and I won't be voting for him unless it becomes extremely obvious that he is mafia or that there isn't anyone else that we can lynch. I remember you having this same sort of thought process in earlier games. Are you so confident that chairs is mafia that you are abandoning it? Or do you just not play that way anymore (not a judgement, if people don't want to play that way, it is OK, but it is my preferred style of playing)

[Voltaire]

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

So you are suspicious of me for doing the exact same thing you are doing here? Being suspicious and not voting? Except for one crucial detail... I am voting. I am voting for mail-mi. Who I think is more likely to be scummy at this juncture than Robz--I didn't push for his wagon at all, I asked what people thought about his reaction to the game starting--and just as scummy as chairs, except that I have had experience with town and scum mail-mi and know him a bit better and don't know chairs at all...

Whereas you aren't voting for anyone... so who is scummy for this alleged scummy behavior? You or me? In this context I would in fact say it is you... but I don't think it is scummy behavior. I think it is normal town behavior to probe and try and create conversation... so no FOS but shame: voltaire for trying to inhibit scum hunting.

PPE: although now I see that you have voted... but my point still stands above.

Yes. I am actually in agreement with you about this. But I also know that scumYuma is seven kinds of clever and would use this tactic to get something started as scum. It's my usual voting strategy (vote after moving through several levels of subtle) and I'm standing by it (for now). I do like what you're doing - your play has been helpful - but hasn't made you town in my eyes (which is probably a mess based on saying I like lio's statement [but this game is a mess, woo!]).

Also - shame, really?

I'll go re-read mail-mi stuff as he's one of the players I currently can't differentiate from anyone else. Who else am I missing in my head...sb and nkirbit.

[yuma]

Pretty classic. Pretty scummy.

I tend to think OMGUS to be more a universal reaction rather than a scum play. Or rather, scum do it just as often as town and for me it is rarely indicative of alignment. Because the natural reaction to someone voting for you is to vote for them back, as either town or mafia. Especially as a new player who might not realize the problem that comes with it.

You really seem to be forcing this idea of a chair lynch through... for someone who is supposed to be really unsure of himself in terms of scum hunting... (not making fun, just repeating what you yourself have said in previous games....) you are being extremely confident on day1 and on a player who you have never played with before.

[liopoil]

Our deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Monday, July 3rd I believe.

I'm not liking chairs vote on Robz888, it does seem like OMGUS. that doesn't make him scum though. I see what you're talking about SB. So he mentions it again. Why would he want to emphasize it? It seems like he's more saying "I'm a bit disoriented, because this forum mafia thing is weird, I dunno what to do because we aren't no lynching". I don't think he is filling up his paragraph to make it look like he's saying more than he is. chairs has contributed a fair enough amount, he doesn't need to do that. The only claim that he's scummy that I could see making on that is that maybe he's trying to say "Sorry guys, I'm new to this and have no clue what to do, so if I'm do something stupid don't assume I'm scum," but really, I just think he really is just getting used to the way it works around here.

It seems I do not have any support on mcmc. I'm willing to let that go for now, no point pushing something that won't happen. I will Vote: Mail-mi instead. like other's have mentioned, this post:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

Is super-convenient for scum. In this post, he says very little, not drawing attention to himself (well, that didn't work out), he takes the stance of defending someone which will look good once he flips town (if he's town), and at the same time, fans the flames for the wagon to continue. He has said that this was just his thought process, however, at the end of this, he does not come to a conclusion. As of this post, he can go either way on mcmc without being accused of flipping. In other words, he's hedging.

PPE: 4

[yuma]

Also - shame, really?

Couldn't think of anything else to call it on the fly. Because it wasn't a FOS or a vote... it was a grrrr! So I don't actually want you to feel shame... but I want you to know that I think that sort of train of thought inhibits town's ability to scum hunt... because ultimately I am affected by how town views me. I am. I am going to remember your post and remember what you said and it will affect how I scum hunt. It is unfortunate. I wish I was a person who didn't care what other people think, but I am. Because I want to stay alive (not get mislynch) and I want to lynch mafia (and to do so I have to convince people like you, but if you think I am mafia... I am not going to be able to convince you)... so your post makes it somewhat harder for me to scum hunt because I am going to be thinking... is voltaire and others going to find this scummy that I am pointing out something suspicious, but not voting? And that stunts me somewhat. You see....? Grrrrr.....

[Voltaire]

Also - shame, really?

Couldn't think of anything else to call it on the fly. Because it wasn't a FOS or a vote... it was a grrrr! So I don't actually want you to feel shame... but I want you to know that I think that sort of train of thought inhibits town's ability to scum hunt... because ultimately I am affected by how town views me. I am. I am going to remember your post and remember what you said and it will affect how I scum hunt. It is unfortunate. I wish I was a person who didn't care what other people think, but I am. Because I want to stay alive (not get mislynch) and I want to lynch mafia (and to do so I have to convince people like you, but if you think I am mafia... I am not going to be able to convince you)... so your post makes it somewhat harder for me to scum hunt because I am going to be thinking... is voltaire and others going to find this scummy that I am pointing out something suspicious, but not voting? And that stunts me somewhat. You see....? Grrrrr.....

Of course. I can totally support Grrrr:Voltaire (from your point of view).

Lio has once again summarized why I don't like the chairs wagon. And yuma why I don't like Robz's push for the chairs wagon. It doesn't give me a scum read on Robz, it just gives me a Grrrr:Robz.

At the moment I'm leaning town on mcmc, chairs, lio, and Robz. Leaning scum on yuma. More confident on the town reads than the scum read.

Now I need to stop keeping current on the thread and re-read like I said, because I currently have null reads on mail-mi, sb, and nkirbit because I can't remember them much.

[chairs]

Our deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Monday, July 3rd I believe.

I'm not liking chairs vote on Robz888, it does seem like OMGUS. that doesn't make him scum though. I see what you're talking about SB. So he mentions it again. Why would he want to emphasize it? It seems like he's more saying "I'm a bit disoriented, because this forum mafia thing is weird, I dunno what to do because we aren't no lynching". I don't think he is filling up his paragraph to make it look like he's saying more than he is. chairs has contributed a fair enough amount, he doesn't need to do that. The only claim that he's scummy that I could see making on that is that maybe he's trying to say "Sorry guys, I'm new to this and have no clue what to do, so if I'm do something stupid don't assume I'm scum," but really, I just think he really is just getting used to the way it works around here.

It seems I do not have any support on mcmc. I'm willing to let that go for now, no point pushing something that won't happen. I will Vote: Mail-mi instead. like other's have mentioned, this post:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

Is super-convenient for scum. In this post, he says very little, not drawing attention to himself (well, that didn't work out), he takes the stance of defending someone which will look good once he flips town (if he's town), and at the same time, fans the flames for the wagon to continue. He has said that this was just his thought process, however, at the end of this, he does not come to a conclusion. As of this post, he can go either way on mcmc without being accused of flipping. In other words, he's hedging.

PPE: 4

My confusion here is that July 3rd isn't a Monday, unless my calendar is wrong.

[shraeye]

Note the date change

Vote Count 1.5

mail-mi (2): yuma, liopoil
chairs (3): Robz888, spiritbears, nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
yuma (1): Voltaire

Not voting: mcmcsalot, mail-mi

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

[mail-mi]

Ready, set, reactions!

Chairs wagon: meh. He doesn't strike me as super scummy. Also I agree with yumas stance.

My wagon: yep I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that.

Reads:

Right now, chairs is on the more scummy side and mcmc on the townier side, but only barely. don't know about Robz, he's always changing everything up.

[spiritbears]

unvote
The more I think about it
The less likely  I think it is that a
First game chair would get a scum role

[nkirbit]

unvote
The more I think about it
The less likely  I think it is that a
First game chair would get a scum role

This is a bad reason.  He's just as likely to be scum or town as anyone else.  This isn't mean girls.

[mail-mi]

Noir it doesn't have as much of a presence as I'm used to him having. I think I'll go reread him.

[mail-mi]

Noir it = nkirbit

[yuma]

unvote
The more I think about it
The less likely  I think it is that a
First game chair would get a scum role

Yes. A good mod--and I think shraeye is a good mod--should be using a random number generator to assign alignment and roles, so their isn't anyone's bias to skew the results.

[mail-mi]

From my quick reread I have a null to scummyish read on nkirbit. And the scummyish part of it is just because he hasn't had as much of a presence here than usual.

[Robz888]

Pretty classic. Pretty scummy.

I tend to think OMGUS to be more a universal reaction rather than a scum play. Or rather, scum do it just as often as town and for me it is rarely indicative of alignment. Because the natural reaction to someone voting for you is to vote for them back, as either town or mafia. Especially as a new player who might not realize the problem that comes with it.

You really seem to be forcing this idea of a chair lynch through... for someone who is supposed to be really unsure of himself in terms of scum hunting... (not making fun, just repeating what you yourself have said in previous games....) you are being extremely confident on day1 and on a player who you have never played with before.

Okay, who OMGUses? I agree that veteran scum does not typically OMGUS, or does not OMGUS more than veteran town, at least. But for a newbie? Yeah, I think newbie scum would OMGUS. I know I have done it. I can think of others doing it.

The second part of your argument... whatever, I think I am on to something.

[Robz888]

unvote
The more I think about it
The less likely  I think it is that a
First game chair would get a scum role

This reasoning is false and invalid.

[spiritbears]

unvote
The more I think about it
The less likely  I think it is that a
First game chair would get a scum role

This reasoning is false and invalid.

No it's not.  Name one person on this forum that ever got a scum role first game....even if you can actually make one, it's such a high improbability that it is practically true.... 
That you would call it false. Suggests you are pushing that lynch waaaaaay too hard

[liopoil]

no, I'm sure each player in this game had an equal chance of being scum. it was determined randomly!

Besides, I was scum in the first game that I actually finished, and I think mcmc was scum in his first game.

[yuma]

unvote
The more I think about it
The less likely  I think it is that a
First game chair would get a scum role

This reasoning is false and invalid.

No it's not.  Name one person on this forum that ever got a scum role first game....even if you can actually make one, it's such a high improbability that it is practically true.... 
That you would call it false. Suggests you are pushing that lynch waaaaaay too hard

I did! Xeiron did... remember him in the "game which shall not be named" and I Qvist in MXV. It happens... why because probability happens.

But you are missing the point here.

If you are saying chairs only had a 2/9 chance of being scum. That is true. But it is true of everyone in this game. Thus we take that information and know that everyone, all things being equal, is less likely to be mafia than town. Everyone has a 7/9 chance of being town. That is pretty good odds!

So what we have to do is thus: scum hunt and figure out who is being the most scummy. Robz is saying it is chairs, I am saying it is mail-mi. Scum hunting...

And like I said above... for what you said to be true, that would require shraeye to deliberately alter the alignment and roles in such a way that they are no longer random. I don't think he did that and if he did I would be be pretty upset. Opposed to raerae's game where it was said from the outset that other players would be manipulating who was scum... but that game is the exception.

[Voltaire]

Okay, who OMGUses? I agree that veteran scum does not typically OMGUS, or does not OMGUS more than veteran town, at least. But for a newbie? Yeah, I think newbie scum would OMGUS. I know I have done it. I can think of others doing it.

New players do it. Pretty sure I did it when I was new. I am not liking your case at all on chairs. It reads like your case on me in ZM1 to me.

On a re-read nkirbit truly hasn't contributed that much. Staying in the shadows. Nkirbit, I'd like more of your thoughts - and to re-think your vote on chairs. (Everyone, re-think your vote on chairs). Most of the reasons are just terrible.

Sb has been...strange. Lots of posts like his recent one about why he might clear chairs. It's weird play regardless of alignment. Is this normal for sb? For now, scumread on sb.

And mail-mi? Also hated the wagon on mail-mi.

So unless the team is yuma/sb, scum has appeared town to me at this point.

PPE: At this rate, I'm going to clear most people as town due to bad play! Mafia would never play this bad.

[spiritbears]

First game you finished is not the same thing
Also, I'm sure a good mod would overrule a newb scum roll
And being introduced to scum roll in a newbie game is also different

[Voltaire]

I am saying it is mail-mi. Scum hunting...

Is your case just that one hedging quote, or is there more?

[spiritbears]

About fn time Yuma had a scum read on me!!!
Was begining to think the world was offkilter

[yuma]

Pretty classic. Pretty scummy.

I tend to think OMGUS to be more a universal reaction rather than a scum play. Or rather, scum do it just as often as town and for me it is rarely indicative of alignment. Because the natural reaction to someone voting for you is to vote for them back, as either town or mafia. Especially as a new player who might not realize the problem that comes with it.

You really seem to be forcing this idea of a chair lynch through... for someone who is supposed to be really unsure of himself in terms of scum hunting... (not making fun, just repeating what you yourself have said in previous games....) you are being extremely confident on day1 and on a player who you have never played with before.

Okay, who OMGUses? I agree that veteran scum does not typically OMGUS, or does not OMGUS more than veteran town, at least. But for a newbie? Yeah, I think newbie scum would OMGUS. I know I have done it. I can think of others doing it.

The second part of your argument... whatever, I think I am on to something.

Right! But who else can do it? Newbie town. (I for one don't have a lot of experience with being a newbie town as the first 3/4 games I was in I was mafia... and had already had quite a bit of experience before I was ever a townie)

So the sword swings both ways... Remember insomniac... king of the town OMGUS?

The second part... that is all I wanted to know. If you really think you are onto something, go for it and I hope that you are right (if you are town) and that you will ultimately convince me. But right now I am not convinced.

[liopoil]

no way would shraeye reroll if a newbie rolled scum. No way.

[spiritbears]

no way would shraeye reroll if a newbie rolled scum. No way.

You don't know that.
And who cares anyway. 
Chairs is not going to be lynched today no matter how scummy he acts.  That much is clear

[Voltaire]

First game you finished is not the same thing
Also, I'm sure a good mod would overrule a newb scum roll
And being introduced to scum roll in a newbie game is also different

A bad mod would do that. In a normal game, at least. I know Robz made me a scum PR in XI (Courtyard Masquerade) because I'd done well as town in my first 2 games and wanted to see how I'd do as scum. (And what it turns out I do is run away after getting overwhelmed by the size of the game).

[Robz888]

First game you finished is not the same thing
Also, I'm sure a good mod would overrule a newb scum roll
And being introduced to scum roll in a newbie game is also different

A good mod would do no such thing. SB, you are just wrong here.

[yuma]

Also, I'm sure a good mod would overrule a newb scum roll

I strongly disagree. It is the basic foundation of this game... that roles and alignments are determined randomly. If you undermine that principle then the game collapses. If any mod has been doing this, they are modding incorrectly (unless it is a RMM game or a BM game or it is made explicitly clear in the opening post). No argument about this. This is how the game is played.

And you basing your idea about chairs off this is taking a huge thing for granted... I am sorry spiritbears, but right now you are being unnecessarily stubborn. I am absolutely sure about this, that your logic about chairs at the moment is incorrect and I bet that the other 7 players here agree with me. I dont' have a scum read on you because of it, but just think that you are looking at this situation incorrectly.

I'll go back and see if I can find other examples of people being mafia on their first game...

The first ~5 games I won't count because a many players were new at that point and not counting newbie games... nor blitz or RMM or BM...

1. Glooble in MVI
2 & 3. YoungNick and Pingpongsam in MVII
4. sparky in MIX
5 & 6 Watno and TheMunch in MXI
7. Qvist in MXV
8. Lekkit in MXVII
9. Winterspartan in MXXIV

So quite a few examples.

[yuma]

but ultimately it doesn't matter... what matters is that everyone can be just as likely to be scum, so I suggest we return to a regularly scheduled scum hunting...

mail-mi anyone?

[liopoil]

no way would shraeye reroll if a newbie rolled scum. No way.

You don't know that.
And who cares anyway. 
Chairs is not going to be lynched today no matter how scummy he acts.  That much is clear

I'll vote for chairs if I think he's scum, for sure. He could get lynched.

I'll ask shraeye, I think he might answer, and I'm pretty sure of what answer he will give:

Shraeye, would you, under any circumstances, re-roll the setup based on something like giving a newbie a good introduction to the game.

[Robz888]

but ultimately it doesn't matter... what matters is that everyone can be just as likely to be scum, so I suggest we return to a regularly scheduled scum hunting...

mail-mi anyone?

Every day is Techno Free Tuesday! Not really, but that's what I feeling like. It never seems like he's around. I know that's not actually fair to him. I never notice him, and I don't know why, and he usually skates past me as scum. What has he said so far?

[chairs]

After reading the latest posts..



I'm glad I decided to join the forum and play, this is the kind of mind game type stuff I usually only get out of internet spaceship politics.

[Voltaire]

Chairs is not going to be lynched today no matter how scummy he acts.  That much is clear

And (for now) I'm quite happy about that.

Likely Town:
mcmc

Maybe Town:
liopoil
chairs
mail-mi

Null:
nkirbit
sb
Robz

Maybe Scum:
yuma

Ugh. Too much null.

[Voltaire]

First game you finished is not the same thing
Also, I'm sure a good mod would overrule a newb scum roll
And being introduced to scum roll in a newbie game is also different

A bad mod would do that. In a normal game, at least. I know Robz made me a scum PR in XI (Courtyard Masquerade) because I'd done well as town in my first 2 games and wanted to see how I'd do as scum. (And what it turns out I do is run away after getting overwhelmed by the size of the game).

TO BE CLEAR Robz made it incredibly clear from the start he might do this sort of thing. Don't want to imply I'm calling him a bad mod!

[yuma]

last post about this. This is from the mafiawiki that shraeye lists in his opening post:

How should I decide who should get what roles in the Mafia game I am running?
The most common and recommended way is randomly. This is the fairest way to assign roles.
You can use the Sequence Generator at random.org.
Assign each role a number.
Run the generator.
Match the role number to your player list.

Common and recommended... for a newbie game I think common and recommended is the way it went.

[Voltaire]

but ultimately it doesn't matter... what matters is that everyone can be just as likely to be scum, so I suggest we return to a regularly scheduled scum hunting...

mail-mi anyone?

Convince me. Is the case more than the "wagon is too quick" post?

[yuma]

but ultimately it doesn't matter... what matters is that everyone can be just as likely to be scum, so I suggest we return to a regularly scheduled scum hunting...

mail-mi anyone?

Every day is Techno Free Tuesday! Not really, but that's what I feeling like. It never seems like he's around. I know that's not actually fair to him. I never notice him, and I don't know why, and he usually skates past me as scum. What has he said so far?

well there was the one post in particular I pointed out...

and then there is this:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

which you said you disagreed with. Since then:

It was just a stream of thought. First thought: that wagon formed really quickly, I don't think mcmc is scum. Second thought: but that was a suspicious post. Hm.

Right now I have a townish read on mcmc because scum mcmc is calm cool and collecting. Town mcmc is more clumsy.

uses someone else's excuse for his post... nice and convienent. Has a weird read about mcmc, I don't remember mcmc being clumsy in this game...

Ready, set, reactions!

Chairs wagon: meh. He doesn't strike me as super scummy. Also I agree with yumas stance.

My wagon: yep I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that.

Reads:

Right now, chairs is on the more scummy side and mcmc on the townier side, but only barely. don't know about Robz, he's always changing everything up.

For a reactions post... there is like nothing here. No commentary other than himself and chairs when there was other stuff going on.

The "yep, I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that"... well to me it looks like the "if I agree it is scummy maybe they will see that I have nothing to hide and stop looking at me" tactic.

And then super weak reads... everyone is null! except two really weak reads.

[yuma]

but ultimately it doesn't matter... what matters is that everyone can be just as likely to be scum, so I suggest we return to a regularly scheduled scum hunting...

mail-mi anyone?

Convince me. Is the case more than the "wagon is too quick" post?

that is the basis. Since then he has done stuff that has been kinda in the middle, so nothing to make me really push the lynch harder, and nothing to make me think he is townie. See above post.

[Robz888]

Okay I guess that's kind of scummy.

[spiritbears]

no way would shraeye reroll if a newbie rolled scum. No way.

You don't know that.
And who cares anyway. 
Chairs is not going to be lynched today no matter how scummy he acts.  That much is clear

I'll vote for chairs if I think he's scum, for sure. He could get lynched.

I'll ask shraeye, I think he might answer, and I'm pretty sure of what answer he will give:

Shraeye, would you, under any circumstances, re-roll the setup based on something like giving a newbie a good introduction to the game.

This kindof ruins the whole point of speculation.  Which was just for speculating.

[mail-mi]

but ultimately it doesn't matter... what matters is that everyone can be just as likely to be scum, so I suggest we return to a regularly scheduled scum hunting...

mail-mi anyone?

Every day is Techno Free Tuesday! Not really, but that's what I feeling like. It never seems like he's around. I know that's not actually fair to him. I never notice him, and I don't know why, and he usually skates past me as scum. What has he said so far?

well there was the one post in particular I pointed out...

and then there is this:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

which you said you disagreed with. Since then:

It was just a stream of thought. First thought: that wagon formed really quickly, I don't think mcmc is scum. Second thought: but that was a suspicious post. Hm.

Right now I have a townish read on mcmc because scum mcmc is calm cool and collecting. Town mcmc is more clumsy.

uses someone else's excuse for his post... nice and convienent. Has a weird read about mcmc, I don't remember mcmc being clumsy in this game...

Not clumsy, just more clumsy.

Ready, set, reactions!

Chairs wagon: meh. He doesn't strike me as super scummy. Also I agree with yumas stance.

My wagon: yep I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that.

Reads:

Right now, chairs is on the more scummy side and mcmc on the townier side, but only barely. don't know about Robz, he's always changing everything up.

For a reactions post... there is like nothing here. No commentary other than himself and chairs when there was other stuff going on.

The "yep, I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that"... well to me it looks like the "if I agree it is scummy maybe they will see that I have nothing to hide and stop looking at me" tactic.

And then super weak reads... everyone is null! except two really weak reads.

I was reacting to wagons.

And some more reads: you(ma) (for actually scum hunting, even though its on me) and volt (mostly a gut feel) are looking towny, SB's " mod eouldnt make newbie scum" is horribly horribly wrong. I think I'll Vote: nkirbit because of reasons stated before.

[spiritbears]

but ultimately it doesn't matter... what matters is that everyone can be just as likely to be scum, so I suggest we return to a regularly scheduled scum hunting...

mail-mi anyone?

Every day is Techno Free Tuesday! Not really, but that's what I feeling like. It never seems like he's around. I know that's not actually fair to him. I never notice him, and I don't know why, and he usually skates past me as scum. What has he said so far?

well there was the one post in particular I pointed out...

and then there is this:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

which you said you disagreed with. Since then:

It was just a stream of thought. First thought: that wagon formed really quickly, I don't think mcmc is scum. Second thought: but that was a suspicious post. Hm.

Right now I have a townish read on mcmc because scum mcmc is calm cool and collecting. Town mcmc is more clumsy.

uses someone else's excuse for his post... nice and convienent. Has a weird read about mcmc, I don't remember mcmc being clumsy in this game...

Ready, set, reactions!

Chairs wagon: meh. He doesn't strike me as super scummy. Also I agree with yumas stance.

My wagon: yep I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that.

Reads:

Right now, chairs is on the more scummy side and mcmc on the townier side, but only barely. don't know about Robz, he's always changing everything up.

For a reactions post... there is like nothing here. No commentary other than himself and chairs when there was other stuff going on.

The "yep, I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that"... well to me it looks like the "if I agree it is scummy maybe they will see that I have nothing to hide and stop looking at me" tactic.

And then super weak reads... everyone is null! except two really weak reads.

This is almost entirely a copy of your case against him in mean girls.  You were wrong then as scum
You are wrong now too I think
vote yuma

[yuma]

which case in mean girls? At the end? I don't know... And I highly doubt it as this is a day1 case and is completely different from anything I would put together either as mafia or town on a later day (day4 or day5).

If you are referring to a day1 case on mail-mi in mean girls... I never put one together. I never voted for mail-mi day1.

[spiritbears]

Calling his reaction post weak and his reads mostly null...it's exactly what you pushed against him at the end....as scum

[spiritbears]

And I'm still kicking myself for buying it....

[yuma]

Calling his reaction post weak and his reads mostly null...it's exactly what you pushed against him at the end....as scum

well that is because it is... you guessed it!!! scummy!

It was an easy case to push then because it was scummy and you and others bought it. However, this game I am scum hunting. And he is playing scummy again.

The reason I think I am successful as mafia is because I create good cases that have merit as mafia and are very similar to my cases as town. In this game I am town and am scum hunting and again building, what I hope is, a good case.

So don't put down today's case just because yesterday's was created by scum. Take that into consideration when you view it, but don't just dismiss it because I was mafia last game.

[Voltaire]

Has a weird read about mcmc, I don't remember mcmc being clumsy in this game...

Actually I agree that mcmc has been clumsy, he sorta-claimed VT, then clarified he was claiming not-JK.

Though I do agree mail-mi has been meh overall. He's another wagon I don't like at this point.

[Voltaire]

In this game I am town and am scum hunting and again building, what I hope is, a good case.

I view it as a very weak case, as weak as the wagon on chairs. Then there's also your philosophy on Robz, which I actually do sorta buy, yet I find you scummy for it. I'm complex, I guess.

I'm comfortable leaving my vote on you right now. Robz, are you willing to vote for someone other than chairs?

And nkirbit, contribute more!

[yuma]

In this game I am town and am scum hunting and again building, what I hope is, a good case.

I view it as a very weak case, as weak as the wagon on chairs. Then there's also your philosophy on Robz, which I actually do sorta buy, yet I find you scummy for it. I'm complex, I guess.

I'm comfortable leaving my vote on you right now. Robz, are you willing to vote for someone other than chairs?

And nkirbit, contribute more!

of course it is a weak case! it is day1, like 3 days into day1. I have only had 1 case ever that was super, super strong day1. If I have a case that strong, don't worry, I'll let you know! But just because it is a weak case doesn't mean I shouldn't push it. It is the opposite because with time as I push it, it will either get stronger and grow or get weaker and die...

I am not sure what you mean about my philosophy on robz?

[Voltaire]

I am not sure what you mean about my philosophy on robz?

Just your "methinks he doth protest too much" theory that perhaps he rolled scum again.

[Robz888]

I'm comfortable leaving my vote on you right now. Robz, are you willing to vote for someone other than chairs?

Well, certainly.

[Robz888]

no way would shraeye reroll if a newbie rolled scum. No way.

You don't know that.
And who cares anyway. 
Chairs is not going to be lynched today no matter how scummy he acts.  That much is clear

I'll vote for chairs if I think he's scum, for sure. He could get lynched.

I'll ask shraeye, I think he might answer, and I'm pretty sure of what answer he will give:

Shraeye, would you, under any circumstances, re-roll the setup based on something like giving a newbie a good introduction to the game.

This is unnecessary. The answer is NO. It would unbalance the game if one person just was automatically town because you can't make a newbie a scum. I mean honestly, it's absurd. So no.

[yuma]

I am not sure what you mean about my philosophy on robz?

Just your "methinks he doth protest too much" theory that perhaps he rolled scum again.

Oh... that. Ok... although I am sure I never used the phrasing "doth protest too much." I am not really sure why you think it makes me scummy though. Like is said when I posted about it:

1. I get robz's frustration and I won't criticize it because I know how much he likes being mafia. However... I do wonder if it is possible that he is "playing it up" a bit. That is.... I wonder if he is mafia again and is faking the frustration and anger of no longer being mafia... Obviously not anything concrete because we don't know his current alignment, but his reaction to all of this does make me wonder...

I am not sure that it means anything, but felt that it was a valid concern and worth discussing... Again, you are finding me suspicious for bringing things up and probing and trying to get answers. Yes, scum!yuma does those things as well... but really it just feels like you are in "don't want to get tricked by scum!yuma mode" which is both a disservice to me as town and a disservice to the rest of the town if you are in fact town.

[spiritbears]

Calling his reaction post weak and his reads mostly null...it's exactly what you pushed against him at the end....as scum

well that is because it is... you guessed it!!! scummy!

It was an easy case to push then because it was scummy and you and others bought it. However, this game I am scum hunting. And he is playing scummy again.

The reason I think I am successful as mafia is because I create good cases that have merit as mafia and are very similar to my cases as town. In this game I am town and am scum hunting and again building, what I hope is, a good case.

So don't put down today's case just because yesterday's was created by scum. Take that into consideration when you view it, but don't just dismiss it because I was mafia last game.

I'm saying your case was bad then, your case is bad now....you either 1) don't read mai too well, or 2) are scum pushing a weak case or 3) are town pushing a weak bad case for some other reason
I'm going with 2 for now

[yuma]

Calling his reaction post weak and his reads mostly null...it's exactly what you pushed against him at the end....as scum

well that is because it is... you guessed it!!! scummy!

It was an easy case to push then because it was scummy and you and others bought it. However, this game I am scum hunting. And he is playing scummy again.

The reason I think I am successful as mafia is because I create good cases that have merit as mafia and are very similar to my cases as town. In this game I am town and am scum hunting and again building, what I hope is, a good case.

So don't put down today's case just because yesterday's was created by scum. Take that into consideration when you view it, but don't just dismiss it because I was mafia last game.

I'm saying your case was bad then, your case is bad now....you either 1) don't read mai too well, or 2) are scum pushing a weak case or 3) are town pushing a weak bad case for some other reason
I'm going with 2 for now

and what I am saying is that it wasn't bad then. It was a good case. It was good because it highlighted scummy play from mail-mi. It was wrong (obviously) but that doesn't make it a bad case.

What I am saying is that regardless of whether or not I am town or mafia I am going to build a good case, or at least try to. I might not be right as town... I certainly won't be right as mafia...

Both you and voltaire just seem to be stuck in "I won't let yuma trick me mode" which really makes me not want to scum hunt because anything I say will result in, "yuma is being tricky, stuff my fingers into my ears and vote for him!!!" It is your job to actually look at my play and my behavior and see if it is scummy and not just assume that I am scummy because I am good at being scum.

[Voltaire]

Oh... that. Ok... although I am sure I never used the phrasing "doth protest too much." I am not really sure why you think it makes me scummy though.

You didn't use that phrase, someone else did to refer to your case, so I was just using their title for it.

Again, you are finding me suspicious for bringing things up and probing and trying to get answers. Yes, scum!yuma does those things as well... but really it just feels like you are in "don't want to get tricked by scum!yuma mode" which is both a disservice to me as town and a disservice to the rest of the town if you are in fact town.

Are you "bringing things up and probing and trying to get answers" or are you just offering up subtle scummy wagons for the town to jump on? I lean toward the second. (Yes, you did state you think mcmc is town - that's your only town read that has stuck out to me). And as you admit, scumYuma would do the same thing.

I mean, I'm not tunneling this (it's just D1, as you say) but for now I'm standing by it. It's a disservice to the town if I don't follow this wherever it may lead (if anywhere) and you turn out to be scum! If you're town as you say, then you understand.

[spiritbears]

Calling his reaction post weak and his reads mostly null...it's exactly what you pushed against him at the end....as scum

well that is because it is... you guessed it!!! scummy!

It was an easy case to push then because it was scummy and you and others bought it. However, this game I am scum hunting. And he is playing scummy again.

The reason I think I am successful as mafia is because I create good cases that have merit as mafia and are very similar to my cases as town. In this game I am town and am scum hunting and again building, what I hope is, a good case.

So don't put down today's case just because yesterday's was created by scum. Take that into consideration when you view it, but don't just dismiss it because I was mafia last game.

I'm saying your case was bad then, your case is bad now....you either 1) don't read mai too well, or 2) are scum pushing a weak case or 3) are town pushing a weak bad case for some other reason
I'm going with 2 for now

and what I am saying is that it wasn't bad then. It was a good case. It was good because it highlighted scummy play from mail-mi. It was wrong (obviously) but that doesn't make it a bad case.

What I am saying is that regardless of whether or not I am town or mafia I am going to build a good case, or at least try to. I might not be right as town... I certainly won't be right as mafia...

Both you and voltaire just seem to be stuck in "I won't let yuma trick me mode" which really makes me not want to scum hunt because anything I say will result in, "yuma is being tricky, stuff my fingers into my ears and vote for him!!!" It is your job to actually look at my play and my behavior and see if it is scummy and not just assume that I am scummy because I am good at being scum.

That is such a cop-out. My reasons for voting for you have nothing to do with "Yuma being tricky". It's one thing to say you disagree with my case. It's a totally different thing to try and delegitimize it by by resorting to that kind of hyperbole.

[yuma]

sb: we are about to revert to an argument that will be pointless and distracting. So I am not going to continue in it. If you want to vote for me, go for it, I am just pointing out the flaws I see in your logic as to why I am scum. Take em or leave em

[spiritbears]

sb: we are about to revert to an argument that will be pointless and distracting. So I am not going to continue in it. If you want to vote for me, go for it, I am just pointing out the flaws I see in your logic as to why I am scum. Take em or leave em

Pointing out flaws is fine...claiming I'm only voting for you because you are so good st being scum is ...well not very nice

[Voltaire]

Both you and voltaire just seem to be stuck in "I won't let yuma trick me mode" which really makes me not want to scum hunt because anything I say will result in, "yuma is being tricky, stuff my fingers into my ears and vote for him!!!" It is your job to actually look at my play and my behavior and see if it is scummy and not just assume that I am scummy because I am good at being scum.

This is not what I am doing. I am looking critically at your cases and finding them to be weak/wrong. There's a decent number of them. If you're town, then we'll see what happens if a proper wagon gets going on you. How you react is basically how I would change my mind. Maybe someone does something else I find scummier and I switch over to them if I'm more certain. But I am most certainly not making the sort of gut-based "yuma is being tricky, stuff my fingers into my ears and vote for him!!!" case you claim, and that slanted summary isn't doing to any favors in my eyes.

[spiritbears]

Both you and voltaire just seem to be stuck in "I won't let yuma trick me mode" which really makes me not want to scum hunt because anything I say will result in, "yuma is being tricky, stuff my fingers into my ears and vote for him!!!" It is your job to actually look at my play and my behavior and see if it is scummy and not just assume that I am scummy because I am good at being scum.

This is not what I am doing. I am looking critically at your cases and finding them to be weak/wrong. There's a decent number of them. If you're town, then we'll see what happens if a proper wagon gets going on you. How you react is basically how I would change my mind. Maybe someone does something else I find scummier and I switch over to them if I'm more certain. But I am most certainly not making the sort of gut-based "yuma is being tricky, stuff my fingers into my ears and vote for him!!!" case you claim, and that slanted summary isn't doing to any favors in my eyes.

Exactly. Thank you volt.

[Voltaire]

and that slanted summary isn't doing to any favors in my eyes.

and that slanted summary isn't doing you any favors in my eyes.

[yuma]

to both of you then: maybe I am not understanding what you are saying then...

Voltaire seems to be saying:

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

pushing wagons...

But I also know that scumYuma is seven kinds of clever and would use this tactic to get something started as scum. It's my usual voting strategy (vote after moving through several levels of subtle) and I'm standing by it (for now). I do like what you're doing - your play has been helpful - but hasn't made you town in my eyes

doing what scum!yuma would do... "which has been helpful" but doesn't make me town. Yes, but it doesn't make me scum.

Are you "bringing things up and probing and trying to get answers" or are you just offering up subtle scummy wagons for the town to jump on? I lean toward the second. (Yes, you did state you think mcmc is town - that's your only town read that has stuck out to me). And as you admit, scumYuma would do the same thing.

why toward the second? what makes you think the second as opposed to the first? There must be something yes, but until you do, my automatic reaction is "tricky yuma syndrome" because it has happened repeatedly in the past.

spiritbears:

This is almost entirely a copy of your case against him in mean girls.  You were wrong then as scum
You are wrong now too I think
vote yuma

voting me for building a similar case as I did as scum. Maybe valid... but the point I am trying to make is that I play the same as town and mafia. So how do you separate the two? How is it that you think this is scum!yuma as opposed to town!yuma...?

I'm saying your case was bad then, your case is bad now....you either 1) don't read mai too well, or 2) are scum pushing a weak case or 3) are town pushing a weak bad case for some other reason
I'm going with 2 for now

you completely leave off the possibility of mail-mi being mafia... which is very possible because he has been scummy in this game. That doesn't make him auto-scum, but he has been. Robz and lio agree with me.


So while both are voting me for different reasons I see the underlying reasons as a distrust of me from the get-go. Not based off my actions in this game, but a distrust of my meta. Meta reasons are a way to vote, I think they are generally pretty lame... but this is going into a game thinking "I need to be wary of yuma" and then automatically viewing my posts and cases as either "bad" or "scummy" or both because of it. Sure, be wary of everyone. That is the point of this game, but I feel that I am being targeted based off my previous play. And look... I am not mad about it. That is what I get for having success, but it is frustrating because it ultimately means that my cases are not being listened to and my views are not going to be taken as strongly because of this. And as a town player where my main weapon is my voice and my vote, that impeads me and I think ultimately hurts town. So I am trying to show you that I think you are being distracted by my meta and allowing it to cloud your view of me.

maybe I am wrong... but that is where I am coming from.

[yuma]

Both you and voltaire just seem to be stuck in "I won't let yuma trick me mode" which really makes me not want to scum hunt because anything I say will result in, "yuma is being tricky, stuff my fingers into my ears and vote for him!!!" It is your job to actually look at my play and my behavior and see if it is scummy and not just assume that I am scummy because I am good at being scum.

This is not what I am doing. I am looking critically at your cases and finding them to be weak/wrong. There's a decent number of them. If you're town, then we'll see what happens if a proper wagon gets going on you. How you react is basically how I would change my mind. Maybe someone does something else I find scummier and I switch over to them if I'm more certain. But I am most certainly not making the sort of gut-based "yuma is being tricky, stuff my fingers into my ears and vote for him!!!" case you claim, and that slanted summary isn't doing to any favors in my eyes.

Exactly. Thank you volt.

if it isn't what you are doing... it is what it appears you are doing in my eyes and from my perspective.

[Robz888]

Yuma, I think I agree that you seem MORE contrarian so far than usual. Their suspicion of you doesn't surprise me at all.

I would have to be really overwhelmingly convinced of your guilt to risk losing town you on Day 1, though. Maybe that's not fair to other players, but well, I want to win.

[spiritbears]

I absolutely did not come into this game thinking "be wary of Yuma". I certainly have a high degree of respect for both your town and scum play. but I did not jump on your case early...I watched and waited patiently until I saw something stick out that really bothered me....it had nothing whatsoever to do with your meta...I hope you can appreciate that.

[Voltaire]

Yuma, thank you for taking the time to reply. I do understand why where you're coming from is frustrating. But I stand by my choices so far.

Are you "bringing things up and probing and trying to get answers" or are you just offering up subtle scummy wagons for the town to jump on? I lean toward the second. (Yes, you did state you think mcmc is town - that's your only town read that has stuck out to me). And as you admit, scumYuma would do the same thing.

why toward the second? what makes you think the second as opposed to the first? There must be something yes, but until you do, my automatic reaction is "tricky yuma syndrome" because it has happened repeatedly in the past.

Well, knowing that possibility about Robz, what do you think of him so far? Your opinions on chairs and mail-mi haven't changed lately, I assume (since nothing much new has come of those two lately).

Your attitude/tone is what has me leaning towards the second. I'm getting a "you [Voltaire/sb] can't do that" tone from your posts, and I don't see town advancing arguments that get boiled down that way. Think of it how Eevee (I'm pretty sure) has written he's best at reading emotions. Not saying I'm best at that, or even good, but it's where I'm coming from.

And yes, of course your meta is hurting you with me, I will freely admit that. When you were scum in ZM1 you were super-town and had me fooled until your hammer slip. And I myself have an established meta of voting for my top town reads (well, it's more complicated than that, but that's the best summary) under the theory that scum know playing scummy is obvscum so they play towny. That's why I've landed on you so far.

And Robz:

I would have to be really overwhelmingly convinced of your guilt to risk losing town you on Day 1, though. Maybe that's not fair to other players, but well, I want to win.

You understand our suspicions - do you see anything about yuma that makes you lean town or scum on him?

[Voltaire]

Maybe that's not fair to other players, but well, I want to win.

If your wincon is the same as mine then it's totally fair to me. 

[Robz888]

You understand our suspicions - do you see anything about yuma that makes you lean town or scum on him?

Honestly, I would just be guessing at this point.

[Robz888]

You understand our suspicions - do you see anything about yuma that makes you lean town or scum on him?

Honestly, I would just be guessing at this point.

I mean I can elaborate more, I don't think it helps matters if I do, though. I'd have to really, really think yuma is scum to want to lynch him on Day 1. He's a really valuable player if he is town. And I think we will have better evidence regarding his alignment on a later day.

[yuma]

I absolutely did not come into this game thinking "be wary of Yuma". I certainly have a high degree of respect for both your town and scum play. but I did not jump on your case early...I watched and waited patiently until I saw something stick out that really bothered me....it had nothing whatsoever to do with your meta...I hope you can appreciate that.

absolutely I can appreciate that

Yuma, thank you for taking the time to reply. I do understand why where you're coming from is frustrating. But I stand by my choices so far.

That is fair.

[chairs]

i'll try to elaborate in a post a little later (snagging a quick "my thoughts in 30 seconds or less" moment) but right now the past few pages have made me trend towards scum!yuma (slightly, not as strongly as others seem to think, primarily due to town claim but also due to long argument with sb), scum!Robz (implicit town claim), and scum!sb (argument with yuma could also benefit scum!sb if it makes yuma look more scummy to the point he gets D1 lynched, especially if he's as valuable a player as town!Robz (assuming it's town!Robz and not scum!Robz) seems to believe).

I realize that's pretty short, and I know you guys scumhunt better than I do, but I don't think it's to my (or anybody else's) benefit to just sit under the table.

[Robz888]

i'll try to elaborate in a post a little later (snagging a quick "my thoughts in 30 seconds or less" moment) but right now the past few pages have made me trend towards scum!yuma (slightly, not as strongly as others seem to think, primarily due to town claim but also due to long argument with sb), scum!Robz (implicit town claim), and scum!sb (argument with yuma could also benefit scum!sb if it makes yuma look more scummy to the point he gets D1 lynched, especially if he's as valuable a player as town!Robz (assuming it's town!Robz and not scum!Robz) seems to believe).

I realize that's pretty short, and I know you guys scumhunt better than I do, but I don't think it's to my (or anybody else's) benefit to just sit under the table.

Your argument that I am scum is that I made an implicit town claim? I think you are misremembering. It was mcmc who did that.

[Voltaire]

i'll try to elaborate in a post a little later (snagging a quick "my thoughts in 30 seconds or less" moment) but right now the past few pages have made me trend towards scum!yuma (slightly, not as strongly as others seem to think, primarily due to town claim but also due to long argument with sb), scum!Robz (implicit town claim), and scum!sb (argument with yuma could also benefit scum!sb if it makes yuma look more scummy to the point he gets D1 lynched, especially if he's as valuable a player as town!Robz (assuming it's town!Robz and not scum!Robz) seems to believe).

I realize that's pretty short, and I know you guys scumhunt better than I do, but I don't think it's to my (or anybody else's) benefit to just sit under the table.

Yes, of course! Info/reads are better than none. But I am a bit confused by what you're saying - that yuma has a town claim. We all have a town claim...it's assumed that we've all mass-claimed town at the game's start. There's no advantage to town not claiming town, and no advantage for scum claiming scum, and no advantage for anyone to not claim alignment (all of this in a normal game, of course)...so I don't follow.

[nkirbit]

For me, Chairs still has been the most obviously scummy person... he's done quite a few things that have raised alarms for me.  He's been overly agreeable, in the sense that he's changed views because others have asked him to (Posts #219, as one example, and also reminding us that he agreed to not no lynch because that's what we wanted), threw out a bunch of vague scumreads without initially backing them up, only backing them up when asked, finding a player scummy for something from outside of the game, etc.  Had any other player been doing the things Chairs did, I would find them very scummy.  BUT, chairs is a new player, so it is not necessarily as revealing in this case.  I still have my suspicions.

I don't at all buy the case on Yuma.  From my point of view, Yuma's doing things that both scum!Yuma and town!Yuma would do... how in the world are you supposed to determine if he's scum or town from that?  I have a very difficult time reading him, but nothing SB or Voltaire has said has convinced me he's scum instead of town.  I just have no clue at this point.

I'm reading SB as town.  If you go back and re-read the initial game with the thought "SB is scum", there are a number of posts that jump out at me as "oh, that makes sense".  I tried reading the new game with the same thought, and didn't come up with anything that would make sense as him being scum.  Maybe he got better with his quick practice, but I'd guess he's just town.

I'm not sure what to think about Robz.  His main view so far has been heavily pushing the chairs=scummy view.  It could be true, but I think it could easily not be.. I have no read on Robz at this point though.

[nkirbit]

Mail-Mi is an interesting one to me.  He starts off with

From my quick reread I have a null to scummyish read on nkirbit. And the scummyish part of it is just because he hasn't had as much of a presence here than usual.

I think I'll Vote: nkirbit because of reasons stated before.

So he's voting me simply because I haven't had much of a presence.  Okay, I guess.

What's worrying me is the seemingly contradictory posts.  We had the one that Yuma pointed out earlier:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

Where the two sentences lend themselves to different conclusions.  We also have:

Ready, set, reactions!

Chairs wagon: meh. He doesn't strike me as super scummy. Also I agree with yumas stance.

My wagon: yep I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that.

Reads:

Right now, chairs is on the more scummy side and mcmc on the townier side, but only barely. don't know about Robz, he's always changing everything up.

Again, Mail-mi is saying two different things in the same post:  I think this person is on the scummy side!  I don't think this person is scummy!  If you think they're scummy, why would you earlier say that they're not?  If you think someone's scummy, you should want everyone else to think that, so they get lynched!  If you don't think they're scummy, you shouldn't say that they're scummy, because you don't want a mislynch!  It looks like you're trying to play both sides, and you've done it multiple times.

I know mcmc was JK in abandoned game, were there any others? Just curious.

Is this scum!mcmc fishing for info about how players play PRs?  I don't see why this is a topic town has a desire to discuss.

[nkirbit]

Finishing off my reads, Voltaire, Lio, and mcmc are all pretty much null to me.  I don't have strong opinions on any of them.

[chairs]

Yuma, I think I agree that you seem MORE contrarian so far than usual. Their suspicion of you doesn't surprise me at all.

I would have to be really overwhelmingly convinced of your guilt to risk losing town you on Day 1, though. Maybe that's not fair to other players, but well, I want to win.

here's the implicit "I'm definitely town guys" post I mentioned.  I understand that we're all claiming town by default, but from a psychological standpoint if I find a way to say "I'm town" without SAYING "I'm town" and then you agree with the main thrust of my post, it will make you more likely later to think I'm more town-y... shouldn't it?  This is the reason I mention the implicit town claim.

I'm not saying you couldn't be town!Robz, but if I gather correctly we're supposed to be discussing our opinions (in hopes that scum!??? will make an argument that won't pass the sniff test, either now or later), and my opinion right now is that you are at least slightly on the scum!Robz side of things.  I've not played prior games with you, so I'm strictly basing this on how you've presented yourself this thread.

--

Unrelated to town/scum!Robz:

I see the argument you're making in your post, nkirbit.  I hadn't heavily considered a scum!mail-mi, but you make a good point.

[yuma]

I don't at all buy the case on Yuma.  From my point of view, Yuma's doing things that both scum!Yuma and town!Yuma would do... how in the world are you supposed to determine if he's scum or town from that?  I have a very difficult time reading him, but nothing SB or Voltaire has said has convinced me he's scum instead of town.  I just have no clue at this point.

this is ultimately exactly what I was trying to ask both spiritbears and voltaire. The how? Both have answered that a little bit better and I see more where they are coming from whereas before I felt like they were saying, yuma is playing as his normal self (regardless of town or mafia) so I will vote him, just in case he is mafia... But the conversation has helped me see that this is less so...

[nkirbit]

I don't at all buy the case on Yuma.  From my point of view, Yuma's doing things that both scum!Yuma and town!Yuma would do... how in the world are you supposed to determine if he's scum or town from that?  I have a very difficult time reading him, but nothing SB or Voltaire has said has convinced me he's scum instead of town.  I just have no clue at this point.

this is ultimately exactly what I was trying to ask both spiritbears and voltaire. The how? Both have answered that a little bit better and I see more where they are coming from whereas before I felt like they were saying, yuma is playing as his normal self (regardless of town or mafia) so I will vote him, just in case he is mafia... But the conversation has helped me see that this is less so...

I need to reread the last page or so more carefully to read their reasonings.. I admit having skimmed them at this point, am going back now.  Perhaps they can convince me!

[Voltaire]

We also have:

Ready, set, reactions!

Chairs wagon: meh. He doesn't strike me as super scummy. Also I agree with yumas stance.

My wagon: yep I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that.

Reads:

Right now, chairs is on the more scummy side and mcmc on the townier side, but only barely. don't know about Robz, he's always changing everything up.

Again, Mail-mi is saying two different things in the same post:  I think this person is on the scummy side!  I don't think this person is scummy!  If you think they're scummy, why would you earlier say that they're not?  If you think someone's scummy, you should want everyone else to think that, so they get lynched!  If you don't think they're scummy, you shouldn't say that they're scummy, because you don't want a mislynch!  It looks like you're trying to play both sides, and you've done it multiple times.

mail-mi, this is a good point by nkirbit and something I hadn't noticed myself. What do you actually think of chairs and why?

[mail-mi]

Mail-Mi is an interesting one to me.  He starts off with

From my quick reread I have a null to scummyish read on nkirbit. And the scummyish part of it is just because he hasn't had as much of a presence here than usual.

I think I'll Vote: nkirbit because of reasons stated before.

So he's voting me simply because I haven't had much of a presence.  Okay, I guess.

What's worrying me is the seemingly contradictory posts.  We had the one that Yuma pointed out earlier:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

Where the two sentences lend themselves to different conclusions.  We also have:

Ready, set, reactions!

Chairs wagon: meh. He doesn't strike me as super scummy. Also I agree with yumas stance.

My wagon: yep I probably should have thought a bit more before posting that.

Reads:

Right now, chairs is on the more scummy side and mcmc on the townier side, but only barely. don't know about Robz, he's always changing everything up.

Again, Mail-mi is saying two different things in the same post:  I think this person is on the scummy side!  I don't think this person is scummy!  If you think they're scummy, why would you earlier say that they're not?  If you think someone's scummy, you should want everyone else to think that, so they get lynched!  If you don't think they're scummy, you shouldn't say that they're scummy, because you don't want a mislynch!  It looks like you're trying to play both sides, and you've done it multiple times.

I know mcmc was JK in abandoned game, were there any others? Just curious.

Is this scum!mcmc fishing for info about how players play PRs?  I don't see why this is a topic town has a desire to discuss.

On chairs: he isn't super scummy (like Robz is saying), he's just a little bit scummy.

PPE: volt: see sbove

[shraeye]

Vote Count 1.6

mail-mi (2): yuma, liopoil
chairs (2): Robz888, nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
yuma (2): Voltaire, spiritbears
nkirbit (1): mail-mi

Not voting: mcmcsalot

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

[spiritbears]

Well that makes sense NK. (Jk!)
No really I do agree with you on chairs.
Acted very scummy. And latest confusing posy has done nothing to change my read.
In Any other game and if we didn't know robz, I would say he's acted even scumier...quickhits robz=towmrobz
Nk...*reads towni ish...need more, I want more , I  want more.....

[chairs]

Vote Count 1.6

mail-mi (2): yuma, liopoil
chairs (2): Robz888, nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
yuma (1): Voltaire
nkirbit (1): mail-mi
yuma (1): spiritbears

Not voting: mcmcsalot

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

So is that 2 votes for Yuma, then?  I want to make sure (since I put somebody under the crosshairs earlier) that I understand where we are on votes.

[yuma]

lull

[nkirbit]

Vote: Mail-mi

He's the most suspicious character to me so far.

[Robz888]

Vote: Mail-mi

He's the most suspicious character to me so far.

but why

[yuma]

is it weird that I am becoming more suspicious of the two players who are on the mail-mi wagon with me? (lio and nkirbit)

I'll answer that... no, it isn't. Because really mail-mi isn't super scummy. He has done some scummy stuff, but it is pretty slight. While I think he could be scum, this also has the markings of an easy mislynch and who wants to join onto easy mislynches? Scum. Well at least sometimes they do. other times they want to stay far away from them.

This is hard because obviously I don't know mail-mi's alignment and a lot of it is dependent on whether or not he is mafia and whether in fact he is an easy mislynch or not. Mail-mi has been lynched in 75% of the games he has been in as town. He gets lynched. But that stat alone doesn't negate that he has done something scummy.

I am going to look at lio and nkiribt, but mostly at this point I wouldn't really expect either of these players to make "scummy" plays, so I don't know if I will find anything.

I feel like robz has right now... I just don't know what to look for to find mafia in going back and rereading... That is I don't know what I am looking for until I see it... Dsell's case on me in the recent blitz game, WinterSpartan in Samurai's... And right now I haven't seen it.

Anyone up for a random lynch? We haven't tried that in ages...

[nkirbit]

Vote: Mail-mi

He's the most suspicious character to me so far.

but why

I posted why I find him suspicious like 8 or so posts before yours.

[Robz888]

Vote: Mail-mi

He's the most suspicious character to me so far.

but why

I posted why I find him suspicious like 8 or so posts before yours.

Ya that checks out

[nkirbit]

..Okay?

Are you still on the chairs lynch plan, btw?

[yuma]

nkirbit:

he voted for mcmc pretty opportunistically for the VT claim.

Unvoted when mcmc got to L-1 and never really looked back at it.

He has slowly eased into the mail-mi vote starting off with a "I am not sure about this yuma..." to questioning mail-mi and then a "mail-mi has been kinda scummy" to an actual vote.

He has also been suspicious of chairs. Right now if this were a bastard game and everyone were town, I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches. However, like I said before I don't know their alignments and if they actually are "easy mislynches" but it does make me more wary of them.

He has been open with his reads. yuma and sb town, voltaire, mcmc (now he is a null read!) and lio null.

Liopoil:

His LVS self referencing is a tactic that I could see as scum, but alone isn't enough to be suspicious of.

He was also on the mcmc wagon, but had started it up, but not for the VT stuff.

he has defended... well maybe not defended, but not found suspicious, chairs.

and also joined the mail-mi wagon after I did.

Of the two I find nkirbit the scummier. He is in a position where I would expect scum to be, kinda in the middle, not lurking not being extremely vocal. He has been on the three main "easy" wagons in mcmc, chairs and mail-mi but has stayed away from the more controversial votes (yuma, robz). I still think mail-mi is suspicious, but I am going to try out a vote: nkirbit

[spiritbears]

nkirbit:

he voted for mcmc pretty opportunistically for the VT claim.

Unvoted when mcmc got to L-1 and never really looked back at it.

He has slowly eased into the mail-mi vote starting off with a "I am not sure about this yuma..." to questioning mail-mi and then a "mail-mi has been kinda scummy" to an actual vote.

He has also been suspicious of chairs. Right now if this were a bastard game and everyone were town, I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches. However, like I said before I don't know their alignments and if they actually are "easy mislynches" but it does make me more wary of them.

He has been open with his reads. yuma and sb town, voltaire, mcmc (now he is a null read!) and lio null.

Liopoil:

His LVS self referencing is a tactic that I could see as scum, but alone isn't enough to be suspicious of.

He was also on the mcmc wagon, but had started it up, but not for the VT stuff.

he has defended... well maybe not defended, but not found suspicious, chairs.

and also joined the mail-mi wagon after I did.

Of the two I find nkirbit the scummier. He is in a position where I would expect scum to be, kinda in the middle, not lurking not being extremely vocal. He has been on the three main "easy" wagons in mcmc, chairs and mail-mi but has stayed away from the more controversial votes (yuma, robz). I still think mail-mi is suspicious, but I am going to try out a vote: nkirbit

This is a pretty good read of nk....up the point you vote him....at which point you totally lose me.
No is town...for every reason you state here....

[spiritbears]

(NK) that is....
Sorry for the lulz...

[yuma]

nkirbit:

he voted for mcmc pretty opportunistically for the VT claim.

Unvoted when mcmc got to L-1 and never really looked back at it.

He has slowly eased into the mail-mi vote starting off with a "I am not sure about this yuma..." to questioning mail-mi and then a "mail-mi has been kinda scummy" to an actual vote.

He has also been suspicious of chairs. Right now if this were a bastard game and everyone were town, I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches. However, like I said before I don't know their alignments and if they actually are "easy mislynches" but it does make me more wary of them.

He has been open with his reads. yuma and sb town, voltaire, mcmc (now he is a null read!) and lio null.

Liopoil:

His LVS self referencing is a tactic that I could see as scum, but alone isn't enough to be suspicious of.

He was also on the mcmc wagon, but had started it up, but not for the VT stuff.

he has defended... well maybe not defended, but not found suspicious, chairs.

and also joined the mail-mi wagon after I did.

Of the two I find nkirbit the scummier. He is in a position where I would expect scum to be, kinda in the middle, not lurking not being extremely vocal. He has been on the three main "easy" wagons in mcmc, chairs and mail-mi but has stayed away from the more controversial votes (yuma, robz). I still think mail-mi is suspicious, but I am going to try out a vote: nkirbit

This is a pretty good read of nk....up the point you vote him....at which point you totally lose me.
No is town...for every reason you state here....

town because he has voted for the opportunistic wagons? Ok...

[nkirbit]

What's your reasoning for having a townread on me SB?  What Yuma has said about me is true, and could either be applied to town!nkirbit, who thinks that people have made decent cases, or scum!nkirbit, who is trying to get opportunistic wagons going.  Why do you think it's the first and not the second?

[nkirbit]

tempted to liopoil, only because he is almost always right on my alignment and he isn't here.

This is odd.  The last game Lio and Mcmc were in, they spent all of day 1 screaming at each other as town vs town.

[Robz888]

Definitely, definitely agree on the nkirbit case. I like it better than your case on mail-mi, mail-mi just feels like a mislynch, right? For most of IRL today, I felt like we were headed toward a mail-mi lynch, and that I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him flip town.

The nkirbit case is much better. And he's a smart guy, he plays like a smart guy, and I think he would play scum sort of fairly competently (from his perspective) but might still get caught by someone like you or me, who knows what to look for in a newbie scum.

Do I like it better than my chairs case? I guess so.

Vote: nkirbit

[Robz888]

Is mcmc in this game? Has he spoken? I have no memory of it.

I mean, the only people who are making comments that even register with me (in that I can recall them at all) are yuma and SB, and liopoil a little bit.

[chairs]

I thought I was pretty active, though I guess my scumhunt-fu is weak

[Voltaire]

Is mcmc in this game? Has he spoken? I have no memory of it.

You don't remember the whole did-he-claim VT thing? He hasn't posted much, but what he has posted has been memorable.

Yuma's case on nkirbit looks pretty good. It's the first case from someone else I've agreed with, but I'm not quite ready to vote nkirbit:

I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches.

Yet mail-mi was your vote - was it who joined that wagon that had you realize your case on mail-mi was bad? What does that say about your initial reasons?

mcmc, please do post soon (I know it's Tuesday, yadayadayada). You're the only one I'm treating as obvtown for now, so I'd like to know where you stand.

[yuma]

I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches.

Yet mail-mi was your vote - was it who joined that wagon that had you realize your case on mail-mi was bad? What does that say about your initial reasons?

mcmc, please do post soon (I know it's Tuesday, yadayadayada). You're the only one I'm treating as obvtown for now, so I'd like to know where you stand.

I don't think my case on mail-mi was necessarily bad. It is just that I don't know if mail-mi is actually scum or just scummy. And I won't "know" until he flips, obviously, but even then I am not confident in my case in the way I am sometimes more confident. This lack of confidence makes me look around and wonder if he is actually scum...

if I were to quote a part of my post that says what I am really thinking it wouldn't be what you quoted it would be

Right now if this were a bastard game and everyone were town, I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches. However, like I said before I don't know their alignments and if they actually are "easy mislynches" but it does make me more wary of them.

Obviously this isn't a bastard game and everyone isn't town. But right now the little bit of scumminess I see in mail-mi isn't as striking to me as nkirbits being on the three "easy" lynches right now.

[Voltaire]

Alright, I can go for vote: nkirbit. I believe that's 3. Can we get an updated vote count?

nkirbit, why so many wagons?

[Voltaire]

unvote

Remembered Robz's vote, not sure if I put nkirbit at L-1 or not. Holding off until we have a vote count.

[spiritbears]

Man I feel like the nk is the weakest one yet!  So the entire case is he voted yes on the three main lunch candidates?  Well geez that's damning...maybe he just found the cases compelling?  No we have to assign bad motive to voting....I don't like how this game is being manipulated by scum.

[Voltaire]

I don't like how this game is being manipulated by scum.

Which would be who? I'm not ready to lynch nkirbit but I am ready to vote for him. Votes apply pressure and reactions under pressure are useful. I'm quite happy going back to yuma if nkirbit is cleared.

[yuma]

Man I feel like the nk is the weakest one yet!  So the entire case is he voted yes on the three main lunch candidates?  Well geez that's damning...maybe he just found the cases compelling?  No we have to assign bad motive to voting....I don't like how this game is being manipulated by scum.

it is! or at least it can be. Take for example ashersky in the last game... Mean Girls. Day1 he was on all of the main lynch wagons... mail-mi, robz and sudgy.

Day2 I called him out on it (bussing as partners) and we had a nice long argument about it that everyone else ignored. If others might have latched onto that, you might have put pressure on him before he claimed... but you guys didn't. but that really isn't the point.

the point is that a tactic that scum often uses is to try and be on the main lynches to push them to go through. It is especially a tactic to not create any of the cases, but to try and be the 2nd or 3rd player onto said wagons. Which is exactly what nk is doing... he hasn't created any of the cases on chairs, nkirbit or mail-mi... he jumped onto them when they were in full swing... It has a great potential to be scummy, yet you are refusing to see it (is it because I am the one presenting it? What if someone else were putting the case forward? would that change your mind?)

[spiritbears]

Man I feel like the nk is the weakest one yet!  So the entire case is he voted yes on the three main lunch candidates?  Well geez that's damning...maybe he just found the cases compelling?  No we have to assign bad motive to voting....I don't like how this game is being manipulated by scum.

it is! or at least it can be. Take for example ashersky in the last game... Mean Girls. Day1 he was on all of the main lynch wagons... mail-mi, robz and sudgy.

Day2 I called him out on it (bussing as partners) and we had a nice long argument about it that everyone else ignored. If others might have latched onto that, you might have put pressure on him before he claimed... but you guys didn't. but that really isn't the point.

the point is that a tactic that scum often uses is to try and be on the main lynches to push them to go through. It is especially a tactic to not create any of the cases, but to try and be the 2nd or 3rd player onto said wagons. Which is exactly what nk is doing... he hasn't created any of the cases on chairs, nkirbit or mail-mi... he jumped onto them when they were in full swing... It has a great potential to be scummy, yet you are refusing to see it (is it because I am the one presenting it? What if someone else were putting the case forward? would that change your mind?)

Again Yuma. It has nothing to do with animus toward you...I have none. And I'm not saying you are the scum manipulating town. But I feel like wagons are forming and getting close to lynches very quickly without enough discussion or good reasons.  Maybe nk's opportunistic voting is part of the problem.  But does that justify the opportunistic voting on his wagon?? I say take a look at how this latest wagon formed.  I would bet there is scum on the wagon.   (Also your list includes nk himself...not sure whst that's about)

[spiritbears]

So robz questions nk, (because he failed to read his analysis of why mai is suspicious), re-reads and then says "that checks out"....but less than a page later he votes nk, without much reasoning at all....super scummy
vote robz

[yuma]

Man I feel like the nk is the weakest one yet!  So the entire case is he voted yes on the three main lunch candidates?  Well geez that's damning...maybe he just found the cases compelling?  No we have to assign bad motive to voting....I don't like how this game is being manipulated by scum.

it is! or at least it can be. Take for example ashersky in the last game... Mean Girls. Day1 he was on all of the main lynch wagons... mail-mi, robz and sudgy.

Day2 I called him out on it (bussing as partners) and we had a nice long argument about it that everyone else ignored. If others might have latched onto that, you might have put pressure on him before he claimed... but you guys didn't. but that really isn't the point.

the point is that a tactic that scum often uses is to try and be on the main lynches to push them to go through. It is especially a tactic to not create any of the cases, but to try and be the 2nd or 3rd player onto said wagons. Which is exactly what nk is doing... he hasn't created any of the cases on chairs, nkirbit or mail-mi... he jumped onto them when they were in full swing... It has a great potential to be scummy, yet you are refusing to see it (is it because I am the one presenting it? What if someone else were putting the case forward? would that change your mind?)

Again Yuma. It has nothing to do with animus toward you...I have none. And I'm not saying you are the scum manipulating town. But I feel like wagons are forming and getting close to lynches very quickly without enough discussion or good reasons.  Maybe nk's opportunistic voting is part of the problem.  But does that justify the opportunistic voting on his wagon?? I say take a look at how this latest wagon formed.  I would bet there is scum on the wagon.   (Also your list includes nk himself...not sure whst that's about)

If you are still voting for me... which you are last I checked... it means that you think I am scum and am manipulating town. And I know what you are saying in regard to "good reasons" like I said it is Day1. Nothing that comes out of this is going to be great, but just because it isn't great doesn't mean it isn't worth something. And further I agree with you, if nkiribit is town (something that I don't know, and if you are town, you shouldn't know either...) there likely is mafia on it.

NK in the list should be mcmc... sorry typo.

[spiritbears]

See above

[Voltaire]

So robz questions nk, (because he failed to read his analysis of why mai is suspicious), re-reads and then says "that checks out"....but less than a page later he votes nk, without much reasoning at all....super scummy
vote robz

Robz could have not read yuma's post until after that, though.

[spiritbears]

So robz questions nk, (because he failed to read his analysis of why mai is suspicious), re-reads and then says "that checks out"....but less than a page later he votes nk, without much reasoning at all....super scummy
vote robz

Robz could have not read yuma's post until after that, though.

I don't understand whst you are saying.  Reread the page before this one. Look at how robz came to be on the nk bandwagon....scummy

[Voltaire]

So robz questions nk, (because he failed to read his analysis of why mai is suspicious), re-reads and then says "that checks out"....but less than a page later he votes nk, without much reasoning at all....super scummy
vote robz

Robz could have not read yuma's post until after that, though.

I don't understand whst you are saying.  Reread the page before this one. Look at how robz came to be on the nk bandwagon....scummy

Yuma posted his case on nkirbit after all of this. If yuma added new info (which I agree with), then it's not scummy for Robz to join if he thinks the case is good (if it overrides his previous opinions).

[spiritbears]

Except that Yuma really didn't make a case...his only "hard evidence" was "opportunistic vote on mc"....which is really just opinion.  The whole "new info" you refer to is really about three short sentences....that are mostly opinion and not fact based. Robz immediately buys it...obviously without a close read of it...and without saying why or what he sees in nk....

[Voltaire]

Except that Yuma really didn't make a case...his only "hard evidence" was "opportunistic vote on mc"....which is really just opinion.  The whole "new info" you refer to is really about three short sentences....that are mostly opinion and not fact based. Robz immediately buys it...obviously without a close read of it...and without saying why or what he sees in nk....

Well then what do you think of my vote on nkirbit?

[spiritbears]

Problematic.  But not as ugly as robz...

[yuma]

Problematic.  But not as ugly as robz...

But why? Why is either problematic? As individual votes that is... because you are basically being suspicious of these two for the same reason I am of nkirbit... (which you have said you didn't like) for jumping on a wagon. But the difference is that in nkirbit there is a trend... 3 different wagons on 3 different players who kinda looked like they might be easy lynches. with robz and voltaire... not so much of a trend as this is more of a solitary incident.

[nkirbit]

Yuma:  I don't see why you see a trend in me that you don't see in Robz.  Both Robz and I voted for mcmc, for the exact same reason, one post after the other.

I voted for mail-mi after you had, and Robz voted for myself after you had.

I voted for Chairs after Robz had, but Robz hadn't voted until I had applied some pressure on him and made it clear that I was suspicious of what he was saying.  I guess it's important that Robz voted before I did, but I think you're incorrect in saying that there's a trend for me where there isn't for Robz.  We're both acting in a similar way.

Which makes me suspicious of Robz for finding me suspicious for something he himself is doing.  Hm.

[spiritbears]

Yuma:  I don't see why you see a trend in me that you don't see in Robz.  Both Robz and I voted for mcmc, for the exact same reason, one post after the other.

I voted for mail-mi after you had, and Robz voted for myself after you had.

I voted for Chairs after Robz had, but Robz hadn't voted until I had applied some pressure on him and made it clear that I was suspicious of what he was saying.  I guess it's important that Robz voted before I did, but I think you're incorrect in saying that there's a trend for me where there isn't for Robz.  We're both acting in a similar way.

Which makes me suspicious of Robz for finding me suspicious for something he himself is doing.  Hm.

Right. Except robz doesn't back his votes up with any reads or information. I'm much mire comfortable with a robz than a mai vote.

[Voltaire]

Right. Except robz doesn't back his votes up with any reads or information. I'm much mire comfortable with a robz than a mai vote.

Problem is townRobz does that sort of scummy thing all the time. Don't get me wrong, my Robz read right now is town, but I'm frustrated by it. Because there's not that much helpful to it that I see (yet).

[nkirbit]

Yuma, what do you think about robz and Voltaire immediately voting for me after you posted your case?  Are you worried about their votes on me?

[mail-mi]

Am i still on Nk? If I am, I like yuma's case and would like to keep my vote there.

Can we have a vote count plz?

[Robz888]

Yuma:  I don't see why you see a trend in me that you don't see in Robz.  Both Robz and I voted for mcmc, for the exact same reason, one post after the other.

I voted for mail-mi after you had, and Robz voted for myself after you had.

I voted for Chairs after Robz had, but Robz hadn't voted until I had applied some pressure on him and made it clear that I was suspicious of what he was saying.  I guess it's important that Robz voted before I did, but I think you're incorrect in saying that there's a trend for me where there isn't for Robz.  We're both acting in a similar way.

Which makes me suspicious of Robz for finding me suspicious for something he himself is doing.  Hm.

What are you even saying? I don't get this at all. You didn't pressure me to do anything. I don't care what you want me to do.

[Robz888]

Yuma, what do you think about robz and Voltaire immediately voting for me after you posted your case?  Are you worried about their votes on me?

Leading questions like this are SO SO scummy. "Yuma, I need to refocus you away from my wagon, can I call your attention to these other people, criticize them on these (semi-sensible) grounds, and pique your interest? If so, tell me, so that I can continue. If not, disregard, and I will find some other method of courting your support. Regards, nkribt."

[spiritbears]

Yuma, what do you think about robz and Voltaire immediately voting for me after you posted your case?  Are you worried about their votes on me?

Leading questions like this are SO SO scummy. "Yuma, I need to refocus you away from my wagon, can I call your attention to these other people, criticize them on these (semi-sensible) grounds, and pique your interest? If so, tell me, so that I can continue. If not, disregard, and I will find some other method of courting your support. Regards, nkribt."

It's a legit question which you obviously dont want answered

[nkirbit]

Yuma, what do you think about robz and Voltaire immediately voting for me after you posted your case?  Are you worried about their votes on me?

Leading questions like this are SO SO scummy. "Yuma, I need to refocus you away from my wagon, can I call your attention to these other people, criticize them on these (semi-sensible) grounds, and pique your interest? If so, tell me, so that I can continue. If not, disregard, and I will find some other method of courting your support. Regards, nkribt."

Would you rather me bend over?

[nkirbit]

Yuma:  I don't see why you see a trend in me that you don't see in Robz.  Both Robz and I voted for mcmc, for the exact same reason, one post after the other.

I voted for mail-mi after you had, and Robz voted for myself after you had.

I voted for Chairs after Robz had, but Robz hadn't voted until I had applied some pressure on him and made it clear that I was suspicious of what he was saying.  I guess it's important that Robz voted before I did, but I think you're incorrect in saying that there's a trend for me where there isn't for Robz.  We're both acting in a similar way.

Which makes me suspicious of Robz for finding me suspicious for something he himself is doing.  Hm.

What are you even saying? I don't get this at all. You didn't pressure me to do anything. I don't care what you want me to do.

The him was chairs there.  I guess that was a little unclear.  I had applied a little pressure to chairs before you had voted for him

[nkirbit]

Here's mail-mi's interactions with me this game.

1. I haven't noticed nkirbit much this game, I'll re-read him.
2. Didn't find anything, but I still find him scummy for lurking
3. I'll vote nkirbit, no new info
(Yuma, robz, Voltaire vote nkirbit for completely unrelated reasons)
4. I like the new reasons on nkirbit, I'll keep my vote there.

Is the fact the he singled out a player for a reread, found nothing, voted him anyway, then steeped another case on that player just a coincidence?  I don't think so.

[Robz888]

Yuma, what do you think about robz and Voltaire immediately voting for me after you posted your case?  Are you worried about their votes on me?

Leading questions like this are SO SO scummy. "Yuma, I need to refocus you away from my wagon, can I call your attention to these other people, criticize them on these (semi-sensible) grounds, and pique your interest? If so, tell me, so that I can continue. If not, disregard, and I will find some other method of courting your support. Regards, nkribt."

It's a legit question which you obviously dont want answered

It's the way he asked it. If nkirbit wants to make the argument that mine and Voltaire's votes are scummy, he should just go ahead and argue it, rather than first testing to see if yuma could be amenable to that argument.

[Robz888]

Here's mail-mi's interactions with me this game.

1. I haven't noticed nkirbit much this game, I'll re-read him.
2. Didn't find anything, but I still find him scummy for lurking
3. I'll vote nkirbit, no new info
(Yuma, robz, Voltaire vote nkirbit for completely unrelated reasons)
4. I like the new reasons on nkirbit, I'll keep my vote there.

Is the fact the he singled out a player for a reread, found nothing, voted him anyway, then steeped another case on that player just a coincidence?  I don't think so.

Okay, that also looks scummy to me. Well, more lazy than scummy. But lazy could be scummy.

[nkirbit]

If it was anyone other than mail-mi, I would say scummy for sure. I can't be sure with him, I would lean scummy though.

[Voltaire]

nkirbit has acquitted himself well to his wagon. At the moment I no longer plan on re-voting nkirbit.

[Robz888]

nkirbit has acquitted himself well to his wagon. At the moment I no longer plan on re-voting nkirbit.

In what was he? Again, I think this...

Yuma, what do you think about robz and Voltaire immediately voting for me after you posted your case?  Are you worried about their votes on me?

... is the absolute scummiest way you can respond to a wagon against you. He doesn't get angry, he doesn't ignore it, he doesn't refute it, he just quietly looks for a hole to poke. That's what scum do.

[Robz888]

First part should be "in what way has he"

[mail-mi]

Here's mail-mi's interactions with me this game.

1. I haven't noticed nkirbit much this game, I'll re-read him.
2. Didn't find anything, but I still find him scummy for lurking
3. I'll vote nkirbit, no new info
(Yuma, robz, Voltaire vote nkirbit for completely unrelated reasons)
4. I like the new reasons on nkirbit, I'll keep my vote there.

Is the fact the he singled out a player for a reread, found nothing, voted him anyway, then steeped another case on that player just a coincidence?  I don't think so.

It was because I didn't tnitice you as much as usual. I thought that sligHtly scummy, so I voted. After Yuma made Tye case (which provided more evidence) I kept My vote on you. What's so scummy about that?

[Voltaire]

nkirbit has acquitted himself well to his wagon. At the moment I no longer plan on re-voting nkirbit.

In what was he? Again, I think this...

Yuma, what do you think about robz and Voltaire immediately voting for me after you posted your case?  Are you worried about their votes on me?

... is the absolute scummiest way you can respond to a wagon against you. He doesn't get angry, he doesn't ignore it, he doesn't refute it, he just quietly looks for a hole to poke. That's what scum do.

Actually, in my experience, scum gets frustrated. Not mad, not angry, not panic-y (well, some bad scum do), just frustrated. And I'm not seeing that with nkirbit. It's legit to ask the question he did. It's also legit for yuma to say, I have no problem with their (yours and my) votes.

I don't trust your scum reads quite as much, Robz, since you seem to have an awful lot of them and tend to be awfully certain of them. Scummy!=scum, basically.

[nkirbit]

It's awfully coincidental, don't you think, mail-mi?

As to your point, Robz, I can see why you think that is scummy.  I wanted Yuma's opinion on something, because he seems to be the only other person here (where the heck are lio and mcmc, by the way?)  The question involves Voltaire and Robz, and SB had already made his opinion on the matter clear.

But do you really believe I wanted to distract you guys from the case on me?  I assume that you all can handle multiple questions at once.  If I'm wrong, let me know, but if you think I thought that I would be able to distract players such as yourself and Yuma, you're wrong.  I don't think I could do that, and I wasn't trying to.  I was just asking a question.

[Voltaire]

We haven't heard from lio in awhile. Other than that I think everyone's checked in recently...right?

[Robz888]

Part of my suspicion on nkirbit is that he IS playing well. He's handling pressure well, not panicking, etc. And I know he's relatively knew but I think he has the makings of a great player. So I'm looking for some decent newbie scum play from him, and I think I may be seeing it.

[nkirbit]

We haven't heard from lio in awhile. Other than that I think everyone's checked in recently...right?

Mcmc as well.

[nkirbit]

Yuma:  I don't see why you see a trend in me that you don't see in Robz.  Both Robz and I voted for mcmc, for the exact same reason, one post after the other.

I voted for mail-mi after you had, and Robz voted for myself after you had.

I voted for Chairs after Robz had, but Robz hadn't voted until I had applied some pressure on Chairs and made it clear that I was suspicious of what Chairs was saying.  I guess it's important that Robz voted for chairs before I did, but I think you're incorrect in saying that there's a trend for me where there isn't for Robz.  We're both acting in a similar way.

Which makes me suspicious of Robz for finding me suspicious for something he himself is doing.  Hm.

Now that I've cleared up some pronouns, what do you think about this, Robz?  For me, there are two things:

1)  Robz finding me suspicious for something that he himself did.
2)  Yuma finding me, and not Robz, suspicious for something that we both did.

This is independent of whether or not you find my defense scummy or good or whatever.

Do you find it odd that Yuma singled me out?  Or does it make sense for town!Yuma to do that?

[nkirbit]

I guess by the time Yuma had voted for me, you had yet to vote for me, obviously, so there's a little issue with the timeline in there that you should keep in mind.

[shraeye]

Vote Count 1.7

mail-mi (2): liopoil, nkirbit
Robz888 (2): chairs, spiritbears
nkirbit (3): mail-mi, yuma, Robz888

Not voting: mcmcsalot, Voltaire,

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

[Robz888]

Yuma:  I don't see why you see a trend in me that you don't see in Robz.  Both Robz and I voted for mcmc, for the exact same reason, one post after the other.

I voted for mail-mi after you had, and Robz voted for myself after you had.

I voted for Chairs after Robz had, but Robz hadn't voted until I had applied some pressure on Chairs and made it clear that I was suspicious of what Chairs was saying.  I guess it's important that Robz voted for chairs before I did, but I think you're incorrect in saying that there's a trend for me where there isn't for Robz.  We're both acting in a similar way.

Which makes me suspicious of Robz for finding me suspicious for something he himself is doing.  Hm.

Now that I've cleared up some pronouns, what do you think about this, Robz?  For me, there are two things:

1)  Robz finding me suspicious for something that he himself did.
2)  Yuma finding me, and not Robz, suspicious for something that we both did.

This is independent of whether or not you find my defense scummy or good or whatever.

Do you find it odd that Yuma singled me out?  Or does it make sense for town!Yuma to do that?

Ugh. I'm still having trouble deciphering this.

[Robz888]

Chairs's vote put someone to L-1.

My vote was only the second vote against someone (or so I thought). I liked yuma's case and wanted it to be taken more seriously, so I added my vote to it.

[nkirbit]

My votes were the second for mail-mi, the second for mcmc, and the second for chairs.  I made the mcmc vote because I was frustrated with him for making what I thought was a VT claim.  I made the votes for chairs and mail-mi because I found them both scummy and wanted to highlight why I found them scummy.  You had the second vote for myself because you found me scummy and wanted to highlight why you found me scummy.  You had the first vote for chairs because you found him scummy and wanted to highlight why you found him scummy.

I don't particularly see why Yuma is saying this:

But the difference is that in nkirbit there is a trend... 3 different wagons on 3 different players who kinda looked like they might be easy lynches. with robz and voltaire... not so much of a trend as this is more of a solitary incident.

When there doesn't appear to be much of a difference between your votes and my votes.  I don't see why I have a trend of voting this way when you do not.

[liopoil]

I'm here, catching up now!

[Voltaire]

I'm here, catching up now!

Bring mcmc with you. 

[spiritbears]

This had done nothing to change my reads...only strengthened them
Scum to chum
Robz
Mai
Yuma
Chairs
Volt
Mc
Lio
Nk

[chairs]

If nk is scum, he's being awfully calm about it.  Conversely, if "good scum" doesn't panic, and Robz plays good scum, then this is (slightly) town!Robz, because he seems alarmed.  But then we get into my new favorite acronym, WIFOM 

[mcmcsalot]

Okie dokie, I'm caught up. In all honestly you guys droned on and didn't talk about a whole lot. I've got scum reads on nk and chairs and town reads on robz yuma and sb. Not sure on volt or liopoil or mail.

[spiritbears]

Okie dokie, I'm caught up. In all honestly you guys droned on and didn't talk about a whole lot. I've got scum reads on nk and chairs and town reads on robz yuma and sb. Not sure on volt or liopoil or mail.

Hey mc. Welcome back
Tell me more about nk.  What do you see there? 

[mcmcsalot]

nkirbit:

he voted for mcmc pretty opportunistically for the VT claim.

Unvoted when mcmc got to L-1 and never really looked back at it.

He has slowly eased into the mail-mi vote starting off with a "I am not sure about this yuma..." to questioning mail-mi and then a "mail-mi has been kinda scummy" to an actual vote.

He has also been suspicious of chairs. Right now if this were a bastard game and everyone were town, I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches. However, like I said before I don't know their alignments and if they actually are "easy mislynches" but it does make me more wary of them.

He has been open with his reads. yuma and sb town, voltaire, mcmc (now he is a null read!) and lio null.

Liopoil:

His LVS self referencing is a tactic that I could see as scum, but alone isn't enough to be suspicious of.

He was also on the mcmc wagon, but had started it up, but not for the VT stuff.

he has defended... well maybe not defended, but not found suspicious, chairs.

and also joined the mail-mi wagon after I did.

Of the two I find nkirbit the scummier. He is in a position where I would expect scum to be, kinda in the middle, not lurking not being extremely vocal. He has been on the three main "easy" wagons in mcmc, chairs and mail-mi but has stayed away from the more controversial votes (yuma, robz). I still think mail-mi is suspicious, but I am going to try out a vote: nkirbit

[mcmcsalot]

lol but really I like robz case on chairs and yumas case on nk, I'm thinking they are town and are making some good cases. I noticed the thing with you and yuma and your suggestion that yuma was making the same case he did as scum, I do 100% know yuma to be a similar scum player to me(which is why I think he often catches me) and he will make the same cases as town and scum. Its something scummy he has seen and thats decent for day one.

[spiritbears]

Yeah but yumas whole case on nk was his silly Vt vote on you...that's just not a case.  It's totally weaksauce, which is surprising you would follow it.  I realize it's yuma so it carries some weight....but it's really a bad bad case.

[nkirbit]

Yeah but yumas whole case on nk was his silly Vt vote on you...that's just not a case.  It's totally weaksauce, which is surprising you would follow it.  I realize it's yuma so it carries some weight....but it's really a bad bad case.

That wasn't yuma's whole case

[spiritbears]

Yeah but yumas whole case on nk was his silly Vt vote on you...that's just not a case.  It's totally weaksauce, which is surprising you would follow it.  I realize it's yuma so it carries some weight....but it's really a bad bad case.

That wasn't yuma's whole case

Yes it is....it's right there above this^^^  it is almost exclusively about your mc vote

[nkirbit]

Yeah but yumas whole case on nk was his silly Vt vote on you...that's just not a case.  It's totally weaksauce, which is surprising you would follow it.  I realize it's yuma so it carries some weight....but it's really a bad bad case.

That wasn't yuma's whole case

Yes it is....it's right there above this^^^  it is almost exclusively about your mc vote

No, it's not.  It's that I made a series of votes which, taken all together, can be viewed as scummy.  The vote on mcmc was one of them, the others were my votes on mail-mi and chairs.  I don't think he had a problem with any of those votes individually

[liopoil]

Okay caught up. thoughts:

And some more reads: you(ma) (for actually scum hunting, even though its on me) and volt (mostly a gut feel) are looking towny, SB's " mod eouldnt make newbie scum" is horribly horribly wrong. I think I'll Vote: nkirbit because of reasons stated before.

what? you say essentially, "Town reads on Yuma and Volt for being towny, SB is wrong, I'll vote for nkirbit". Which reasons stated before? And giving townreads for scumhunting is silly, everyone scumhunts! (especially yuma)

Spiritbears has a point about the case on mail-mi being similar to the one at the end of mean girls. However, it was actually scummy then and it is still scummy now, as Yuma says.

I'll ask shraeye, I think he might answer, and I'm pretty sure of what answer he will give:

Shraeye, would you, under any circumstances, re-roll the setup based on something like giving a newbie a good introduction to the game.

This is unnecessary. The answer is NO. It would unbalance the game if one person just was automatically town because you can't make a newbie a scum. I mean honestly, it's absurd. So no.

completely agree, just wanted confirmation. I don't need it now though, we're past that.

Yuma, what do you think about robz and Voltaire immediately voting for me after you posted your case?  Are you worried about their votes on me?

I definitely agree that this is a shout out for help.

nkirbit has also been on all the recent wagons, which while town does it, I have to believe that scum does it much more. Scum will accept any mislynch that they can get.

Mail-mi can be an easy mislynch. In Samurai and Ninja's, I realized this, and so was against his lynch on D2. the problem was, he was actually scum that time. So I am unsure how to read him now, but he's been scummy here, so I figured I'll treat him like everyone else, and vote for him. It's quite possible that he's the easy mislynch here again.

I have read all the posts now, but I feel a bit behind.  I see the Nkirbit case and could very well vote for him. I'll Unvote for now. Another person I'm wary of right now is spiritbears. He has defended nkirbit and mail-mi oddly, I am not sure yet it that's scummy or not.

[nkirbit]

I'm not sure what to think about SB, honestly.  I'm not convinced he understands Yuma's case.. he said it was mostly based off of my vote on Mcmc, which is not true.  I guess that's a part of it, but that's not what Yuma finds me scummy for.  He's looking at the bigger picture.

If SB is town, then he's simply misunderstanding a case.  From my point of view, I have to either decide if this is town SB misunderstanding, scum SB misunderstanding, or scum SB manipulating what Yuma said.  I don't think scum would try such a tactic to try and protect a town member (remember, this is from my point of view!).. it's just too risky to try that, I would think.  So I do think SB is just misunderstanding Yuma's case, and that's not a reason for me to find him scummy.

[nkirbit]

lol but really I like robz case on chairs and yumas case on nk, I'm thinking they are town and are making some good cases. I noticed the thing with you and yuma and your suggestion that yuma was making the same case he did as scum, I do 100% know yuma to be a similar scum player to me(which is why I think he often catches me) and he will make the same cases as town and scum. Its something scummy he has seen and thats decent for day one.

How is what mcmc doing here at all different than what I did?  I actually gave new reasons for why I had my views instead of completely adopting someone else's case?

[mail-mi]

Okay caught up. thoughts:

And some more reads: you(ma) (for actually scum hunting, even though its on me) and volt (mostly a gut feel) are looking towny, SB's " mod eouldnt make newbie scum" is horribly horribly wrong. I think I'll Vote: nkirbit because of reasons stated before.

what? you say essentially, "Town reads on Yuma and Volt for being towny, SB is wrong, I'll vote for nkirbit". Which reasons stated before? And giving townreads for scumhunting is silly, everyone scumhunts! (especially yuma)

Lurking a little. Then Yuma made a case and I thought it was a good one, so i kept my vote there.

Scumhunting: But yuma's one of the only ones actually doing it! besides, its just some towncred

[spiritbears]

I'm not sure what to think about SB, honestly.  I'm not convinced he understands Yuma's case.. he said it was mostly based off of my vote on Mcmc, which is not true.  I guess that's a part of it, but that's not what Yuma finds me scummy for.  He's looking at the bigger picture.

If SB is town, then he's simply misunderstanding a case.  From my point of view, I have to either decide if this is town SB misunderstanding, scum SB misunderstanding, or scum SB manipulating what Yuma said.  I don't think scum would try such a tactic to try and protect a town member (remember, this is from my point of view!).. it's just too risky to try that, I would think.  So I do think SB is just misunderstanding Yuma's case, and that's not a reason for me to find him scummy.

I don't know whst you're trying to prove here.  Yumas case is not complicated. Read the damn post.  2/3 if the case (which has been repeated ad nauseam) revolves around your mc vote unvote....he only breifly mentions mai, because there is nothing to talk about there.  And doesn't say anything about the chairs wagon...again bcsuse their is nothing there....but hell if you want to contradict that and get yourself lynched I will just get out of your way.....

[nkirbit]

Okay, BUT, if the game takes overwhelmingly more effort for town to win, then the balance is off.

The counterpoint to this is... for awhile the complaint was the opposite, because we were playing so much multiball, where scum has a much harder time. In DS9, I worked harder for my scum victory than all my other games put together.

My argument isn't that town needs to "work harder than scum" though, it's that "When a town member puts in any modicum of work, they often get crucified by other townies for "trying too hard, therefore must be scum leading town astray"". Even in M-XXI, where eHal and I really did put in our share of the work to win, there were many people who wanted our heads with accusations of "who made you leader and why should we listen to you?" - And certainly, town NEEDS to question everything they read... But in many, many games that effort and those statements lead to a lynch of the person who is "trying too hard". This was evident in a handful of games following XXI, when eHal and I both got pounded on for actually doing some work

And sure, scum fan the flames of distrust, but they are rarely the driving voices, because if someone is playing a strong town game, but gets lynched anyway, scum doesn't want to be seen as the reason.

My point anyway, isn't that town doesn't need to do more work, it's that "town" needs to do a better job of not penalizing it's own members who do bother to try. (This is especially annoying when it's the lurker town making accusations at the playing town). Scum can still outplay town, sure, but it forces them to play a stronger game.

This is from the "this is where people post when it's night" thread.  Keep this in mind.

My mcmc vote was mainly out of frustration with what I thought was a VT claim, but I stand behind my mail-mi and chairs votes.  You have a player who is saying X and Y are scummy, and you agree that X and Y are scummy, but are spinning that as I'm scummy rather than taking it as face value.  If you agree that Chairs and Mail-Mi were in fact scummy, you're doing exactly what Galzria is cautioning you about.  I just want you to keep this in mind.

It's frustrating for me that I pointed at mail-mi for being scummy, gave good reasons why I believed his scummy, and for the most part, it doesn't seem like anyone has disagreed with my reasons.  Yet I'm still the scummy one here?  Seriously?

Mcmc has made like, four posts all game, and drawn no serious inspection, despite not actively contributing to any scumhunting.

I've put forth views, pointed out actions players have done, explained why I think they're scummy, and yet, I'm still the prime target for the lynch.  I've think I've made only one post which is scummy in and of itself (which Robz has pointed out), yet that was after I already had 3 votes and a fourth player stating they were willing to vote for me.

And you guys really aren't sure why your games are unbalanced towards scum?  You claim to want scumhunting and activity, yet actively punish players who perform such activity.  In Shakespeare, I had a case built against me because I was active, yet did not enough.  In this game, I've had a case built against me because I was active, and voted too much.  The message I'm receiving is "if you want to be not seen as scummy, then don't be too active".  And you wonder why your games are unbalanced when you are sending messages like that.

It's frustrating.

[yuma]

been really busy today, friend came in from phoenix so we have been board gaming it up and hiking and swimming. I'll catch up tomorrow, but I will say to sb that no... sb my case is not just about nk's vote on mcmc. It is about the trend. I'll repeat it again. The trend of voting for what could potentially be easy mislynches... It isn't the individual vote on mcmc, it is the trend.

Someone asked me why I differentiated between robz and nk. Because I didn't notice that robz had a trend. I went back and reread you (and lio because both of you had given me questionable feelings after you joined my mail-mi case) and haven't gone back and reread robz. I will tomorrow and will see if he also has a trend. But I can say that he wasn't on the mail-mi wagon...

But mostly I do feel like there is the potential that scum is doing the opposite of what I was frustrated with voltaire and sb about in "following the yuma." I make a case and pretty quick there are 2-3 people (possibly including scum) saying "yeah! that is scummy!" and joining on pretty quick.

But like I said, I will get back into this tomorrow and address questions more specifically then.

[yuma]

Okay, BUT, if the game takes overwhelmingly more effort for town to win, then the balance is off.

The counterpoint to this is... for awhile the complaint was the opposite, because we were playing so much multiball, where scum has a much harder time. In DS9, I worked harder for my scum victory than all my other games put together.

My argument isn't that town needs to "work harder than scum" though, it's that "When a town member puts in any modicum of work, they often get crucified by other townies for "trying too hard, therefore must be scum leading town astray"". Even in M-XXI, where eHal and I really did put in our share of the work to win, there were many people who wanted our heads with accusations of "who made you leader and why should we listen to you?" - And certainly, town NEEDS to question everything they read... But in many, many games that effort and those statements lead to a lynch of the person who is "trying too hard". This was evident in a handful of games following XXI, when eHal and I both got pounded on for actually doing some work

And sure, scum fan the flames of distrust, but they are rarely the driving voices, because if someone is playing a strong town game, but gets lynched anyway, scum doesn't want to be seen as the reason.

My point anyway, isn't that town doesn't need to do more work, it's that "town" needs to do a better job of not penalizing it's own members who do bother to try. (This is especially annoying when it's the lurker town making accusations at the playing town). Scum can still outplay town, sure, but it forces them to play a stronger game.

This is from the "this is where people post when it's night" thread.  Keep this in mind.

My mcmc vote was mainly out of frustration with what I thought was a VT claim, but I stand behind my mail-mi and chairs votes.  You have a player who is saying X and Y are scummy, and you agree that X and Y are scummy, but are spinning that as I'm scummy rather than taking it as face value.  If you agree that Chairs and Mail-Mi were in fact scummy, you're doing exactly what Galzria is cautioning you about.  I just want you to keep this in mind.

It's frustrating for me that I pointed at mail-mi for being scummy, gave good reasons why I believed his scummy, and for the most part, it doesn't seem like anyone has disagreed with my reasons.  Yet I'm still the scummy one here?  Seriously?

Mcmc has made like, four posts all game, and drawn no serious inspection, despite not actively contributing to any scumhunting.

I've put forth views, pointed out actions players have done, explained why I think they're scummy, and yet, I'm still the prime target for the lynch.  I've think I've made only one post which is scummy in and of itself (which Robz has pointed out), yet that was after I already had 3 votes and a fourth player stating they were willing to vote for me.

And you guys really aren't sure why your games are unbalanced towards scum?  You claim to want scumhunting and activity, yet actively punish players who perform such activity.  In Shakespeare, I had a case built against me because I was active, yet did not enough.  In this game, I've had a case built against me because I was active, and voted too much.  The message I'm receiving is "if you want to be not seen as scummy, then don't be too active".  And you wonder why your games are unbalanced when you are sending messages like that.

It's frustrating.

I get what you are saying here. But there is a flaw to your argument... and it is thus.... in the game that Galz is talking about he and eHal were the major contributors, the major case builders and the pushers of the game. And they did get flak for it, but ultimately didn't get lynched...

Whereas in this game, what I am saying about you isn't that you are one of the major contributors and major case builders and pushers of the game (and thus scummy for it). No what I am saying is that you are not a major case builder, if I can be a little egotistical that would be me, yuma who has been the major case builder... Because in this game I have built up the case on chairs, on mail-mi, on you and started to do so on Robz. Whereas when you have commented it has been afterwards and joining. That is what is suspicious, that you are joining onto wagons (the second in line) almost everytime after I or someone else builds up the case.

Yes you are doing some work yourself... you wrote up some thoughts on both chairs and mail-mi, but again, that was after someone else did so, and just writing up some thoughts isn't enough to not be scummy, because everyone knows that voting w/o reason is scummy... so you as scum, aren't going to just vote for someone for no reason.

My whole point... in the post I quote you are trying to compare yourself to Galz and eHal. But that isn't an apt comparison and as such we can't really take what is being said there and apply it to yourself. If the case was on me, the main pusher and creator of wagons, then I think it would be a different story, but maybe that is just because I am an egoist.

You certainly can apply to points about lurkers and penalizing "trying too hard" but at this point I don't think you are trying to hard. Like I said before you are right where I expect mafia to be... middle of the pack, playing the game, playing decently well, not making waves, not lurking, but certainly not leading. Hence my vote.

[spiritbears]

That's a bit much Yuma.  Surely you can see how that would rub some of us the wrong way?

[yuma]

Yuma:  I don't see why you see a trend in me that you don't see in Robz.  Both Robz and I voted for mcmc, for the exact same reason, one post after the other.

I voted for mail-mi after you had, and Robz voted for myself after you had.

I voted for Chairs after Robz had, but Robz hadn't voted until I had applied some pressure on him and made it clear that I was suspicious of what he was saying.  I guess it's important that Robz voted before I did, but I think you're incorrect in saying that there's a trend for me where there isn't for Robz.  We're both acting in a similar way.

Which makes me suspicious of Robz for finding me suspicious for something he himself is doing.  Hm.

Now to come back to this question. Let's make a timeline so I can get everything straight in my head eh?

So the people in question here are nkiribit and robz in relation to mcmc, chairs and mail-mi.

Mcmc:
Lio - votes for mcmc: but not for the VT claim, but rather for some inconstancies in his post.

NK - votes for mcmc, for the VT claim

Robz - votes for mcmc for the VT claim (notes that he never really thought mcmc was claiming, but wanted reactions)

Point 1 - so in this scenario, nkiribit is second in line voting, but first in line for the reason why, whereas Robz is the second in line for the reason, but third in line for voting.

chairs:

yuma - points out some suspicious behavior by chairs and mail-mi in the same post (I vote mail-mi)

Robz - votes chairs based off his reaction to mcmc claiming VT

spiritbears - votes chairs

nkiribit - semi-defends chairs, and semi-defends mail-mi

nkiribt - finds a slightly scummy post by chairs

nkiribit - now a little more suspicious of chairs, might vote, but the case might be "too easy"

nkiribit - votes chairs (third in line here)

point 2 - in this scenario robz is the first vote, where as nkirbit is the third vote and a kinda slowly easing into voting.

mail-mi:

yuma - makes a case on mail-mi (votes, see above timeline wise)

lio - (after everything is done with chairs) also votes mail-mi

Robz - says my case on mail-mi has some merit, but doens't vote

nkiribit - performs a reread on mail-mi, finds some scummy stuff, doesn't change vote

nkiribit - votes mail-mi

Point 3 - in this scenario, nkirbit is again the third vote and again slowly eases into it

From there the nkiribt case is made by me (again) and it takes off a bit.

So I can see why you might think the comparision between you and robz is there, but I think what I am accusing you of doing is much less pronounced in robz than it is in you (i'll admit it is there) but to a lesser extent.

[Voltaire]

Yuma has me kinda sorta seeing the nkirbit case again. Otherwise, nothing has really changed for me in these past few pages.

[yuma]

That's a bit much Yuma.  Surely you can see how that would rub some of us the wrong way?

absolutely, but that wasn't my intent despite knowing that it might, because I feel that my point is still correct. That the comparison that nkiribt is trying to make isn't a completely accurate one, and from my very biased and egotistical point of view the comparison would be better with me... (people can disagree, and that is fine, but the point wasn't so much to pat myself on the back and say "you are doing such a good job yuma! You are the best!" But to rather show that his argument was flawed and I am just using my own play as an example (again from a very biased perspective).

I certainly don't intend to demean anyone else's play or style or anything. Not everyone plays the same way. That is a good thing. And not everyone has the same amount of time to play (again a good thing). But my play style is to play in such a way that I have a leading voice and that I express my opinions forcefully and loudly... because that is how I enjoy this game and also because I think it is ultimately good for the town that I am a part of (unless I am mafia then it is good for my mafia team)

Ultimately, sorry if I offended

[spiritbears]

Your timeline Yuma is much more helpful. I see both nk and robz as conning off bad from it...I'm reconsidering nk. Robz I still see as opportunistic scum.

[yuma]

Your timeline Yuma is much more helpful. I see both nk and robz as conning off bad from it...I'm reconsidering nk. Robz I still see as opportunistic scum.

Yes I thought it might be helpful to put things into context. I do agree that Robz has some of the traits that I see in nkribit, but I think my belief is that nkirbit is even more so, whereas Robz I think could be considered more... not coincidental, but... I can't think of the word... more circumstantial? (that isn't the word either, but I can't remember what it is... ugh... it has been far too long since my last humanities class...)

[chairs]

Your timeline Yuma is much more helpful. I see both nk and robz as conning off bad from it...I'm reconsidering nk. Robz I still see as opportunistic scum.

Yes I thought it might be helpful to put things into context. I do agree that Robz has some of the traits that I see in nkribit, but I think my belief is that nkirbit is even more so, whereas Robz I think could be considered more... not coincidental, but... I can't think of the word... more circumstantial? (that isn't the word either, but I can't remember what it is... ugh... it has been far too long since my last humanities class...)

circumspect?

Also, yuma, thank you for the post on nkirbit.  You make a very interesting and fairly compelling argument.  I'm not sold on switching my vote, but you've given me something to think about for sure.

[spiritbears]

Yes it is compelling. However i do know timelines can be manipulated to make someone look scummier the. Theyaactually are...so I want to see s reaction from nk before I change anything...

[nkirbit]

I don't have anything new to say.

[nkirbit]

Part of my suspicion on nkirbit is that he IS playing well. He's handling pressure well, not panicking, etc. And I know he's relatively knew but I think he has the makings of a great player. So I'm looking for some decent newbie scum play from him, and I think I may be seeing it.

This is frustrating, though.  Apparently I should been playing scummier, and I wouldn't have been seen as scummy.

[spiritbears]

I don't have anything new to say.

Dang.  I really dislike this...you really just don't seem too I interested in defending  yourself   
vote nk

[Voltaire]

Part of my suspicion on nkirbit is that he IS playing well. He's handling pressure well, not panicking, etc. And I know he's relatively knew but I think he has the makings of a great player. So I'm looking for some decent newbie scum play from him, and I think I may be seeing it.

This is frustrating, though.  Apparently I should been playing scummier, and I wouldn't have been seen as scummy.

I think the problem is that our collective meta of "scummy" and "townie" is wrong.

[nkirbit]

No, I don't.  You all seem to have made your conclusion.  You seem downright convinced that you should be doing something other than lynching scummy players.

i wish you would stop overthinking and just lynch the players who have been scummy D1, but whatever.

[nkirbit]

Part of my suspicion on nkirbit is that he IS playing well. He's handling pressure well, not panicking, etc. And I know he's relatively knew but I think he has the makings of a great player. So I'm looking for some decent newbie scum play from him, and I think I may be seeing it.

This is frustrating, though.  Apparently I should been playing scummier, and I wouldn't have been seen as scummy.

I think the problem is that our collective meta of "scummy" and "townie" is wrong.

Well, all 8 players seem to think I'm scummy, so I can't disagree here.  I actually think all 8 players have said they would be okay lynching me, right?

[Voltaire]

That's L-1, everyone.

[yuma]

No, I don't.  You all seem to have made your conclusion.  You seem downright convinced that you should be doing something other than lynching scummy players.

i wish you would stop overthinking and just lynch the players who have been scummy D1, but whatever.

I admit I have some pretty major reservations. But that is kinda normal for day1. unvote for at least a bit until I get back in about 20 minutes just to stop anything crazy from happening.

[nkirbit]

I'm not going to claim and I'm not going to give you reads.  I'm beyond frustrated that I'm about to be lynched pretty much exclusively because of the fact that I gave too many reads and the wrong times.  Players like mcmc and mail-mi have contributed NOTHING.

In fact, Mail-mi has done nothing, literally every other post of his has been scummy, and no one is looking at him seriously.  Mcmc made one post, got 3 votes for it, and avoided suspicion pretty much by never posting again.

Unless you're a vet like Robz or Yuma, who are "too valuable to lynch Day1", I've been the most active player bringing forth reads, and I'm being lynched for it.  Damn right I'm going to start lurking the next game I sign up for, and it's not going to help town.

[spiritbears]

No, I don't.  You all seem to have made your conclusion.  You seem downright convinced that you should be doing something other than lynching scummy players.

i wish you would stop overthinking and just lynch the players who have been scummy D1, but whatever.

Dude, I ha e been on your side and defended you up to this point...this just isn't fair or right. This reads like resigned caught scum. 

[shraeye]

Vote Count 1.8

mail-mi (1): nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
nkirbit (3): mail-mi, Robz888, spiritbears

Not voting: mcmcsalot, Voltaire, liopoil, yuma

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

[spiritbears]

I'm not going to claim and I'm not going to give you reads.  I'm beyond frustrated that I'm about to be lynched pretty much exclusively because of the fact that I gave too many reads and the wrong times.  Players like mcmc and mail-mi have contributed NOTHING.

In fact, Mail-mi has done nothing, literally every other post of his has been scummy, and no one is looking at him seriously.  Mcmc made one post, got 3 votes for it, and avoided suspicion pretty much by never posting again.

Unless you're a vet like Robz or Yuma, who are "too valuable to lynch Day1", I've been the most active player bringing forth reads, and I'm being lynched for it.  Damn right I'm going to start lurking the next game I sign up for, and it's not going to help town.

Now this is more like it.  And yumas unvote just looks bad to me...like he had to be the one conteolling the action.

[Voltaire]

Well, all 8 players seem to think I'm scummy, so I can't disagree here.  I actually think all 8 players have said they would be okay lynching me, right?

Unofficially:

nkirbit (4): mail-mi, yuma, Robz888, spiritbears

I've stated willingness before (though I'm right now backpedaling 100% on an nkirbit lynch based on this recent string of events, this is much too supported to be scum, correct?). That's 5. Then there's:

lio

I see the Nkirbit case and could very well vote for him.

So that's 6.

mcmc

lol but really I like robz case on chairs and yumas case on nk, I'm thinking they are town and are making some good cases.

So that's 7.

chairs

Also, yuma, thank you for the post on nkirbit.  You make a very interesting and fairly compelling argument.  I'm not sold on switching my vote, but you've given me something to think about for sure.

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

PPE: lots of posts.

[nkirbit]

Here's mail-mi's interactions with me this game.

1. I haven't noticed nkirbit much this game, I'll re-read him.
2. Didn't find anything, but I still find him scummy for lurking
3. I'll vote nkirbit, no new info
(Yuma, robz, Voltaire vote nkirbit for completely unrelated reasons)
4. I like the new reasons on nkirbit, I'll keep my vote there.

Is the fact the he singled out a player for a reread, found nothing, voted him anyway, then sheeped another case on that player just a coincidence?  I don't think so.

I don't understand how there's a player doing stuff like this in the game, and one player (Robz) has looked at it and yeah "wow, yeah, that is scummy" and no one else has acknowledged it.  I know mail-mi comes off scummy even as town guys, but this is sooo scummy.

[spiritbears]

Well, all 8 players seem to think I'm scummy, so I can't disagree here.  I actually think all 8 players have said they would be okay lynching me, right?

Unofficially:

nkirbit (4): mail-mi, yuma, Robz888, spiritbears

I've stated willingness before (though I'm right now backpedaling 100% on an nkirbit lynch based on this recent string of events, this is much too supported to be scum, correct?). That's 5. Then there's:

lio

I see the Nkirbit case and could very well vote for him.

So that's 6.

mcmc

lol but really I like robz case on chairs and yumas case on nk, I'm thinking they are town and are making some good cases.

So that's 7.

chairs

Also, yuma, thank you for the post on nkirbit.  You make a very interesting and fairly compelling argument.  I'm not sold on switching my vote, but you've given me something to think about for sure.

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

PPE: lots of posts.

I said this earlier and was shouted down...but I'm with you on this volt
vote yumas

[nkirbit]

I need to think about Yuma.  I'm not sure yet.

[liopoil]

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

PPE: lots of posts.

That's nonsense!! there's no way that nkirbit's partner should he be scum is going to say that he isn't going to vote for nkirbit. Infact, what I said makes sense. If nkirbit is scum, from a neutral perspective, I could very well be his partner. You absolutely cannot declare it a wagon on a townie because of that.

that said, the case on nkirbit is mainly that he supported all the wagons at weird timings. That's not enough for me. I actually find Yuma suspicious for doing a similar thing if I remember correctly. He has seemed to be the starter of many wagons, mail-mi, nkirbit come to mind at first.

I also really don't like spiritbears voting for nkirbit at all, based on his previous stances.

So I think spiritbears and Yuma are my top two "people to look at" right now.

[Voltaire]

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

That's nonsense!! there's no way that nkirbit's partner should he be scum is going to say that he isn't going to vote for nkirbit. Infact, what I said makes sense. If nkirbit is scum, from a neutral perspective, I could very well be his partner. You absolutely cannot declare it a wagon on a townie because of that.

Well, yes. That's why I'll FoS: chairs, mcmc, and lio for saying it but not voting it (perhaps hoping that I'd hammer).

I had a post with this FoS written, then decided it went without saying, then saw your post, then decided to say it.

[liopoil]

wait, why is that suspicious? that's only if he's scum, which you think he isn't...

[Voltaire]

wait, why is that suspicious? that's only if he's scum, which you think he isn't...

Do I have everything backwards? There's a chance I have everything backwards.

So how do you feel about everyone being willing to vote nkirbit then (and their relative intensities)? What's your read on nkirbit now?

[liopoil]

I don't think everyone being willing to lynch nkirbit means that nkirbit is town. however, I think the case is weaker than some other things we have, and nkirbit's reaction seems genuine. That's why I'm leaning town on him.

[spiritbears]

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my Yuma ngest read.

PPE: lots of posts.

That's nonsense!! there's no way that nkirbit's partner should he be scum is going to say that he isn't going to vote for nkirbit. Infact, what I said makes sense. If nkirbit is scum, from a neutral perspective, I could very well be his partner. You absolutely cannot declare it a wagon on a townie because of that.

that said, the case on nkirbit is mainly that he supported all the wagons at weird timings. That's not enough for me. I actually find Yuma suspicious for doing a similar thing if I remember correctly. He has seemed to be the starter of many wagons, mail-mi, nkirbit come to mind at first.

I also really don't like spiritbears voting for nkirbit at all, based on his previous stances.

So I think spiritbears and Yuma are my top two "people to look at" right now.

Yes. I probsbly deserve that.  I was swayed by yumas timeline and a seeming lack of defense from nk.
But I did note whst was wrong with yumas unvote
And yes my view of nk has not been consistent. I have probably stood up for him more than Anyone. If he flips scum I'm sure it will hurt me.  But I have also been pretty consistently on yumas case.  Volts post made me take notice of just how big the wagon actually was....with yumabeing primarily responsible. If nk flips scum he deserves big credit. But if nk flips town...well you know how I feel about that already

[Voltaire]

I don't think everyone being willing to lynch nkirbit means that nkirbit is town. however, I think the case is weaker than some other things we have, and nkirbit's reaction seems genuine. That's why I'm leaning town on him.

Well, yes, leaning. I'm leaning town on nkirbit, if you're easier with me using that phrase. Everything is relative to D1. I'm also leaning town on mcmc, but the more he doesn't post the weaker that read gets (obviously).

[liopoil]

Oh, I have no problem with what terms of certainty you use. I don't think that everyone not being opposed (not quite true ; spiritbears), is a sign that nkirbit is town at all. See scum!kooshie getting lynched D1 of bankers. Nobody opposed her lynch, and 2 of her 3 buddies were on the wagon. I think that's null.

[Voltaire]

Oh, I have no problem with what terms of certainty you use. I don't think that everyone not being opposed (not quite true ; spiritbears), is a sign that nkirbit is town at all. See scum!kooshie getting lynched D1 of bankers. Nobody opposed her lynch, and 2 of her 3 buddies were on the wagon. I think that's null.

Isn't that bad play by scum then? I didn't follow that game, but I did read the ending out of curiosity due to all the referencing it got (and here they are again).

[yuma]

Oh, I have no problem with what terms of certainty you use. I don't think that everyone not being opposed (not quite true ; spiritbears), is a sign that nkirbit is town at all. See scum!kooshie getting lynched D1 of bankers. Nobody opposed her lynch, and 2 of her 3 buddies were on the wagon. I think that's null.

I disagree. Bankers was a large game. Bussing was possible there. This is a 9 player game with 2 scum. Bussing day1 just isn't a very good idea. Because then you are just one lynch away from a loss and have to get all the way to 2 town and 1 scum day3 and mislynch there to win. Bussing in a 9 player game is just bad, bad, bad day1.

So, yes this has become one of my biggest reservations regarding nkirbit.

And sb: yes, you are right that I want to be in control. I am the only person I can trust in this game thus far and I want to be in as much control as I want... I don't know why that makes me scummy though? Because to me... I want to be in control regardless of my alignment...

[yuma]

@ volt and sb...

your votes on me eariler were quite a while ago. Do you have anything to add to them after all of this text and time has passed or are they completely predicated on the same stuff as before. Either way can you remind me of what your votes are actually about?

[yuma]

@ volt and sb...

your votes on me eariler were quite a while ago. Do you have anything to add to them after all of this text and time has passed or are they completely predicated on the same stuff as before. Either way can you remind me of what your votes are actually about?

If I can ask, I would prefer spiritbears to answer this question first.

[Voltaire]

@ volt and sb...

your votes on me eariler were quite a while ago. Do you have anything to add to them after all of this text and time has passed or are they completely predicated on the same stuff as before. Either way can you remind me of what your votes are actually about?

Scum doesn't want to be seen as tunneling a townie. So scum tests the waters to see who they can get the town to mislynch. I feel you've been doing this. I've got at least one, if not more posts about this. See them before.

And based on my town read on nkirbit now, I see you as having successfully driven a wagon on a townie. It's not a slam-dunk case! But it's my strongest read, and so I want my vote there. I think sb has a problem with your unvote - I don't.

If I can ask, I would prefer spiritbears to answer this question first.

Until I think you're town, I won't follow-the-leader unless I see a darn good reason to. And I think you'd agree were you in my shoes.

I am the only person I can trust in this game thus far and I want to be in as much control as I want

[yuma]

@ volt and sb...

your votes on me eariler were quite a while ago. Do you have anything to add to them after all of this text and time has passed or are they completely predicated on the same stuff as before. Either way can you remind me of what your votes are actually about?

Scum doesn't want to be seen as tunneling a townie. So scum tests the waters to see who they can get the town to mislynch. I feel you've been doing this. I've got at least one, if not more posts about this. See them before.

And based on my town read on nkirbit now, I see you as having successfully driven a wagon on a townie. It's not a slam-dunk case! But it's my strongest read, and so I want my vote there. I think sb has a problem with your unvote - I don't.

If I can ask, I would prefer spiritbears to answer this question first.

Until I think you're town, I won't follow-the-leader unless I see a darn good reason to. And I think you'd agree were you in my shoes.

I am the only person I can trust in this game thus far and I want to be in as much control as I want

well I wanted sb to go first because from my memory he has twice now said... "good point voltaire" I agree adn then voted for me. I wanted to hear his logic first before you presented your case... but o well.

[Voltaire]

wait, why is that suspicious? that's only if he's scum, which you think he isn't...

Do I have everything backwards? There's a chance I have everything backwards.

OK, I think I finally figured out what I was trying to say!

"Traditional" scum placement on a D1 town wagon is 1 on, 1 off, right? So assuming 1 scum is already on the wagon, FoS those three for setting themselves up to be off-wagon if needed.

...that may not actually make sense. But it is what was in my head when I replied to your post.

[Voltaire]

You know what? unvote. I want to do a re-read of yuma so I don't feel like I'm recycling (reading him in ZM14 too, where I know he was town and chewed through mafia [though that game is obviously different with high odds of success and iffy scum play] so I have something to compare). And hopefully by that time more people have weighed in on the nkirbit circumstances.

[Voltaire]

(reading him in ZM14 too, where I know he was town and chewed through mafia [though that game is obviously different with high odds of success and iffy scum play] so I have something to compare)

Because if townYuma is as awesome as everyone says, I want to listen to townYuma! Just going to start with a Yuma I know is town...

[chairs]

(reading him in ZM14 too, where I know he was town and chewed through mafia [though that game is obviously different with high odds of success and iffy scum play] so I have something to compare)

Because if townYuma is as awesome as everyone says, I want to listen to townYuma! Just going to start with a Yuma I know is town...

I'd never thought to go back to games people had previously played to try to get a psych read on them.  I like this idea a lot!

[nkirbit]

After thinking about it, I would be absolutely opposed to lynching Yuma today.  We can't lynch the strongest voices.  If there are scum, we can hopefully have wagon analysis later to catch them, but I would much, much rather lynch a lurker today than someone who has been present unless someone makes a huge slip-up.

At this point, I have an advantage that the rest of you do not have:  I am able to do wagon analysis on a confirmed town member and see what I come up with.  The rest of you can do analysis, but you can't be sure that it's on a town member, but if you think I'm town, it's a good place to start looking.  I'm going to start looking in the near-future, and will be back at some point with what I find.

[Robz888]

Not sure what to make of this "let's buddy yuma to death!" thing everyone is doing, except note it.

[mcmcsalot]

I just haven't been around, vote: nrkbit I actually think 8 people stating votes and not doing it makes him way more likely to be scum. Scum would have jumped on it. Also volt(I think it was volt) just have town reads and fos on the same people very close I a row. Super scummy

[liopoil]

I hate this buddy yuma to death thing.

nkirbit, playing like that makes it super-easy for scum. All they have to do is talk a lot and they don't get lynched! We absolutely must consider lynching Yuma.

[nkirbit]

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

Mail-Mi made this post about Mcmc after three people, (Lio, myself, and Robz, in that order) had voted for mcmc.

Am i still on Nk? If I am, I like yuma's case and would like to keep my vote there.

Mail-Mi made this post about me when three people (Himself, Yuma, Robz) had votes on me, and a fourth (Voltaire) had voted and unvoted because he didn't want to put me at L-1 so early.

In both cases, mail-mi thought that the person had done something suspicious.  In both cases, three other players had in quick succession agreed and either voted or announced their intention to vote.  Yet, mail-mi had wildly different reactions.  Why the inconsistency?

[Voltaire]

I hate this buddy yuma to death thing.

It's...not a thing? Who the hell is buddying with yuma? Also after my re-read I'm back to vote: yuma. Same reasons as before, just more certain. Didn't see anything to change my mind. The unvote was for an abundance of caution.

Some very weird posts lately.

[nkirbit]

Well, Lio, maybe.  And like I said, if Yuma (or any other player) who were active were to do anything obviously scummy, I would be happy to vote for them.

For me, the Yuma case just seems to be "Geez, he's really hard to read, and I can't at all be sure if he's scum or town, so he could easily be scum!"  Well, yeah, sure, but I don't want to vote for him for that reason when I think we can do better.

[Voltaire]

Well, Lio, maybe.  And like I said, if Yuma (or any other player) who were active were to do anything obviously scummy, I would be happy to vote for them.

For me, the Yuma case just seems to be "Geez, he's really hard to read, and I can't at all be sure if he's scum or town, so he could easily be scum!"  Well, yeah, sure, but I don't want to vote for him for that reason when I think we can do better.

That. Is. Not. My. Reason. That is yuma's scummy spin of my reason. Please go back and re-read. Yuma, in my opinion, is subtly offering up reasons to start wagons to see if they catch on. That's scummy, and the simplest reason for my vote.

I am not liking this distortion of my case on yuma at all.

[Robz888]

I just haven't been around, vote: nrkbit I actually think 8 people stating votes and not doing it makes him way more likely to be scum. Scum would have jumped on it. Also volt(I think it was volt) just have town reads and fos on the same people very close I a row. Super scummy

Yes. Yes.

[mcmcsalot]

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

That's nonsense!! there's no way that nkirbit's partner should he be scum is going to say that he isn't going to vote for nkirbit. Infact, what I said makes sense. If nkirbit is scum, from a neutral perspective, I could very well be his partner. You absolutely cannot declare it a wagon on a townie because of that.

Well, yes. That's why I'll FoS: chairs, mcmc, and lio for saying it but not voting it (perhaps hoping that I'd hammer).

I had a post with this FoS written, then decided it went without saying, then saw your post, then decided to say it.

Yup here's the post, why the town read on me?

[nkirbit]

Voltaire, would you mind recapping your case for me then?  I guess I just don't understand what it is at this point, then.

[Voltaire]

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

That's nonsense!! there's no way that nkirbit's partner should he be scum is going to say that he isn't going to vote for nkirbit. Infact, what I said makes sense. If nkirbit is scum, from a neutral perspective, I could very well be his partner. You absolutely cannot declare it a wagon on a townie because of that.

Well, yes. That's why I'll FoS: chairs, mcmc, and lio for saying it but not voting it (perhaps hoping that I'd hammer).

I had a post with this FoS written, then decided it went without saying, then saw your post, then decided to say it.

Yup here's the post, why the town read on me?

It was entirely based on your VT claim/not JK claim. Then more things happened. Then I had a different read on you. But still town. Just less so.

[Voltaire]

Voltaire, would you mind recapping your case for me then?  I guess I just don't understand what it is at this point, then.

Fine. Give me a bit if you want quotes.

[chairs]

FWIW, I am heading out of town tomorrow, so I will be MIA for quite a while following my departure from work today (probably won't get to post for at least 24 hours from this post, other than posts I make from now til end of workday).  Once I get into Chicago and settled, I'll try to find a way to get online and post.

[liopoil]

OK, I think I finally figured out what I was trying to say!

"Traditional" scum placement on a D1 town wagon is 1 on, 1 off, right? So assuming 1 scum is already on the wagon, FoS those three for setting themselves up to be off-wagon if needed.

...that may not actually make sense. But it is what was in my head when I replied to your post.

"traditional" maybe, but really, scum can do whatever they want.

I hate this buddy yuma to death thing.

It's...not a thing? Who the hell is buddying with yuma?

dunno, was responding to robz's post about buddying Yuma. I personally haven't noticed it, but I do this Yuma gets to much credit for big posts and stuff.

I too am curious to see what you have on yuma.

ugh, I'm having second thoughts on nkirbit. I just don't know.

[Voltaire]

Alright, My Case on Yuma. Which isn't a slam dunk, and to which I am not married. But clarification has been requested.

Note that I shortened some quotes with the missing stuff indicated by [stuff] or [some sort of super-short summary of what's missing]. I did this for readability. Look at the original quote if you think the missing stuff is relevant.

I get robz's frustration and I won't criticize it because I know how much he likes being mafia. However... I do wonder if it is possible that he is "playing it up" a bit. That is.... I wonder if he is mafia again and is faking the frustration and anger of no longer being mafia... Obviously not anything concrete because we don't know his current alignment, but his reaction to all of this does make me wonder...

PPE: New postz.
chairs.... his vote is the most suspicious.

This is why he thinks mcmc is suspicious:

First off: mcmcsalot seems to be making a VT claim in what I had quoted; as there's no reason to make a VT claim ever, it seems reasonable to believe that he is more likely than not scum.  As this is Day 1, my normal strategy (with folks that I play with IRL) is to head towards a no-lynch, but as I've been advised this is a terrible idea in practice by folks who have played this game more often than myself, I felt that as the one who the argument could be made most strongly for, he'd have my vote.  That being said, forum Mafia's a bit of a different beast than I'm used to (we're making decisions in days, rather than minutes) so I can see the justification/argument made for an Unvote until we can attempt to gather more evidence.

Lots of text... He starts off talking about mcmc, but doens't expalin why it makes him more likely to be scum but in the end says very little of the paragraph about mcmc.  I have done this before as mafia. Where I start out with a read and end up moving the topic of conversation away from that read within the paragraph... why? Because I actually don't have anything there and it is hard to make stuff up... so I just talk and talk and hope that no one notices that I am no longer talking about mcmc anymore...

and then there is this:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

so right now I am most suspicious of mail-mi and chairs...

I'll vote for either... vote: mail-mi

yuma: first to raise Robz suspicion, first to raise chairs suspicion (99% sure here - correct me if I'm wrong) Robz and sb vote chairs immediately.

I state my first scum read on yuma. Then this happens:

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

So you are suspicious of me for doing the exact same thing you are doing here? Being suspicious and not voting? Except for one crucial detail... I am voting. I am voting for mail-mi. Who I think is more likely to be scummy at this juncture than Robz--I didn't push for his wagon at all, I asked what people thought about his reaction to the game starting--and just as scummy as chairs, except that I have had experience with town and scum mail-mi and know him a bit better and don't know chairs at all...

Whereas you aren't voting for anyone... so who is scummy for this alleged scummy behavior? You or me? In this context I would in fact say it is you... but I don't think it is scummy behavior. I think it is normal town behavior to probe and try and create conversation... so no FOS but shame: voltaire for trying to inhibit scum hunting.

PPE: although now I see that you have voted... but my point still stands above.

Lots more stuff happens. Yuma attempts to convince everyone of his case on mail-mi.

Has a weird read about mcmc, I don't remember mcmc being clumsy in this game...

Actually I agree that mcmc has been clumsy, he sorta-claimed VT, then clarified he was claiming not-JK.

Though I do agree mail-mi has been meh overall. He's another wagon I don't like at this point.

This is strange. That is all.

(also it is worth noting that I think yuma's case on mail-mi is weak, so that's 3 total from my point of view)

is it weird that I am becoming more suspicious of the two players who are on the mail-mi wagon with me? (lio and nkirbit)

[yuma explains]

Anyone up for a random lynch? We haven't tried that in ages...

Yuma backs off mail-mi a bit, and brings up random lynch. Seriously. No-one pointed this out at the time. Mega-awful-super-terrible anti-town play.

nkirbit:

he voted for mcmc pretty opportunistically for the VT claim.

Unvoted when mcmc got to L-1 and never really looked back at it.

He has slowly eased into the mail-mi vote starting off with a "I am not sure about this yuma..." to questioning mail-mi and then a "mail-mi has been kinda scummy" to an actual vote.

He has also been suspicious of chairs. Right now if this were a bastard game and everyone were town, I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches. However, like I said before I don't know their alignments and if they actually are "easy mislynches" but it does make me more wary of them.

He has been open with his reads. yuma and sb town, voltaire, mcmc (now he is a null read!) and lio null.

[stuff about lio]

Of the two I find nkirbit the scummier. He is in a position where I would expect scum to be, kinda in the middle, not lurking not being extremely vocal. He has been on the three main "easy" wagons in mcmc, chairs and mail-mi but has stayed away from the more controversial votes (yuma, robz). I still think mail-mi is suspicious, but I am going to try out a vote: nkirbit

And the nkirbit case, which is the biggest most recent development.

Also this

I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches.

Yet mail-mi was your vote - was it who joined that wagon that had you realize your case on mail-mi was bad? What does that say about your initial reasons?

mcmc, please do post soon (I know it's Tuesday, yadayadayada). You're the only one I'm treating as obvtown for now, so I'd like to know where you stand.

I don't think my case on mail-mi was necessarily bad. It is just that I don't know if mail-mi is actually scum or just scummy. And I won't "know" until he flips, obviously, but even then I am not confident in my case in the way I am sometimes more confident. This lack of confidence makes me look around and wonder if he is actually scum...

if I were to quote a part of my post that says what I am really thinking it wouldn't be what you quoted it would be

Right now if this were a bastard game and everyone were town, I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches. However, like I said before I don't know their alignments and if they actually are "easy mislynches" but it does make me more wary of them.

Obviously this isn't a bastard game and everyone isn't town. But right now the little bit of scumminess I see in mail-mi isn't as striking to me as nkirbits being on the three "easy" lynches right now.

No, I don't.  You all seem to have made your conclusion.  You seem downright convinced that you should be doing something other than lynching scummy players.

i wish you would stop overthinking and just lynch the players who have been scummy D1, but whatever.

I admit I have some pretty major reservations. But that is kinda normal for day1. unvote for at least a bit until I get back in about 20 minutes just to stop anything crazy from happening.

Reservations about nkirbit. Major ones. Whurhgt?

So this post is a mess. That's why I don't like mega-quote posts. This might actually be the first one I've ever made in a mafia game, ever.

tl;dr I had a case-ish against yuma for offering up robz/chairs while voting mail-mi, he backs off mail-mi/onto nkirbit, has major reservations about nkirbit.

There's no smoking gun here. Just enough for my vote.

I do not like the weird posts we've gotten recently from mcmc/Robz/lio.

[Voltaire]

OK, I think I finally figured out what I was trying to say!

"Traditional" scum placement on a D1 town wagon is 1 on, 1 off, right? So assuming 1 scum is already on the wagon, FoS those three for setting themselves up to be off-wagon if needed.

...that may not actually make sense. But it is what was in my head when I replied to your post.

"traditional" maybe, but really, scum can do whatever they want.

Yup yup. Hence FoS, that is all, moving on, etc.

[yuma]

response to voltaire... not including quotes cause hard to read etc...

- I was the first to raise suspicion of Robz. I see no reason to find suspicion here for pointing out that Robz could be overexaggerating his emotions. None. I didn't vote, i just noted it and said it was something to consider. And still a possibility I think.

 - I was also the first to raise suspicion on chairs. But I didn't vote there. I voted for mail-mi. Why? Because I found his actions to be scummier... maybe you want me to vote for people I don't find scummy a la you:

And I myself have an established meta of voting for my top town reads (well, it's more complicated than that, but that's the best summary) under the theory that scum know playing scummy is obvscum so they play towny. That's why I've landed on you so far.

which I honestly think is the worst strategy you could ever have. Just WIFOM yourself until you get dizzy...

 - I am not sure what your point is about my response... all you say is "this happens." So what? What does that signify. I think my response was perfectly legitimate.

 - And again I acknowledge the case on mail-mi is weak. I have said this before and I will say it again. Early day1 cases are always weak, and not always do they serve the ultimate purpose of finding scum. Sometimes someone gets really lucky and hits on scum right off the bat. But you can't tell until you flesh it out and try it out and see what other people think. And as the mail-mi case fleshed out, I saw that it was weak and going to stay weak and saw that there was a better case on nkiribt.

 - Ummm. Random lynch. Obv joke... because what do I say in the part above it... "I'll take a look at nkirbit and lio" That was my real suggestion, not the random lynch. Thanks for snipping the real content and leaving the joke...

 - and agian, why am I backing off mail-mi... again do you want me to stay on a "weak case" (your words here) that has stagnated and died? Yeah, that sounds like a great play for town...

- nkribit case has merit and I still think it does. I have reservations. Obviously I have reservations! It is flipping day1! Only twice in my entire mafia career have I ever been certain day1 about a lynch. Only twice! Of course I am going to have bloody reservations, especially when the entire town has either voted or said they were willing to vote. And you better believe I will unvote if I have those reservations and people have said they are willing to vote before I think we have fleshed out this conversation!

Goodness, you unvoted me when I had 2 votes remember?

The unvote was for an abundance of caution.

So it is only scummy when I am cautious, but when you do it, it isn't?

You say there is no smoking gun here. There isn't, but there isn't even a gun. All you do is post a bunch of quotes and say I am voting, but you dont' explain why it is scummy. You just post quotes and leave it at that. Because what I am doing isn't scummy. What I am doing is scum hunting and trying to find a lynch that is correct. I think we are all just so used to town being bullheaded and stubborn in being "100% certain" that they have found mafia that we don't know what to do when we see someone who actually is uncertain and is trying to find it, but willing to make mistakes and "weak" cases along the way to get there...

Anyways... mcmc brings up a good point in that people have said they would vote nkirbit, but didn't. This is very true. words are wind. actions speak volumes. I still think he is the best lynch option. Far superior to me and I don't see anyone else at the moment that is any better. And his buddying to me does seem like an attempt to sway me away from revoting him.

vote: nkirbit that is L-1.

[Voltaire]

I think we are all just so used to town being bullheaded and stubborn in being "100% certain" that they have found mafia that we don't know what to do when we see someone who actually is uncertain and is trying to find it, but willing to make mistakes and "weak" cases along the way to get there...

With these sort of statements, all I read is you stating you're a great player, as both town and scum, so we should just listen to you and follow your lead and you're in control. Oh, and never mind if maybe you're scum, just follow along.

Which doesn't make you scum, it just makes you very annoying to play with.

[Voltaire]

And we'll see what happens with nkirbit. I'm not convinced and won't be re-voting at this point.

[nkirbit]

I could hardly vote yuma after what I said in #475.  It would be wildly inconsistent, and the last thing I want to do when I'm under the gun is be inconsistent.

That being said, I don't see anything in Voltaire's case.  Yeah, it could be scum!yuma doing these things, and it would make sense, but town!Yuma doing these things makes sense as well!  The fact that both make sense isn't a reason for me to believe one narrative over the other!

Mail-Mi is still the best lynch, in my opinion.  I've continually pointed out scummy things about his actions this game, have re-read him, and still think he's by a decent amount the scummiest player.  My only reservation about the case is that it's mail-mi, and not someone else, but I still think he's scummy.

[nkirbit]

Basically, Voltaire, if you start with the assumption Yuma=Scum, and read things the way you're presenting them, they do make sense.  But if I start with the assumption Yuma=town and read things, they make just as much sense.  And I don't have a good reason to start with the assumption Yuma=scum.

The random voting thing was the oddest thing there, but I'm not convinced it's anything.  Why did you bring that up, Yuma?

[Voltaire]

Basically, Voltaire, if you start with the assumption Yuma=Scum, and read things the way you're presenting them, they do make sense.  But if I start with the assumption Yuma=town and read things, they make just as much sense.  And I don't have a good reason to start with the assumption Yuma=scum.

The random voting thing was the oddest thing there, but I'm not convinced it's anything.  Why did you bring that up, Yuma?

He now claims it was a joke. I see absolutely nothing in the original context suggesting it was a joke.

If this doesn't convince anyone else that's fine, I'm not married to this. I simply haven't seen anything more compelling on anyone else.

[liopoil]

I think it was clearly a joke because why would anyone seriously suggest random lynch?

I don't know what to make of nkirbit and his wagon. I need to re-read him. I found voltaire's case somewhat lackluster. I kinda would still want lynch mail-mi or mcmc, but I'll consider nkirbit more, I've been kinda inconsistant in the thread and with myself on him, I need to figure out what I think once and for all.

[liopoil]

also, Vote count please

[Voltaire]

I think it was clearly a joke because why would anyone seriously suggest random lynch?

Only possible explanation is to see if scum bites.

[nkirbit]

lol but really I like robz case on chairs and yumas case on nk, I'm thinking they are town and are making some good cases. I noticed the thing with you and yuma and your suggestion that yuma was making the same case he did as scum, I do 100% know yuma to be a similar scum player to me(which is why I think he often catches me) and he will make the same cases as town and scum. Its something scummy he has seen and thats decent for day one.

This is mcmc when he comes back.  At this point, I'm at L-2, but all the momentum is indicating that my lynch is forthcoming.  Mcmc states that he "really likes" yuma's case on me, but doesn't vote.  Why not?

I just haven't been around, vote: nrkbit I actually think 8 people stating votes and not doing it makes him way more likely to be scum. Scum would have jumped on it. Also volt(I think it was volt) just have town reads and fos on the same people very close I a row. Super scummy

This is after some of the momentum has died on me.  At this point, he votes.

Mcmc has clearly contributed to getting a lot of the momentum back on my wagon.  In terms of wagon analysis, he's the scummiest from my point of view.  It's odd that he didn't vote earlier, and may have been because he thought there was so much momentum he could be off-wagon, but later realized that wasn't the case so pushed for it.  I'd still rather lynch mail-mi, I think, but if people aren't behind that I'd be okay with a mcmc lynch.

[Voltaire]

Mcmc has clearly contributed to getting a lot of the momentum back on my wagon.  In terms of wagon analysis, he's the scummiest from my point of view.  It's odd that he didn't vote earlier, and may have been because he thought there was so much momentum he could be off-wagon, but later realized that wasn't the case so pushed for it.  I'd still rather lynch mail-mi, I think, but if people aren't behind that I'd be okay with a mcmc lynch.

The only reason I am not voting some people at the moment is Lynch Mafia Not Scum. I totally agree that that post by mcmc was weird and scummy.

Robz has disappeared.

[nkirbit]

 - and agian, why am I backing off mail-mi... again do you want me to stay on a "weak case" (your words here) that has stagnated and died? Yeah, that sounds like a great play for town...

I think that if you were pushing for the mail-mi case, it could have happened.  I've been vocal for my support of it, and I don't think anyone has defended mail-mi.  If this is your reason for dropping that case, it's odd, I think, because there's no indication an nkirbit case would have gotten a better response than a mail-mi case.  And honestly, not expecting a case to get steam is a bad reason for not making it.  I think town should say what they think so we have the most information possible.

[spiritbears]

Sorry about not getting back on sooner yuma...know you wanted my reasoning first.

First---nk totally deserves to be lynched st this point. Imo Yuma has pushed and pushed hard a really terrible case on nk...to which nk buddies him! Is it fear of the king or what? 

And mc---thèse quickhits are scummy and weird from you

[yuma]

 - and agian, why am I backing off mail-mi... again do you want me to stay on a "weak case" (your words here) that has stagnated and died? Yeah, that sounds like a great play for town...

I think that if you were pushing for the mail-mi case, it could have happened.  I've been vocal for my support of it, and I don't think anyone has defended mail-mi.  If this is your reason for dropping that case, it's odd, I think, because there's no indication an nkirbit case would have gotten a better response than a mail-mi case.  And honestly, not expecting a case to get steam is a bad reason for not making it.  I think town should say what they think so we have the most information possible.

I think you are misunderstanding, or rather I didn't explain very well. I have said previously that with day1 cases I try to start them up and see how they go (not so much who joins it, altough a couple of additional votes does help) but rather how the person reacts and if scummy stuff continues to build up. I started the mail-mi case, some people joined and from there it was kinda null and wasn't progressing (either with the votes or with the content of the case) whereas your case... I think has been different. Not only do I think you did some scummy stuff before, I think you have done some scummy stuff afterward. So your case is still progressing and moving and moving in the direction of scum.

[spiritbears]

And, if the random lynch eas a joke why did you never say so until now...no that wad scummy
I know the pushy controlling guns is often town.  But in this case town is so damn weak...I'm pretty sure scum!Yuma is just taking advantage

[spiritbears]

(Was) and (Yuma)

[Voltaire]

I think we are all just so used to town being bullheaded and stubborn in being "100% certain" that they have found mafia that we don't know what to do when we see someone who actually is uncertain and is trying to find it, but willing to make mistakes and "weak" cases along the way to get there...

With these sort of statements, all I read is you stating you're a great player, as both town and scum, so we should just listen to you and follow your lead and you're in control. Oh, and never mind if maybe you're scum, just follow along.

Which doesn't make you scum, it just makes you very annoying to play with.

I would like to apologize for this. I feel like it came off a bit personally. If I need to make this case later, I'll be sure to phrase it much more constructively and pro-town.

[yuma]

I think we are all just so used to town being bullheaded and stubborn in being "100% certain" that they have found mafia that we don't know what to do when we see someone who actually is uncertain and is trying to find it, but willing to make mistakes and "weak" cases along the way to get there...

With these sort of statements, all I read is you stating you're a great player, as both town and scum, so we should just listen to you and follow your lead and you're in control. Oh, and never mind if maybe you're scum, just follow along.

Which doesn't make you scum, it just makes you very annoying to play with.

That isn't what I am saying. Sorry if I am annoying. But I think what you are reading and what I am saying are very different. And I am not saying am a great player, rather I think I am not a bad player. I try not to tunnel, I try not to be bull headed, I try to see both sides of the picture and allow myself to be reasonably influenced by the opinions of other.

I would love for people to listen to me. Following my lead is up to them. But if you push against me, I am going to push back and if you disagree with me I am going to instigate a dialogue to flesh that out and try and further make my points, but at the same time try and understand yours.

[nkirbit]

Sorry about not getting back on sooner yuma...know you wanted my reasoning first.

First---nk totally deserves to be lynched st this point. Imo Yuma has pushed and pushed hard a really terrible case on nk...to which nk buddies him! Is it fear of the king or what? 

And mc---thèse quickhits are scummy and weird from you

I don't fear Yuma.  I just think there are other players more likely to be scum.  Namely Mail-Mi and mcmc, and to a lesser degree, Robz.

[yuma]

I think we are all just so used to town being bullheaded and stubborn in being "100% certain" that they have found mafia that we don't know what to do when we see someone who actually is uncertain and is trying to find it, but willing to make mistakes and "weak" cases along the way to get there...

With these sort of statements, all I read is you stating you're a great player, as both town and scum, so we should just listen to you and follow your lead and you're in control. Oh, and never mind if maybe you're scum, just follow along.

Which doesn't make you scum, it just makes you very annoying to play with.

I would like to apologize for this. I feel like it came off a bit personally. If I need to make this case later, I'll be sure to phrase it much more constructively and pro-town.

no worries, I no I can be annoying to play with sometimes. I do play this game very competitively and want to win and sometimes go too far with stuff.

[yuma]

Basically, Voltaire, if you start with the assumption Yuma=Scum, and read things the way you're presenting them, they do make sense.  But if I start with the assumption Yuma=town and read things, they make just as much sense.  And I don't have a good reason to start with the assumption Yuma=scum.

The random voting thing was the oddest thing there, but I'm not convinced it's anything.  Why did you bring that up, Yuma?

He now claims it was a joke. I see absolutely nothing in the original context suggesting it was a joke.

If this doesn't convince anyone else that's fine, I'm not married to this. I simply haven't seen anything more compelling on anyone else.

how about we actually look at the original context so everyone can see and decide for themselves... eh?

Here is the quote:

is it weird that I am becoming more suspicious of the two players who are on the mail-mi wagon with me? (lio and nkirbit)

I'll answer that... no, it isn't. Because really mail-mi isn't super scummy. He has done some scummy stuff, but it is pretty slight. While I think he could be scum, this also has the markings of an easy mislynch and who wants to join onto easy mislynches? Scum. Well at least sometimes they do. other times they want to stay far away from them.

This is hard because obviously I don't know mail-mi's alignment and a lot of it is dependent on whether or not he is mafia and whether in fact he is an easy mislynch or not. Mail-mi has been lynched in 75% of the games he has been in as town. He gets lynched. But that stat alone doesn't negate that he has done something scummy.

I am going to look at lio and nkiribt, but mostly at this point I wouldn't really expect either of these players to make "scummy" plays, so I don't know if I will find anything.

I feel like robz has right now... I just don't know what to look for to find mafia in going back and rereading... That is I don't know what I am looking for until I see it... Dsell's case on me in the recent blitz game, WinterSpartan in Samurai's... And right now I haven't seen it.

Anyone up for a random lynch? We haven't tried that in ages...

the joke is at the bottom... after I express that I have a plan to look at nkirbit and lio (obviously I don't want to random lynch if I have a plan to do some good old fashioned scum hunting) and further more it is after some frustration posting. Look at the "I feel like robz" part. Because then--and now to an extent--I am frustrated. I don't know how to find mafia. I think I might have found it in nkiribit, but I am not sure.... There just isn't a golden key the unlocks the doors of scum--which is the whole point of the game I know, but it is frustrating for someone who wants to in. So after that frustartion I say "anyone up for a random lynch?" implying that this method might be better than my current scum hunting. I don't push it. I don't say anythign about it. Why? BECAUSE RANDOM LYNCHING IS A HORRIBLE IDEA AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS. Basically all I am saying is my scum hunting feels like right now as good as random.

If I were serious. I would have created one of those dumb little random lynch lists and done a dice roll and pushed people to actually vote for whomever it was.

And volt... if anyone had agreed to do it, which would have astounded me, I would have jumped all over them, because again RANDOM LYNCHING IS A HORRIBLE IDEA!

[spiritbears]

Sorry about not getting back on sooner yuma...know you wanted my reasoning first.

First---nk totally deserves to be lynched st this point. Imo Yuma has pushed and pushed hard a really terrible case on nk...to which nk buddies him! Is it fear of the king or what? 

And mc---thèse quickhits are scummy and weird from you

I don't fear Yuma.  I just think there are other players more likely to be scum.  Namely Mail-Mi and mcmc, and to a lesser degree, Robz.

Well then maybe yumas not tunneling you...but busing instead

[spiritbears]

Basically, Voltaire, if you start with the assumption Yuma=Scum, and read things the way you're presenting them, they do make sense.  But if I start with the assumption Yuma=town and read things, they make just as much sense.  And I don't have a good reason to start with the assumption Yuma=scum.

The random voting thing was the oddest thing there, but I'm not convinced it's anything.  Why did you bring that up, Yuma?

He now claims it was a joke. I see absolutely nothing in the original context suggesting it was a joke.

If this doesn't convince anyone else that's fine, I'm not married to this. I simply haven't seen anything more compelling on anyone else.

how about we actually look at the original context so everyone can see and decide for themselves... eh?

Here is the quote:

is it weird that I am becoming more suspicious of the two players who are on the mail-mi wagon with me? (lio and nkirbit)

I'll answer that... no, it isn't. Because really mail-mi isn't super scummy. He has done some scummy stuff, but it is pretty slight. While I think he could be scum, this also has the markings of an easy mislynch and who wants to join onto easy mislynches? Scum. Well at least sometimes they do. other times they want to stay far away from them.

This is hard because obviously I don't know mail-mi's alignment and a lot of it is dependent on whether or not he is mafia and whether in fact he is an easy mislynch or not. Mail-mi has been lynched in 75% of the games he has been in as town. He gets lynched. But that stat alone doesn't negate that he has done something scummy.

I am going to look at lio and nkiribt, but mostly at this point I wouldn't really expect either of these players to make "scummy" plays, so I don't know if I will find anything.

I feel like robz has right now... I just don't know what to look for to find mafia in going back and rereading... That is I don't know what I am looking for until I see it... Dsell's case on me in the recent blitz game, WinterSpartan in Samurai's... And right now I haven't seen it.

Anyone up for a random lynch? We haven't tried that in ages...

the joke is at the bottom... after I express that I have a plan to look at nkirbit and lio (obviously I don't want to random lynch if I have a plan to do some good old fashioned scum hunting) and further more it is after some frustration posting. Look at the "I feel like robz" part. Because then--and now to an extent--I am frustrated. I don't know how to find mafia. I think I might have found it in nkiribit, but I am not sure.... There just isn't a golden key the unlocks the doors of scum--which is the whole point of the game I know, but it is frustrating for someone who wants to in. So after that frustartion I say "anyone up for a random lynch?" implying that this method might be better than my current scum hunting. I don't push it. I don't say anythign about it. Why? BECAUSE RANDOM LYNCHING IS A HORRIBLE IDEA AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS. Basically all I am saying is my scum hunting feels like right now as good as random.

If I were serious. I would have created one of those dumb little random lynch lists and done a dice roll and pushed people to actually vote for whomever it was.

And volt... if anyone had agreed to do it, which would have astounded me, I would have jumped all over them, because again RANDOM LYNCHING IS A HORRIBLE IDEA!

If it wasn't a home then why the "we haven't tried that in ages".  You may not have been serious.  But it eas definitely not a joke.

[spiritbears]

And if you're so unconfident in your scumhunting why the big push to get us to all fall in line.  You're flailing yuma

[yuma]

because it is so bad that we haven't tried it in ages...

[nkirbit]

SB.. Why not a townie falsely accusing another townie?

[yuma]

And if you're so unconfident in your scumhunting why the big push to get us to all fall in line.  You're flailing yuma

then vote for me and lynch me and you will be rid of me once and for all.

[spiritbears]

SB.. Why not a townie falsely accusing another townie?

Because Yuma isn't town

[spiritbears]

It's so easy to claim you didn't mean it now Yuma. And soooo easy to say you "would have jumped" on anyone that took it up....it requires no proof or support st all on your part.  Way way too convenient

[spiritbears]

You are so blinded nk. Like I said.  I have no desire to fight against your lynch at this point.

[nkirbit]

I don't think I'm obligated to find every player who is in support of lynching me scummy.  Look, Yuma could easily be scum, and if I survive into day 2 and find a good case myself or someone presents a case that persuades me, I'll happily vote for him.  But I just don't see a compelling case at this point.

[Voltaire]

You are so blinded nk. Like I said.  I have no desire to fight against your lynch at this point.

I think you can cause his lynch. Pretty sure nkirbit is at L-1 and your vote isn't on him right now.

I don't think you should. But you don't have to be passive if you're willing to hammer him.

Vote count?

[yuma]

And if you're so unconfident in your scumhunting why the big push to get us to all fall in line.  You're flailing yuma

Ok... spiritbears, I know you can't know this right now but right now you are taking everything I say and forcing it into scummy. This is on you, not on me.

I am unconfident in my scumhunting. I am. Everyone should be at this point, because there hasn't been anyone who has said "Yes! This is scum! I am sure of it!" about something that was very obvious and compelling. Again... only twice in the 18+ games I have played have I ever felt really, really sure about a lynch day1. Only twice! And even then I had reservations, but you have to put those aside if you ever want to get anywhere in this game as a townie. So that point is correct.

But it has nothing to do with your second point... pushing you all to get in line. All I have done is express my opinion and asked people to respond to it. If they respond with something I disagree with I will respond back. But I am not pushing anyone to vote for nkiribt aside from writing a case... and every vote has been because people read my case and agreed with it, but not because I have bullied or pressured anyone to vote that way. The only people I am trying to get to fall into line are you and voltaire because you are voting for me! And I know that you are wrong.

I am not flailing. You just have a really strong bias right now that makes everything I do see scummy to you. Your vision is clouded. Part of that is my fault, the rest is yours. I don't blame you for it, but I know I am town, and I know you are wrong. So I am trying to convince you that you are wrong--not that I expect much success with this post, but hey, you never know...

[Voltaire]

I will say this - I do not see sb's case on yuma one bit.

[spiritbears]

You are so blinded nk. Like I said.  I have no desire to fight against your lynch at this point.

I think you can cause his lynch. Pretty sure nkirbit is at L-1 and your vote isn't on him right now.

I don't think you should. But you don't have to be passive if you're willing to hammer him.

Vote count?

It's not just his unwillingness to take on Yuma....it's his unwillingness to push back against the weak case At ALL
So fine...
You wanted this nk...have it
vote nk

[yuma]

unoffical vote count (which I am sure someone will say, "yuma put this together! it is probably inaccurate!" If it is, sorry, I did my best:

mail-mi (1): nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
nkirbit (4): mail-mi, Robz888, mcmc, yuma (L-1)
yuma (1): voltaire, spiritbears

Not voting: liopoil

[yuma]

and we have a hammer, I think...

[nkirbit]

Look, I had made my case, SB.  I had said who I thought were better lynches, I had said why I thought Yuma's case was bad.  I didn't have anything new I wanted to say.

Reads, scum to town:

Mcmc
Mail-Mi
Robz
Yuma
Lio
SB
Voltaire

I'm forgetting someone, but they're probably in the middle since they don't bring up much thoughts.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.9

mail-mi (1): nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
nkirbit (5): mail-mi, Robz888, mcmcsalot, yuma, spiritbears
yuma (1): Voltaire

Not voting: liopoil

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

[ashersky]

THREAD LOCKED

[shraeye]

Hey, you guys lynched nkirbit.  That means I should tell you what his alignment is.  Or was... Do the dead even have alignments?!?  That's a question for the philosophers.

nkirbit was a Vanilla Townie!


NIGHT 1 has begun.
Please submit night actions by 10am Saturday morning (forum time)

[shraeye]

DAY 2 START!


Wait...

Uh....what else was i supposed to say?   Oh yeah, "measure twice, cut one gift horse in the mouth"...or maybe "A stopped clock is worth two in the bush".  Ugh,  none of those make sense.  Anyway, enjoy day 2.

[shraeye]

Vote Count 2.1

Not voting: chairs, liopoil, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, Robz888, spiritbears, Voltaire, yuma

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 11am forum time on Monday, July 15th

[liopoil]

ugh. Vote: Spiritbears for that hammer! I hate hammers like that. Yes, I know nkirbit had already said he wasn't going to claim. However, you have to state intent and wait for something. I was planning to read nkirbit, and I never got a chance to do that. It was possible that maybe I would find nkirbit to be clearly town, and could maybe have prevented a mislynch. This is why I sometimes freak out when people get to L-1, because things like this are disasterous.

[liopoil]

The reason for my vote (which I should have explained in my first post), is not that I'm frustrated with the hammer (which I am), but that I think if we let people get away with hammers with that, scum will take advantage of it. We can't let scum get away with hammering without warning. Only scum ever have a motive to do that. So I actually think he's scum.

[liopoil]

Another thing I dislike: when town forgets dead conf!townies' reads. So here are nkirbit's final reads:

Reads, scum to town:

Mcmc
Mail-Mi
Robz
Yuma
Lio
SB
Voltaire

I'm forgetting someone, but they're probably in the middle since they don't bring up much thoughts.

He forgets Chairs in this list. anyway, let's keep these in mind.

[liopoil]

I'll say this right now: let's skip all the silly speculation about why there wasn't a kill. If you're a PR, use your own judgement on when to say anything. Use good judgement though . We have nothing to gain by discussing it further, and scum has stuff to gain in terms of figuring out who the PRs are.

[mcmcsalot]

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

That's nonsense!! there's no way that nkirbit's partner should he be scum is going to say that he isn't going to vote for nkirbit. Infact, what I said makes sense. If nkirbit is scum, from a neutral perspective, I could very well be his partner. You absolutely cannot declare it a wagon on a townie because of that.

Well, yes. That's why I'll FoS: chairs, mcmc, and lio for saying it but not voting it (perhaps hoping that I'd hammer).

I had a post with this FoS written, then decided it went without saying, then saw your post, then decided to say it.

So volt, please explain this, why did you find me townie as well. You said you thought the wagon was on a townie because it had lots of support but didn't go through but then you throw me up there as a town read, posts later however you fos me and say you had the fos written.

[chairs]

Well, that could have gone better.  I'm still on limited access until about 36 hours from now. What can we glean from this? Who pushed this Wagon hardest, etc

[liopoil]

Well, that could have gone better.  I'm still on limited access until about 36 hours from now. What can we glean from this? Who pushed this Wagon hardest, etc

I think it make spiritbears look really scummy because of his flip on nkirbit. Seems like scum who was like "I'm gonna be off-wagon, this'll be awesome!" then, "oh no, this mislynch might not go through without me. I really just want to get to night and mislynch townies, so I'll "change my mind"".

It also makes whoever was the alternative wagon(s) look bad. So that's Yuma, and maybe mail-mi/chairs right?

[mail-mi]

vote: spirit ugh no no no! You've had a town read on nkirbit the whole day. Why would he change his mind? He meaning spirit.

[Robz888]

I think everybody voting SB isn't really thinking this through. Would he do that as scum? He'd have to be afraid to do that as scum. The hammer fits crazy town SB pretty well, though.

[liopoil]

He'd do it as scum if there was a good chance that he could get away with it, which I think there is. I don't think we should let him. Look at mcmcsalot, who as scum hammered robz in Another Dinner Party similarly, yet got away with it the next day and won. We can't let scum get away with doing things like that. If we do it makes the game super-easy for scum, and I know I will definitely be doing it when I finally get to be scum again, if I can get away with it. No good reason for town!SB to do that.

[spiritbears]

I didn't flip on nk.  I got pissed off st his unwillingness to defend himsellf.  I had s town read all along, but when he woukdnt even consider that there was scum on his train and wouldn't do anything to help his car, I put him out of his misery. 
If that makes me scummy oh well
I guess you all know how I feel about anyway

[mcmcsalot]

I didn't flip on nk.  I got pissed off st his unwillingness to defend himsellf.  I had s town read all along, but when he woukdnt even consider that there was scum on his train and wouldn't do anything to help his car, I put him out of his misery. 
If that makes me scummy oh well
I guess you all know how I feel about anyway

This is exactly how I read it when it happened, I don't find sb scummy for the hammer. NK was pretty much resigned to dying, its something I find myself doing as scum when I want to look like a "cool not concerned" townie.

[mail-mi]

I didn't flip on nk.  I got pissed off st his unwillingness to defend himsellf.  I had s town read all along, but when he woukdnt even consider that there was scum on his train and wouldn't do anything to help his car, I put him out of his misery. 
If that makes me scummy oh well
I guess you all know how I feel about anyway

Okay I see that. unvote now let's do some wagon analysis.

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 1.9

mail-mi (1): nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
nkirbit (5): mail-mi, Robz888, mcmcsalot, yuma, spiritbears
yuma (1): Voltaire

Not voting: liopoil

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 10:30pm forum time on Wednesday, July 3rd

So the scummiest people looking here are robz, Mcmc, and to an extent Yuma. I have had a townish read on Mcmc throughout D1, and Yuma, so I think robz comes out the most scummy here.

[liopoil]

what??

nkirbit DID defend himself, I can quote his posts for you. I don't think it was his fault he got mislynched, it was the fault of the people on the wagon and the fault of everyone off wagon not defending him. No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance. This excuse it just way too convenient for spiritbears. If we let people state huge townreads on someone and then hammer them then we are giving scum a huge advantage. It's quite simple: town should never hammer their townread. Scum might want to.

[spiritbears]

what??

nkirbit DID defend himself, I can quote his posts for you. I don't think it was his fault he got mislynched, it was the fault of the people on the wagon and the fault of everyone off wagon not defending him. No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance. This excuse it just way too convenient for spiritbears. If we let people state huge townreads on someone and then hammer them then we are giving scum a huge advantage. It's quite simple: town should never hammer their townread. Scum might want to.

Well thanks for the lesson lio
I haven't been around long enough to know whether whst youre saying is true or just your own view

[liopoil]

well, I believe it, others can come to their own conclusions.

[yuma]

vote: liopoil

Alas I do not have time to give complete reasonings as to why. I have been at work all day--following along via e-mail's--and will be there again tomorrow until evening when I will be able to post something a bit more substantial.

I'll let you all hypothesize as to why I am voting for him though, that sounds like fun...

PS: I will be VLA from Thursday morn to Saturday evening for the 4th of July holiday.

[Voltaire]

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

That's nonsense!! there's no way that nkirbit's partner should he be scum is going to say that he isn't going to vote for nkirbit. Infact, what I said makes sense. If nkirbit is scum, from a neutral perspective, I could very well be his partner. You absolutely cannot declare it a wagon on a townie because of that.

Well, yes. That's why I'll FoS: chairs, mcmc, and lio for saying it but not voting it (perhaps hoping that I'd hammer).

I had a post with this FoS written, then decided it went without saying, then saw your post, then decided to say it.

So volt, please explain this, why did you find me townie as well. You said you thought the wagon was on a townie because it had lots of support but didn't go through but then you throw me up there as a town read, posts later however you fos me and say you had the fos written.

I found you townie initially for your not-JK claim (via yuma's reasoning he posted about it). I FoS'd you (not the same as saying you're scum, just pointing out a scummy thing) and still found you townie on balance. Though that read is basically gone now and you're back to neutral with me.

[mcmcsalot]

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

That's nonsense!! there's no way that nkirbit's partner should he be scum is going to say that he isn't going to vote for nkirbit. Infact, what I said makes sense. If nkirbit is scum, from a neutral perspective, I could very well be his partner. You absolutely cannot declare it a wagon on a townie because of that.

Well, yes. That's why I'll FoS: chairs, mcmc, and lio for saying it but not voting it (perhaps hoping that I'd hammer).

I had a post with this FoS written, then decided it went without saying, then saw your post, then decided to say it.

So volt, please explain this, why did you find me townie as well. You said you thought the wagon was on a townie because it had lots of support but didn't go through but then you throw me up there as a town read, posts later however you fos me and say you had the fos written.

I found you townie initially for your not-JK claim (via yuma's reasoning he posted about it). I FoS'd you (not the same as saying you're scum, just pointing out a scummy thing) and still found you townie on balance. Though that read is basically gone now and you're back to neutral with me.

Thats good, I just wanted the question answered and I didn't feel like I got one, that makes sense.

[mcmcsalot]

what??

nkirbit DID defend himself, I can quote his posts for you. I don't think it was his fault he got mislynched, it was the fault of the people on the wagon and the fault of everyone off wagon not defending him. No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance. This excuse it just way too convenient for spiritbears. If we let people state huge townreads on someone and then hammer them then we are giving scum a huge advantage. It's quite simple: town should never hammer their townread. Scum might want to.

Hopefully the same reason I am going to vote: liopoil we just went over how much town needed to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this (bolded above) That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently.

[spiritbears]

what??

nkirbit DID defend himself, I can quote his posts for you. I don't think it was his fault he got mislynched, it was the fault of the people on the wagon and the fault of everyone off wagon not defending him. No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance. This excuse it just way too convenient for spiritbears. If we let people state huge townreads on someone and then hammer them then we are giving scum a huge advantage. It's quite simple: town should never hammer their townread. Scum might want to.

Hopefully the same reason I am going to vote: liopoil we just went over how much town needed to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this (bolded above) That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently.

I didn't think it was a fair statement, so I'm glad you weighed in. Although I'm sure he will think I'm OMGUS'ing here (I'm not)
Vote Lio

[shraeye]

Vote Count 2.2

spiritbears (1): liopoil
liopoil (3): yuma, mcmcsalot, spiritbears

Not voting: chairs, mail-mi, Robz888, Voltaire

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 11am forum time on Wednesday, July 15th

[spiritbears]

Shouldn't that be Yuma instead of volt on lio?

[Voltaire]

Shouldn't that be Yuma instead of volt on lio?

Yeah, I think so. Just in case, unvote.

[liopoil]

hi guys, I'm here. I see I have some votes, I'll go find out why that is...

[liopoil]

vote: liopoil

Alas I do not have time to give complete reasonings as to why. I have been at work all day--following along via e-mail's--and will be there again tomorrow until evening when I will be able to post something a bit more substantial.

I'll let you all hypothesize as to why I am voting for him though, that sounds like fun...

well, okay...

nkirbit DID defend himself, I can quote his posts for you. I don't think it was his fault he got mislynched, it was the fault of the people on the wagon and the fault of everyone off wagon not defending him. No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance. This excuse it just way too convenient for spiritbears.

Hopefully the same reason I am going to vote: liopoil we just went over how much town needed to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this (bolded above) That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently.

no. it's the opposite:

"we just went over how much town needs to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this: (No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance.)"

I'M town shooting myself in the foot? well if I'm town, why are you voting for me? more importantly, how do you know I'm town? clearly you don't think I'm town though, so I don't understand why me "shooting myself in the foot" (which I only "am" according to you if I'm town) is scummy. Are you saying that if I'm town, I'm shooting myself in the foot, but if I'm town, I wouldn't shoot myself in the foot, so I'm scum? That would make perfect sense if I was shooting myself in the foot, but I'm not.

I say that town should never hammer their townread, which I believe to be true. Based on this, spiritbears, if town, wouldn't hammer his townread. because he did something I don't think would happen if he is town, I think he is scum. It's just logic, and I think it's valid logic and a quite strong reason for a lynch on D2.  The only potential flaw I see is that perhaps SB did shoot himself in the foot. It seems everyone thinks that he did. I am giving him the assumption that he would not do what I see to be a mistake.

"That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently."

I don't think it is weak. I think it is a good line of reasoning. It's scumhunting, because I'm town who thinks SB is scum. I'm theorizing about what town would and wouldn't do. the reason it has not worked for town is that town has been playing badly and doing things that town shouldn't do. If town started acting like town it would be a lot easier to lynch scum.

mcmc, why do you think I am scum? the only line of reasoning I can sort of find in your post is that "If liopoil is town he is shooting himself in the foot, he wouldn't shoot himself in the foot, so he's scum". And that, as it happens, is the exact same reasoning I am using to find SB to be scum, which you disagree with yourself.

I didn't think it was a fair statement, so I'm glad you weighed in. Although I'm sure he will think I'm OMGUS'ing here (I'm not)
Vote Lio

I don't think you're OMGUSing. however, I am unclear on why you think I am scum. is it because you disagree with "No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance."? If so, I have two questions for you:

1. Why do you disagree? aka, why would hammering a townread ever help you achieve the town wincon? not asking you to change your mind, just wondering.
2. Why does me holding a belief you disagree with make me more likely to be scum?

[Robz888]

Um, I find it EXTREMELY weird that yuma says he has a case against liopoil, doesn't give it, and mcmc and SB vote without even hearing the case! Okay, sheeple.

Vote: mcmc

[Voltaire]

Um, I find it EXTREMELY weird that yuma says he has a case against liopoil, doesn't give it, and mcmc and SB vote without even hearing the case! Okay, sheeple.

Vote: mcmc

Except mcmc gave a reason and sb sheeped that one. Just to be clear.

[spiritbears]

vote: liopoil

Alas I do not have time to give complete reasonings as to why. I have been at work all day--following along via e-mail's--and will be there again tomorrow until evening when I will be able to post something a bit more substantial.

I'll let you all hypothesize as to why I am voting for him though, that sounds like fun...

well, okay...

nkirbit DID defend himself, I can quote his posts for you. I don't think it was his fault he got mislynched, it was the fault of the people on the wagon and the fault of everyone off wagon not defending him. No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance. This excuse it just way too convenient for spiritbears.

Hopefully the same reason I am going to vote: liopoil we just went over how much town needed to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this (bolded above) That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently.

no. it's the opposite:

"we just went over how much town needs to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this: (No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance.)"

I'M town shooting myself in the foot? well if I'm town, why are you voting for me? more importantly, how do you know I'm town? clearly you don't think I'm town though, so I don't understand why me "shooting myself in the foot" (which I only "am" according to you if I'm town) is scummy. Are you saying that if I'm town, I'm shooting myself in the foot, but if I'm town, I wouldn't shoot myself in the foot, so I'm scum? That would make perfect sense if I was shooting myself in the foot, but I'm not.

I say that town should never hammer their townread, which I believe to be true. Based on this, spiritbears, if town, wouldn't hammer his townread. because he did something I don't think would happen if he is town, I think he is scum. It's just logic, and I think it's valid logic and a quite strong reason for a lynch on D2.  The only potential flaw I see is that perhaps SB did shoot himself in the foot. It seems everyone thinks that he did. I am giving him the assumption that he would not do what I see to be a mistake.

"That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently."

I don't think it is weak. I think it is a good line of reasoning. It's scumhunting, because I'm town who thinks SB is scum. I'm theorizing about what town would and wouldn't do. the reason it has not worked for town is that town has been playing badly and doing things that town shouldn't do. If town started acting like town it would be a lot easier to lynch scum.

mcmc, why do you think I am scum? the only line of reasoning I can sort of find in your post is that "If liopoil is town he is shooting himself in the foot, he wouldn't shoot himself in the foot, so he's scum". And that, as it happens, is the exact same reasoning I am using to find SB to be scum, which you disagree with yourself.

I didn't think it was a fair statement, so I'm glad you weighed in. Although I'm sure he will think I'm OMGUS'ing here (I'm not)
Vote Lio

I don't think you're OMGUSing. however, I am unclear on why you think I am scum. is it because you disagree with "No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance."? If so, I have two questions for you:

1. Why do you disagree? aka, why would hammering a townread ever help you achieve the town wincon? not asking you to change your mind, just wondering.
2. Why does me holding a belief you disagree with make me more likely to be scum?

1) you're asking the wrong question. The question is exactly how did I hurt town by hammering a player that had been at l-1 for quite a while, had plenty of chances to fight for his life and refused, had plenty of chances to give reads, claim etc. And didn't, etc.  Exactly how was nk helping us? The answer is he wasn't. And you defending that kind of play...and going further declaring it scummy to EVER hammer a player in that situation is just not good fir us...it's scummy
2. See above

[Robz888]

Um, I find it EXTREMELY weird that yuma says he has a case against liopoil, doesn't give it, and mcmc and SB vote without even hearing the case! Okay, sheeple.

Vote: mcmc

Except mcmc gave a reason and sb sheeped that one. Just to be clear.

The reason mcmc gave is paper thin.

[liopoil]

I saw that too. I mean, everyone sheeps Yuma sometimes, but that's a pretty big extreme there... I don't think they were just taking his word for it though, they have their own reasons. What they are, I am not sure yet.

oh hey, voltaire, can you explain to me why mcmc thinks I'm scum?

[liopoil]

I don't think SB sheeped mcmc.

[Voltaire]

Um, I find it EXTREMELY weird that yuma says he has a case against liopoil, doesn't give it, and mcmc and SB vote without even hearing the case! Okay, sheeple.

Vote: mcmc

Except mcmc gave a reason and sb sheeped that one. Just to be clear.

The reason mcmc gave is paper thin.

Agreed.

[Voltaire]

oh hey, voltaire, can you explain to me why mcmc thinks I'm scum?

Why do you think I could do that?

[spiritbears]

That the kindof uncareful thinking we are used to you promoting robz...or should I say scumrobz...

[Robz888]

That the kindof uncareful thinking we are used to you promoting robz...or should I say scumrobz...

What?

[spiritbears]

That the kindof uncareful thinking we are used to you promoting robz...or should I say scumrobz...

What?

What do you mean what...you only made one statement

[liopoil]

I have two questions for you:

1. Why do you disagree? aka, why would hammering a townread ever help you achieve the town wincon? not asking you to change your mind, just wondering.
2. Why does me holding a belief you disagree with make me more likely to be scum?

1) you're asking the wrong question. The question is exactly how did I hurt town by hammering a player that had been at l-1 for quite a while, had plenty of chances to fight for his life and refused, had plenty of chances to give reads, claim etc. And didn't, etc.  Exactly how was nk helping us? The answer is he wasn't. And you defending that kind of play...and going further declaring it scummy to EVER hammer a player in that situation is just not good fir us...it's scummy
2. See above

spiritbears, that lynch wasn't a done deal. It was still possible for us to lynch somebody else that day. nkirbit didn't play perfectly, and maybe could have done more to prevent his lynch, but up until your hammer, there wasn't a 5th person to vote for him. chances are he would've been lynched anyway, but you made it certain.

[Robz888]

That the kindof uncareful thinking we are used to you promoting robz...or should I say scumrobz...

What?

What do you mean what...you only made one statement

I'm not promoting uncareful thinking.

[Robz888]

I have two questions for you:

1. Why do you disagree? aka, why would hammering a townread ever help you achieve the town wincon? not asking you to change your mind, just wondering.
2. Why does me holding a belief you disagree with make me more likely to be scum?

1) you're asking the wrong question. The question is exactly how did I hurt town by hammering a player that had been at l-1 for quite a while, had plenty of chances to fight for his life and refused, had plenty of chances to give reads, claim etc. And didn't, etc.  Exactly how was nk helping us? The answer is he wasn't. And you defending that kind of play...and going further declaring it scummy to EVER hammer a player in that situation is just not good fir us...it's scummy
2. See above

spiritbears, that lynch wasn't a done deal. It was still possible for us to lynch somebody else that day. nkirbit didn't play perfectly, and maybe could have done more to prevent his lynch, but up until your hammer, there wasn't a 5th person to vote for him. chances are he would've been lynched anyway, but you made it certain.

I do agree with that, actually.

[liopoil]

oh hey, voltaire, can you explain to me why mcmc thinks I'm scum?

Why do you think I could do that?

because:

Except mcmc gave a reason and sb sheeped that one. Just to be clear.

so apparently you saw a reason that he gave!

[Voltaire]

what??

nkirbit DID defend himself, I can quote his posts for you. I don't think it was his fault he got mislynched, it was the fault of the people on the wagon and the fault of everyone off wagon not defending him. No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance. This excuse it just way too convenient for spiritbears. If we let people state huge townreads on someone and then hammer them then we are giving scum a huge advantage. It's quite simple: town should never hammer their townread. Scum might want to.

Hopefully the same reason I am going to vote: liopoil we just went over how much town needed to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this (bolded above) That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently.

It's in his post, right after his vote!

[liopoil]

It's in his post, right after his vote!

well yeah, I saw that, but it sounds more like he's scolding me for voting for what he thinks is a bad reason, not saying why he thinks I'm scum.

[Voltaire]

It's in his post, right after his vote!

well yeah, I saw that, but it sounds more like he's scolding me for voting for what he thinks is a bad reason, not saying why he thinks I'm scum.

And this gets into why I can't explain his vote/reasoning, but I think it's important to note that he did give reasoning (even if one thinks it's bad/flimsy).

[spiritbears]

That the kindof uncareful thinking we are used to you promoting robz...or should I say scumrobz...

What?

What do you mean what...you only made one statement

I'm not promoting uncareful thinking.

Yes you are....as usual. Then when I point out how you're wrong (for promoting that I voted without "hearing a reason", hint: I already had my own (if you had bothered to read my interaction with lio)... you'd say, oh, that's legit....except thst if comes from me, you write it off...if it comes from someone else....different story

[Robz888]

That the kindof uncareful thinking we are used to you promoting robz...or should I say scumrobz...

What?

What do you mean what...you only made one statement

I'm not promoting uncareful thinking.

Yes you are....as usual. Then when I point out how you're wrong (for promoting that I voted without "hearing a reason", hint: I already had my own (if you had bothered to read my interaction with lio)... you'd say, oh, that's legit....except thst if comes from me, you write it off...if it comes from someone else....different story

Right, I know that both you and mcmc have reasons, but you didn't vote until yuma signalled he was against lio--without explanation! Which is very interesting, and does not reflect well on either of you.

[spiritbears]

That the kindof uncareful thinking we are used to you promoting robz...or should I say scumrobz...

What?

What do you mean what...you only made one statement

I'm not promoting uncareful thinking.

Yes you are....as usual. Then when I point out how you're wrong (for promoting that I voted without "hearing a reason", hint: I already had my own (if you had bothered to read my interaction with lio)... you'd say, oh, that's legit....except thst if comes from me, you write it off...if it comes from someone else....different story

Right, I know that both you and mcmc have reasons, but you didn't vote until yuma signalled he was against lio--without explanation! Which is very interesting, and does not reflect well on either of you.

Again..."without explanation" is FALSE

[Robz888]

That the kindof uncareful thinking we are used to you promoting robz...or should I say scumrobz...

What?

What do you mean what...you only made one statement

I'm not promoting uncareful thinking.

Yes you are....as usual. Then when I point out how you're wrong (for promoting that I voted without "hearing a reason", hint: I already had my own (if you had bothered to read my interaction with lio)... you'd say, oh, that's legit....except thst if comes from me, you write it off...if it comes from someone else....different story

Right, I know that both you and mcmc have reasons, but you didn't vote until yuma signalled he was against lio--without explanation! Which is very interesting, and does not reflect well on either of you.

Again..."without explanation" is FALSE

Yuma, without explanation, signaled he was against lio.

[liopoil]

it does come off as maybe you had an idea, weren't sure about it, but then Yuma validated that you were "right" kind of. Or maybe you're scum who didn't want to start the wagon, wanted to choose someone who you think you could get mislynched.

Right, I know that both you and mcmc have reasons, but you didn't vote until yuma signalled he was against lio--without explanation! Which is very interesting, and does not reflect well on either of you.

Again..."without explanation" is FALSE

...he's saying that Yuma voted without explanation, which is TRUE.

[spiritbears]

That the kindof uncareful thinking we are used to you promoting robz...or should I say scumrobz...

What?

What do you mean what...you only made one statement

I'm not promoting uncareful thinking.

Yes you are....as usual. Then when I point out how you're wrong (for promoting that I voted without "hearing a reason", hint: I already had my own (if you had bothered to read my interaction with lio)... you'd say, oh, that's legit....except thst if comes from me, you write it off...if it comes from someone else....different story

Right, I know that both you and mcmc have reasons, but you didn't vote until yuma signalled he was against lio--without explanation! Which is very interesting, and does not reflect well on either of you.

Again..."without explanation" is FALSE

Yuma, without explanation, signaled he was against lio.

I think says much more about you....that you arent willing to admit you're wrong when I point it out....that or you're trying to twist it for your own scum purposes

[Robz888]

You and mcmc were clearly following yuma's vote, which carried no explanation. Mcmc's quick justification of the sheeping rings false to me. You, I tihnk, are merely wrong.

[spiritbears]

it does come off as maybe you had an idea, weren't sure about it, but then Yuma validated that you were "right" kind of. Or maybe you're scum who didn't want to start the wagon, wanted to choose someone who you think you could get mislynched.

Right, I know that both you and mcmc have reasons, but you didn't vote until yuma signalled he was against lio--without explanation! Which is very interesting, and does not reflect well on either of you.

Again..."without explanation" is FALSE

...he's saying that Yuma voted without explanation, which is TRUE.

Lio this is just patently false. I voted after MC--. Gave a reason (and did so prior) and gave a mote detailed answer IMMEDIATELY after..

[spiritbears]

You and mcmc were clearly following yuma's vote, which carried no explanation. Mcmc's quick justification of the sheeping rings false to me. You, I tihnk, are merely wrong.

Exactly how does MC (and me according to your twisted view) sheep Yuma when Yuma gives no reason for his vote???  You are claiming sheep vote when the people that came second and third gave reasons and the first did not!

[Robz888]

But you didn't vote until yuma did. You could have voted for lio earlier. You didn't. You felt that yuma had given you permission to do so. Even though for all we know--and I suspect this might be the case--he has nothing against lio and is trying to trap someone.

[liopoil]

I believe the timings of both mcmc and SB's votes are suspicious, but mcmc's much more so because his came before SB.

[spiritbears]

But you didn't vote until yuma did. You could have voted for lio earlier. You didn't. You felt that yuma had given you permission to do so. Even though for all we know--and I suspect this might be the case--he has nothing against lio and is trying to trap someone.

That's right robz....go ahead and tell me how I feel

[Robz888]

I am getting frustrated.

[Voltaire]

But you didn't vote until yuma did. You could have voted for lio earlier. You didn't. You felt that yuma had given you permission to do so. Even though for all we know--and I suspect this might be the case--he has nothing against lio and is trying to trap someone.

That's right robz....go ahead and tell me how I feel

Robz is making a decent point. You'd be best to counter it without appeal to emotions.

I find myself in a strange position where I tend to agree with sb on most of his reads but none of his reasoning. I'm town. Is he town arriving at the same conclusions in a different way? Or scum arriving at the same conclusions via invented reasoning? Either way, what does it say about my town play?

I have no constructive thoughts to offer at this point. I've re-read D1 and need to put my thoughts in order. Having 8 alive D2 is different. Never been in a game with that before.

[liopoil]

Also, SB and mcmc seem to be basing their votes on events today. We really, really need to reread. My SB vote was based on the most obvious thing from yesterday, the hammer. I should look at everyone else's positions.

[spiritbears]

But you didn't vote until yuma did. You could have voted for lio earlier. You didn't. You felt that yuma had given you permission to do so. Even though for all we know--and I suspect this might be the case--he has nothing against lio and is trying to trap someone.

That's right robz....go ahead and tell me how I feel

Robz is making a decent point. You'd be best to counter it without appeal to emotions.

I find myself in a strange position where I tend to agree with sb on most of his reads but none of his reasoning. I'm town. Is he town arriving at the same conclusions in a different way? Or scum arriving at the same conclusions via invented reasoning? Either way, what does it say about my town play?

I have no constructive thoughts to offer at this point. I've re-read D1 and need to put my thoughts in order. Having 8 alive D2 is different. Never been in a game with that before.

I think it's not a decent thing to do...telling other people how they feel
But if you want an answer volt, no I never felt that Yuma have me permission. That is just beyond silly. When have I ever looked to anyone else for permission to vote? You don't know me if you think that's even a possibility

[spiritbears]

(Gave not have)

[Robz888]

But you didn't vote until yuma did. You could have voted for lio earlier. You didn't. You felt that yuma had given you permission to do so. Even though for all we know--and I suspect this might be the case--he has nothing against lio and is trying to trap someone.

That's right robz....go ahead and tell me how I feel

Robz is making a decent point. You'd be best to counter it without appeal to emotions.

I find myself in a strange position where I tend to agree with sb on most of his reads but none of his reasoning. I'm town. Is he town arriving at the same conclusions in a different way? Or scum arriving at the same conclusions via invented reasoning? Either way, what does it say about my town play?

I have no constructive thoughts to offer at this point. I've re-read D1 and need to put my thoughts in order. Having 8 alive D2 is different. Never been in a game with that before.

I think it's not a decent thing to do...telling other people how they feel
But if you want an answer volt, no I never felt that Yuma have me permission. That is just beyond silly. When have I ever looked to anyone else for permission to vote? You don't know me if you think that's even a possibility

I'm not voting you for doing it, I'm voting mcmc for doing it.

[spiritbears]

I'm going to walk away from here...my appoligies to Shraeye. Your game was fun and I enjoyed it. But apparently I have made this game unfun for many of you here.  I'm sorry

[liopoil]

oh no.

[Voltaire]

I'm going to walk away from here...my appoligies to Shraeye. Your game was fun and I enjoyed it. But apparently I have made this game unfun for many of you here.  I'm sorry

Not true at all from me...frustration != unfun. But if you'll feel better not playing that's what you should do. Sorry to see you go.

[liopoil]

yeah, I'm still having fun, even though you are frustratingly wrong about me

[mcmcsalot]

vote: liopoil

Alas I do not have time to give complete reasonings as to why. I have been at work all day--following along via e-mail's--and will be there again tomorrow until evening when I will be able to post something a bit more substantial.

I'll let you all hypothesize as to why I am voting for him though, that sounds like fun...

well, okay...

nkirbit DID defend himself, I can quote his posts for you. I don't think it was his fault he got mislynched, it was the fault of the people on the wagon and the fault of everyone off wagon not defending him. No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance. This excuse it just way too convenient for spiritbears.

Hopefully the same reason I am going to vote: liopoil we just went over how much town needed to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this (bolded above) That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently.

no. it's the opposite:

"we just went over how much town needs to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this: (No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance.)"

I'M town shooting myself in the foot?(1) well if I'm town, why are you voting for me? more importantly, how do you know I'm town?(2) clearly you don't think I'm town though, so I don't understand why me "shooting myself in the foot" (which I only "am" according to you if I'm town) is scummy. Are you saying that if I'm town, I'm shooting myself in the foot, but if I'm town, I wouldn't shoot myself in the foot, so I'm scum? That would make perfect sense if I was shooting myself in the foot, but I'm not.

I say that town should never hammer their townread, which I believe to be true. Based on this, spiritbears, if town, wouldn't hammer his townread(3). because he did something I don't think would happen if he is town, I think he is scum. It's just logic, and I think it's valid logic and a quite strong reason for a lynch on D2.  The only potential flaw I see is that perhaps SB did shoot himself in the foot. It seems everyone thinks that he did. I am giving him the assumption that he would not do what I see to be a mistake.

"That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently."

I don't think it is weak. I think it is a good line of reasoning. It's scumhunting, because I'm town who thinks SB is scum. I'm theorizing about what town would and wouldn't do. the reason it has not worked for town is that town has been playing badly and doing things that town shouldn't do. If town started acting like town it would be a lot easier to lynch scum.

mcmc, why do you think I am scum? the only line of reasoning I can sort of find in your post is that "If liopoil is town he is shooting himself in the foot, he wouldn't shoot himself in the foot, so he's scum". And that, as it happens, is the exact same reasoning I am using to find SB to be scum, which you disagree with yourself.

This is the sort if thing that makes me think you are scum and I really need to remember after this game so I can improve my reading of you.

Let me clarify what I meant and why I thought you were scummy.
1) I don't think you are town shooting yourself in the foot I think generally townies have been shooting themselves in the foot by lynching based on this "town shouldn't do X" logic. Now seeing as we just had that discussion I think it is more likely scum!liopoil pushes the wagon that "town shouldn't do X" than that town!liopoil actually thinks spiritbears is scummy for hammering a town read.

My second issue with this is that it is a completely safe legitimate unprovable wagon which I am being extra cautious of. I mean yes sb had a town read yes he hammered him, I don't think that means he is any more likely to be scum, so you saying he did that is safe and in my opinion pushing a townie lynch, so I find you scummy for it.

2) this is something else I find really scummy, you decide I have a bad reasoning for finding you scummy and say I think your townie(I wasn't saying that) then piggyback onto the same statement that I a scummy because "how do I know your town" I mean really that is so much of a jump to an advantageous position for yourself and it something I find scum more likely to do(it's very similar to the tactic ash used against me previously) you sweep my argument under the rug and exclaim I'm scummy in the same breath without any response or reason.

[Voltaire]

Is chairs still V/LA?

[chairs]

vote: liopoil

Alas I do not have time to give complete reasonings as to why. I have been at work all day--following along via e-mail's--and will be there again tomorrow until evening when I will be able to post something a bit more substantial.

I'll let you all hypothesize as to why I am voting for him though, that sounds like fun...

well, okay...

nkirbit DID defend himself, I can quote his posts for you. I don't think it was his fault he got mislynched, it was the fault of the people on the wagon and the fault of everyone off wagon not defending him. No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance. This excuse it just way too convenient for spiritbears.

Hopefully the same reason I am going to vote: liopoil we just went over how much town needed to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this (bolded above) That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently.

no. it's the opposite:

"we just went over how much town needs to stop shooting itself in the foot with statements like this: (No way should town EVER hammer somebody they have a townread on under any circumstance.)"

I'M town shooting myself in the foot?(1) well if I'm town, why are you voting for me? more importantly, how do you know I'm town?(2) clearly you don't think I'm town though, so I don't understand why me "shooting myself in the foot" (which I only "am" according to you if I'm town) is scummy. Are you saying that if I'm town, I'm shooting myself in the foot, but if I'm town, I wouldn't shoot myself in the foot, so I'm scum? That would make perfect sense if I was shooting myself in the foot, but I'm not.

I say that town should never hammer their townread, which I believe to be true. Based on this, spiritbears, if town, wouldn't hammer his townread(3). because he did something I don't think would happen if he is town, I think he is scum. It's just logic, and I think it's valid logic and a quite strong reason for a lynch on D2.  The only potential flaw I see is that perhaps SB did shoot himself in the foot. It seems everyone thinks that he did. I am giving him the assumption that he would not do what I see to be a mistake.

"That is way too weak a reason to push a D2 wagon and is not  scum hunting or analyzing its theorizing about what is "towny" which has not worked for town recently."

I don't think it is weak. I think it is a good line of reasoning. It's scumhunting, because I'm town who thinks SB is scum. I'm theorizing about what town would and wouldn't do. the reason it has not worked for town is that town has been playing badly and doing things that town shouldn't do. If town started acting like town it would be a lot easier to lynch scum.

mcmc, why do you think I am scum? the only line of reasoning I can sort of find in your post is that "If liopoil is town he is shooting himself in the foot, he wouldn't shoot himself in the foot, so he's scum". And that, as it happens, is the exact same reasoning I am using to find SB to be scum, which you disagree with yourself.

This is the sort if thing that makes me think you are scum and I really need to remember after this game so I can improve my reading of you.

Let me clarify what I meant and why I thought you were scummy.
1) I don't think you are town shooting yourself in the foot I think generally townies have been shooting themselves in the foot by lynching based on this "town shouldn't do X" logic. Now seeing as we just had that discussion I think it is more likely scum!liopoil pushes the wagon that "town shouldn't do X" than that town!liopoil actually thinks spiritbears is scummy for hammering a town read.

My second issue with this is that it is a completely safe legitimate unprovable wagon which I am being extra cautious of. I mean yes sb had a town read yes he hammered him, I don't think that means he is any more likely to be scum, so you saying he did that is safe and in my opinion pushing a townie lynch, so I find you scummy for it.

2) this is something else I find really scummy, you decide I have a bad reasoning for finding you scummy and say I think your townie(I wasn't saying that) then piggyback onto the same statement that I a scummy because "how do I know your town" I mean really that is so much of a jump to an advantageous position for yourself and it something I find scum more likely to do(it's very similar to the tactic ash used against me previously) you sweep my argument under the rug and exclaim I'm scummy in the same breath without any response or reason.

I really REALLY like mcmc coming back to give us this more detailed explanation.  I wish I'd gotten it in the first post (that Robz is poking at originally, albeit half-heartedly).  The clarity he adds here is very interesting, and does make a good argument for scum!liopoil.

Overall, despite the strong argument from mcmc on D2, I'm going to stick with my instincts following my D1 vote.  vote: Robz

[chairs]

Rather, Vote: Robz

[chairs]

(Important note - this was suppposed to be part of my post 2 posts ago.  Sorry for any confusion this causes!)

I'm back! From Outer Space! (Or at least Chicago).   The post-count for this game was somewhat reasonable, thank goodness, so I'll try to address what jumped out at me for D2 (sectioning it off):

====

Um, I find it EXTREMELY weird that yuma says he has a case against liopoil, doesn't give it, and mcmc and SB vote without even hearing the case! Okay, sheeple.

Vote: mcmc

Except mcmc gave a reason and sb sheeped that one. Just to be clear.

The reason mcmc gave is paper thin.

I did feel mcmc's response in this post was not well-argued.  It leads me to a slight scum read on mcmc, even though I still feel there's potential for scum!Robz here trying to look helpful (while potentially throwing the finger) - I found Robz scummy on D1 (albeit I don't currently recall why - I'm probably going to suck it up and re-read everybody) and I'm getting nil-to-slightly-town!Robz D2 so far in the posts.

====

I have two questions for you:

1. Why do you disagree? aka, why would hammering a townread ever help you achieve the town wincon? not asking you to change your mind, just wondering.
2. Why does me holding a belief you disagree with make me more likely to be scum?

1) you're asking the wrong question. The question is exactly how did I hurt town by hammering a player that had been at l-1 for quite a while, had plenty of chances to fight for his life and refused, had plenty of chances to give reads, claim etc. And didn't, etc.  Exactly how was nk helping us? The answer is he wasn't. And you defending that kind of play...and going further declaring it scummy to EVER hammer a player in that situation is just not good fir us...it's scummy
2. See above

spiritbears, that lynch wasn't a done deal. It was still possible for us to lynch somebody else that day. nkirbit didn't play perfectly, and maybe could have done more to prevent his lynch, but up until your hammer, there wasn't a 5th person to vote for him. chances are he would've been lynched anyway, but you made it certain.

I do agree with that, actually.

There's an argument on both sides here; I can see the point SB was making, but a mislynch is a mislynch, regardless of if you feel it helped the game.  Was nkirbit playing poorly? Maybe.  Maybe.  Was that, by itself, a reason to lynch? I don't think so, but I won't necessarily that SB was wrong to do so (I still have to weigh the options on this one).  An interesting situation occurs here, though, in that this does give me a slight hint of scum!Robz with the "I agree, SB is either mistaken or scum" implication of his post without further discussion.  It seems to me that town would want to dissect this in a bit more detail to try to figure out which of the two scenarios was correct.

====

You and mcmc were clearly following yuma's vote, which carried no explanation. Mcmc's quick justification of the sheeping rings false to me. You, I tihnk, are merely wrong.

I hate to feel like I'm tunneling Robz, but this is another post that just struck my "You don't seem as though you should necessarily be that concise" nerve.  Why does mcmc sound bad when SB just sounds wrong (and admittedly perhaps a bit stubborn)?  Your lack of deep explanation makes this post somewhat less than beneficial, I think (I welcome and encourage disagreement/critique here) and continues your slide towards scum!Robz in my mind.

====

I'm going to walk away from here...my appoligies to Shraeye. Your game was fun and I enjoyed it. But apparently I have made this game unfun for many of you here.  I'm sorry

I have thoroughly enjoyed playing with you, but I do feel you are taking a game based upon "trust no one" too personally/seriously, perhaps.  I hope you'll change your mind, if I didn't miss the /out post (and you really haven't /outed yet).

====

Is chairs still V/LA?

I am (finally) back   I didn't understand that there was a V/LA thread to post to, in the future you'll see me post there when I have to be gone.

[yuma]

Even though for all we know--and I suspect this might be the case--he has nothing against lio and is trying to trap someone.

Nope not a trap. I'll post what I saw in my next post.

[liopoil]

yeah, shraeye, robz, or galz can delete that I think.

[liopoil]

This is the sort if thing that makes me think you are scum and I really need to remember after this game so I can improve my reading of you.

Let me clarify what I meant and why I thought you were scummy.
1) I don't think you are town shooting yourself in the foot I think generally townies have been shooting themselves in the foot by lynching based on this "town shouldn't do X" logic. Now seeing as we just had that discussion I think it is more likely scum!liopoil pushes the wagon that "town shouldn't do X" than that town!liopoil actually thinks spiritbears is scummy for hammering a town read.

My second issue with this is that it is a completely safe legitimate unprovable wagon which I am being extra cautious of. I mean yes sb had a town read yes he hammered him, I don't think that means he is any more likely to be scum, so you saying he did that is safe and in my opinion pushing a townie lynch, so I find you scummy for it.

2) this is something else I find really scummy, you decide I have a bad reasoning for finding you scummy and say I think your townie(I wasn't saying that) then piggyback onto the same statement that I a scummy because "how do I know your town" I mean really that is so much of a jump to an advantageous position for yourself and it something I find scum more likely to do(it's very similar to the tactic ash used against me previously) you sweep my argument under the rug and exclaim I'm scummy in the same breath without any response or reason.

Thanks for explaining this further, a lot of my post was confusion about what you were trying to say. I couldn't figure out what you were saying, so explored a bunch of possibilities... I suggested that you thought I was town because part of your original post suggested that in a way.

okay, so you think I'm wrong and pushing a misslynch. That's fair, can't argue against that, all I can say is that I'm being genuine in my reads. Don't believe me, nothing I can do about that.

to your point 2, I said that purely out of confusion about what you were saying. I couldn't make sense of your post, but I could see that you might be saying something like that.

so, if I have it right now, you think I'm scum because I want to lynch SB, and you think SB is town and my case is weak? Doesn't seem too strong to me.

[yuma]

Alright, what struck me as scummy was how lio was trying to set the tone and the mood of the town in each new post at the beginning of day. It wasn't very blatant, it was subtle, but it is certainly there. He is coming into this day with an agenda and trying to move town toward a specific goal, a specific direction... scum does that. Not town.

First post:

ugh. Vote: Spiritbears for that hammer! I hate hammers like that. Yes, I know nkirbit had already said he wasn't going to claim. However, you have to state intent and wait for something. I was planning to read nkirbit, and I never got a chance to do that. It was possible that maybe I would find nkirbit to be clearly town, and could maybe have prevented a mislynch. This is why I sometimes freak out when people get to L-1, because things like this are disasterous.

pretty obvious, let's look at spiritbears.

Sidenote: I am in the camp that doesn't find spiritbears scummy for what he did. To me it was very similar to the way he voted at the end of mean girls... pretty abruptly and certainly not at a point when the conversation was over. His vote was more about himself being frustrated with nkirbit and making up his mind... and typically when spiritbears makes up his mind, it is made (he knows this, we know this... so yeah, why not just go ahead and hammer.) I don't like it, but that is the way it is.

But for lio--if he is scum--it is the perfect route to go. And the easiest. And if I am scum, I am also going to go down this route, because hey... why not? It is potentially a pretty easy mislynch.

Next post:

The reason for my vote (which I should have explained in my first post), is not that I'm frustrated with the hammer (which I am), but that I think if we let people get away with hammers with that, scum will take advantage of it. We can't let scum get away with hammering without warning. Only scum ever have a motive to do that. So I actually think he's scum.

his reasoning... it is basically a policy vote at this point. Bad for this game, good for f.ds overall. Now I am all in favor of good for f.ds overall, but I also want to win this game.

Next:

Another thing I dislike: when town forgets dead conf!townies' reads. So here are nkirbit's final reads:

Reads, scum to town:

Mcmc
Mail-Mi
Robz
Yuma
Lio
SB
Voltaire

I'm forgetting someone, but they're probably in the middle since they don't bring up much thoughts.

He forgets Chairs in this list. anyway, let's keep these in mind.

Again he is directing out thoughts for us. "Hey, let's not forget what the dead townie thought!!! Oh and by the way he thought I was town. Just FYI."

Note here that nkirbit had a town read on spiritbears--because I know someone else will bring it up--and I already know what lio's answer would be... "Well nkirbit at that time didn't know that spiritbears would vote for him, if he did, his scum read on him would have gone up." Fair enough, but really the point is that we are moving in a direction that lio is dictating from the outset.

Next post: not a direction one, but a nice little public relations boost about PRs...

I'll say this right now: let's skip all the silly speculation about why there wasn't a kill. If you're a PR, use your own judgement on when to say anything. Use good judgement though . We have nothing to gain by discussing it further, and scum has stuff to gain in terms of figuring out who the PRs are.

again another post that is moving us in a certain direction:

Well, that could have gone better.  I'm still on limited access until about 36 hours from now. What can we glean from this? Who pushed this Wagon hardest, etc

I think it make spiritbears look really scummy because of his flip on nkirbit. Seems like scum who was like "I'm gonna be off-wagon, this'll be awesome!" then, "oh no, this mislynch might not go through without me. I really just want to get to night and mislynch townies, so I'll "change my mind"".

It also makes whoever was the alternative wagon(s) look bad. So that's Yuma, and maybe mail-mi/chairs right?

So if not spiritbears, who else could be an easy mislynch--granted this was in response to chairs--but note that it is people that aren't lio... trying to move town's attention and focus to a specific direction


Now the real question is thus:

Does lio's early day2 behavior--where I think he is trying to move town's attention to a specific area: ie spiritbears, mail-mi, yuma--match up with what I think scum would look like day1?

notes about day1:

 - self-referencing LVS - I've metnioned this before
 - I found his vote and then him saying that he noticed the "VT-slip" but didn't want to say anything about it to be off.
 - he was one of the players that I felt off for joining onto the mail-mi wagon, which I still think was an "easy" wagon. Remember the other player there was nkirbit... who I ultimately voted for after rereading both nkirbit and lio. But just because one player was town, doesn't invalidate that I felt like it would be a good place for mafia to jump onto.
 - lamenting a lack of support on mcmc when he never really pushed it--but used it as a justification for moving to mail-mi... I hadn't noticed it before, but it stands out now.
 - he started into the spiritbears case mid-day1. Again if I am scum and lio, when I see spiritbears hammer, I shout "Yippie! Someone I already have a scum read on did something pretty ridiculous that I think I can spin a scummy! Easy day2 lynch coming up. Mylo here we come!"
- he initially was reading nkiribt a bit scummy, but his ulitmate reason for not voting for him was "his reaction felt genuine." To me this is a classic reason for not voting someone as scum. Don't have to justify it, just say his reaction felt real... it is especially easy if you know someone's alignment, because it was real!

So yeah, I feel good about this vote.

Lio is what I would expect from scum. Trying to manipulate subtly the direction of town, staying mostly out of the limelight. Picking his fights and arguments carefully, setting up mislynches for the next day...

Right now I feel town on voltaire and mcmc.

middling on townside: mail-mi and chairs and spiritbears

null: robz

scum: lio.

I don't know who lio's partner could be and wouldn't really feel comfortable trying to pinpoint that down right now. Robz is possible, so is chairs. Others I think less likely.

[yuma]

sorry that ended up being longer than I intended...

Things to especially pay attention to... the summary below all the quotes and the summary of day1 activity.

[liopoil]

on SB - I am having second thoughts. His arguements before leaving really sounded to me like the town!SB from disputes in previous games. The main reason I think he's scum is the hammer. I don't think that he would do something that bad for town as town. But nobody agrees with me on this it seems, everyone thinks he would and did do it. I guess it's pointless for me to continue pushing it, because it isn't going to happen. even if he is scum, he's got a buddy out there. I'll go look for that buddy, and maybe I'm wrong and he is town, then I've got two people to look for!

(note: I'm not gonna do stuff like "I think player X is scum because it makes sense that he's SB's partner", because that's stupid.)

PPE: yuma

[liopoil]

Alright, what struck me as scummy was how lio was trying to set the tone and the mood of the town in each new post at the beginning of day. It wasn't very blatant, it was subtle, but it is certainly there. He is coming into this day with an agenda and trying to move town toward a specific goal, a specific direction... scum does that. Not town.

nope nope nope.

Yes, I was leading town a bit. you do that all the time Yuma, you lead us right into that D1 mislynch. (whether or not you knew it was a mislynch remains to be seen). leading town isn't scummy, you know that. and this is something I have done before. See my first post of D3 in mean girls, where I totally set the agenda for town, prepared that post in the night even, and was town.

[liopoil]

First post:

ugh. Vote: Spiritbears for that hammer! I hate hammers like that. Yes, I know nkirbit had already said he wasn't going to claim. However, you have to state intent and wait for something. I was planning to read nkirbit, and I never got a chance to do that. It was possible that maybe I would find nkirbit to be clearly town, and could maybe have prevented a mislynch. This is why I sometimes freak out when people get to L-1, because things like this are disasterous.

pretty obvious, let's look at spiritbears.

Sidenote: I am in the camp that doesn't find spiritbears scummy for what he did. To me it was very similar to the way he voted at the end of mean girls... pretty abruptly and certainly not at a point when the conversation was over. His vote was more about himself being frustrated with nkirbit and making up his mind... and typically when spiritbears makes up his mind, it is made (he knows this, we know this... so yeah, why not just go ahead and hammer.) I don't like it, but that is the way it is.

But for lio--if he is scum--it is the perfect route to go. And the easiest. And if I am scum, I am also going to go down this route, because hey... why not? It is potentially a pretty easy mislynch.

hmmm, that's a very interesting assessment of spiritbears. That is a good point.

sure, I might go for something like this if I was scum and SB town. but if I'm scum, I want a mislynch. And this clearly is not a mislynch I could get through. I don't want to push a lynch that nobody supports at this point, because it just makes it more likely for myself or my partner to be lynched. No, I would go for a lynch on somebody who already had suspicion on them.

[mail-mi]

I like yumas case on liopoil. However, we do still have a lot of time, and we don't need to quicklynch lio, so i will place a tentative vote: liopoil

[liopoil]

Next:

Another thing I dislike: when town forgets dead conf!townies' reads. So here are nkirbit's final reads:

Reads, scum to town:

Mcmc
Mail-Mi
Robz
Yuma
Lio
SB
Voltaire

I'm forgetting someone, but they're probably in the middle since they don't bring up much thoughts.

He forgets Chairs in this list. anyway, let's keep these in mind.

Again he is directing out thoughts for us. "Hey, let's not forget what the dead townie thought!!! Oh and by the way he thought I was town. Just FYI."

Note here that nkirbit had a town read on spiritbears--because I know someone else will bring it up--and I already know what lio's answer would be... "Well nkirbit at that time didn't know that spiritbears would vote for him, if he did, his scum read on him would have gone up." Fair enough, but really the point is that we are moving in a direction that lio is dictating from the outset.

That was in no way my motive in posting that. I hate it when people forget about dead townies. It's happened to me several times in which I was NKed, especially mean girls, where nobody listened to me about Yuma being scum and he was. man, that one still burns. So I want to do for nkirbit what I would want done for myself once I'm a dead townie - that we take a closer look at the people on top of the list.

actually, as it happens, that's not my answer. nkirbit posted that in twilight, after the hammer. So actually, yes, that does give me even more reservations about SB.

[liopoil]

I like yumas case on liopoil. However, we do still have a lot of time, and we don't need to quicklynch lio, so i will place a tentative vote: liopoil

c'mon mail-mi. think for yourself!

[liopoil]

Next post: not a direction one, but a nice little public relations boost about PRs...

I'll say this right now: let's skip all the silly speculation about why there wasn't a kill. If you're a PR, use your own judgement on when to say anything. Use good judgement though . We have nothing to gain by discussing it further, and scum has stuff to gain in terms of figuring out who the PRs are.

again another post that is moving us in a certain direction:

Well, that could have gone better.  I'm still on limited access until about 36 hours from now. What can we glean from this? Who pushed this Wagon hardest, etc

I think it make spiritbears look really scummy because of his flip on nkirbit. Seems like scum who was like "I'm gonna be off-wagon, this'll be awesome!" then, "oh no, this mislynch might not go through without me. I really just want to get to night and mislynch townies, so I'll "change my mind"".

It also makes whoever was the alternative wagon(s) look bad. So that's Yuma, and maybe mail-mi/chairs right?

So if not spiritbears, who else could be an easy mislynch--granted this was in response to chairs--but note that it is people that aren't lio... trying to move town's attention and focus to a specific direction

leading town isn't scummy! I've done it, you've done it..... as both alignments!

[liopoil]

notes about day1:

 - self-referencing LVS - I've metnioned this before
 - I found his vote and then him saying that he noticed the "VT-slip" but didn't want to say anything about it to be off.
 - he was one of the players that I felt off for joining onto the mail-mi wagon, which I still think was an "easy" wagon. Remember the other player there was nkirbit... who I ultimately voted for after rereading both nkirbit and lio. But just because one player was town, doesn't invalidate that I felt like it would be a good place for mafia to jump onto.
 - lamenting a lack of support on mcmc when he never really pushed it--but used it as a justification for moving to mail-mi... I hadn't noticed it before, but it stands out now.
 - he started into the spiritbears case mid-day1. Again if I am scum and lio, when I see spiritbears hammer, I shout "Yippie! Someone I already have a scum read on did something pretty ridiculous that I think I can spin a scummy! Easy day2 lynch coming up. Mylo here we come!"
- he initially was reading nkiribt a bit scummy, but his ulitmate reason for not voting for him was "his reaction felt genuine." To me this is a classic reason for not voting someone as scum. Don't have to justify it, just say his reaction felt real... it is especially easy if you know someone's alignment, because it was real!

So yeah, I feel good about this vote.

Lio is what I would expect from scum. Trying to manipulate subtly the direction of town, staying mostly out of the limelight. Picking his fights and arguments carefully, setting up mislynches for the next day...

I don't know who lio's partner could be and wouldn't really feel comfortable trying to pinpoint that down right now. Robz is possible, so is chairs. Others I think less likely.

wow, so all those fancy quotes, all from D2, and then just this about D1? you're the one who's always advocating re-reading previous days!

I never really made up my mind on nkirbit. the hammer came while I was away, I was planning to re-read him. I could possibly have been the hammer instead, or maybe I would have staunchly defended him, I am not sure, I never did re-read him. That's an example of an interaction which was lost in the pre-mature ending to the day.

[shraeye]

Vote Count 2.3

spiritbears (1): liopoil
liopoil (3): yuma, mcmcsalot, spiritbears
mcmcsalot (1): Robz
Robz (1): chairs

Not voting: mail-mi, Voltaire

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 11am forum time on Wednesday, July 15th

[liopoil]

Shraeye, are we getting a replacement for spiritbears....?

[shraeye]

This is being worked on, please continue as normal for now.

[liopoil]

meh, Unvote for now.

we're in bad shape people.

[liopoil]

mail-mi, you have 4 (four!!) posts today. Any reads besides liking yuma's case?

[mail-mi]

mail-mi, you have 4 (four!!) posts today. Any reads besides liking yuma's case?

Yep. Sad that SB is gone, mcmc sounds (reads? looks?) like his town self, I get chairs vote on Robz he's a slight scum read for me too, null for yuma and volt, chairs is newbie town-ish, and i am town.

I think that's everyone.

[shraeye]

Eevee is now replacing spiritbears.  But busy times are busy, so give that poor soul some time to catch up, yes?

[Eevee]

Hi guys! I haven't been reading much, maybe I should start with just day 2 to get to the swing of things faster?

[liopoil]

maybe read D2 first, but I mean, you should probably read D1 eventually...

[Voltaire]

Both yuma and Robz are finding people scummy for things they themselves are doing.

[Voltaire]

Also hello Eevee! If you've dropped in as town that should be a great help to us. 

[Robz888]

You and mcmc were clearly following yuma's vote, which carried no explanation. Mcmc's quick justification of the sheeping rings false to me. You, I tihnk, are merely wrong.

I hate to feel like I'm tunneling Robz, but this is another post that just struck my "You don't seem as though you should necessarily be that concise" nerve.  Why does mcmc sound bad when SB just sounds wrong (and admittedly perhaps a bit stubborn)?  Your lack of deep explanation makes this post somewhat less than beneficial, I think (I welcome and encourage disagreement/critique here) and continues your slide towards scum!Robz in my mind.

Because SB is SB and mcmc is mcmc. No, honestly. SB is very often wrong and his cases poorly founded and I don't take what he is saying seriously, and I just assume him to be wrong town. Interestingly enough, I told him to act that way when we were scum together before the reset, so perhaps he's faking, but I was assuming he's just wrong town.

Mcmc, though, I value what he says a bit more, and so yes I find him scummy for that when I didn't find SB for that. The same things don't apply to the same people.

[Robz888]

I don't find yuma's case on lio compelling. He's quite wrong to think SB scummy for the hammer (probably), but that seems like a reasonable reaction, if not the correct one. The rest of the things, you list them, but they don't read scum to me.

[Robz888]

Both yuma and Robz are finding people scummy for things they themselves are doing.

Like what?

[Robz888]

And also, again, the number of people willing to just do what yuma says is staggering. We can add mail-mi to that last. At least he let yuma make the case first, I guess.

[Robz888]

Lastly, having Eevee sub in is a nice win for town. I think he's substantially more likely to be town than anyone else, since SB was yeah, probably town. This is very good.

Eevee! They are all listening to yuma. Just look. EVERYBODY is sheeping yuma. He's a wonderful guy, I really like him, but there's no way he's right if everyone is just going along with him. If he's not scum himself, certainly the scum are hanging on his every word.

Tell the world how right I am. Thanks.

[yuma]

Eevee! They are all listening to yuma. Just look. EVERYBODY is sheeping yuma. He's a wonderful guy, I really like him, but there's no way he's right if everyone is just going along with him. If he's not scum himself, certainly the scum are hanging on his every word.

Tell the world how right I am. Thanks.

I agree... well not everyone is sheeping me. Voltaire isn't. You aren't. Lio obviously isn't. Chairs isn't. Eevee... well we will see what he thinks.

So there is mail-mi, mcmc and spiritbears (who is now eevee) so everyone is an exaggeration. But the point you make remains. Yesterday was just people waiting around for me to make cases and then voting because of them.

I mean, it is gratifying that people think my cases are good. Obvioulsy the one on nkiribit wasn't. I don't know if the one on lio is or not. I will go read his responses and see what comes of them.

Ultimately I am trying to change up how I read people and try and go about this differently, because aside from a really solid case on WinterSpartan in Ninjas, calling out archetype in bankers and a somewhat lucky, but still really solid case on Dsell in the Blitz game, I haven't had the best of luck as of late and part of that is because I think I am calling out weird behavior as opposed to mafia play.

But at the same time balancing that out with what we have been talking about with Galz and his being frustrated that the more active players are the ones that make noise and thus get lynched...

So somwhere I am trying to find mafia that is playing a sophisticated game--because I think everyone here is capable of playing a sophisticated game--that isn't obviously scummy, but also isn't obviously town. Nkirbit I felt fell into that category and I think lio might as well. I was wrong about nkirbit. I hope I am not about lio.

[yuma]

Alright, what struck me as scummy was how lio was trying to set the tone and the mood of the town in each new post at the beginning of day. It wasn't very blatant, it was subtle, but it is certainly there. He is coming into this day with an agenda and trying to move town toward a specific goal, a specific direction... scum does that. Not town.

nope nope nope.

Yes, I was leading town a bit. you do that all the time Yuma, you lead us right into that D1 mislynch. (whether or not you knew it was a mislynch remains to be seen). leading town isn't scummy, you know that. and this is something I have done before. See my first post of D3 in mean girls, where I totally set the agenda for town, prepared that post in the night even, and was town.

I am not saying that leading town is scummy. It is null. What I am finding scummy is a concerted effort by you to get us to look away from you specifically. Your first posts of the day were very direct and very forceful.

Your point about mean girls is valid. Maybe it is because I tend to not do that. I don't create posts beforehand as town... I do that as mafia. Almost always I do that as mafia, because as mafia I am paranoid and need to create posts, or at least the basic outlines and thoughts of posts, before that I can fall back during crunch time. But very, very rarely as town. Really the only time I make a post beforehand are start of day post counts. So for you to do that and just come out of the gates swinging makes it look like you have an established game plan that you have thought through. I see it as a scummier move than a townier one.

[yuma]

First post:

ugh. Vote: Spiritbears for that hammer! I hate hammers like that. Yes, I know nkirbit had already said he wasn't going to claim. However, you have to state intent and wait for something. I was planning to read nkirbit, and I never got a chance to do that. It was possible that maybe I would find nkirbit to be clearly town, and could maybe have prevented a mislynch. This is why I sometimes freak out when people get to L-1, because things like this are disasterous.

pretty obvious, let's look at spiritbears.

Sidenote: I am in the camp that doesn't find spiritbears scummy for what he did. To me it was very similar to the way he voted at the end of mean girls... pretty abruptly and certainly not at a point when the conversation was over. His vote was more about himself being frustrated with nkirbit and making up his mind... and typically when spiritbears makes up his mind, it is made (he knows this, we know this... so yeah, why not just go ahead and hammer.) I don't like it, but that is the way it is.

But for lio--if he is scum--it is the perfect route to go. And the easiest. And if I am scum, I am also going to go down this route, because hey... why not? It is potentially a pretty easy mislynch.

hmmm, that's a very interesting assessment of spiritbears. That is a good point.

sure, I might go for something like this if I was scum and SB town. but if I'm scum, I want a mislynch. And this clearly is not a mislynch I could get through. I don't want to push a lynch that nobody supports at this point, because it just makes it more likely for myself or my partner to be lynched. No, I would go for a lynch on somebody who already had suspicion on them.

I don't understand this point.

You say that spiritbears isn't a lynch you could get through. Right now. Yes it probably isn't going to happen with the way people have spoken out against it since the beginning of day2.

But I am not talking about now. I am talking about your first few posts of the game. At that point, if you are mafia, you wouldn't have thought that spiritbears would have been a hard lynch to get through. I think mafia would think it a rather easy one, and one that is at least worth trying to push through. You wouldn't know whether the support was there or not until you tried it.

And if you do get support for a spiritbears mislynch you and your partner would be less likely to be lynched, because the focus wouldn't be on the two of you, it would be on spiritbears.

Look, in my scum QT with eevee we talked about this specifically in Mean Girls. We said, if we can keep the topic of conversation away from the two of us we will win. If we can make them talk instead about each other, and keep the focus away from us, we will win, because they will be so busy arguining with themselves they won't pay any attention to us. And this worked. We put the focus on xeiron and on mail-mi aggressively and from the start of days. And I see similar behavior here where you are trying to set the tone for the rest of the day. And the tone you wanted to set was spiritbears as mafia. You. Who says you hold your vote in reserve and doesn't use it early, used it very, very early. Like first post of the game early. You really wanted to establish something, set the mood and tone of the day.

[yuma]

Next:

Another thing I dislike: when town forgets dead conf!townies' reads. So here are nkirbit's final reads:

Reads, scum to town:

Mcmc
Mail-Mi
Robz
Yuma
Lio
SB
Voltaire

I'm forgetting someone, but they're probably in the middle since they don't bring up much thoughts.

He forgets Chairs in this list. anyway, let's keep these in mind.

Again he is directing out thoughts for us. "Hey, let's not forget what the dead townie thought!!! Oh and by the way he thought I was town. Just FYI."

Note here that nkirbit had a town read on spiritbears--because I know someone else will bring it up--and I already know what lio's answer would be... "Well nkirbit at that time didn't know that spiritbears would vote for him, if he did, his scum read on him would have gone up." Fair enough, but really the point is that we are moving in a direction that lio is dictating from the outset.

That was in no way my motive in posting that. I hate it when people forget about dead townies. It's happened to me several times in which I was NKed, especially mean girls, where nobody listened to me about Yuma being scum and he was. man, that one still burns. So I want to do for nkirbit what I would want done for myself once I'm a dead townie - that we take a closer look at the people on top of the list.

actually, as it happens, that's not my answer. nkirbit posted that in twilight, after the hammer. So actually, yes, that does give me even more reservations about SB.

These are valid points. sorry I didn't realize that nkirbit posted this after the hammer. I guess I just very rarely want to use the reads of dead townies. They aren't any better than my reads--in fact they are probably worse because they didn't know my alignment. I think I have only done it once aggressively--way back when, when voltgloss was still around, I sheeped his read right into a major mislynch in the first pirates game.

[yuma]

notes about day1:

 - self-referencing LVS - I've metnioned this before
 - I found his vote and then him saying that he noticed the "VT-slip" but didn't want to say anything about it to be off.
 - he was one of the players that I felt off for joining onto the mail-mi wagon, which I still think was an "easy" wagon. Remember the other player there was nkirbit... who I ultimately voted for after rereading both nkirbit and lio. But just because one player was town, doesn't invalidate that I felt like it would be a good place for mafia to jump onto.
 - lamenting a lack of support on mcmc when he never really pushed it--but used it as a justification for moving to mail-mi... I hadn't noticed it before, but it stands out now.
 - he started into the spiritbears case mid-day1. Again if I am scum and lio, when I see spiritbears hammer, I shout "Yippie! Someone I already have a scum read on did something pretty ridiculous that I think I can spin a scummy! Easy day2 lynch coming up. Mylo here we come!"
- he initially was reading nkiribt a bit scummy, but his ulitmate reason for not voting for him was "his reaction felt genuine." To me this is a classic reason for not voting someone as scum. Don't have to justify it, just say his reaction felt real... it is especially easy if you know someone's alignment, because it was real!

So yeah, I feel good about this vote.

Lio is what I would expect from scum. Trying to manipulate subtly the direction of town, staying mostly out of the limelight. Picking his fights and arguments carefully, setting up mislynches for the next day...

I don't know who lio's partner could be and wouldn't really feel comfortable trying to pinpoint that down right now. Robz is possible, so is chairs. Others I think less likely.

wow, so all those fancy quotes, all from D2, and then just this about D1? you're the one who's always advocating re-reading previous days!

I never really made up my mind on nkirbit. the hammer came while I was away, I was planning to re-read him. I could possibly have been the hammer instead, or maybe I would have staunchly defended him, I am not sure, I never did re-read him. That's an example of an interaction which was lost in the pre-mature ending to the day.

I don't see what the problem is here... I am not going to make a huge, gigant post that no one can read full of unnecessary quotes. I pulled quotes from day2 because they were all in a nice pretty line at the beginning of day2. And I did reread. I reread all of you from day1. These are the things that I found, because my goal was to see if your behavior fit what I thought might look like scum!lio from day1. And to an extent it did. But most of my case is how you came out of the gates with an agenda day2

[mcmcsalot]

I like yumas case on liopoil. However, we do still have a lot of time, and we don't need to quicklynch lio, so i will place a tentative vote: liopoil

Not a fan of this, I would rather you vote. If people quick hammer they do so. I mean I think it's really hurtful to town to announce all their intentions and let scum play around it. Remember scum is looking for places to jump in and look townie.

[Voltaire]

Next:

Another thing I dislike: when town forgets dead conf!townies' reads. So here are nkirbit's final reads:

Reads, scum to town:

Mcmc
Mail-Mi
Robz
Yuma
Lio
SB
Voltaire

I'm forgetting someone, but they're probably in the middle since they don't bring up much thoughts.

He forgets Chairs in this list. anyway, let's keep these in mind.

Again he is directing out thoughts for us. "Hey, let's not forget what the dead townie thought!!! Oh and by the way he thought I was town. Just FYI."

I love nkirbit's reads - he has me as the most town! 

yuma, I find your case on lio lacking to the point of useless. Unless you have more information, it certainly has not convinced me to even find lio scummy, let alone vote him.

Both yuma and Robz are finding people scummy for things they themselves are doing.

Like what?

Yuma accusing lio of being scummy for leading the town (and then clarifying that's not what he meant), and you for offering short, strong posts that tend towards hyperbole (and actually, looking back, you did not actually call people scummy for this). So I should clarify that what I find scummy about you is that you tend towards short, firm posts that seem like they must be overconfident and frequently contain hyperbole, like

Eevee! They are all listening to yuma. Just look. EVERYBODY is sheeping yuma. He's a wonderful guy, I really like him, but there's no way he's right if everyone is just going along with him. If he's not scum himself, certainly the scum are hanging on his every word.

which is either not-ideal town play or scum hoping nobody calls you on it. I have a soft scum-read on you, a soft one on yuma, and either null or town on everyone else. (I am not calling a team)

I like yumas case on liopoil. However, we do still have a lot of time, and we don't need to quicklynch lio, so i will place a tentative vote: liopoil

mail-mi, your play has been very frustrating. It's posts like this that are just sheeping, and that is 90% of your very few posts this game, that make me agree with nkirbit's case on you. Yet it seems just too darn obvious for you to be scum, so under the assumption you're town: please step up your game, town needs your help. Give us some original reads, do some scumhunting. Or else I will have to think about voting you.

More later. I should be able to post much more today.

[Voltaire]

yuma, I find your case on lio lacking to the point of useless. Unless you have more information, it certainly has not convinced me to even find lio scummy, let alone vote him.

I do want to clarify I'm glad that yuma has made this case - regardless of his alignment, I view this as effective scumhunting. It firmed up my town read on lio, so that is fantastic. And that does make it helpful play by yuma for town (me).

[yuma]

yuma, I find your case on lio lacking to the point of useless. Unless you have more information, it certainly has not convinced me to even find lio scummy, let alone vote him.

Ok. That is fair, but remember that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything at this point. Right now I think lio is the best person for me to vote for... hence my vote and if we had to lynch right this second he would be the best person to lynch right this second. But we don't have to lynch right this second. All I am doing is putting what I find to be scummy out there and seeing what other people think. A couple people agree, a couple people disagree. That is to be expected. Like I said the day before either lio's case will grow and develop (not necessarily by people joining it, but by his behavior in response to it and others) or it will die off and I (as well as everyone else) will have to look elsewhere... That is mafia. So don't call it useless. It has a purpose and the purpose is finding scum. It might be looking in the wrong direction, it might not be in the wrong direction, but it isn't useless.

If it really is useless then I give up and will just stop posting. Because that is really useless.

[yuma]

Ha! Ok... I won't stop posting...

[Voltaire]

yuma, I find your case on lio lacking to the point of useless. Unless you have more information, it certainly has not convinced me to even find lio scummy, let alone vote him.

Ok. That is fair, but remember that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything at this point. Right now I think lio is the best person for me to vote for... hence my vote and if we had to lynch right this second he would be the best person to lynch right this second. But we don't have to lynch right this second. All I am doing is putting what I find to be scummy out there and seeing what other people think. A couple people agree, a couple people disagree. That is to be expected. Like I said the day before either lio's case will grow and develop (not necessarily by people joining it, but by his behavior in response to it and others) or it will die off and I (as well as everyone else) will have to look elsewhere... That is mafia. So don't call it useless. It has a purpose and the purpose is finding scum. It might be looking in the wrong direction, it might not be in the wrong direction, but it isn't useless.

If it really is useless then I give up and will just stop posting. Because that is really useless.

See my post above - it was constructive!

PPE: Ok, we understand each other.

[yuma]

See my post above - it was constructive!

PPE: Ok, we understand each other.

can I ask what you didn't like about it?

[Voltaire]

See my post above - it was constructive!

PPE: Ok, we understand each other.

can I ask what you didn't like about it?

Yes!

So, leading the town can be used by both scum and town, so null read (which you yourself later clarified, though I did take your initial case to be that scum leads and that you then backed off that statement).

I find nothing scummy about him posting nkirbit's reads since they came after the hammer.

I find it good town-play to discourage PR speculation after the no-kill, given that we have several town(?) members that I could see speculating about that sort of thing in an unhelpful way.

I view voting sb as town very legitimately being frustrated at sb ending the day too early, and though policy-lynches are amazing cover for scum they're also pro-town in the long run, so null read for me. Certainly not scum read.

And then I find your analysis of his D1 behavior to be weak (as far as making a scum case is concerned) - ie being on the mail-mi wagon I think was scummy at the time, but as we've seen nkirbit was there too. And also I'm warming to scum!mail-mi myself a bit (want to explore this more).

And lio's reason for backing off nkirbit was the same as mine - nkirbit acquitted himself of his wagon quite well. It's not really a logical case, it is a sort of gut-feel sort of thing. So if that's scum!lio, then it's something town can do as well since town!Voltaire did it.

Basically lio has replaced mcmc as my one "confident" town read today. Which isn't that great when you think about it. I'd like to mostly trust more than two people.

[Voltaire]

Here's something that we should be paying more attention to: the D1 final votes!

mail-mi (1): nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
nkirbit (5): mail-mi, Robz888, mcmcsalot, yuma, spiritbears
yuma (1): Voltaire

Not voting: liopoil

[yuma]

Here's something that we should be paying more attention to: the D1 final votes!

mail-mi (1): nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
nkirbit (5): mail-mi, Robz888, mcmcsalot, yuma, spiritbears
yuma (1): Voltaire

Not voting: liopoil

and what does it tell us?

[Voltaire]

Here's something that we should be paying more attention to: the D1 final votes!

mail-mi (1): nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
nkirbit (5): mail-mi, Robz888, mcmcsalot, yuma, spiritbears
yuma (1): Voltaire

Not voting: liopoil

and what does it tell us?

I'm not sure yet! I'm just scum town trying to lead the town.

But I mean the entire point of why it's ok to lynch town is for wagon information. I'm not seeing that many cases based on our final wagon, I'd like people to think about it more.

[Eevee]

I expect to be fully caught up and ready to rumble within the next 7 hours. Sorry for the wait.

[yuma]

some comments on this:

- I don't think I ever said that leading was scummy. Leading itself isn't scummy, it is scummy in my opinion when it is towards a specific goal with a clear objective in mind. Right out of the gates lio had a game plan and I think scum more often than not has a game plan whereas town... not so much because they don't have a QT or buddies to talk things through with and make one.

- stopping PR discussion is null. You can't give out town points for it. Scum will say it, town will say it. I am glad it was said, but I don't give any credit to lio at all for being the first to say it....

- policy votes are rarely ever pro-town. I can't think of any policy vote that turned into a lynch. In the long run? I don't care about the long run... Sorry, but I don't. I want to win this game. I don't know how much longer I will be playing mafia and ultimately this game matters more than the next 10! Because I am in this game, I don't know if I will be in the next one.

- my analysis of day1 wasn't meant to stand alone. I didn't do the reread that way. I just went back and saw if lio's play in day1 matched up with what I thought scum might do. And it did. But most of my stuff that I am suspicious about him is day2 stuff. If I had gone back and was like !!!Wow! lio was really pro-town day1, then that would negate my stuff from day2 a bit. But I didn't. I found him on the slightlier scummy side from day1. combine that with day2 stuff and you have my case.

- two points in one. The fact that nkiribit was town and did the same things as lio doesn't make me see lio as townie. No, the opposite. Because I have had from my own experience seen how scum mimics town in their reads and behavior. So if one player is town for doing somethign and another player is doign something almost exactly the same, I wonder is that player scum? Are they shadowing, mimicing, replicating behavior by town that they know to be town to seem more town? So that he was the same as nkiribit doesn't necessarily make him more townie, nor that he had similar reads to you (who I think is more townie than lio).

One last thing that I forgot to mention when lio used the following quote:

I think it make spiritbears look really scummy because of his flip on nkirbit. Seems like scum who was like "I'm gonna be off-wagon, this'll be awesome!" then, "oh no, this mislynch might not go through without me. I really just want to get to night and mislynch townies, so I'll "change my mind"".

It also makes whoever was the alternative wagon(s) look bad. So that's Yuma, and maybe mail-mi/chairs right?

it isn't exact, but again it is similar to something eevee and ash and I did in mean girls. There we basically said, "do we really think we were completely off day1? Do we really think that all three wagons that we developed were all on town? What are the odds of that!!! Not very likely!!" All in an attempt to frame mail-mi. And it worked. I see this as a similar attitude. "Well nkiribit was wrong... must be because we were right about someone else, cause there is no way we were that totally off day1!"

[yuma]

Here's something that we should be paying more attention to: the D1 final votes!

mail-mi (1): nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
nkirbit (5): mail-mi, Robz888, mcmcsalot, yuma, spiritbears
yuma (1): Voltaire

Not voting: liopoil

and what does it tell us?

I'm not sure yet! I'm just scum town trying to lead the town.

But I mean the entire point of why it's ok to lynch town is for wagon information. I'm not seeing that many cases based on our final wagon, I'd like people to think about it more.

well sure, good old fashioned wagon analysis... I can appreciate that, but your quote wasn't analysis... just the vote count.  So I thought you had done some, but if you haven't yet I would love to hear some.

So generally we think of one on/one off right? It is a bit harder to analyze with out a night kill--although those are always full of WIFOM, but still--not that I am upset about not having a night kill.

I dont' think we want to go into trying to figure out who was the NK target... that just opens up a can of worms I think that is best left closed... so we are left with just the wagon to analyze.

I do find it interesting that robz is calling people out for sheeping me today, when he kinda sheeped me yesterday... Anyone find that compelling?

[Voltaire]

It's not the worst case in the world, just not enough to convince me to vote lio (or find him scummy). But it gives you some towncred for scumhunting.

If you're town, I just have to hope I can make a more compelling case and you'll switch away to avoid you voting for a town read of mine.

[Voltaire]

I do find it interesting that robz is calling people out for sheeping me today, when he kinda sheeped me yesterday... Anyone find that compelling?

Is that what I was talking about when I said he was being scum!hypocritical? Only if he was kinda sheeping you yesterday...I don't remember if he was. All I remember is he wasn't willing to vote for you.

[Voltaire]

One last thing that I forgot to mention when lio used the following quote:

I think it make spiritbears look really scummy because of his flip on nkirbit. Seems like scum who was like "I'm gonna be off-wagon, this'll be awesome!" then, "oh no, this mislynch might not go through without me. I really just want to get to night and mislynch townies, so I'll "change my mind"".

It also makes whoever was the alternative wagon(s) look bad. So that's Yuma, and maybe mail-mi/chairs right?

[snip mean girls example] "Well nkiribit was wrong... must be because we were right about someone else, cause there is no way we were that totally off day1!"

Well, to me I'm willing to look at mail-mi (unhelpful town play), you (inscrutable), and chairs (lurking? but maybe V/LA) anyway, so it doesn't strike me as suspicious. We'll see what lio has to say about the three of them, if anything.

[yuma]

I do find it interesting that robz is calling people out for sheeping me today, when he kinda sheeped me yesterday... Anyone find that compelling?

Is that what I was talking about when I said he was being scum!hypocritical? Only if he was kinda sheeping you yesterday...I don't remember if he was. All I remember is he wasn't willing to vote for you.

This is when he voted for nkiribt, you tell me if you think it was sheepy. I mean it isn't in the strict definition of sheepy because that is just saying "yuma, made a good case. vote: soandso" Here robz goes into it a bit more--which happens, because for anyone to get lynched people need to be second and third in line on a wagon or you would just have a bunch of one vote wagons--but it really isn't him bringing up compelling information, but rather saying that my information had merit. So it isn't exactly what robz is saying the others did, but there certainly is a similarity...

Definitely, definitely agree on the nkirbit case. I like it better than your case on mail-mi, mail-mi just feels like a mislynch, right? For most of IRL today, I felt like we were headed toward a mail-mi lynch, and that I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him flip town.

The nkirbit case is much better. And he's a smart guy, he plays like a smart guy, and I think he would play scum sort of fairly competently (from his perspective) but might still get caught by someone like you or me, who knows what to look for in a newbie scum.

Do I like it better than my chairs case? I guess so.

Vote: nkirbit

[yuma]

One last thing that I forgot to mention when lio used the following quote:

I think it make spiritbears look really scummy because of his flip on nkirbit. Seems like scum who was like "I'm gonna be off-wagon, this'll be awesome!" then, "oh no, this mislynch might not go through without me. I really just want to get to night and mislynch townies, so I'll "change my mind"".

It also makes whoever was the alternative wagon(s) look bad. So that's Yuma, and maybe mail-mi/chairs right?

[snip mean girls example] "Well nkiribit was wrong... must be because we were right about someone else, cause there is no way we were that totally off day1!"

Well, to me I'm willing to look at mail-mi (unhelpful town play), you (inscrutable), and chairs (lurking? but maybe V/LA) anyway, so it doesn't strike me as suspicious. We'll see what lio has to say about the three of them, if anything.

willing to look, yes, absolutely and maybe that is all lio was saying about it. But I felt that with the context of the other posts he was establishing the tone for the day in forcing the focus to be on me, mail-mi and spiritbears. I know I am town and I see the other two as the two easiest potential mislynches going into day and if I were scum and they weren't my scum buddies I would be trying for their mislynch because it would have the appearance of an easy mislynch...

And really if I weren't calling out lio on this (if I had died during the night and couldn't post), what would you guys be talking about? Probably more about spiritbears and mail-mi and how scummy they are...

[Voltaire]

And really if I weren't calling out lio on this (if I had died during the night and couldn't post), what would you guys be talking about? Probably more about spiritbears and mail-mi and how scummy they are...

And so you think mail-mi and sb/eevee are town?

[yuma]

And really if I weren't calling out lio on this (if I had died during the night and couldn't post), what would you guys be talking about? Probably more about spiritbears and mail-mi and how scummy they are...

And so you think mail-mi and sb/eevee are town?

I think if they are, they are the easier mislynches out of everyone around... or at least they were.

I think I lean townier on both of them.

[Voltaire]

And really if I weren't calling out lio on this (if I had died during the night and couldn't post), what would you guys be talking about? Probably more about spiritbears and mail-mi and how scummy they are...

And so you think mail-mi and sb/eevee are town?

I think if they are, they are the easier mislynches out of everyone around... or at least they were.

I think I lean townier on both of them.

Reasonable.

[liopoil]

I don't want to look at mail-mi. I am frustrated with his play, but don't really want to lynch him. I will re-read some other people today though.

That post by robz isn't sheeping in the same sense that mail-mi is. mcmc sheeped Yuma similarly to Robz did D1 though (sheeping is the wrong word here... they were influenced by Yuma), so I do think that is a bit hypocritical of robz.

[yuma]

I don't want to look at mail-mi. I am frustrated with his play, but don't really want to lynch him. I will re-read some other people today though.

That post by robz isn't sheeping in the same sense that mail-mi is. mcmc sheeped Yuma similarly to Robz did D1 though (sheeping is the wrong word here... they were influenced by Yuma), so I do think that is a bit hypocritical of robz.

isn't that basically what I was saying?

I mean it isn't in the strict definition of sheepy because that is just saying "yuma, made a good case. vote: soandso" Here robz goes into it a bit more--which happens, because for anyone to get lynched people need to be second and third in line on a wagon or you would just have a bunch of one vote wagons--but it really isn't him bringing up compelling information, but rather saying that my information had merit. So it isn't exactly what robz is saying the others did, but there certainly is a similarity...

Robz is saying "everyone is sheeping (and he mostly means being influenced) by yuma!" Panic!

But day1 he was "influenced" by yuma as well. I don't think it is bad to be influenced by me to an extent. I am town and trying to scum hunt. But I do find it interesting that Robz is so panicked about following me when he kinda did the same thing himself. What is different this time around? Is it just that it is others, rather than himself that are following to an extent, or is there something else that has him worried (for example... is lio his partner and he is trying to manipulate town into not following me by calling them out for "sheeping"? Not saying this is the case, but it is a thought...)

[liopoil]

yes, it is. So I was agreeing with you pretty much I guess. I don't think it's too scummy though. It's a contradiction for sure, and makes me more suspicious for sure, but isn't a big deal.

[Robz888]

I don't want to look at mail-mi. I am frustrated with his play, but don't really want to lynch him. I will re-read some other people today though.

That post by robz isn't sheeping in the same sense that mail-mi is. mcmc sheeped Yuma similarly to Robz did D1 though (sheeping is the wrong word here... they were influenced by Yuma), so I do think that is a bit hypocritical of robz.

isn't that basically what I was saying?

I mean it isn't in the strict definition of sheepy because that is just saying "yuma, made a good case. vote: soandso" Here robz goes into it a bit more--which happens, because for anyone to get lynched people need to be second and third in line on a wagon or you would just have a bunch of one vote wagons--but it really isn't him bringing up compelling information, but rather saying that my information had merit. So it isn't exactly what robz is saying the others did, but there certainly is a similarity...

Robz is saying "everyone is sheeping (and he mostly means being influenced) by yuma!" Panic!

But day1 he was "influenced" by yuma as well. I don't think it is bad to be influenced by me to an extent. I am town and trying to scum hunt. But I do find it interesting that Robz is so panicked about following me when he kinda did the same thing himself. What is different this time around? Is it just that it is others, rather than himself that are following to an extent, or is there something else that has him worried (for example... is lio his partner and he is trying to manipulate town into not following me by calling them out for "sheeping"? Not saying this is the case, but it is a thought...)

You forget, I didn't follow you the first time, you had a case against someone who I didn't think was compelling, I don't remembr who at all. I would have to look. And I didn't follow you.

Then you made a really good case against someone and I followed you.

Man I can't remember Day 1.

The difference to me hear was it looked like people were just willing to fall in line behind you automatically. Oh, and I followed you after you made your case against whoever on Day 1. Mcmc and SB followed you before you even explained WHY you were suspicious of liopoil! That's some pretty heavy faith in yuma.

Also, I don't care. When I'm sheeping, it's not sheepy to me. When other people do it, it is. I can't explain it.

[yuma]

I do have to say that a large part of my feelings about lio stem from how I feel about everyone else...

Like I said before I have somewhat strong town reads on mcmc and voltaire.

mcmc I have had a bias towards town since the beginning of the game... because I think his "VT slip" was only one that town could make. But he has also played in what I would call VT fashion--somewhat disinterested (mcmc this isn't a criticism, just a commentary because I know you are busy, but I also know that when you are mafia you make it a priority to post a lot more and be more active) and lower on the activity scale in a way that reminds me much more of his town style than his scum. And when he has posted I feel like he has taken positions--although I expect mcmc to be able to do that regardless of alignment. But mostly this just looks more like Mean Girls mcmc than any scum mcmc I have yet seen. Sure he could be trying to pull of that meta as mafia, but it is the riskier route to take... Because he would--and is to an extent here (nkirbit was pretty hard on him, as has lio) for doing so.

voltaire I feel is pretty darn townie to me. He is the most interested in finding scum I think. He has solid posts, good rationale and hasn't allowed himself to be influenced by my posts. This last part is pretty important to me. It is frustrating because I think I am right obviously... but he hans't budged. I think if he is mafia he would be much more likely to eventually cave in and give into my train of thought. That would be very easy to do as mafia. Simply say "man... yuma is making some really good points and I am starting to see what he is saying..." a couple of posts later, "yeah, I think I agree with yuma... vote nkirbit or lio or whatever" but he hasn't done that. He has suspected me, but that doesn't make him scum, it makes him cautious... which is again frustrating, but hey... that is mafia.

mail-mi and spiritbears (eevee) could be mafia, but I lean more on the town side of them. I don't see spiritbears hammering and I still think both are the easier mislynches around and have reflected that by the wagons that have formed and grown on them.

Chairs is pretty much a null read. Hard to have an opinion on him when he is new and very VLA. He still seems pretty sold on the robz stuff.

Robz is next. Robz is hard to read, nuff said. No but really, most of the time I have no idea what scum robz is going to look like and the only times I have caught him out are the times that we have found his partner and then based his actions around that partner to pinpoint him as mafia. As we haven't caught mafia yet, that is a bit difficult.

Lio I think you all know where I stand. And like I said, a lot of it is based off pretty strong to relatively ok town reads on others. And it is basically a process of elimination plus what I think to be somewhat compelling evidence against him.

[Robz888]

I do have to say that a large part of my feelings about lio stem from how I feel about everyone else...

Like I said before I have somewhat strong town reads on mcmc and voltaire.

mcmc I have had a bias towards town since the beginning of the game... because I think his "VT slip" was only one that town could make. But he has also played in what I would call VT fashion--somewhat disinterested (mcmc this isn't a criticism, just a commentary because I know you are busy, but I also know that when you are mafia you make it a priority to post a lot more and be more active) and lower on the activity scale in a way that reminds me much more of his town style than his scum. And when he has posted I feel like he has taken positions--although I expect mcmc to be able to do that regardless of alignment. But mostly this just looks more like Mean Girls mcmc than any scum mcmc I have yet seen. Sure he could be trying to pull of that meta as mafia, but it is the riskier route to take... Because he would--and is to an extent here (nkirbit was pretty hard on him, as has lio) for doing so.

voltaire I feel is pretty darn townie to me. He is the most interested in finding scum I think. He has solid posts, good rationale and hasn't allowed himself to be influenced by my posts. This last part is pretty important to me. It is frustrating because I think I am right obviously... but he hans't budged. I think if he is mafia he would be much more likely to eventually cave in and give into my train of thought. That would be very easy to do as mafia. Simply say "man... yuma is making some really good points and I am starting to see what he is saying..." a couple of posts later, "yeah, I think I agree with yuma... vote nkirbit or lio or whatever" but he hasn't done that. He has suspected me, but that doesn't make him scum, it makes him cautious... which is again frustrating, but hey... that is mafia.

mail-mi and spiritbears (eevee) could be mafia, but I lean more on the town side of them. I don't see spiritbears hammering and I still think both are the easier mislynches around and have reflected that by the wagons that have formed and grown on them.

Chairs is pretty much a null read. Hard to have an opinion on him when he is new and very VLA. He still seems pretty sold on the robz stuff.

Robz is next. Robz is hard to read, nuff said. No but really, most of the time I have no idea what scum robz is going to look like and the only times I have caught him out are the times that we have found his partner and then based his actions around that partner to pinpoint him as mafia. As we haven't caught mafia yet, that is a bit difficult.

Lio I think you all know where I stand. And like I said, a lot of it is based off pretty strong to relatively ok town reads on others. And it is basically a process of elimination plus what I think to be somewhat compelling evidence against him.

I think your mcmc read is potentially a huge, huge mistake. Don't think the slip was at all something only a VT could make. Remember all the deiberate errors scum!yuma baked into his performance in Mafia XIX?

Voltaire, I don't have much either way. He could just be challenging you because you are a threat to his scum game. But, well, I probably lean town, but not strongly. He's not a lurker, I'll give him that.

Mail-mi is my biggest scum read. Seems like lurker scum mail-mi, to me.

SBEevee is obvtown.

I've actually forgotten what I thought about chairs Day 1, and have zero thoughts about him Day 2. Has he said anything?

Lio, I don't think is scum, because too many people are too excited about lynching him. And mail-mi's "Oh yeah, he's the lynch, but no rush." Really feeds into that.

Am I voting for mail-mi? I should be. Vote: mail-mi

[Robz888]

Oh, and of course, I forgot to give a read on you, that's how much you are in my head. Well, I can't really differentiate scum!yuma from town!yuma. I didn't accept you were scum!yuma in Mafia XIX until there was literally no other possibility, you will recall. I usually just assume you are town.

[liopoil]

POE yuma? when you're null on chairs, unsure on robz, and only lean town on eevee and chairs?

[Robz888]

POE yuma? when you're null on chairs, unsure on robz, and only lean town on eevee and chairs?

Well he's leaning town on mcmc and Voltaire  and mail-mi too, so that's a pretty selective reading. I think he's substantially wrong though.

[mail-mi]

I just reread loop oils defenses and I actually really like them so I will unvote. I think later today or tomorrow I will look at robs, as I think he is in the scummiest position on the wagon and I'm getting kind of a scummy read from him.

[yuma]

POE yuma? when you're null on chairs, unsure on robz, and only lean town on eevee and chairs?

try reread...

Pretty to relatively strong town on mcmc, voltaire, spiritbears and mail-mi

null on chairs

unsure on robz and scummy on you

so really I have robz, lio and chairs as my choices... I don't see what is wrong with POE here...

[yuma]

I think your mcmc read is potentially a huge, huge mistake. Don't think the slip was at all something only a VT could make. Remember all the deiberate errors scum!yuma baked into his performance in Mafia XIX?

I agree it could be potentially a mistake. And I am trying to keep that into consideration. I mean if he was doing somethings that I felt were scummy, then yeah... I would have to alter my reads. But he hasn't really. And I don't think you can really compare my deliberate erros in MXIX--remember that only one was real, the Marquis thing was completely genuine--as those I think were well... deliberate... his was the first post of the game and a very casual "slip" if it was a slip at all. We can go back and reanalyze it if we want, but from the moment I read it, I thought mcmc is probably town and nothing has made me change my mind since that. My mind is open to be changed--I am trying to not force mcmc into a townie position--but certainly hasn't been.

[liopoil]

POE yuma? when you're null on chairs, unsure on robz, and only lean town on eevee and chairs?

try reread...

Pretty to relatively strong town on mcmc, voltaire, spiritbears and mail-mi

from your post I got the sense it was only slight town on mail-mi and SB. But it doesn't really matter.

[chairs]

Scum to Chum quicklist:

Robz888 - If he's not scum I might have to eat my hat.  Mostly my gut, I guess (although I've pointed out a few things that irk me in earlier posts).

liopoil - I understand the concept of policy votes, but exceptions to rules ought to be made, and SB's behaviour certainly seemed to warrant the exception, particularly as he's almost certainly town. (Obviously this is now eevee so we'll have some fun confirming that with the new reads).

mcmcsalot - Had the initial "townslip" (I didn't feel it was as strongly pro-town as others did, but that's why we all talk about these things, right?) but is otherwise practically off my radar as just following the "strongest voice" - which is a bit scummy.

mail-mi - For some reason he's just having trouble staying on my radar.

yuma - Slight-to-moderate town, doing lots of analysis, confident posting style, encourages dissent.  Could be pretty good meta-scum play, I suppose.

Voltaire - doesn't trust Yuma, but isn't strictly tunneling anybody.  slight-to-moderate town.

eevee/spiritbears - I'm convinced (based on SB's play) that Eevee is town.  SB was so on tilt at the end that I don't see any chance that it was scum play.

[liopoil]

liopoil - I understand the concept of policy votes, but exceptions to rules ought to be made, and SB's behaviour certainly seemed to warrant the exception, particularly as he's almost certainly town. (Obviously this is now eevee so we'll have some fun confirming that with the new reads).

eevee/spiritbears - I'm convinced (based on SB's play) that Eevee is town.  SB was so on tilt at the end that I don't see any chance that it was scum play.

so you disagree with my vote. why does this make me scummy? And you are dangerously sure of yourself on eevee/SB. scum can do crazy things...

[Robz888]

Robz888 - If he's not scum I might have to eat my hat.  Mostly my gut, I guess (although I've pointed out a few things that irk me in earlier posts).

There are no hats left on the Forum Games board; people who said that exact think have gobbled them all down after being proved wrong.

I'm being cute, but seriously. I, and lots of other people, have made "this is such a for-sure thing" bets all the time and been wrong, all the all the time. Someone back me up here.

[liopoil]

it's true. mcmc was certain I was scum in mean girls and was dead wrong. He always thinks I'm scum though. I ate my hat when ashersky was town in bankers, though, I was dead, and had a false guilty result on him, which I would have realized was false if I was paying attention. In DS9 I was sure that there were only 5 scum, there were 6. In mean girls, I was sure that Yuma was scum, oh hey, he actually was. So sometimes people do get it right, but actually, usually being certain is a sign that you're wrong

I am unsure whether yuma pushing my lynch is scummy or not. I'll take a look at that.

[liopoil]

I just reread loop oils defenses and I actually really like them so I will unvote. I think later today or tomorrow I will look at robs, as I think he is in the scummiest position on the wagon and I'm getting kind of a scummy read from him.

yup, that's me, "loop oil"

scummiest person on which wagon? yours? isn't he the only one on your wagon?

[Voltaire]

I just reread loop oils defenses and I actually really like them so I will unvote. I think later today or tomorrow I will look at robs, as I think he is in the scummiest position on the wagon and I'm getting kind of a scummy read from him.

yup, that's me, "loop oil"

scummiest person on which wagon? yours? isn't he the only one on your wagon?

I assume he means nkirbit's.

[Voltaire]

Can we get the thread title changed to reflect that it's D2?

[mail-mi]

I just reread loop oils defenses and I actually really like them so I will unvote. I think later today or tomorrow I will look at robs, as I think he is in the scummiest position on the wagon and I'm getting kind of a scummy read from him.

yup, that's me, "loop oil"

scummiest person on which wagon? yours? isn't he the only one on your wagon?

I assume he means nkirbit's.

yep

[chairs]

liopoil - I understand the concept of policy votes, but exceptions to rules ought to be made, and SB's behaviour certainly seemed to warrant the exception, particularly as he's almost certainly town. (Obviously this is now eevee so we'll have some fun confirming that with the new reads).

eevee/spiritbears - I'm convinced (based on SB's play) that Eevee is town.  SB was so on tilt at the end that I don't see any chance that it was scum play.

so you disagree with my vote. why does this make me scummy? And you are dangerously sure of yourself on eevee/SB. scum can do crazy things...

I disagree with your vote and it feels like you're using a weak justification for it (albeit one that seems to line up with overall forum meta).  It's the combination.  TBH, would I lynch you today if I had to pick somebody? No.  It's not a strong enough scum-read for that in my head.  Does it feel a little scummy? Yes.

Robz888 - If he's not scum I might have to eat my hat.  Mostly my gut, I guess (although I've pointed out a few things that irk me in earlier posts).

There are no hats left on the Forum Games board; people who said that exact think have gobbled them all down after being proved wrong.

I'm being cute, but seriously. I, and lots of other people, have made "this is such a for-sure thing" bets all the time and been wrong, all the all the time. Someone back me up here.

It's okay, I brought my own   I'm honestly enjoying myself, so even if I'm wrong - hey, that just means I'm learning how you guys play, and maybe I can read you better next time, as well as learning a bit about how to not be forum dumb.  In the meantime, I'll find some steak sauce just in case.

[Eevee]

Okay, Eevee emerges.

yuma: Townread, I think is doing a lot of "useless" work, stuff that an interesting townie explores but a credithogging scum is likely to miss / not bother with.

Voltaire: Another active casebuilder, towny just based on content. No real meta read, is either a well playing townie or a hardworking mafia.

mail-mi: Oh mail-mi. Has a bunch of inconsistencies in behavior people view scummy, and seems to be willing to sheep most everything that moves. Eh, I see the case, but think scum-mailmi might maybe be trying a little harder.

chairs: Really hard to read due to relative lack of activity. I could see him as scum easily, but have nothing incriminating against him. Worried null?

liopoil: I see what yuma is "accusing" liopoil of, I do. But, lio has actually been getting it right a lot as town lately, and could really just be feeling confident about his value to town. I don't think liopoil is scum here.

mcmc: I remember very little of. Nothing sticking out is neutral maybe a tad on the scummier side I guess? I didn't read the day 1 "claim" as any sort of vt claim or townie tell. Just a musing about his thoughts of drawing JK and not getting to play it.

Hmm, I guess this is all. I don't feel I see what is what in this game clearly at all yet, hopefully it will start to get better with more discussion.

[yuma]

what about robz?

[mcmcsalot]

Eevee is obvi town

[Eevee]

what about robz?

I actually don't find him too scummy despite not suspecting you either. His worry about people sheeping you too much seems ok.

I did find his reaction to the reset scummy and weird way back when, but that's not a huge point.

[liopoil]

still don't get why eevee is obvi town.

[yuma]

Warning: about to do some theory discussion below...

I was doing some thinking for different game that I am considering hosting and started to think about "Follow the Cop" and how to prevent it. And since this game is on my mind I started thinking about it in this context... as such I realize that there may be a benefit of having a cop (if there is one) claim today.

Here is why:

- It is pretty obvious that we have either a doc or a JK because of the no-kill night.
- So this is completely dependent on us having a cop, which is what... 33% chance?
- If we have a doc then we are basically in "follow the cop" mode. Allowing the cop to investigate and divulge results each night/day and the doc to protect each night allowing the cop to live.
- If we have a JK then we aren't in "follow the cop" mode. The cop wouldn't be able to investigate if the JK jailed him, but he also wouldn't be night killed... Although in this scenario there is plenty of WIFOM for the mafia because they have to ask do they risk trying to kill the cop and having another No-kill night kill (especially because the first night they won't know whether or not we have a doc or a JK), so should the JK jail the cop? I don't know....

- There is the situation of a counter claim by mafia--or even them being the only cop claim... this is especially worrisome--but then we are just at a 50% chance of getting it right, and if we get it wrong certainly getting it right the next day. But the later situation where we don't have a cop but mafia claims cop and is the only claimant could be bad because we would all be willingly led by mafia (who we think is the cop).

- The last possibility is the worst.
- The second to last isn't as bad in that we would mislynch the cop, but still bad. But then at least we would have a correct lynch tomorrow.
- The other options of having a cop and a JK, isn't perfect, but is still pretty good because of the WIFOM implications... plus we would get a investigation result from last night that would help narrow things down today, as well as not lynching the cop today, so basically two ICs--except that if we only have one claimant it could be mafia claiming alone, but that is kinda on the risky side as if there is a cop it would guarantee a lynch of them either today or tomorrow...
- The best obviously is if we have a cop and a doc, because then we can move into "follow the cop" and hopefully use that method for the win. Of course everything falls apart if mafia gets lucky and NKs the doc or if town is really stupid and lynches the doc... So it isn't a perfect plan, hence my wondering if we should do it....

If people really don't want to discuss this, I am sorry, but I think this specific scenario is worth talking about because it could put town in an incredibly advantageous situation.

[liopoil]

SHHHHHH

I had already thought of all the above on my own, and I'm sure others have too. Scum probably did too, and yes, claiming could be a good idea, let's give the cop some of our confidence and let them make up their own mind. (I am not claiming not-cop).

[liopoil]

I mean, if we come to the conclusion "yes, the cop should claim!" then we potentially tell scum that there is no cop, letting them fakeclaim.

[yuma]

SHHHHHH

I had already thought of all the above on my own, and I'm sure others have too. Scum probably did too, and yes, claiming could be a good idea, let's give the cop some of our confidence and let them make up their own mind. (I am not claiming not-cop).

Ummmm.... No. I don't think we need to be all hush hush about this. It took me what ~ 3-4 days to think of this. I am not sure others would as well. Chairs is new for example.

What advantage does this give to scum that we are talking about it? I see none. As you say, scum probably already thought of it, so why not talk about it. Look... if we have a cop they get to decide. What I am suggesting is that there may be a scenario where the cop didn't realize this scenario existed or isn't sure what to do. I have all the confidence in the world, but talking about it this way is far better than someone coming out and saying... "{My friend}... well he is a cop. And if {my friend} were in this scenario, what would you want him to do..."

[yuma]

I mean, if we come to the conclusion "yes, the cop should claim!" then we potentially tell scum that there is no cop, letting them fakeclaim.

maybe... and that I guess is a concern. But a fakeclaim in this setup is a very dangerous thing to do. It isn't like ash's fake claim in mean girls. Which still got him lynched the day after, but in this game... it can mean immediate death if something goes wrong ruining the whole game. It is extremely risky. Hence why you like open setups so much lio...

[liopoil]

yes, but even in open setups fakeclaiming is often a good move. It is possible to catch scum in a lie in open setups, which is why I like them.

If I'm scum and have good reason to believe that there are good odds that there is no cop, I will heavily consider fakeclaiming. successful fakeclaiming can benefit scum in the same way that follow the cop can benefit town. Talking about this is too likely to let scum know that it's safe for them to fakeclaim.

[liopoil]

meh, I'm not sure. I guess yuma's post could help inform new people like chairs. And no damage has been done yes, unless scum have figured out if yuma and I are the cop or not (assuming yuma is town). I'm glad Yuma's post didn't come to a conclusion about whether the cop should claim or not, because that would be bad. what I'm worried about is deciding what the cop should do, and there is no cop. as long as we don't come close to deciding what optimal cop play would be, theory talk is fine.

[yuma]

meh, I'm not sure. I guess yuma's post could help inform new people like chairs. And no damage has been done yes, unless scum have figured out if yuma and I are the cop or not (assuming yuma is town). I'm glad Yuma's post didn't come to a conclusion about whether the cop should claim or not, because that would be bad. what I'm worried about is deciding what the cop should do, and there is no cop. as long as we don't come close to deciding what optimal cop play would be, theory talk is fine.

Yes, I specifically avoided making a conclusion. But I do think putting all the facts out there and allowing a cop if we have one to come to their own conclusion on what is the best move.

And really the best move might be to sit back and relax for a while and see if mafia is dumb enough to try a fakeclaim and then call them out on it afterward. I don't know. It might be.

There a lot of possibilities in this setup, which is why it is a really good one and one that we keep coming back to.

[liopoil]

yes, this setup isn't nearly as simple as it looks. (see what I did there?).

[mcmcsalot]

Eevee is obvi town

Yea not positive about that, I may have been quite under the influence at the time of that post. I do think he's town though, I thought sb was town.

[Robz888]

I think we should do it. I like plans like this. The best case scenario is really good, the worst case scenario is very unlikely, and the middle scenarios are OKAY.

[liopoil]

I think we should do it. I like plans like this. The best case scenario is really good, the worst case scenario is very unlikely, and the middle scenarios are OKAY.

[Voltaire]

Current reads:

Town:
lio
chairs
Eevee

Middling town:
mcmc

Neutral:
mail-mi
yuma

Middling scum:
Robz

[Robz888]

Yeah, let's just do it. 

I am the Cop.

I investigated Spiritbears. When we were both scum before the reset, I told him to act crazy and play dumb, to appear like his town self, and I got the idea in my head that that's what he was doing here, with that awful hammer. Nope, SB/Eevee is Town.

[Eevee]

Interesting!

I was about to chime in saying that scum fakeclaiming cop is BAD here, because if we only have 1 power role, it's going to be totally normal for that person not to die at night (usually the problem with scum's fake claim's - them continuing to live becomes a huge problem), so we could just lose the game because of that.

But okay, Robz didn't wait for everyone to chime in before claiming, so that makes me believe him a lot more. I think fakeclaim without "testing" if there are other cops is less likely of a scum play (and Robz's play, especially the certainty about me, makes sense for a cop).

So, put me in the tentatively believing Robz - camp - obviously barring any other claims which would change the situation totally.

If you are a jailkeeper/doctor and not responsible for last night's no kill, then you know that Robz is lying. Not relevant yet, but might be somewhere down the road.

[Voltaire]

I think town just won.

I am the jailkeeper. I jailkept Robz last night. He could not have investigated anyone.

This is worth it right? Me claiming, a 1-1 trade? That's my understanding, this is my first-ever game with a town PR on f.ds. So we'll lynch either myself or Robz today, and if it's the wrong person lynch the other tomorrow, and we've traded 1 town for 1 scum. So thinking this through...

Lynch Robz today - 1 scum, 6 town
Mafia kills tonight - 1 scum, 5 town on D3

or

Lynch Voltaire today - 2 scum, 5 town
Mafia kills tonight - 2 scum, 4 town on D3
lynch Robz on D3 - 1 scum, 4 town
mafia kills - 1 scum, 3 town on D4

That's amazing, no?

Vote:Robz888

Think it through. We also have a doctor. Do not claim. And there's a chance that I could jail the other mafia if we lynch Robz today, and maybe the doctor gets to save someone too. Huzzah!

[Robz888]

Vote: Voltaire

[Voltaire]

Vote: Voltaire

This is so much fun! I'm serious, I am having a blast right now. 

[Robz888]

I'm still trying to think this through. Obviously Voltaire is scum--well you don't know that of course, just I do--and we have a doctor or a real JK...

[Robz888]

Vote: Voltaire

This is so much fun! I'm serious, I am having a blast right now. 

It is fun! Scum 

[Voltaire]

Vote: Voltaire

This is so much fun! I'm serious, I am having a blast right now. 

It is fun! Scum 

Oh and I jailkept you because I caught your cop softclaim on D1 and figured it was so massively obvious that either you were guaranteed to draw the nightkill as town, or you were scum setting up this fakeclaim, in which case I should jail you in case you were also doing the kill. 

[Robz888]

Vote: Voltaire

This is so much fun! I'm serious, I am having a blast right now. 

It is fun! Scum 

Oh and I jailkept you because I caught your cop softclaim on D1 and figured it was so massively obvious that either you were guaranteed to draw the nightkill as town, or you were scum setting up this fakeclaim, in which case I should jail you in case you were also doing the kill. 

Softclaim??? If I did that it was unintentional. What was it?

[Eevee]

Oooooh!

Well, you can put me into believing Voltaire - camp, as a first impression anyways. This is why I thought scum shouldn't fakeclaim right off the bat - it can go very badly for them.

Note: If both have 50% of being scum, lynching Robz is better, because Voltaire's narrative has a doctor that could stay hidden.

[Robz888]

Oooooh!

Well, you can put me into believing Voltaire - camp, as a first impression anyways. This is why I thought scum shouldn't fakeclaim right off the bat - it can go very badly for them.

Note: If both have 50% of being scum, lynching Robz is better, because Voltaire's narrative has a doctor that could stay hidden.

Such thinking is what you, ashersky, and yuma used to win Mean Girls with that fake claim.

[Voltaire]

Note: If both have 50% of being scum, lynching Robz is better, because Voltaire's narrative has a doctor that could stay hidden.

Yep - even though I'm the jailkeeper, I didn't prevent the kill! I assume, or else Robz would know it would be horrible to claim cop with an investigation if he knew he was jailkept when his kill didn't go through. Which means I think the doctor must have saved someone! Which is just hilariously perfect 100% awesome amazing luck for town and I'm giddy.

And Robz? It was this:

I mean I can elaborate more, I don't think it helps matters if I do, though. I'd have to really, really think yuma is scum to want to lynch him on Day 1. He's a really valuable player if he is town. And I think we will have better evidence regarding his alignment on a later day.

PPE: a new post.

[Robz888]

I mean I can elaborate more, I don't think it helps matters if I do, though. I'd have to really, really think yuma is scum to want to lynch him on Day 1. He's a really valuable player if he is town. And I think we will have better evidence regarding his alignment on a later day.

PPE: a new post.

That was not intended as a softclaim at all, but I don't blame you for thinking it was.

I do blame you for being scum, scum!!!

[Voltaire]

That was not intended as a softclaim at all, but I don't blame you for thinking it was.

I do blame you for being scum, scum!!!

[chairs]

Well, I guess I get to find out if it's hat-eating time, then.

Vote: Robz

[yuma]

Alright... well this wasn't a scenario I had imagined, but that is ok.... Before this I had a townread on Voltaire and a scummier read on Robz.... So I am inclined to believe Voltaire at this point.

Robz (if he is scum) claiming w/o checking in with others is a bit risky... but! here is one thing I alluded to but didn't mention in my earlier post.

We as a group knew there was at least a doc or a JK. Right? So there is only a 33% chance of their being a cop to begin with. 66% chance that there isn't which is pretty good odds for a scum to try and claim and think they can probably get away with it...

So were we lucky that voltaire had JKed robz and that Robz didn't think that scenario was likely or didn't even think of it... or did voltaire fakeclaim. That ultimately is the real question. If voltaire is mafia why would he fake claim? Because I think it is kinda risky, maybe even more risky for him to fakeclaim that it would be for scum!robz to fakeclaim.

Yeah, I lean toward voltaire being true, but want to reread both to see how their posts measure up to this...

[yuma]

lio I know you are looking at this thread and have been for the last ~15 minutes... did your partner just fakeclaim and you are panicking about how to react to them.

[Eevee]

The thing is, this is 100% in line with how robz plays scum. Remember the day 1 bus on Frisk in that one blitz game? He absolutely loves making
super bold and risky moves as scum. Voltaire on the other hand, while good at this game, just came back from a long break, would be scum for the first time (supposedly would value his life a not and not be willing to risk epic failing like this). Also his claim doesn't make much sense for scum.. he gets robz lynched and dies himself day 3, leaving town with 3 townies one scum situation with an almost 50% chance of there still
being a jk/doc alive (and that's assuming both scum kills go through, which might not happen).

Yeah, the claim fits Robz's mo and he had more to gain. I'm thinking robz scum 80% voltaire scum 20%.

[Voltaire]

The thing is, this is 100% in line with how robz plays scum. Remember the day 1 bus on Frisk in that one blitz game? He absolutely loves making
super bold and risky moves as scum. Voltaire on the other hand, while good at this game, just came back from a long break, would be scum for the first time (supposedly would value his life a not and not be willing to risk epic failing like this). Also his claim doesn't make much sense for scum.. he gets robz lynched and dies himself day 3, leaving town with 3 townies one scum situation with an almost 50% chance of there still
being a jk/doc alive (and that's assuming both scum kills go through, which might not happen).

Yeah, the claim fits Robz's mo and he had more to gain. I'm thinking robz scum 80% voltaire scum 20%.

Hey, that was ZM2, the first and only game I ever modded! Y'know, the horrifically broken one with 3 cops. 

To be fair, I was scum once on f.ds in a game I completed (the crazy one where everyone was a comic/tv show character...I replaced Frisk and was Draco Malfoy but had to continue Frisks's Jubilee fakeclaim). We lost.

I was also scum on f.ds in Robz's Courtyard Masquerade, the game with 39,302 people whose size made me leave f.ds mafia (which was horrible of me, and I am so sorry for disappearing Robz, that was not cool of me).

Just so everyone has the same info. I don't mean to be hurting my own case here, I'm just honestly so so so so so giddy at the fact that town jailkept one mafia and doctored the target of the other on D1  and I'm game to just shoot the breeze for now.

I honestly don't have much more to say at this point. Let's try to find Robz's scum partner, but otherwise, you can decide which of the two of us/which of the two claims you trust more. I'll hang back for now. If you have any questions for me ask and I'll answer.

[Voltaire]

I don't mean to be hurting my own case here, I'm just honestly so so so so so giddy at the fact that town jailkept one mafia and doctored the target of the other on N1  and I'm game to just shoot the breeze for now.

*corrected

[Eevee]

One thing to discuss: If Robz flips scum, what do you think of me? He claimed to have a town result on me, would he do that if I was his partner?

[Voltaire]

One thing to discuss: If Robz flips scum, what do you think of me? He claimed to have a town result on me, would he do that if I was his partner?

I currently think it's Robz giving the easiest result to make up and get trusted.

On the other hand I remember a game where scum!Frisk fakeclaimed cop and cleared his partner (Jorbles).

So for now I'm continuing my town read on you, and think I would when Robz flips scum...so basically a null read from that info (that he cleared you)?

[mail-mi]

Wow. Just, wow. If volt is telling the truth, the Robz would have gotten no result. But if Robz is telling the truth... Argh. I'm gonna reread them both later and see what I come up with.

[Eevee]

The thing is, if we lynch Robz and he flips scum, we'll be in SUCH an awesome position.

-scum already missed a night kill
-we have a hidden doctor (unless robz made a horrible blunder with his claim)
-Voltaire's jailkeeping can be used as a doctoring tool (the target can't die), as an investigational tool (the target cant kill, only one scum left) and as a blocking tool (blocking the night kill to buy as more days).

So, basically every time Voltaire jails someone and there is a kill, we know that person isn't scum.

[yuma]

Robz/Volt in summary form:

Robz:

- already mentioned that I found him scummy for his "UGHHHHHHHHHH" post day1 when he was no longer scum. Looked over the top to me and forced. Something I didn't notice before is that he gives himself an excuse to not scum hunt and have bad reads! Red flag!
- Policy vote on mcmc... not my favorite, but Robz has policy voted before (easy place to hide a vote as scum)
- his going after chairs intrigued me early. Robz has stated before that he is opposed to lynching new players day1 unless there is a really compelling case. But he pushed rather forcefully on chairs with a case that wasn't really compelling--didn't he even admitted to as much day2 when he said he couldn't even remember why he found him scummy?
- he almost comes around to sheeping me on mail-mi, but doesn't--although he voted for him (the person I still consider to be the easy mislynch) just barely in day2
- he does "sheep/follow/whatever" me onto nkirbit. I still maintain that what he did was rather similar to what he was getting frustrated with spiritbears/mcmc/mail-mi for doing. Not exactly the same! I know. But similar... Especially mail-mi, whom he ultimately votes for...
- One thing worth noting is that robz in his arguments with mcmc and sb never really comes out says "sb is scummy for sheeping" no. He always says it about mcmc instead. He doesn't really come out and say "sb is town for doing it" but I woulnd't expect him to if he is really the cop... Especially after the joth giveaway in MXVI. Points to him being cop, or having planned early on that he might claim cop and SB would be his claimed target. so if this was a fakeclaim, it was well planned.
- He also defended SB pretty early on in a rather round about way. Points to him being cop, or well planned fakeclaim again.
- except for this statement:

That the kindof uncareful thinking we are used to you promoting robz...or should I say scumrobz...

What?

What do you mean what...you only made one statement

I'm not promoting uncareful thinking.

Yes you are....as usual. Then when I point out how you're wrong (for promoting that I voted without "hearing a reason", hint: I already had my own (if you had bothered to read my interaction with lio)... you'd say, oh, that's legit....except thst if comes from me, you write it off...if it comes from someone else....different story

Right, I know that both you and mcmc have reasons, but you didn't vote until yuma signalled he was against lio--without explanation! Which is very interesting, and does not reflect well on either of you.

is the first time he lumps both of them together. A mistake? A town mistake or a scum mistake?

But there are a lot of posts where he says, mcmc is scummy or sb is probably, most likely, certainly town. It actually starts getting more and more obvious as time goes on...

One more thing about this... Robz why did you choose spiritbears... I know you gave a reaosn, but what I am asking for is why did you choose him over someone that you always have a hard time reading... (ie... me). Honestly if I think robz is cop, I would expect him to investigate me.


Voltaire:

 - he started off pushing against me from the beginning. I don't find him scummy for this as I have said before. I find it frustrating, but not scummy
 - his arguments with me from the beginning sounded like he was townie. They were heated and a bit personal (sorry!) but they felt genuine in that he wasn't tunneling me, he was pressing me, evaluating me and trying to see the other side of the picture from my point of view.
 - he was on/off with my case on nkirbit and really one of the few players that didn't just follow, but analyzed, agreed to an extent and then ultimately disagreed with it and went back to me.
 - his unvote and reread of me again read very townie. He wanted to make sure of himself and didn't want to just convince himself. He was ultimately wrong, but I can respect the time and effort, but more importantly some of the things he found were certainly valid.
 - and he has been pretty much the same day2.

Basically if voltaire is mafia I will be floored. For one he looks very townie. Second, I don't think he would feel the need to risk a fakeclaim. He is in a very good position if he is scum. I don't know who his partner would be if he is, mabye they would be in trouble... but if they are in trouble, then why would he put himself into hot water?

yeah... I gotta go with Robz here. He is scummier, his claim fits the narrative better.

Pending vote count (which I'll do really quick after I post this), I'll be voting for him...

[yuma]

Vote: Robz/b]

Voltaire (1): Robz
liopoil (1): mcmcsalot
Robz (3): chairs, Voltiare, yuma (L-2)

Not voting: mail-mi, Eevee

I believe the above is correct, and updated with my vote on Robz.

[yuma]

Fail:

Vote: Robz

Voltaire (1): Robz
liopoil (1): mcmcsalot
Robz (3): chairs, Voltiare, yuma (L-2)

Not voting: mail-mi, Eevee

I believe the above is correct, and updated with my vote on Robz.

[yuma]

mcmc and lio... I see you are here. What do the two of you have to say?

[liopoil]

hi. catching up.

[mcmcsalot]

I believe volt, it makes much more sense. Claiming cop with a town result on someone lots of people have a town read on is silly ESPECIALLY when we had no nk. The chance of robz dying was low, he could have won the game for town by waiting to claim and making multiple Ic's so yea I think he scum.

[Robz888]

Responses to yuma. Don't want to quote the whole thing.

Yuma asks why I said it did not reflect well on either of them. It didn't. It didn't reflect well on SB, either. And as you can see, SB was drawing me into an argument with him that I really didn't want to have, knowing he was town, but we were having it, because, well, you know. But the fact that I always accused mcmc of being scummy, not SB, and in fact strained myself to supply you with reasons why I thought mcmc was scummy, but not SB, should be good evidence of my claim. But as you say, I could have planned that all along.

Yuma also asks why I didn't investigate him. I thought he would be night killed. It's more important to investigate someone who is actually going to survive, and I thought SB certainly would. A result on a dead player is the most useless thing ever.

[yuma]

Responses to yuma. Don't want to quote the whole thing.

Yuma asks why I said it did not reflect well on either of them. It didn't. It didn't reflect well on SB, either. And as you can see, SB was drawing me into an argument with him that I really didn't want to have, knowing he was town, but we were having it, because, well, you know. But the fact that I always accused mcmc of being scummy, not SB, and in fact strained myself to supply you with reasons why I thought mcmc was scummy, but not SB, should be good evidence of my claim. But as you say, I could have planned that all along.

Yuma also asks why I didn't investigate him. I thought he would be night killed. It's more important to investigate someone who is actually going to survive, and I thought SB certainly would. A result on a dead player is the most useless thing ever.

Good points. Thanks for responding. I hadn't thought of the surviving part. That is true that surviving is essential for a result to be useful... But... You only think I am going to be night killed if you think (know) I am town... Because if you think there is a chance I am mafia... I am certainly not going to NK myself!

[Robz888]

Responses to yuma. Don't want to quote the whole thing.

Yuma asks why I said it did not reflect well on either of them. It didn't. It didn't reflect well on SB, either. And as you can see, SB was drawing me into an argument with him that I really didn't want to have, knowing he was town, but we were having it, because, well, you know. But the fact that I always accused mcmc of being scummy, not SB, and in fact strained myself to supply you with reasons why I thought mcmc was scummy, but not SB, should be good evidence of my claim. But as you say, I could have planned that all along.

Yuma also asks why I didn't investigate him. I thought he would be night killed. It's more important to investigate someone who is actually going to survive, and I thought SB certainly would. A result on a dead player is the most useless thing ever.

Good points. Thanks for responding. I hadn't thought of the surviving part. That is true that surviving is essential for a result to be useful... But... You only think I am going to be night killed if you think (know) I am town... Because if you think there is a chance I am mafia... I am certainly not going to NK myself!

Certainly. But you'll note that I never really had much of a scum read on you on Day 1. And this is what I meant by the thing I said that Volt thought was a scumtell... if you survive Day 1, and there is some other kill, meaning the scum actually killed someone other than you, not that they tried to kill you and were blocked, it's good evidence you may be mafia, I think. So I can learn that about you without even investigating you. I can just wait and see what happens.

[Robz888]

^that Volt thought was a softclaim, I mean.****

[liopoil]

okay, caught up. I think that voltaire made a move that scum might make, and so did robz. I know if robz is town and I'm scum I would very likely counterclaim, especially if nobody suspects me, like voltaire. If robz888 is a cop then we had follow-the-cop set up and would have at least 2 investigation results to get, very hard for scum to win. By fakeclaiming voltaire sends the game to a 3 player lylo where scum has an advantage. So I disagree that this is something scum wouldn't do. However, fakeclaiming cop is also something scum would do, so that kinda cancells out.

[liopoil]

I believe volt, it makes much more sense. Claiming cop with a town result on someone lots of people have a town read on is silly ESPECIALLY when we had no nk. The chance of robz dying was low, he could have won the game for town by waiting to claim and making multiple Ic's so yea I think he scum.

No, claiming cop is absolutely correct to claim in this situation. 100%.

[Eevee]

Should we try to coordinate our pr's? The doc targets Voltaire and Voltaire makes a judgement call?

It's just vital to have them target different players and not have volt block the doc.. so should someone actually claim vt and volunteer to be jailkept?

[liopoil]

Should we try to coordinate our pr's? The doc targets Voltaire and Voltaire makes a judgement call?

It's just vital to have them target different players and not have volt block the doc.. so should someone actually claim vt and volunteer to be jailkept?

NO!!

[mail-mi]

Vote: Robz

For tomorrow: IF robz flips cop, is there any possible situation where volt isn't scum?

[liopoil]

For tomorrow: IF robz flips cop, is there any possible situation where volt isn't scum?

NO!!

that's L-1 peeps!

[liopoil]

oh wait, if voltaire is town, the there must have been a doc who blocked the kill, right?

the situation where voltaire is town is actually unlikely. Despite finding robz scummier than volt in general, his claim makes more sense. I am unsure which I weight higher.

[mail-mi]

For tomorrow: IF robz flips cop, is there any possible situation where volt isn't scum?

NO!!

that's L-1 peeps!

NO!! as in don't ask that, or NO!! as in volt is scum if robz is town?

[mail-mi]

oh wait, if voltaire is town, the there must have been a doc who blocked the kill, right?

the situation where voltaire is town is actually unlikely. Despite finding robz scummier than volt in general, his claim makes more sense. I am unsure which I weight higher.

If volt is town, either Robz made the kill, or there is a doc that blocked. I think the first is probably more likely.

[liopoil]

"NO!!" as in if robz flips town volt must be scum. same vice-versa.

[liopoil]

yeah, actually, it is possible that robz did the kill without being stupid. So that makes me believe voltaire more.

[mcmcsalot]

I believe volt, it makes much more sense. Claiming cop with a town result on someone lots of people have a town read on is silly ESPECIALLY when we had no nk. The chance of robz dying was low, he could have won the game for town by waiting to claim and making multiple Ic's so yea I think he scum.

No, claiming cop is absolutely correct to claim in this situation. 100%.

Okay liopoil we can have this discussion later but really claiming cop on day 2 knowing with a town result is not an auto spot to claim. If robz waited till even tomorrow it's much more helpful. Also robz is L-1, intent to hammer after a few more people weigh in

[liopoil]

claiming cop on day 2 with a town result and no kill is an auto spot to claim in this setup

[mcmcsalot]

claiming cop on day 2 with a town result and no kill is an auto spot to claim in this setup

Meh

[yuma]

Who are we waiting for mcmc?

1. Volt, 2. yuma, 3. mail-mi and 4. chairs are all voting robz

5. lio and 6. eevee are not voting

7. Robz is voting robz

8. mcmc is intent to hammer

I say hammer.

[Eevee]

oh wait, if voltaire is town, the there must have been a doc who blocked the kill, right?

the situation where voltaire is town is actually unlikely. Despite finding robz scummier than volt in general, his claim makes more sense. I am unsure which I weight higher.

If volt is town, either Robz made the kill, or there is a doc that blocked. I think the first is probably more likely.

Robz wouldn't (well, shouldn't..) ever claim that if he was the one making the kill.

[Eevee]

Who are we waiting for mcmc?

1. Volt, 2. yuma, 3. mail-mi and 4. chairs are all voting robz

5. lio and 6. eevee are not voting

7. Robz is voting robz

8. mcmc is intent to hammer

I say hammer.

I'm totally hammering when everyone has said their piece and we have planned our power role actions enough. Has all the robz voters posted after the claim?

[liopoil]

oh wait, if voltaire is town, the there must have been a doc who blocked the kill, right?

the situation where voltaire is town is actually unlikely. Despite finding robz scummier than volt in general, his claim makes more sense. I am unsure which I weight higher.

If volt is town, either Robz made the kill, or there is a doc that blocked. I think the first is probably more likely.

Robz wouldn't (well, shouldn't..) ever claim that if he was the one making the kill.

well, for all he knew, the kill was just doctored.

[yuma]

yes. everyone has weighed in. I think planning PR movement is a bad idea.

[liopoil]

everyone has posted and stuff, but I don't suggest a hammer yet. I know we're all thirst for scum's blood, but can't hurt to wait a little bit.

[liopoil]

7. Robz is voting robz

8. mcmc is intent to hammer

I say hammer.

robz is not voting robz....

yuma, why so eager to end the day?

[yuma]

7. Robz is voting robz

8. mcmc is intent to hammer

I say hammer.

robz is not voting robz....

yuma, why so eager to end the day?

dude you know what I meant...

Robz is voting voltaire. There fixed.

Why so eager to stop your scum buddy from getting lynched?

[liopoil]

7. Robz is voting robz

8. mcmc is intent to hammer

I say hammer.

robz is not voting robz....

yuma, why so eager to end the day?

dude you know what I meant...

Robz is voting voltaire. There fixed.

Why so eager to stop your scum buddy from getting lynched?

I'm fine with robz being lynched, I thought I said that. You know I hate premature endings to days.

[mcmcsalot]

I think it's silly to waste time and chit chat about pr's.

Funny enough robz and I are on vacation and in the same house so it was wired for the first day, I guess this fixes things.

vote: robz

[mail-mi]

Alright, I hope we got this right!

[Eevee]

vote: robz just to make sure

[yuma]

7. Robz is voting robz

8. mcmc is intent to hammer

I say hammer.

robz is not voting robz....

yuma, why so eager to end the day?

dude you know what I meant...

Robz is voting voltaire. There fixed.

Why so eager to stop your scum buddy from getting lynched?

I'm fine with robz being lynched, I thought I said that. You know I hate premature endings to days.

No... you hate premature endings to days that need to be continued for a specific purpose... See day1. But here. What is to gain? Nothing. Just because it doens't hurt to wait doesn't mean that it helps us.

Look I am not in a major rush, well actually I kinda am. I am going to be busy for the rest of the day and then VLA starting in the morning. So yeah, I would like to see a lynch and see the result before I head on vacation. Otherwise I will be going crazy trying to figure out if we were right or not... especially given it took shraeye like a day to finally flip nkirbit....

[mail-mi]

I would like to use my double vote powers to vote: robz a second time.

[liopoil]

7. Robz is voting robz

8. mcmc is intent to hammer

I say hammer.

robz is not voting robz....

yuma, why so eager to end the day?

dude you know what I meant...

Robz is voting voltaire. There fixed.

Why so eager to stop your scum buddy from getting lynched?

I'm fine with robz being lynched, I thought I said that. You know I hate premature endings to days.

No... you hate premature endings to days that need to be continued for a specific purpose... See day1. But here. What is to gain? Nothing. Just because it doens't hurt to wait doesn't mean that it helps us.

Look I am not in a major rush, well actually I kinda am. I am going to be busy for the rest of the day and then VLA starting in the morning. So yeah, I would like to see a lynch and see the result before I head on vacation. Otherwise I will be going crazy trying to figure out if we were right or not... especially given it took shraeye like a day to finally flip nkirbit....

I mean, this one isn't a big deal. I just think there's a non-zero chance that something further could happen from letting the day go forward. probably not... I mean, maybe we totally missed something obvious and we'll be kicking ourselves for it if robz flips town.

[mcmcsalot]

For the record I don't think that is how town!robz claims cop

[liopoil]

time for thread lock/flip and stuff? yes? YES!

[Robz888]

Final reads...

Scum: Voltaire

Scummy: Mail-mi, mcmc

Neutral: Chairs, yuma

Town: liopoil, Eevee

[mail-mi]

Robz: if you are scum then HA!

if you are town then we will avenge your death.

[Voltaire]

Hey, a hammer! That's good. And we're not lynching me, yay! Town will be set up even better.

Interesting that yuma and lio disagree on so much and agree no not planning PR movement.

[mail-mi]

Everyone should vote: robz just for the heck of it.

[Voltaire]

Time to go figure out who I'm jailing! Off for a re-read, I assume there'll be a lock soon. Not that I'd post again with my plan, sorry scum. 

[shraeye]

THREAD LOCKED

[shraeye]

Vote Count 2.Final

liopoil (1): Eevee
Robz (5): chairs, Voltaire, yuma, mail-mi, mcmcsalot
Voltaire (1): Robz

Not voting: liopoil

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is 11am forum time on Wednesday, July 15th

[shraeye]

Well, that day certainly had a lot of people using the bold-tag in their posts.  It sure is fun to talk loud like that.

Robz888, the Mafia Goon, has been vanquished.  But there's still 1 mafia left!


Night 2 start, please submit actions by 9pm Thursday....yeah, that's a short night, but my V/LA starts Friday morning, so it's a short night, or wait until Monday.

[shraeye]

You see, I was talking about the claims that happened above when I said that thing about bold text.  I didn't actually count the number of bolded words and compare it to day 1.  That would be a very tedious task.

Wait, what are you all doing reading this?! You all know that Robz, the Mafia Goon, was lynched, and that we should be doing nighttime stuff.  Like sleeping.  You all should be sleeping right now.

[shraeye]

Ok, guys it's day 3 now.  I'm pretty sure that's true.  I mean, 3 IS a prime number.  So is 2, but two is an odd prime number because it's not odd.  That sentence could have been worded better.

DAY3 START

[shraeye]

Vote Count 3.1

Not voting: chairs, Eevee, liopoil, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, Voltaire, yuma

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 9am forum time on Monday, July 20th

[Eevee]

Oh wow, haha.

7 alive, in the worst case scenario we can afford 2 mislynches.. scum can't fakeclaim as we'd have time to lynch both, so massclaim and certain victory now?

[liopoil]

massclaim is not neccessarily the right move.

There is a slim, but real chance that we only have 1 PR. In this case, we let scum fakeclaim. If there are two PRs, then we just let the other PR stay quiet and only claim when they might be lynched. it essentially has the same effect.

is volt IC?? I think it COULD be possible that he's scum, but very unlikely.

[Voltaire]

is volt IC?? I think it COULD be possible that he's scum, but very unlikely.

I would honestly like to hear the case where I'm scum just because it would have to be so convoluted and likely involve setup error.

I'm thinking along the same lines as Eevee, and thought about this "overnight" - should we just fullclaim? If we only have 1 PR (me) then Rob made a daring gambit and I'm not sure what to do. Because in that setup I assume scum fakeclaims doctor. So what do we do?

Maybe lio has the right of it? I'm open to theory talk because I think it wins the game for us.

Also I kinda assumed scum might no-kill on purpose, so we do need to consider that.

[Voltaire]

If there is a doctor they have another IC for us, right? Their N1 target?

[liopoil]

well, you could be scum if you and robz staged all that, and you are the rolecop who found a doctor N1, and were confident for some reason that the doc was the only PR. But really, I'm going to assume that you're town.

should volt tell us who he jailkept? I'm thinking yes.

Would robz do what he did if he did the NK last night? From his perspective, there are three possibilities:

A) he was jailkept
B) his NK target was jailkept
C) his NK target was doctored.

So I think it's possible that he did the NK, and in that case, we might not have another PR.

Another question is: is it possible that he DIDN'T do the NK? He was a goon, that means that his partner is a rolecop. Can the rolecop kill and cop in the same night? If he can't, then robz almost certainly did the kill.

[Voltaire]

From the first post of this thread:

Note: The Mafia must choose which player submits the night-kill; the Mafia Rolecop may submit an investigation AND night-kill, if desired.

I don't see any value in me revealing my JK target until we have a plan. And potentially until we're done claiming (if we do).

The rolecop is alive, and has N1 and N2 results now. If there is a doctor, they have a 33% chance of dying tonight based on that (7 alive, 1 mafia, 1 JK, 2 investigations, 3 left) [unless the mafia found the doc last night, in which case we lose the doctor tonight unless I can block the kill/accidentally hit the doc]

[liopoil]

If there is a doctor, they have a 33% chance of dying tonight based on that (7 alive, 1 mafia, 1 JK, 2 investigations, 3 left) [unless the mafia found the doc last night, in which case we lose the doctor tonight unless I can block the kill/accidentally hit the doc]

it's more complicated than that. the rolecop may have gotten no result last night, and their kill might get blocked again.

[Voltaire]

If there is a doctor, they have a 33% chance of dying tonight based on that (7 alive, 1 mafia, 1 JK, 2 investigations, 3 left) [unless the mafia found the doc last night, in which case we lose the doctor tonight unless I can block the kill/accidentally hit the doc]

it's more complicated than that. the rolecop may have gotten no result last night, and their kill might get blocked again.

If it was blocked. I still think mafia may have no-killed on purpose to create a more plausible claim down the line. I mean, they're in a terrible spot right now and have to be incredibly creative.

I want to hear from more experienced players on what to do. As long as I hear at least two plans, one of them has to be from town.

Also yuma you seemed pretty sure lio's the last mafia yesterday - can you expound on that if you still hold that opinion?

[chairs]

Gut instinct wins vs scum!Robz for me yay

I hope we can get so lucky with today's lynch!

[mail-mi]

Oh yes! This is very good.

Sometime today, volt needs to claim his target. I will then actively push lynching him/her.

[liopoil]

I agree that whoever was jailkept should get extra suspicion, but they aren't automatically scum.

[mail-mi]

I agree that whoever was jailkept should get extra suspicion, but they aren't automatically scum.

Well, in all likelihood they are, and so if there is not any other damning evidence against someone else, I will pursue lynching the jail kept.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay here is what I think, I think we are finally in a good position that we can use to win with good old fashion scum hunting. I think there are so many things that could go into the no nk that we shouldn't use jk targets as a reference for scum or town. I think got should just keep jailing whoever he feels comfortable jailing and if we have a doctor tey decide whether they protect volt or guess that scum doesn't try to kill volt and protect someone else.

I think we ride that advantage rather than out our doc if we have one or lynch based on night kill theories.

Lastly I do think volt is an ic, and theres no way robz and volt made that up and had it work. However if we are worried we need volt to give us your last night target because if you are scum your going to mess up and say you blocked our real pr eventually.

[Voltaire]

Just a reminder that I'm V/LA from now until late Sunday. If you need me for anything, it'll have to wait. Sorry!

[yuma]

I see no reason to not to vote: liopoil.

See my case below as well as his initial hesitancy to 1. talk about claiming--which is ultimately what led to Robz being outed 2. his hesitancy to lynch Robz, because he knew that once Robz was lynched it was a desperate situation.

Really, I don't have any concerete evidence, but my gut says liopoil, has for most of today and I feel it is correct. Maybe it is mail-mi and robz was bussing. Maybe eevee if robz wanted to WIFOM with his pseudo investigation, maybe mcmc, maybe chairs with bussing again. But all of those are much less likely than liopoil, like significantly less...

Also see Robz defending liopoil throughout most of day2 after my case on him--well that and my vote and then mcmc's and spiritbears and mail-mi's votes on him...

I am still mostly VLA so dont' have a chance to go back and make a case, but will be back Saturday night... and if lio is still alive then, I will see if I can put something together, if not by then, then I certainly will Tuesday morning.

[mail-mi]

Shraeye you might want to change the D1 link in the OP so that it goes to the real D1 instead of the abandoned game D1 I was just starting a reread and I reread like 5 pages of that!

[mcmcsalot]

I agree with Yuma, I also found liopoil scummy before robz claim. vote: liopoil

[Voltaire]

I would like for us not to lynch anyone until I can put up a proper post btw - voting's cool, it gets reactions, but no lynch plz. And I'd like eevee or chairs to seriously consider yuma so I can have a second opinion. Feel free to tell me I'm crazy if that's the conclusion you reach.

And gone till Sunday again.

[Eevee]

Sounds crazy to me that you guys (mcmc the most I guess) want to lynch based on traditional scum hunting here. We have so much information and can afford at least two mislynches! Why would we not have Voltaire claim fhis target first, given he already claimed jailkeeper?

Also I would at least like for people to consider how bad it is if our doctor gets jailkept. As long as the doc protects Voltaire and Voltaire targets anyone but the doc, we are creating IC's left and right and have an excellent chance at either finding or poe'ing to scum.

What do people think the possibility of scum nokilling last night? Night 1 I think it's very low.

Robz couldn't possible have been the one to make the kill N2, am I right? Scum was in good position at the time of his claim, and if he was the killer it's 33% that he was jailkept, right? Add to that the possibility of another cop or doc + JK, I just don't see. We need confirmation from the mods; Would a mafia rolecop be able to cop and kill[?/b] Because is yes, it makes a ton of sense for Robz NOT to do the kill - almost anyone would be less likely to be targeted by JK/cop in their perspection (and reality too, as we can see now).

Oh, and if we assume Robz would realize he might have gotten jailkept and wouldnt fakeclaim had he been the killer night 1, there has to be a doctor. Anyone contest this assumption?

[Eevee]

Damnit. Well, you get the point.

[chairs]

I would like for us not to lynch anyone until I can put up a proper post btw - voting's cool, it gets reactions, but no lynch plz. And I'd like eevee or chairs to seriously consider yuma so I can have a second opinion. Feel free to tell me I'm crazy if that's the conclusion you reach.

And gone till Sunday again.

Yuma's a hard read for me, but I'll try to give it a go.  Nobody's eaten at my gut the way Robz did.

[chairs]

It's okay to quote modposts from within this thread, right?  Because as far as mafia rolecop question:

"Note: The Mafia must choose which player submits the night-kill; the Mafia Rolecop may submit an investigation AND night-kill, if desired."

[chairs]

I went through and did some rereading, and here's my opinion:

Out of the players left in the game, the likeliest targets in my mind for lynching are yuma and eevee - particularly Eevee.

liopoil does strike me as a bit scummy, but I don't think a liopoil mislynch would tell us as much as, say, a yuma mislynch.
voltaire theoretically could be scum faking jailkeeper, but that'd be an awfully sly move AND he'd have bussed his scumpartner, so that seems like a poor move if he's scum.

Eevee I'm completely reading into based on the things SB said before leaving - Eevee's been much more circumspect, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that SB was Mafia.

[liopoil]

I agree with Yuma, I also found liopoil scummy before robz claim. vote: liopoil

this is getting frustrating man. D2, you disagreed with me about SB, but didn't vote. Then when yuma said he had a case on me, you decided that I was pushing a SB lynch scummily. Then today, you posted, said nothing about me, then as soon as yuma posts about me, you vote for me. I mean, come on! do you like, not want to be the first on the wagon or something? and the thing is, this isn't anything new. I've been scum exactly once, and you were my scumbuddy. I've been town in every single other game, and in every single other game, you've heavily suspected me.

You aren't sheeping Yuma though, you have different reasons. you're reason is that I was trying to lynch someone who you think is town, and apparently did it in a scummy way because I was taking the easy way out, and would be more likely to do that as scum than town. I mean, that's just SO weak now, we have a dead scum to look at, and you're basing your read off of having an uncomfirmed townread on another player and interpreting the way I don't share that read as scummy.

Look, I'm sure you aren't finding me scummy over and over again on purpose, but it's getting kinda out of hand. Part of me thinks that you're scum because if you were town you would realize that your reasoning is weak and you just always find me scummy.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm going to Vote: Yuma.

he's awfully certain about me while saying things like:

I see no reason to not to vote: liopoil.

[snip]

Really, I don't have any concerete evidence, but my gut says liopoil, has for most of today and I feel it is correct.

[snip]

And his big post on me:

which is primarily saying that I am trying to steer town to its downfall.

He has other reasons, and plans on making another big case apparently. But here's the deal:

For Yuma, having bad reads is a scumtell. Yes. In my time here, whenever he's town he does really well at catching scum, with few exceptions. And he's gotten it badly wrong this game. He was wrong on nkirbit, and he's terribly wrong on me. Sure, he didn't oppose Robz's lynch, but nobody did, it was the clear lynch of the day.

I'll cite mean girls. He was scum there, and was "wrong" on robz, mcmc, and xeiron, and then won by lynching mail-mi. Scum also won that game by fakeclaiming. Scum fakeclaimed in this game, and in reality, it was probably a good move by robz, just didn't work out. And I think Yuma set robz up to do it. he started the theory discussion in the middle of the day:

Warning: about to do some theory discussion below...

[snip]

... as such I realize that there may be a benefit of having a cop (if there is one) claim today.

Here is why:

[snip]

If people really don't want to discuss this, I am sorry, but I think this specific scenario is worth talking about because it could put town in an incredibly advantageous situation.

and robz replies with:

I think we should do it. I like plans like this. The best case scenario is really good, the worst case scenario is very unlikely, and the middle scenarios are OKAY.

and in his next post:

Yeah, let's just do it. 

I am the Cop.

I really think Yuma set him up to do that, so that his claim didn't come out of nowhere.

So really, I have 3 main points:

- case on me is weak and looks strongly to me like pushing a mislynch.
- town!yuma gets it right, scum!yuma gets it wrong. Yuma has been getting it wrong.
- totally set robz's claim up.

[mail-mi]

I reread D1 chairs and he seems like genuine newbie town.

I also really like lio's case on yuma, and will vote: yuma

Going to Despicable Me 2 so i might put some stuff together later.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote Count 3.2

liopoil (2): yuma, mcmcsalot
yuma (2): liopoil, mail-mi

Not voting: chairs, Eevee, Voltaire

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 9am forum time on Monday, July 20th

[Eevee]

So, the plan is to traditionally scumhunt and then have the people who might have helpful knowledge claim if they feel we are going in a horribly bad direction?

[chairs]

Eevee, how do you feel about a yuma lynch - specifically, your thoughts on liopoil's argument?

[Eevee]

Eevee, how do you feel about a yuma lynch - specifically, your thoughts on liopoil's argument?

Meh, the case is decent. I don't oppose it, it's okay. Voltaire's jailing target from last night is a BIG missing piece of information though, and it just might change everything completely.

No one else seems to be even remotely interested in talking theory, so maybe it's a mistake to pursue that line of discussion, at least until Voltaire claims.

[mail-mi]

Tru dat.

[liopoil]

oh, voltaire should definitely tell us who he jailkept, but in the meantime, why not scumhunt? But I agree that he should tell us at his next opportunity.

[chairs]

Eevee, how do you feel about a yuma lynch - specifically, your thoughts on liopoil's argument?

Meh, the case is decent. I don't oppose it, it's okay. Voltaire's jailing target from last night is a BIG missing piece of information though, and it just might change everything completely.

No one else seems to be even remotely interested in talking theory, so maybe it's a mistake to pursue that line of discussion, at least until Voltaire claims.

I'm interested in talking theory - I"m just not particularly good at it yet.  I think I"m getting the idea, though!

[liopoil]

No one else seems to be even remotely interested in talking theory, so maybe it's a mistake to pursue that line of discussion, at least until Voltaire claims.

What theory do we have to talk about? whether any PR we may have should claim or not? I think the PR can come to their own conclusions. They have info none of the VTs have, regarding who they targeted the last two nights, so they are best suited to make the choice.

If anyone is a jailkeeper by any chance, they should claim for sure because we insta-win, but if they probably would have claimed already.

In other theory, we have at least 3 chances to catch the last scum. Good odds.

[yuma]

He has other reasons, and plans on making another big case apparently. But here's the deal:

For Yuma, having bad reads is a scumtell. Yes. In my time here, whenever he's town he does really well at catching scum, with few exceptions. And he's gotten it badly wrong this game. He was wrong on nkirbit, and he's terribly wrong on me. Sure, he didn't oppose Robz's lynch, but nobody did, it was the clear lynch of the day.

I'll cite mean girls. He was scum there, and was "wrong" on robz, mcmc, and xeiron, and then won by lynching mail-mi. Scum also won that game by fakeclaiming. Scum fakeclaimed in this game, and in reality, it was probably a good move by robz, just didn't work out. And I think Yuma set robz up to do it. he started the theory discussion in the middle of the day:

Warning: about to do some theory discussion below...

[snip]

... as such I realize that there may be a benefit of having a cop (if there is one) claim today.

Here is why:

[snip]

If people really don't want to discuss this, I am sorry, but I think this specific scenario is worth talking about because it could put town in an incredibly advantageous situation.

and robz replies with:

I think we should do it. I like plans like this. The best case scenario is really good, the worst case scenario is very unlikely, and the middle scenarios are OKAY.

and in his next post:

Yeah, let's just do it. 

I am the Cop.

I really think Yuma set him up to do that, so that his claim didn't come out of nowhere.

So really, I have 3 main points:

- case on me is weak and looks strongly to me like pushing a mislynch.
- town!yuma gets it right, scum!yuma gets it wrong. Yuma has been getting it wrong.
- totally set robz's claim up.

Ok... let me respond to your case {one of the worst cases ever}

- "the case on you is weak"

Where do you substantiate this? Where do you back this up? How is it weak? Can you provide some examples of how it is weak? Do you notice that it is the exact same thing that I am accusing you of doing--pushing weak cases on mail-mi and spiritbears earlier?

- "town!yuma gets it right, scum!yuma gets it wrong"

Hmmm... let's go look at real facts to back this up since you are just putting out allegations and aren't providing anything concrete here. Since you started playing--note I am only counting normal, non-blitz games here--I have played in MXIX (mafia), MXX (mafia), MXXII (town), MXXIII (town), MXXIV (town), MXXV (mafia)

Let's look how I actually did in those games eh?

MXIX (mafia) - I voted correctly (on the other team) once. I bussed once and I mislynched twice. So here 2-2.
MXX (mafia) - I mislynched 3 times. So here 0-3.
MXXII (town) - I mislynched twice. And correctly lynched (obvious arch, once) so 2-1.
MXXIII (town) - I mislynched twice. Never correctly voted. so 0-2.
MXXIV (town) - I voted correctly once. 1-0
MXXV (mafia) - I mislynched 4 times. 0-4.

So three games as town I mislynched 4 times and correctly lynched 2 times. 2/6=33%.
In three games as mafia I mislynched 9 times, bussed once and was correct once.

So yeah, as mafia I am wrong. But so is everyone if they are mafia. That is the name of the game. But you are giving me far too much credit for being right. I have a 33% correct lynch rate since you came around. Not super stellar...

But even more importantly, one of you big parts of your cases is that you find me scummy because I wasn't right on the day1 lynch? Really? Because I am always sooooo right on other day1 lynches? Lio... I have played ~18 games. ~ 12 of them as town. I have correctly lynched day1 twice. TWICE! I would guess that is pretty similar to everone else out there. So don't ascribe mystical day1 lynching powers to town!yuma and then be suspicious of me when I am wrong. I am wrong more often than not and the fact that this is one of your main points is extremely suspect to me, because really... it just shows that you are desperate and trying for anything to the point that you are willing to distort my meta to fit the needs of your case.

"totally set up Robz's claim"

- well I can't deny that robz claimed after I brought it up. This is true. But what I will dispute is that I set it up. This is because I still maintain that mafia claiming in that situation is a terrible, bad move (and honestly one that I was hoping for because it would likely result in an eventual loss for mafia).

As a result, setting that sort of a claim up isn't something I would do as mafia. Why? Because it would be bad and I play to win. I don't know why Robz claimed... His partner is probably a bit frustrated with him. But it certainly wasn't something that was thought up in a QT. That should be pretty obvious. Because if it was thought up in a QT it would have been immediately quashed because it was a bad, bad move that had more harm for mafia than benefit. So the point that I "set-up" robz claim is bunk. Because for something to be "set-up" it needs to be thoughtout and anyone who would have thought about such a plan would have realized that it wasn't a good one and abandoned it. Compare this to the plan in mean girls... That had obvious benefits to mafia--closed setups versus open setups--whereas this... was just bad.

My whole reasoning for bringing it up was because almost all of the possibilities in regard to claiming were pretty good for town and I felt town would benefit. And look! We did!

But again I ask, who was the player that was all like "SHHHHHHH! Don't talk about roles and claiming from the outset and was panicked when I brought it up again?

Oh yeah! It was lio...

Really at this point I pretty certain it is lio. No one else fits the picture. I haven't created a huge case yet, I spent my time responding to his accusations instead--I drove home from my vacation, immediately went to work and have only written this and go to work again tomorrow and again the next day, so not a lot of time--but really I don't need to write up a huge case. The stuff is there for people to go and reread and I think it should be pretty obvious.

If people don't think it is obvious then they should lynch me. I would be willing to offer lio up a trade at this point. I am willing to be lynched as long as lio is the next lynch, I am that confident. If you want a percentage, I would put it at 80%. Lio would you agree to this trade?

[yuma]

and in response to eevee.

I think voltaire should only claim if he thinks it necessary. And he has already said that he didn't want to divulge anything. I think we need to respect that. And yes, I am treating him as an IC at this point. There isn't a logic narrative that works for me with him as mafia. And again I ask, who is a player who openly considered that and even kinda pushed it? Oh, yeah... scumlio!

In the meantime, why wouldn't we scumhunt? I suggest you scumhunt lio first!

I am out until tomorrow evening.

[yuma]

{one of the worst cases ever}

and by this I mean that it isn't "the worst" case ever... but rather that it is one of the cases that I have found the most frustrating in responding to because so much of it is founded on "yuma is too good to be this bad" when in reality I make mistakes just as often--if not more often--as I get it right and that frustrates me.

So, sorry if I sounded snippy or rude.

[mail-mi]

Just reread yuma D1. First of all, he doesn't have as much of a presence as I remember him having in previous games. So slight scummy read here, although that was the same reasoning I voted for Nk.

Yuma complains about being told to not scumhunt (paraphrasing here): slight town, that is a genuine town worry

Yuma pushes case on Nk: Townie here, I think he was genuinely thinking that nk was scum.

So, in summary, I think Yuma has been acting like genuine town. However, I do like lio's case on him, and his defense not as much. So, I will unvote and wait for volt to claim JK target.

[Voltaire]

So, the plan is to traditionally scumhunt and then have the people who might have helpful knowledge claim if they feel we are going in a horribly bad direction?

Multiple people want me to claim my target, so at least someone from town wants this!

Surprising no-one...

I jailed yuma last night.

If this causes a mis-lynch, sorry yuma, town will still probably win.

I love lio's case on yuma. Yuma feels like he's driving a lio mis-lynch. And y'all know I've had a (varying) scumread on yuma this game.

[Eevee]

I'd like yuma to answer this question:
Do you think we should discuss the meaning of this or just auto lynch you?

I'm asking because any sort of analysis on this runs a fairly significant risk of outing our doc.

Volt, what was your reasoning behind picking yuma?

I feel like anyone but yuma and volt weighing in has the potential of being very problematic for us, so lets all think twice before saying anything.

[Voltaire]

Volt, what was your reasoning behind picking yuma?

Basically, my though process was:

- can't risk hitting the doc
- can't even count on there being a doc (though I think it's likely)
- need to save my own skin (in case I'm town's only PR)
- need to jail scum, then, not protect a townie
- I made a list of people scum > town
- then I made a separate list of those I thought could be the doc (I'm not sharing that for obvious reasons)
- then I decided that yuma was my top scum read with the lowest odds of being the doc

I figured worst-case scenario, I die as scum kills me because I jailed the doc, but I've also ensured that town has a secret doctor and super-strong player (yuma) still alive, in that worst-case scenario.

Then I decided that worse-case scenario was pretty darn good, and jailed yuma.

Scum could have anticipated this and no-lynched to try to frame someone. It's worth being paranoid about that I think.

(man, I'm bad at being V/LA...back to my "vacation")

[yuma]

Quick post before I head off to work

Alas, volt, you chose poorly.

I am the Doctor. I feel can claim this because mafia doing so is an auto-loss for them, because even if you do lynch me first, lynching them second results in a loss. (lio you want to claim here bud?) This should also be compelling evidence that I am not mafia... because mafia wouldn't claim doc here (because of the auto-loss part)

I doctored Voltaire Night1 and Night2. This is how I knew that Voltaire was town day2.

Because I knew that if Robz was town and in fact the cop then I was the only protective power and as such, the person I protected must have explained the NK--and if voltaire was mafia, he wouldn't target himself--so that scenario was bad. Thus Voltaire was town and Robz was mafia. End of day2. Also the reason I wanted to day to end quickly just in case for some crazy reason the mood switched to volt.

Go back and check my reads. I had voltaire at the very top of my reads.

This means that Volt was the mafia target night1--I saved him--and I was the mafia target night2. Volt saved me. Now... who would want to kill me. Pretty, old, innocent me? Maybe the player that I was harping on and calling out for being mafia? I would say lio...

But like I said, lynch me if you want. It just means that volt will die in the night and that we should lynch lio tomorrow. Or we could just lynch lio tonight.

[yuma]

Also, being doc was the reason that I suggested the "follow the cop plan" because I knew we had a doc. and if we had a cop we were in a golden situation. But now we are in an even better one, like so much better that I am not even that stressed about being lynched today. I still think we have this game in the bag.

[yuma]

A few quick more thoughts.

The gist of this is that if lio isn't mafia (I am pretty sure he is) keeping me alive is a good idea. Volt and I can wifom the mafia and try to keep each other alive.

From there we can continue to scum hunt, and I am pretty confident in our scum hunting abilities that we will eventually be able to flesh out the mafia.

If it does get to the point where we are at mylo and I am still alive and you guys are really suspecting me, then I promise that I won't fight a lynch of me at that point and we will just give mafia the game... because if they have survived that long, I wouldn't mind letting them win the game. And I really think we can scum hunt them well enough to win before that even becomes a problem.

But lynching me today is bad--I mean not super bad, because I still think we will win--because then you lose volt in the night (unless he JKs the correct player{lio}) and are out your two PRs. and if by some crazy chance lio isn't mafia... then we don't have anyone to prevent NKs and less days to flesh out the mafia via scum hunting.

Morale of the story.... if you really think I am still mafia after my claim, don't lynch me until mylo--where I promise I won't fight that lynch... heck I might even vote for myself and retire from mafia in shame because we weren't able to scum hunt well enough in what I consider to be a pretty easy situation.

[Eevee]

Well, I'm a VT. Everyone, claim asap. No reason not to anymore.

Some of yuma's posts from earlier can be interpreted as him being upset with Robz's decision to claim, and Robz was the killer night 1, that is very understandable.

[liopoil]

I'm a VT. more later.

[Voltaire]

People should finish claiming.

Based on info out there right now, I am cool lynching lio and/or yuma.

If yuma is telling the truth, how have the nights worked?

N1
Voltaire jails Robz
Yuma doctors Voltaire
lio cops
Robz kills Voltaire (blocked via both jailing/doctoring)

N2
Voltaire jails yuma
yuma doctors Voltaire (blocked via jailing)
lio kills yuma (blocked via jailing)
lio cops

Or are you saying something else, yuma?

[liopoil]

wait, what? I'm not a cop...

[Voltaire]

wait, what? I'm not a cop...

Mafia has a rolecop. Robz was the goon. If yuma is telling the truth, you're the mafia rolecop. Regardless of who our final mafia is, they're a rolecop.

[Voltaire]

wait, what? I'm not a cop...

Mafia has a rolecop. Robz was the goon. If yuma is telling the truth, you're the mafia rolecop. Regardless of who our final mafia is, they're a rolecop.

Rather, if yuma is right, you're the rolecop.

[liopoil]

oh, rolecop. Well, I'm not that either.

I'll assume that nobody counterclaims Yuma:

I still don't believe Yuma. As scum he's got to claim something, and if he's scum, he knows that robz did the kill and so there likely isn't a doctor, so he claims that. it's even possible that robz claimed thinking "even if I was jailkept, then people will convinced that my buddy did the kill, so yuma can claim doctor". And if he's telling the truth then either scum no killed, or scum killed yuma. I don't think scum would no kill because in doing so they need to get an extra mislynch through, which is a big hit. I don't think yuma would be the best kill option for them though, I'd think voltaire or chairs is more likely.

So the best explanation for me is that yuma is scum.

Even if yuma is telling the truth, that doesn't make me scum. He could be wrong you know... all he has on me is his reads, which aren't 100%.

[Eevee]

I'd be very surprised if Robz decided to claim cop despite the kill he tried to perform last night not going through..

For yuma to be scum that had to have happened.. Meh, something unlikely NEEDS to have happened.

What if we leave yuma alive, what are the advantages? Will scum kill him, or let him live?

[mcmcsalot]

Is it possible all we have is a jail keeper, I'm actually wary about yuma's claim.

If he is mafia he can no kill and then lay the trap that he's doctor who save someone.

Oh wait if he is and we lynch lio then volt can jail Yuma and kill him. There's only 3 mafia right?

I say we can afford to believe Yuma.

[liopoil]

Is it possible all we have is a jail keeper, I'm actually wary about yuma's claim.

If he is mafia he can no kill and then lay the trap that he's doctor who save someone.

Oh wait if he is and we lynch lio then volt can jail Yuma and kill him. There's only 3 mafia right?

I say we can afford to believe Yuma.

uhh, mcmc, there is only 1 mafia left... 2 total...

jailing yuma does not kill him.

it is very possible JK is our only PR.

once I flip town, that doesn't make Yuma scum. If yuma flips town, that doesn't make me scum. sheesh. It's not like I counterclaimed him or yuma claimed a guilty result on me or anything.

If we lynch Yuma, voltaire is still very capable of jailing me, as well as he is of jailing yuma if you lynch me. He can jail whoever the hell he wants.

Question: Have you read the second post of this thread??

[liopoil]

What if we leave yuma alive, what are the advantages? Will scum kill him, or let him live?

If he's a doctor and we don't lynch him, he will save voltaire and voltaire can either jail him or someone else. So, he kind of helps voltaire stay alive, but voltaire can do that himself by jailing the scum.

I am super worried that I'm wrong about Yuma and we're going to lynch him, then me, then suddenly we're in lylo and scum might win.

[Eevee]

Liopoil, Robz and yuma are the scumteam, Robz is the scum that performs the kill and it fails. He goes on to claim cop that got a result (Eevee is town). It's Robz and yuma, they would have had an active quicktopic. Don't you think claiming would have come up? Don't you think Robz would realize what a bad idea claiming that role for him specifically is in that scenario? If not, don't you think yuma would have told him?

[liopoil]

it isn't a bad idea though. They didn't know he got jailkept, and they might have good reason to believe there was no cop. I don't think robz made a big mistake. It easily could have won the game for scum.

[Eevee]

I've always been absolutely terrible at all this, but I'll give it a shot.

I think it's safe to assume scum attempted to kill N1, so, from Robz's perspective

a) he got jailed
b) his target got jailed
c) his target got doctored.

Now, I don't think there was anyone who appeared super towny day 1, so let's assume all power roles target randomly. Doesn't that mean that, from Robz's perspective, all of the options above are equally likely? On top of that, assuming there is a jailkeeper (which from above, they can assume is the case 66% of the time) there is an equal chance I got jailed, and his cover would blow just as well with his claim.

So, as scum basically needs to hit the dream scenario of there only being one PR (and that pr not being able to counterclaim him), I don't think it would have been a good move from scum Robz to claim in that scenario.

If the other guy performed the kill like I suspect, he just got very unlucky it worked out the way it did.

[liopoil]

66% chance he wasn't jailed, from his perspective. If he is counterclaimed it isn't the end of the world. Indeed, if it was someone who was more suspicious who counterclaimed him, he might have gotten them lynched. Even in this situation, whoever his buddy is still have a slim chance to win. Whereas if he isn't counterclaimed, it ought to be easy to win. And by doing this, he can try to WIFOM us into thinking his partner did it once he's flipped. And even if it is a mistake, it isn't an obvious one, and he could have made a mistake. And when he and his buddy were chatting, they must have thought that their kill would go through. In any case, he sets up a doctor fakeclaim quite nicely.

I think it's more likely that robz fakeclaims even though his kill didn't go through than scum either no killing or killing yuma.

[mail-mi]

I am aVT

[liopoil]

I believe that's everyone except mcmc, I assume he's claiming VT.

[yuma]

People should finish claiming.

Based on info out there right now, I am cool lynching lio and/or yuma.

If yuma is telling the truth, how have the nights worked?

N1
Voltaire jails Robz
Yuma doctors Voltaire
lio cops
Robz kills Voltaire (blocked via both jailing/doctoring)

N2
Voltaire jails yuma
yuma doctors Voltaire (blocked via jailing)
lio kills yuma (blocked via jailing)
lio cops

Or are you saying something else, yuma?

You can sub in anyone in place for lio. I don't have proof that it is lio, just my read.

And Robz didn't necessarily have to do the NK. I highly doubt that he did, based off his claim.

But the rest is correct:
Volt jails robz
yuma docs voltaire (I will say here that I had to decide between lio and volt and ultimately went with volt)
X NKs voltaire (blocked)

Volt jails yuma
yuma docs volt (blocked)
X kills yuma or NKs

[yuma]

What if we leave yuma alive, what are the advantages? Will scum kill him, or let him live?

The advantages to leaving me alive is that mafia is then WIFOM in regard to whom the kill... volt or myself. Because volt and I can decide whether or not we want to target each other and basically end up with a 50/50 opportunity that there won't be a NK--which means an additional day to find the last mafia if we don't get it right today or the next.

Like I said above:

If you are certain I am mafia, vote for me.

If you have doubts, leave me alive for now and then come back to the issue in mylo or lylo (and like I said above there, if we haven't caught the last remaining mafia by then, town deserves to lose, I will vote for myself and retire from mafia) because the benefit of keeping me alive is that Volt has a higher chance of staying alive and right now he is both an IC and the JK.

I don't know if mafia would try to kill me. I don't know what mafia would do in this situation at all. What I do know is the only chance they have is to try and push for my lynch today, because once they do that, they can eliminate volt tonight and then try and get some mislynches. The longer I stay alive, the more desperate their situation becomes, because it results in volt potentially staying alive longer as well.

So don't lynch me until mylo or lylo. Once we get there, I fully offer myself up to being lynched.

[yuma]

And if he's telling the truth then either scum no killed, or scum killed yuma. I don't think scum would no kill because in doing so they need to get an extra mislynch through, which is a big hit. I don't think yuma would be the best kill option for them though, I'd think voltaire or chairs is more likely.

So the best explanation for me is that yuma is scum.

Even if yuma is telling the truth, that doesn't make me scum. He could be wrong you know... all he has on me is his reads, which aren't 100%.

I am telling the truth... of course you don't know that... (or do you scum!) so I know that mafia either tried to kill me or NK. Both a pretty valid options I think, but killing me more so than anything else.

Why?

Well let's look at killing me. Why would mafia want to kill me? Well maybe they picked up on me being doc. I was trying to be subtle about it yesterday, because I didn't want to be the NK target and have us lose our advantage, but there were some clues... my brining up the "follow the cop" scenario, or my being pretty insistent that robz was mafia toward the end of the day. I didn't breadcrumb anything because breadcrumbs are dumb, so it couldn't have been that. Or maybe mafia picked me because 1. they knew that killing volt would result in another NK (they knew there was a doc and knew the doc would be protecting him) and from there they had to eliminate a player that was on the right track. (Here I am suspicious of lio, or someone trying to set up lio). Ultimately I don't think either chairs or volt were better options. Volt because he would be protected and chairs... well maybe chairs would have been an option, but on par with me.

And you are right, I don't know you are mafia. I have reads. That is all they are. I hope they are right. But it could be mcmc, it could be mail-mi, it could be chairs, it could be eevee. all possible. But not as possible as you.

Lio do you have anything to say in response to my response to you and to some of the things I have noted about you? I haven't made up a formal case, but I have posted some thoughts about everything, but you have kinda ignored them (because all the talk of late has been about my claim, I know, but I would like to see if you have a response to any of it.)

[liopoil]

well, that policy certainly benefits scum!yuma... All he has to do is kill off the people who suspect him, then in mylo or lylo suddenly say "oh crap, we're gonna lose, nevermind guys, don't lynch me! lynch this other guy!" Sure, probably doesn't work for him, but it has a better chance than what mafia have right now...

however, that plan makes it almost certain that town will win if yuma is town. And with the doctor claim, I am less certain.

Unvote

[yuma]

or maybe the rolecop targeted me night1? And knew for certain I was the cop? Or maybe they targeted chairs and knew for certain that he wasn't a PR... so didn't want to kill him.

What I am saying is that lio seems to be focusing on me because of some variables that can't be analyzed because we don't have all the data. Whereas I am focusing on lio because he is scummy.

[mail-mi]

And knew for certain I was the cop?

Scumslip.

[liopoil]

Lio do you have anything to say in response to my response to you and to some of the things I have noted about you? I haven't made up a formal case, but I have posted some thoughts about everything, but you have kinda ignored them (because all the talk of late has been about my claim, I know, but I would like to see if you have a response to any of it.)

you have not said much updating your previous case on me, but you have responded to my pre-claim case on you. I will re-respond to that. I will certainly respond once you make your new (and improved I hear) case on me.

- "the case on you is weak"

Where do you substantiate this? Where do you back this up? How is it weak? Can you provide some examples of how it is weak? Do you notice that it is the exact same thing that I am accusing you of doing--pushing weak cases on mail-mi and spiritbears earlier?

- "town!yuma gets it right, scum!yuma gets it wrong"

Hmmm... let's go look at real facts to back this up since you are just putting out allegations and aren't providing anything concrete here. Since you started playing--note I am only counting normal, non-blitz games here--I have played in MXIX (mafia), MXX (mafia), MXXII (town), MXXIII (town), MXXIV (town), MXXV (mafia)

Let's look how I actually did in those games eh?

MXIX (mafia) - I voted correctly (on the other team) once. I bussed once and I mislynched twice. So here 2-2.
MXX (mafia) - I mislynched 3 times. So here 0-3.
MXXII (town) - I mislynched twice. And correctly lynched (obvious arch, once) so 2-1.
MXXIII (town) - I mislynched twice. Never correctly voted. so 0-2.
MXXIV (town) - I voted correctly once. 1-0
MXXV (mafia) - I mislynched 4 times. 0-4.

So three games as town I mislynched 4 times and correctly lynched 2 times. 2/6=33%.
In three games as mafia I mislynched 9 times, bussed once and was correct once.

So yeah, as mafia I am wrong. But so is everyone if they are mafia. That is the name of the game. But you are giving me far too much credit for being right. I have a 33% correct lynch rate since you came around. Not super stellar...

But even more importantly, one of you big parts of your cases is that you find me scummy because I wasn't right on the day1 lynch? Really? Because I am always sooooo right on other day1 lynches? Lio... I have played ~18 games. ~ 12 of them as town. I have correctly lynched day1 twice. TWICE! I would guess that is pretty similar to everone else out there. So don't ascribe mystical day1 lynching powers to town!yuma and then be suspicious of me when I am wrong. I am wrong more often than not and the fact that this is one of your main points is extremely suspect to me, because really... it just shows that you are desperate and trying for anything to the point that you are willing to distort my meta to fit the needs of your case.

"totally set up Robz's claim"

- well I can't deny that robz claimed after I brought it up. This is true. But what I will dispute is that I set it up. This is because I still maintain that mafia claiming in that situation is a terrible, bad move (and honestly one that I was hoping for because it would likely result in an eventual loss for mafia).

As a result, setting that sort of a claim up isn't something I would do as mafia. Why? Because it would be bad and I play to win. I don't know why Robz claimed... His partner is probably a bit frustrated with him. But it certainly wasn't something that was thought up in a QT. That should be pretty obvious. Because if it was thought up in a QT it would have been immediately quashed because it was a bad, bad move that had more harm for mafia than benefit. So the point that I "set-up" robz claim is bunk. Because for something to be "set-up" it needs to be thoughtout and anyone who would have thought about such a plan would have realized that it wasn't a good one and abandoned it. Compare this to the plan in mean girls... That had obvious benefits to mafia--closed setups versus open setups--whereas this... was just bad.

My whole reasoning for bringing it up was because almost all of the possibilities in regard to claiming were pretty good for town and I felt town would benefit. And look! We did!

But again I ask, who was the player that was all like "SHHHHHHH! Don't talk about roles and claiming from the outset and was panicked when I brought it up again?

Oh yeah! It was lio...

Really at this point I pretty certain it is lio. No one else fits the picture. I haven't created a huge case yet, I spent my time responding to his accusations instead--I drove home from my vacation, immediately went to work and have only written this and go to work again tomorrow and again the next day, so not a lot of time--but really I don't need to write up a huge case. The stuff is there for people to go and reread and I think it should be pretty obvious.

If people don't think it is obvious then they should lynch me. I would be willing to offer lio up a trade at this point. I am willing to be lynched as long as lio is the next lynch, I am that confident. If you want a percentage, I would put it at 80%. Lio would you agree to this trade?

It's weak because I don't think that trying to lead town to victory should be seen as scummy, and I don't entirely understand why it seems to you that I am trying to mislead town, and that is the majority of your case. And, well, I'm town.

you make a very good point about the being wrong bit, had not realized that. For some reason I always think of you as getting it right as town much more often then not. and I was not basing it around being wrong D1. I am basing it off of how certain you have been for 2 days that I am scum, when I am not. I was saying that I don't think town yuma would be SO far off as you are right now.

I'll maintain that the claiming wasn't a bad move. It (theoretically) had a 50-50 chance of being a 1-1 trade even if he got counterclaimed, and more likely than not, he wouldn't be. It certainly did not work out for robz, but I don't think he erred.

I still think you are scum, but am nowhere near the 80% certain that you are about me, and I never was. So no, I will not accept your trade because it gives scum a very good chance if you are town, when they have little to no chance right now. And this level of certainty is part of my suspicion. It is super easy to fake suspicion as scum. And town just shouldn't be this certain about me, even if I was super-scummy, which I'm not. If you are town, Yuma, you are hurting town by getting so caught up in your theory that I am scum and fitting everything you see into your theory, making you more and more certain to the point where both of our mislynches seem inevitable.

I think we may be throwing away the big lead on scum that we have right now.

[yuma]

And knew for certain I was the cop?

Scumslip.

right completely ignore all of my four other large posts and everything else that I have written and narrowly focus on the one line that is obviously meant to be doc... I mean look at the context and the full quote...

"or maybe the rolecop targeted me night1? And knew for certain I was the cop?" Where I say "rolecop" followed by "cop." Pretty easy to write cop instead of doc when typing fast.

I mean... do you have anything else to say beside "scumslip" or are you ok just following what everyone else does?

Sheesh.

[yuma]

I still think you are scum, but am nowhere near the 80% certain that you are about me, and I never was. So no, I will not accept your trade because it gives scum a very good chance if you are town, when they have little to no chance right now. And this level of certainty is part of my suspicion. It is super easy to fake suspicion as scum. And town just shouldn't be this certain about me, even if I was super-scummy, which I'm not. If you are town, Yuma, you are hurting town by getting so caught up in your theory that I am scum and fitting everything you see into your theory, making you more and more certain to the point where both of our mislynches seem inevitable.

I think we may be throwing away the big lead on scum that we have right now.

You won't be getting a case from me today. I have said already that it would be tell Monday that I would have sufficient time to do a full reread and put something together.

It is also super easy to fake being uncertain as mafia. See Robz in MXIX.

I am town, and I refuse to see how I am hurting town by having a scum read! My scum read is completely valid and legitimate. You have some scummy attributes. Far more so than anyone else in the game! Maybe I should just create scum reads on other players to even the playing field? NO! I see scummy, I call out scummy. That is how the game plays. And I am certainly not caught up in my theory. I am looking at what is being presented. I mean really... look at it from my point of view. Who else but you at this point is suspicious?

you haven't recommended anyone else to find scummy have you? Voltaire is out. eevee/spiritbears I really think is town based off the derphammer and Robz's pseudoinvestigation. Mcmc is playing exactly how I think town!mcmc plays. Mail-mi I still think was the easy day1 mislynch. Chairs is a toss up. But you thought he was the most likely NK aside from voltaire--so you must think he is townie...

So who else am I supposed to suspect? Mafia isn't me. I don't think it is any of those above players... therefore I am left with you, who also has scummy attributes.

Look if you are town, then I am wrong. It won't be the first time. But instead of saying that I am "hurting town" by presenting a case against you, maybe you should concentrate more on trying to figure out who is mafia. It isn't me, if it isn't you, then it is someone else. But it will take a bit to convince me to vote somewhere other than you. But I can be convinced if the case and evidence is compelling. But I haven't seen anything compelling on anyone except what I have presented on you.

[chairs]

I'll confirm that

I am a Vanilla Townie

Also, just in case..

unvote

[mail-mi]

And knew for certain I was the cop?

Scumslip.

right completely ignore all of my four other large posts and everything else that I have written and narrowly focus on the one line that is obviously meant to be doc... I mean look at the context and the full quote...

"or maybe the rolecop targeted me night1? And knew for certain I was the cop?" Where I say "rolecop" followed by "cop." Pretty easy to write cop instead of doc when typing fast.

I mean... do you have anything else to say beside "scumslip" or are you ok just following what everyone else does?

Sheesh.

I thought maybe you weren't thinking of your "role" (that scum you made up) an dsaid cop.

But anyway, it was an ash style scum slip.

[mcmcsalot]

I thought I claimed vt, I am one. Ill catch up later today

[Eevee]

So, as expected, no counterclaims.

I think we can keep yuma alive, he is very helpful for us if he is a doc, and we can always lynch him later if we feel that's the play.

This is good, because if yuma is the rolecop, he made it impossible for himself to ever kill Voltaire now. So, keeping yuma alive might actually cause us to have even more time to find the last mafia (whoever it is).

[Eevee]

If yuma is telling the truth, how have the nights worked?

N1
Voltaire jails Robz
Yuma doctors Voltaire
XXX rolecops
XXX kills Voltaire (blocked via both doctoring)

N2
Voltaire jails yuma
yuma doctors Voltaire (blocked via jailing)
xxx kills yuma (blocked via jailing)
xxxx cops

Fixed for how I think it went.


Yuma, why the town reads on mcmc and mail-mi?

To me, none of them (including chairs) seem particularly towny. Mcmc has been totally useless today, mail-mi I think I perceive scummier when he is town (I think he is middling here), chairs is hard to read as there are no completed games from him to reference, but pretty null there too.

[Eevee]

mail-mi, you are still voting for yuma (suspicious!!), and liopoil (because you still harbor yuma suspision I'm sure:

Keeping yuma alive keeps Voltaire alive. When the amount of people alive decreases, jailkeeper starts becoming a powerhouse. He effectively has two shots at preventing the night kill - he can either hit the killer or the target. Even if yuma is mafia, he can't kill Voltaire as that would blow his cover. Doesn't that make keeping yuma alive the best plan, even if you think there is a good chance he is mafia? We can afford to have him try to kill for two nights here.

[shraeye]

Vote Count 3.3

liopoil (2): yuma, mcmcsalot

Not voting: chairs, Eevee, Voltaire, mail-mi, liopoil

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 9am forum time on Monday, July 20th

[mail-mi]

mail-mi, you are still voting for yuma (suspicious!!), and liopoil (because you still harbor yuma suspision I'm sure:

Keeping yuma alive keeps Voltaire alive. When the amount of people alive decreases, jailkeeper starts becoming a powerhouse. He effectively has two shots at preventing the night kill - he can either hit the killer or the target. Even if yuma is mafia, he can't kill Voltaire as that would blow his cover. Doesn't that make keeping yuma alive the best plan, even if you think there is a good chance he is mafia? We can afford to have him try to kill for two nights here.

...I'm not. And yes, I do want to keep yuma alive.

[liopoil]

mail-mi, you are still voting for yuma (suspicious!!), and liopoil (because you still harbor yuma suspision I'm sure:

Keeping yuma alive keeps Voltaire alive. When the amount of people alive decreases, jailkeeper starts becoming a powerhouse. He effectively has two shots at preventing the night kill - he can either hit the killer or the target. Even if yuma is mafia, he can't kill Voltaire as that would blow his cover. Doesn't that make keeping yuma alive the best plan, even if you think there is a good chance he is mafia? We can afford to have him try to kill for two nights here.

oh yes, I agree. It's just really convenient for him if he is scum. but yes, I am willing to let him live for now.

[liopoil]

I still think you are scum, but am nowhere near the 80% certain that you are about me, and I never was. So no, I will not accept your trade because it gives scum a very good chance if you are town, when they have little to no chance right now. And this level of certainty is part of my suspicion. It is super easy to fake suspicion as scum. And town just shouldn't be this certain about me, even if I was super-scummy, which I'm not. If you are town, Yuma, you are hurting town by getting so caught up in your theory that I am scum and fitting everything you see into your theory, making you more and more certain to the point where both of our mislynches seem inevitable.

I think we may be throwing away the big lead on scum that we have right now.

You won't be getting a case from me today. I have said already that it would be tell Monday that I would have sufficient time to do a full reread and put something together.

It is also super easy to fake being uncertain as mafia. See Robz in MXIX.

I am town, and I refuse to see how I am hurting town by having a scum read! My scum read is completely valid and legitimate. You have some scummy attributes. Far more so than anyone else in the game! Maybe I should just create scum reads on other players to even the playing field? NO! I see scummy, I call out scummy. That is how the game plays. And I am certainly not caught up in my theory. I am looking at what is being presented. I mean really... look at it from my point of view. Who else but you at this point is suspicious?

you haven't recommended anyone else to find scummy have you? Voltaire is out. eevee/spiritbears I really think is town based off the derphammer and Robz's pseudoinvestigation. Mcmc is playing exactly how I think town!mcmc plays. Mail-mi I still think was the easy day1 mislynch. Chairs is a toss up. But you thought he was the most likely NK aside from voltaire--so you must think he is townie...

So who else am I supposed to suspect? Mafia isn't me. I don't think it is any of those above players... therefore I am left with you, who also has scummy attributes.

Look if you are town, then I am wrong. It won't be the first time. But instead of saying that I am "hurting town" by presenting a case against you, maybe you should concentrate more on trying to figure out who is mafia. It isn't me, if it isn't you, then it is someone else. But it will take a bit to convince me to vote somewhere other than you. But I can be convinced if the case and evidence is compelling. But I haven't seen anything compelling on anyone except what I have presented on you.

I agree that voltaire, and chairs, and somewhat eevee/SB even are probably town. mail-mi and mcmc not so much. And then you.

my scum to town:

yuma
mcmcsalot
mail-mi
Eevee
chairs
voltaire

You aren't hurting town by having a scumread. You are hurting town by being too certain in your scumread when (at least I think) the evidence doesn't warrant it. That's only if you're town though.

[yuma]

Yuma, why the town reads on mcmc and mail-mi?

To me, none of them (including chairs) seem particularly towny. Mcmc has been totally useless today, mail-mi I think I perceive scummier when he is town (I think he is middling here), chairs is hard to read as there are no completed games from him to reference, but pretty null there too.

well as I said before, I think mcmc is playing how he does as town. Lack of interest, lower post count, not dictating the game, etc etc... Now this could be a ploy. I admit it. But I don't think it is. The reason: because for a ploy it is on the riskier side. It is very easy for a handful of us to get up in arms and say "mcmc is lurking and playing weird! Let's lynch him" and then he is dead, game over... I tend to think that play styles like this--even if you have a meta defense--are more likely to be town than scum. I don't remember much interaction between robz and mcmc. There could have been some, I would want to go back and look.

Mail-mi, again as I said before I think was the easy mislynch. Robz is one example of a person that was on it and actively pushing it. Why? Because I think it was the easy one. For mail-mi to be Robz's partner he had to have been bussing. Possible. But again I say in a 9 player game, bussing is generally going to be a bad move.


But really the thing is that I haven't seen anything that jumps out to me as scum from them. Not in the same way that I have seen behavior from liopoil. I know I haven't outlined a big old fancy case... been kinda busy and still will be tonight (sorry)... but at the same time I dont' see anyone else doing any rereading or posting cases... What is going on? Is everyone just waiting for me? Or is everyone also busy (a valid answer obviously). But just because I haven't reread fully or made up a big case (or even a small case) doesn't mean other people can't...

[Eevee]

Good, valid points. I agree, especially about mcmc.
I'd be willing to vote for liopoil, as that's where the PoE points at.

[Voltaire]

Good, valid points. I agree, especially about mcmc.
I'd be willing to vote for liopoil, as that's where the PoE points at.

Why are we willing to leave Yuma alive if we think he's scum? He's claimed doctor and if he's scum, it's working. We've "agreed" to his plan not to lynch him until mylo/lylo, at which point he'll have some super-compelling case on someone else after saying he's mistaken.

I mean, I'm willing to lynch lio because he's my top off-wagon scumread, so that's cool. But if he's Robz's scumbuddy why is he the only one to try to alter the Robz/Voltaire direction? Isn't that a bit obvious? And his rebuttal to yuma's case is pretty good. I like his substance but not his style (his style was scummy to me).

If lio/yuma is town v town, I say last scum is mail-mi. Yes, Robz would try to bus/tunnel like that.

[mail-mi]

Good, valid points. I agree, especially about mcmc.
I'd be willing to vote for liopoil, as that's where the PoE points at.

Me too.

[Eevee]

Its because leaving yuma alive if he isn't lying is pretty great! We shouldn't fear his case making skills, on the contrary they'll be helping us if he is town. And, well, your jailkeeping might give us some information on later days.

In short, the same reason we don't generally lynch claimed power roles early in other situations either.

[liopoil]

well this is frustrating. I'm in the position where my top scumread isn't going to get lynched, and I see the reasoning behind that, hence my unvote. And everyone seems to be willing to lynch me. I can't push an alternative wagon because I really don't believe too heavily in an alternative wagon, so it leads me right back to Yuma being scum. so it seems that I am the only lynch that can happen today. And I mean, I don't really understand why I've been so separated from everyone else. Nobody except yuma has really said why they think I'm scum, and I responded to yuma, and people agree with my rebuttle! So I don't know what I can do. In previous times when I've been nearly mislynched I've avoided it by defending myself, but there's nothing for me to defend myself against because you're using POE! And the thing is, I kind of agree with the POE! And yuma hasn't even made his case yet! I can't respond to that! I understand he's busy and all, but I can't respond to a case that isn't there yet.

I'd like people to see why people think I'm scum, so I can at least defend myself. If it's just POE, I might as well self-vote and get it over with, because there's nothing I can do about that. Sometimes scum looks townie, and that's when they win.

I'm in a lose-lose situation here. I'm town, and there's no way for me to prevent my mislynch.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

since we aren't lynching Yuma today, I might as well assume he's town. And since I'm town too, that means that scum is playing a very good game, and that's scary, because with my mislynch today and yuma's mislynch in mylo/lylo, we only have one chance to catch the scum in {chairs, mcmc, mail-mi, eevee, voltaire}. (remember I am assuming yuma is town because we aren't lynching him).

So really, at this point, I feel like we've lost our advantage on scum. Scum is winning now.

[Eevee]

That's simply not true. (if it was, we should be lynching yuma.)

[liopoil]

what's not true? that yuma hasn't made his case? well, he was going to write up a big fancy thing. he's said stuff for sure, and there's the case from D2. But I've responded to all that! Not anything more for me to do.

I dunno, it's weird. I guess eventually there's always a point where you've done all that you can do and just have to resign yourself to being mislynched.

[Eevee]

Oh, I was referring to the last two lines of your post. "Scum has the advantage now" is an incorrect conclusion.

[liopoil]

if yuma is town, then I think they do, because they only need to get one more mislynch, as they seem to have the yuma and liopoil mislynches in the bad.

I feel like we're betting the game on one of yuma and I being scum. Not literally, but fairly close.

[Eevee]

It's not even that close, although I do see your worry. You are just seriously underestimating the power this town has during nights if yuma is town and gets to work his magic with volt. jailkeeper is very good in the following nights, and hopefully we have a doc too.

[yuma]

tomorrow morning I will do a full reread and present cases on everyone.

I do feel for lio if he is town and will try to approach it in the fairest way that I am able--there will be bias, but I will try to counter it as best as I can.

[mcmcsalot]

I still think you are scum, but am nowhere near the 80% certain that you are about me, and I never was. So no, I will not accept your trade because it gives scum a very good chance if you are town, when they have little to no chance right now. And this level of certainty is part of my suspicion. It is super easy to fake suspicion as scum. And town just shouldn't be this certain about me, even if I was super-scummy, which I'm not. If you are town, Yuma, you are hurting town by getting so caught up in your theory that I am scum and fitting everything you see into your theory, making you more and more certain to the point where both of our mislynches seem inevitable.

I think we may be throwing away the big lead on scum that we have right now.

You won't be getting a case from me today. I have said already that it would be tell Monday that I would have sufficient time to do a full reread and put something together.

It is also super easy to fake being uncertain as mafia. See Robz in MXIX.

I am town, and I refuse to see how I am hurting town by having a scum read! My scum read is completely valid and legitimate. You have some scummy attributes. Far more so than anyone else in the game! Maybe I should just create scum reads on other players to even the playing field? NO! I see scummy, I call out scummy. That is how the game plays. And I am certainly not caught up in my theory. I am looking at what is being presented. I mean really... look at it from my point of view. Who else but you at this point is suspicious?

you haven't recommended anyone else to find scummy have you? Voltaire is out. eevee/spiritbears I really think is town based off the derphammer and Robz's pseudoinvestigation. Mcmc is playing exactly how I think town!mcmc plays. Mail-mi I still think was the easy day1 mislynch. Chairs is a toss up. But you thought he was the most likely NK aside from voltaire--so you must think he is townie...

So who else am I supposed to suspect? Mafia isn't me. I don't think it is any of those above players... therefore I am left with you, who also has scummy attributes.

Look if you are town, then I am wrong. It won't be the first time. But instead of saying that I am "hurting town" by presenting a case against you, maybe you should concentrate more on trying to figure out who is mafia. It isn't me, if it isn't you, then it is someone else. But it will take a bit to convince me to vote somewhere other than you. But I can be convinced if the case and evidence is compelling. But I haven't seen anything compelling on anyone except what I have presented on you.

I agree that voltaire, and chairs, and somewhat eevee/SB even are probably town. mail-mi and mcmc not so much. And then you.

my scum to town:

yuma
mcmcsalot
mail-mi
Eevee
chairs
voltaire

You aren't hurting town by having a scumread. You are hurting town by being too certain in your scumread when (at least I think) the evidence doesn't warrant it. That's only if you're town though.

Funny enough I agree with the en somewhat. I think if we lynch you and Yuma and mail-mi we win. Though I need to reread chairs.

[liopoil]

It's not even that close, although I do see your worry. You are just seriously underestimating the power this town has during nights if yuma is town and gets to work his magic with volt. jailkeeper is very good in the following nights, and hopefully we have a doc too.

oh, I hadn't even considered that the scum still needs to get NKs through... hmmm, yes that makes it very difficult. okay, that makes me feel better about it.

[Voltaire]

I should clarify - I am willing to lynch lio simply so that we have a lynch (eliminating town helps us find mafia at this point since we're in such amazing shape) and think there's a >0% chance he's scum, but it's not my preferred course of action. I would rather lynch yuma or pressure mail-mi more. Also totally willing to scumhunt others but I have varying degrees of town reads on everyone else.

Because the situation where we lynch yuma and it turns out he's the doctor also isn't that bad, because we still have me to lock up some mafia. And I am not so sure we aren't already in that situation with a fakeclaim.

So lio, who is your top scum read? Is it yuma, or was that just pushing him as the only viable alternative lynch (which is a bit OMGUS)?

Basically town let's come to a decision, we have time to get it wrong.

[yuma]

Because the situation where we lynch yuma and it turns out he's the doctor also isn't that bad, because we still have me to lock up some mafia. And I am not so sure we aren't already in that situation with a fakeclaim.

I agree it isn't that bad. But compared to the option of not lynching me it is significantly worse. Because you would only have one chance to JK someone and if you get it wrong... you die. And town is left w/o PRs or IC in you. So it isn't that bad in that I think we (and by we, I mean everyone that is left, because I would be dead) would still be able to find the remaining mafia with pretty good odds. But keeping me alive results in at least the three more days we have and maybe more if you don't JK me and I doctor you each night (maybe you will be able to JK the killer or the killie and we will get more days out of it).

But ultimately again I say that if you disbelieve me then lynch me. But if you have doubts.... keep me alive and then lynch me at mylo or lylo. I won't fight it. I really won't. I'll vote for myself. Because at that point we would have deserved to lose if we weren't able to figure out who the last remaining mafia is in the two days we do have + whatever else we gain from no NKs...

[yuma]

Cases on everyone coming up:

Let's start with the less obvious: eevee/spiritbears.

Points why eevee/spiritbears might be mafia:
- Robz used him as his pseudo cop investigation. Note I have this listed both here and below. Robz might have paired himself with his partner. Possible certainly...
- the hammer: could be a scum derp!hammer. I admit it is possible. But I doubt it.

Points why eevee/spiritbears might not be mafia:
- not really a point, but if he is then robz/spiritbears were mafia again together. Really odds? Really?
- day1 I felt he was consistent in his reads and opinions and posts. He disliked my case on mail-mi (certainly a valid point) he also refused to be pressured away from voting me in the same way that Voltaire wasn't.
- His hammer at the end of day1. Lio sees it as scummy. I don't. I really don't. His switch on nkiribit just read so much more of a frustration switch to me than anything scummy.
- Robz used him as his pseudo cop investigation. One point I want to make is that in a time when you are fake claiming you want people to believe you. It is paramount. And a good way to do that is to make sure that you portray someone else (that isn't on your team) in a positive light. Robz's picking eevee I believe might have been intended to help eevee side with robz if it came to that. In that light Robz would have support from both eevee and his teammate and would only need support from a handful of others.
- there is a pretty significant argument between robz and spiritbears right before spiritbears leaves. I think this has the marks of town spiritbears against scum!robz. Again could be faked. But that sort of spat can be hard to fake.
- eevee forgot to include robz on his list when he initially came into the game.
- Robz's claim. I doubt that robz would do something like that w/o consulting with his new scum partner (eevee). Just too crazy.
- Eevee has played townie since he came into the game.

Summary: pretty strong on the town side.

[yuma]

mail-mi:

Could be mafia:
- lurky.
- his stance of mcmc early (what initially caught my eye on him)
- his convenient reread of nkiribit and finding him scummy for it. But we have seen town!mail-mi do that as well. So kinda null there...
- finding spiritbears scummy at beginning of day2. But wrong reads (or reads different from me) isn't necessarily scummy, but kinda surprising.
- joined the robz wagon w/o much thought it appears... maybe joining his partner's wagon just to be on it.


Couldn't be mafia:
- lurky like town!mail-mi
- bussed by mafia (robz) pretty significantly at day2 and throughout day1. Yes bussing can happen. But people... bussing in a 9 player game. Just hard, hard to do and risky. But just as risky as claiming cop day2 as well. But robz doing both risky things? That might be a bit much for me.
- really looked like the easy mislynch day1 that was being pushed by at least one mafia member (robz)


summary: in the middle. Given that there are 5 players I am analyzing and only 1 mafia I don't mind putting someone that is null on the more townie side... So on the townier side of things, but not the most townie.

[yuma]

chairs:

Might be mafia:
- his certainty about robz being mafia. If he was certain w/o reason this would be a major read flag. As it would indicate that robz told him to buss him, but that chairs as a newer player might have struggled to find reasons for doing so. So this is less so, but still being completely accurate about a scum read with that level of certainty does raise some eyebrows.
- has been pretty quiet in terms of reads aside from his certainty about robz.


Might not be mafia:
- was the early target from Robz. Bussing again. But 9 player game! Bussing is bad and so, so hard. So town points for him.
- voted for robz often and early day1 and day2. Wasn't constantly on that case, but pretty often. Again bussing. For a new player that takes guts. Maybe was instructed by Robz to do so. But.... man. I think his rationale is pretty good though. It isn't like he was just voting for robz w/o reason. I felt most of his reasons throughout were pretty compelling.

Again in the middle, but on the more townie side of the middle. Rereading chairs he did harp on Robz a lot. Now did he do it as townie or a scum with knowledge and told to do so by Robz? This is ultimately the question for chairs and if we can answer it I think it will make the difference for him.

I think I might even put him on the scummier side of mail-mi. That is if robz was partners with chairs the mutual bussing was a little more transparent than the bussing between mail-mi and robz. But they are pretty close.

[yuma]

mcmc:

Might be mafia:
- extremely lurky (39 posts for the whole game--the false start game as well), but he is busy enough to /out of other games.
- has kinda "sheeped" me on nkirbit and liopoil. but that is a pretty good way to play if you are super busy (follow someone that you consider to be town), but it also can be a convenient way to post as busy mafia.


Might not be mafia:
- appears to be town!mcmc that we have seen before when he was busy. scum!mcmc finds time in his busy life to post because it is essential to do so, to manipulate town and force to away from you or your scum buddy you have to post. town!mcmc doesn't make posting a prioirty because it isn't and he just posts when he can...
- his "vt claim" this part is becoming less and less important to me. But it was the basis of my town read from the beginning and I still want to include it.
- immediately on the voltaire side of the counter claim and has reasoning and rationale to prove it.

townier side. I think more so than mail-mi and chairs. But not as much as eevee.

[yuma]

liopoil:

might be mafia:
- self referencing (LVS), small point, but want to repeat it.
- was one of the joiner-ons of my initial case on mail-mi. I repeat that I found people that joined that or supported it (robz supported it day1, but didn't vote) to be scummy. It was the focus of my case on nkirbit and while I was wrong about him, I still believe the principle that mail-mi was the easy mislynch that I think mafia would try to push through
- mcmc has brought this up in a previous game (and was wrong) but I am noticing it here. Lio does appear to be trying to setup mislynches for the next day. Specifically he is casting a great amount of suspicion toward me and spiritbears--all the while considering voting for nkirbit and following my case, basically trying to say "yuma makes a good point, but if he is wrong {he is and I know it} I am going to find him very scummy for it and vote him tomorrow, so should you..."
- pushed what looked like another super easy mislynch right out of the gates day2 on spiritbears. Looked planned and tried to take hold of town and push the momentum in a specific direction (note that the direction was certainly away from robz, his potential partner as he was pushing toward mail-mi, yuma and spiritbears)
- uses a tactic that I will call "righteous indignation" that I know mafia uses pretty often. This is saying "spiritbears it was wrong for you to vote nkirbit, we still could have moved away from that lynch and been right! We could have changed and lynched mafia day1! Why, o Why! did you derphammer, becasue you did this you are soooo scummy because only scum would do something sooo bad." {dramatized, but you get the point}
- mildly defends robz against chairs
- is really opposed to my talk about claiming (easy position for mafia to take, that claiming talk is bad), but I wonder if he knew that if "follow the doc" happened it would be bad for him and his team?
- I hate to put this into it, but I knew that lio was online and looking at this thread after the robz/voltaire claims. I even called him out on it. Now... he might not have seen it, I dont' know.. being away from the computer or something. But it does make me wonder. Did he see the claims and then shut the computer so he would have time to think of what to say and how to respond? I don't know. But it surprised me when I saw him looking at the thread, but didn't respond until much, much later.
- was really the only player that expressed doubt about voltaire--but in a safe way--was very non commital at the start, kinda like he was testing the waters and seeing if anyone else would possibly agree with him and move the tide toward voltaire. When he saw it wouldn't he said he was ok with a robz lynch (but was still pretty strongly against actually lynching, for what reason I still don't know...) Now people have already mentioned that if this is true it was pretty obvious. Yes, but at that juncture if lio is mafia he is desperate. His partner just claimed in what I think was probably an unplanned way. He is scrambling. He knows that if robz goes down the game is basically over. So he is being risky and obvious because he has to be to have any chance of lynching voltaire instead of robz.
- even after robz was lynched he was really the only one hypothesizing about voltaire being mafia... Really? Volt is IC man... and even w/o my info to confirm this it is pretty apparent that
- he has been the most skeptical that Robz wouldn't have performed the NK, because thinking that he didn't requires him to believe there is a doctor and thus not believe me. Everyone else thinks robz didn't perform the kill, lio still is like "guys, we don't know that! and since we don't know that, yuma is probably lying!"
- look if lio is mafia, the best chance he had was to lynch me the doc. With me alive his chances of winning are very slim and he was very unwilling to give up that option. He eventually did, but only after it was apparent that it wasn't going to happen.

Might not be mafia:
- has been active and vocal. But I would except that from town!lio or scum!lio.
- some obvious stuff arguments. Yes, if lio is mafia there has been some obvious play
- his defenses have been pretty strong, but I would expect that.


Still strongest scum read. Lio if you aren't mafia then sorry man. You have a lot of indicators pointing to it however. Like not just a lot, like more than all the other players combined.

vote: lio again, I think others should as well.

[mail-mi]

Man that's compelling... I would go back and look at some more stuff from lio but I think yuma's covered everything.

vote: liopoil

[Voltaire]

So lio looks like the only lynch we can get through today, no? If that's the case I'll vote.

We've heard from lio, yuma, mail-mi. mcmc, chairs, Eevee, if you're not cool with a lio lynch, let me know soon.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote Count 3.4

liopoil (3): yuma, mcmcsalot, mail-mi

Not voting: chairs, Eevee, Voltaire, liopoil

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 9am forum time on Monday, July 20th

[liopoil]

stop. halt. desist. why? because I'm scum and need time to scramble and grasp at straws, that's why! [/sarcasm]

[mail-mi]

Guys, let's give lio a chance to

scramble and grasp at straws,

while we wait for someone with intent to hammer.

[liopoil]

Man that's compelling... I would go back and look at some more stuff from lio but I think yuma's covered everything.

vote: liopoil

dude, no, just no. You're doing town a major disservice if your town. You've changed your mind on me every time one of us makes a big post!

[Voltaire]

stop. halt. desist. why? because I'm scum and need time to scramble and grasp at straws, that's why! [/sarcasm]

See, this is the sort of posts you've been making that make me worried you're scum. Town is frustrated but willing to die if it helps catch scum. You'd be putting your own reads out there, making sure we get info from your flip, realizing we'd still have PRs, etc. generally going down as a good VT.

I still think town wins this even if we're wrong.

Intent to hammer, lio.

[liopoil]

I should clarify - I am willing to lynch lio simply so that we have a lynch (eliminating town helps us find mafia at this point since we're in such amazing shape) and think there's a >0% chance he's scum, but it's not my preferred course of action. I would rather lynch yuma or pressure mail-mi more. Also totally willing to scumhunt others but I have varying degrees of town reads on everyone else.

Because the situation where we lynch yuma and it turns out he's the doctor also isn't that bad, because we still have me to lock up some mafia. And I am not so sure we aren't already in that situation with a fakeclaim.

So lio, who is your top scum read? Is it yuma, or was that just pushing him as the only viable alternative lynch (which is a bit OMGUS)?

Basically town let's come to a decision, we have time to get it wrong.

Oh, I'd prefer to be lynched over a no lynch, for sure. But I'd rather lynch someone else. You're the freaking IC! you need to decide who you want lynched and try to get them lynched, not just go with what everyone else wants to do.

Yuma is my top scumread, but is not my top choice for a lynch
Mcmc and mail-mi are very close in my second top scumreads.

[Voltaire]

If there was a one-on, one-off scum D1, it's lio.

mail-mi (1): nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
nkirbit (5): mail-mi, Robz888, mcmcsalot, yuma, spiritbears
yuma (1): Voltaire

Not voting: liopoil

Honestly, much more than yuma's case, that's what I'm going on most in being comfortable with this vote. And we still have the night.

[liopoil]

stop. halt. desist. why? because I'm scum and need time to scramble and grasp at straws, that's why! [/sarcasm]

See, this is the sort of posts you've been making that make me worried you're scum. Town is frustrated but willing to die if it helps catch scum. You'd be putting your own reads out there, making sure we get info from your flip, realizing we'd still have PRs, etc. generally going down as a good VT.

I still think town wins this even if we're wrong.

Intent to hammer, lio.

what does that post have to do with anything! AND I'M PUTTING MY READS OUT THERE!! I've done more scumhunting than everyone except for yuma! how did you not know my scumreads? I posted them!

please read my freaking posts!

and "town wins this even if we're wrong" is a terrible way to think about this. I'd much rather we not be wrong.

[liopoil]

I dunno man. Scum have to get a mislynch through D1. I think scum are willing to both be on wagon to make it happen, especially if they think town will be looking for a scum off wagon like they are now.

[Voltaire]

You're the freaking IC! you need to decide who you want lynched and try to get them lynched, not just go with what everyone else wants to do.

Yeah, I've decided it's not actually that much fun to be an IC. There's a lot of pressure.

Sorry if this is a derphammer, folks! See my previous posts for why I'm ok doing this.

Vote: liopoil

[yuma]

K volt, if lio flips town I need you to not JK me.

This requires trust i know

[liopoil]

oh well.

[yuma]

but that trust will be rewarded by either us winning the game, or by me resigning to a loss when we get to mylo lylo.

But if you JK me, I can't protect you.

[liopoil]

if you JK him, he can't kill you either

[Voltaire]

but that trust will be rewarded by either us winning the game, or by me resigning to a loss when we get to mylo lylo.

But if you JK me, I can't protect you.

I know that. Are you setting up WIFOM? Do you know lio is going to flip town? Stop making me regret my decision.

[yuma]

and like eevee said, if I am mafia (I am not, but I know that you kinda suspect me) I can't NK you because that would blow my cover. But all of that is dependent on you not JKing me.

I know I am asking for a lot here and that is why I am willing to offer up a lot at mylo/lylo.

[yuma]

but that trust will be rewarded by either us winning the game, or by me resigning to a loss when we get to mylo lylo.

But if you JK me, I can't protect you.

I know that. Are you setting up WIFOM? Do you know lio is going to flip town? Stop making me regret my decision.

No... this is why I am willing to offer up my lynch at mylo or lylo. It does put pressue on both of us to get it right, but that is the pressure that we accept by being PRs.

I do wish you had held off the hammer so we could talk this over before the thread locks.

I do think lio will flip mafia, but I certainly don't know anything hence my mad scramble to post before thread lock to make sure we are on teh same page.

[Voltaire]

but that trust will be rewarded by either us winning the game, or by me resigning to a loss when we get to mylo lylo.

But if you JK me, I can't protect you.

This does not compute.

I want to win this game. I don't know how much longer I will be playing mafia and ultimately this game matters more than the next 10! Because I am in this game, I don't know if I will be in the next one.

[liopoil]

my scum to town:

yuma
mcmcsalot
mail-mi
Eevee
chairs
voltaire

should I write my own flip?

[yuma]

because if you do JK me and mafia decides to target you, I am dead. I know that. I will be completely dead. And then town will be in an awful position. So even if you do suspect me, it is in your (our) best interest to have you not JK me.

But hopefully none of this matters and lio is mafia.

[Voltaire]

I do think lio will flip mafia, but I certainly don't know anything hence my mad scramble to post before thread lock to make sure we are on teh same page.

Believe me, I understand our situation tonight if you're really the doctor.

[yuma]

but that trust will be rewarded by either us winning the game, or by me resigning to a loss when we get to mylo lylo.

But if you JK me, I can't protect you.

This does not compute.

I want to win this game. I don't know how much longer I will be playing mafia and ultimately this game matters more than the next 10! Because I am in this game, I don't know if I will be in the next one.

Of course it computes!

Look at the context! I am so sure we can win this game I am willing to stake losing on it. I am sure we can win. but only if we don't blow it and lose the two PRs!

[yuma]

I do think lio will flip mafia, but I certainly don't know anything hence my mad scramble to post before thread lock to make sure we are on teh same page.

Believe me, I understand our situation tonight if you're really the doctor.

Good then I will stop panicing. All I saw was your vote and then impending lock and didn't know if we were on the same page or not and wanted to make sure that we were.

[liopoil]

dunno. If I'm town and in lylo, and I promised people that I would self-vote and give myself up for the losing lynch, I would break my promise. but that's not gonna happen, cause I'm dead now.

[liopoil]

I wonder if TA will post a flip, he's been doing votecounts, and shraeye is offline.

Also, after this game, I will be becoming "hidden".

[Voltaire]

Also, after this game, I will be becoming "hidden".

Do you mean "always offline"? It's a good idea, I did it ages ago before my absence to prevent that sort of analysis of me.

[liopoil]

yup, always offline. It'll hurt coordinating quickhammers with my buddies, but it'll make it easier to avoid people like yuma catching me lurking.

[Twistedarcher]

THREAD LOCKED!

[Twistedarcher]

Vote Count 3.5

liopoil (4): yuma, mcmcsalot, mail-mi, Voltaire

Not voting: chairs, Eevee, liopoil

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 9am forum time on Monday, July 20th


Sorry, I don't know the flip. You'll have to wait for Shraeye!

[shraeye]

Well well well.  It has been done.  Liopoil, the Mafia Rolecop, has been lynched (and this time I get it right first try!)


So time for post-game and everything.

Here are some QTs:
Spec: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/DKsWxduJwcqEq
Mafia: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/wJF7YBs3b6ixA
Mod: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/NFg7KjCgZPPw

[shraeye]

I'm pretty sure I'm always hidden; maybe I'm not...I don't pay much attention to that stuff.

[Voltaire]

Awesome. Great job yuma! I tip my cap to you. Now I just have to find a cap...

Seriously though, fantastic work. And great game, everyone! This was lots of fun. And thanks Shraeye for modding. 

[yuma]

Ha!

I'll be back to say more, have friends over!

Ha!

[Robz888]

What a disaster! Good job town

And actually, good job liopoil, I'm surprised you survived more than 2 seconds today.

[Voltaire]

What a disaster! Good job town

And actually, good job liopoil, I'm surprised you survived more than 2 seconds today.

I am not so good! 

From the scum QT:

Liopoil kills voltaire and rolecops Yuma.

Ohmygod

[Robz888]

So, you all got pretty lucky in your night actioning that first night. Yuma saving Voltaire was the big one. Ugh!!!

I thought I had to try the Cop claim thing, because I was a little worried that people were on to me, and it's the sort of big move that I like. And really, I think it had a good chance of working, if the stupid JK hadn't jailed me!!!!

[liopoil]

yeah, town PRs worked insanely well. I feel like we got pretty unlucky, cause I think we did the right actions. I mean N1, we tried to kill the JK, and N2, I figured out yuma was the doc and tried to kill him. But town PRs did better, N1 yuma saves the JK, and JK jails fakeclaiming scum.

And the thing was, I was HEAVILY considering fakeclaiming cop with town result on mail-mi. That would have worked amazingly.

But yeah, from the start of D3 I had no shot, I was surprised at how long I lived too, though that was mostly because yuma was busy



Yuma and Voltaire pretty much double-handedly won the game for town.

[Voltaire]

Yuma and Voltaire pretty much double-handedly won the game for town.

I say yuma for MVP easily, both for his day-play and for his N1 action. And now that I know you're town, yuma, I'm going to go re-read our D1/D2 stuff and take it to heart!

Kinda proud scum wanted to kill me D1. Aw shucks, guys. 

[chairs]

Woot

[ashersky]

Yuma and Voltaire pretty much double-handedly won the game for town.

I say yuma for MVP easily, both for his day-play and for his N1 action. And now that I know you're town, yuma, I'm going to go re-read our D1/D2 stuff and take it to heart!

Kinda proud scum wanted to kill me D1. Aw shucks, guys. 

Guys, this is why when yuma is town, you NK him N1.  And if he doesn't get NKed N1, he's scum.

[mail-mi]

YAY! First town win in a normal mafia game for me!

[mcmcsalot]

Wow I guess I did more help as town then I thought. I guess the secret is to go with my gut and then never post or change

[liopoil]

Wow I guess I did more help as town then I thought. I guess the secret is to go with my gut and then never post or change

no. this is a terrible idea..... It has worked once for you.

[yuma]

So, you all got pretty lucky in your night actioning that first night. Yuma saving Voltaire was the big one. Ugh!!!

I thought I had to try the Cop claim thing, because I was a little worried that people were on to me, and it's the sort of big move that I like. And really, I think it had a good chance of working, if the stupid JK hadn't jailed me!!!!

Agreed. This game would have went quite a bit different had I decided to doc lio instead. I said it before, but lio and volt were the two I suggested to shraeye that I would doc before I knew the flip and I ultimately decided on Volt.

And I'll have you all know I tried very hard to be scummy day1. Creating that case on mail-mi, using defensive meta arguments against volt and spiritbears, trying to make sure I was on the day1 wagon. It was quite the effort to be scummy enough to not be NKed, but also not get lynched. In the end I am more proud of that than guessing right between volt and lio.

Now my day2 case on lio on the other hand.... pretty proud of that one. Although lio did have me worried that I was wrong toward the end. And if we didn't have as much wiggle room as we did I might have been convinced otherwise.

[Twistedarcher]

Good work town! That was a truly impressive performance, especially by the PRs.

I'm pumped that I guessed the scum team before Robz' claim

[yuma]

Yuma's "I won't fight a lynch at LYLO" is really shady, and obviously untrue. He's absolutely going to fight the lynch if we get to that spot, and he knows it, and everyone in the game should know it, too.

No. I was being completely sincere. In that I was sure that we could find mafia before it got to that point and if we couldn't... well I wouldn't fight being lynched because at that point I would deserve to lose and question whether or not I have any skill at playing mafia...

[Twistedarcher]

Yuma's "I won't fight a lynch at LYLO" is really shady, and obviously untrue. He's absolutely going to fight the lynch if we get to that spot, and he knows it, and everyone in the game should know it, too.

No. I was being completely sincere. In that I was sure that we could find mafia before it got to that point and if we couldn't... well I wouldn't fight being lynched because at that point I would deserve to lose and question whether or not I have any skill at playing mafia...

But I'd still hope that you would fight the mislynch even at that point!

[yuma]

I probably wouldnt' have voted for myself, but I would have been beat down and depressed and really... town wouldn't have believed me. So yeah, I would have given up. But ultimately I really, really didn't think we would get into that situation and I needed something to offer up so I wouldn't be JKed during the night. Because if I am mafia the only way I can win is if volt doesnt' believe me and JKs (yuma) allowing mafia to NK volt (which I would have done night after night and probably would have done as well night2, until I hit him, causing yuma to come off as extremely suspicious, woudl have been a long shot, but a better shot that what mafia had at that point)

[yuma]

It seems like Volt will jail the wrong scum. Wouldn't it be neato if yuma docs Volt, volt survives, and then Robz fake-claims cop? Probably won't happen. At least that last part. I don't think that Robz was setting up a fake-claim.

best mod commentary ever. Everything came true!

[yuma]

mumblemumbleyumaiskillingmemumblemumble

this made me smile lio.

Totally feel where you are coming from. Not much worse than being mafia and knowing that the game is crashing around your feet... me in MXIX.... I was talking to myself like a mad man and ranting to joth. Fun times.

It would have been very interesting to see what would have happened had you claimed doc cop--seriously everytime I try to type cop I say doc--instead of Robz. I think I might have followed you into it... But given that I was already suspicious of you.... I don't know.

[shraeye]

It seems like Volt will jail the wrong scum. Wouldn't it be neato if yuma docs Volt, volt survives, and then Robz fake-claims cop? Probably won't happen. At least that last part. I don't think that Robz was setting up a fake-claim.

best mod commentary ever. Everything came true!

Hah, I got lazy in my commentary as the game went on.  But I like reading those threads post-game, so I tried to say all my thoughts.

Wow I guess I did more help as town then I thought. I guess the secret is to go with my gut and then never post or change

Brilliant!

[Robz888]

I support yuma for MVP. Really well done. He was basically able to narrow it down to either me, lio, or mail-mi, even before the claiming debacle.

[mail-mi]

I also

support yuma for MVP.

[Voltaire]

And I'll have you all know I tried very hard to be scummy day1. Creating that case on mail-mi, using defensive meta arguments against volt and spiritbears, trying to make sure I was on the day1 wagon. It was quite the effort to be scummy enough to not be NKed, but also not get lynched. In the end I am more proud of that than guessing right between volt and lio.

Ha! I regret nothing!

[Voltaire]

And I'll have you all know I tried very hard to be scummy day1. Creating that case on mail-mi, using defensive meta arguments against volt and spiritbears, trying to make sure I was on the day1 wagon. It was quite the effort to be scummy enough to not be NKed, but also not get lynched. In the end I am more proud of that than guessing right between volt and lio.

Ha! I regret nothing!

Argh, you know what I mean.

[mcmcsalot]

Ohh scum liopoil looks like town mcmc when he's under pressure. Good to note, maybe ill stop tunneling you one day...though in all honestly I only think I have been wrong I tunneling you once(mean girls) here you were scum, other times I have been scum using the tunnel liopoil and do nothing else plan. Though I'm sure my playstyle will be much different when I come back, sorry if the tunneling was frustrating!

[Eevee]

Good game! Mvp for yuma, well done.

[nkirbit]

Woohoo! Go town!

[mail-mi]

It also really hurt robz/liopoil that they never got a NK.

[mcmcsalot]

Wait was this a legitimate flawless town win in a normal game? That's quite impressive.

[mcmcsalot]

Aww, curse that nrkbit lynch

[chairs]

Gut instinct confirmed good time

[sudgy]

Well, I come back and the game is over...  And I have basically no idea what happened

[mail-mi]

Well, I come back and the game is over...  And I have basically no idea what happened

Hey welcome back!

[mail-mi]

Well, I come back and the game is over...  And I have basically no idea what happened

Almost flawless town victory. Only one town death.

Also, only one town lynch!

[chairs]

Good game! Mvp for yuma, well done.