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[eHalcyon]

There are three official cards that give VP chips: Bishop, Goons and Monument. Bishop and Goons can't continue indefinitely as they need more cards to trash or buy (Fortress aside).

Just pointing out that Goons can potentially go indefinitely with ambassador (though admittedly this takes a lot of work, so it's probably just fine) and, more importantly, bishop can always continue indefinitely, as you still get a point just for playing it, even if you trash nothing. Sure, it's not going to be a problem... almost ever, but it can happen.

I think Trader is a better card for infinite Goons.

[Warfreak2]

I thought about Ambassador, but it gives your opponent a copy, so they need to Ambassador it back two at a time too. I can't imagine a motivation for you and your opponent to cooperate in such a way. I guess if they always have a Moat or a Lighthouse... but that's getting silly.

Trader, I didn't think about. That's a nice one, I must say! But like Monument, it produces money, and those Colonies aren't actually reducing your score when you buy them.

[ConMan]

I like Kirian's idea, and WW's analysis shows that absent other coin-giving cards it's probably balanceable, if not already balanced. I had an alternative idea:

Worth 1 VP for every 3 coin tokens you have.
---
When you gain this, gain 1 coin token.
---
When you trash this, gain 2 coin tokens.

A little bit too close to Feodum, maybe?

[ftl]

I suspect we won't have any "when you trash this" cards. That was Dark Ages' thing, and Guilds was originally slated for before Dark Ages.

[WanderingWinder]

I like Kirian's idea, and WW's analysis shows that absent other coin-giving cards it's probably balanceable, if not already balanced. I had an alternative idea:

I don't think my analysis shows that at all!

Worth 1 VP for every 3 coin tokens you have.
---
When you gain this, gain 1 coin token.
---
When you trash this, gain 2 coin tokens.

A little bit too close to Feodum, maybe?

What does this cost? The problem is, this is no good in games without other token-producing cards. I mean, it could cost 1, really, and I don't think I'd buy it too often, especially without trashing. I mean, it's just impossible to get it to be worth all that much. I suppose if you can gain them all and trash 2 and have 6 which are worth 4 each or something, but that seems like a lot of work.

[soulnet]

I see the point on the card being difficult, and I am also aware of why cards giving VP chips or possibly any VP that do not harm your deck, need to be carefully. But I also imagine people thinking a non-terminal or cantrip Curser is too powerful before seeing Familiar, or that costs other than coins are absurd (hey, some people still say this). I myself thought about cards picking things from the trash, but ended up thinking there was probably a good reason for that not to exist. Same with costs $1 and $7. Same with VP chips (I like those, but I like the careful balance between VP and useful cards you need to do in games without them, because its an interesting and novel thing about Dominion).

Anyway, I'm not defending any particular implementation, and I can agree about all comments made here against them. I just still don't see that there is enough evidence for the strict impossibility, and providing examples clearly does not work because its way easier to take down an example that does not work than to come up, in a couple of minutes, with one that does work.

[WanderingWinder]

I see the point on the card being difficult, and I am also aware of why cards giving VP chips or possibly any VP that do not harm your deck, need to be carefully. But I also imagine people thinking a non-terminal or cantrip Curser is too powerful before seeing Familiar, or that costs other than coins are absurd (hey, some people still say this). I myself thought about cards picking things from the trash, but ended up thinking there was probably a good reason for that not to exist. Same with costs $1 and $7. Same with VP chips (I like those, but I like the careful balance between VP and useful cards you need to do in games without them, because its an interesting and novel thing about Dominion).

Anyway, I'm not defending any particular implementation, and I can agree about all comments made here against them. I just still don't see that there is enough evidence for the strict impossibility, and providing examples clearly does not work because its way easier to take down an example that does not work than to come up, in a couple of minutes, with one that does work.

Well, sure. It would be incredibly difficult for me to prove such a thing, though I think in this case it is possible (for the limited claim that I am making - specifically about a victory card that gives you coin tokens for overpaying and provides VP for coin tokens, and doesn't require or use any other card, and probably I should add some clause that the VP for the coin tokens should be significant - i.e. some card that gives 1 vp for every 10 tokens plus 2 flat and you get 1 when you buy it and it costs 5 might be fine, just as well as if you didn't have the points-for-VP phrase which... yadda yadda edge case. I'm really talking about the ones where for every X you overspend, you get Y coin tokens, and for every Z tokens you have, you get Q VP, with that being the whole card). Similarly, it is highly difficult to prove that elves or goblins or some-random-fantasy-creature-that-I-will-make-up-in-5-minutes doesn't exist.

It's not my intention to prove it, I don't care that much. All I am saying is, I don't think it can be done, and I'm pretty sure of that.

[soulnet]

It's not my intention to prove it, I don't care that much. All I am saying is, I don't think it can be done, and I'm pretty sure of that.

I was not asking for proof, just enough evidence. You think the current evidence is enough, I think it points in that direction but I'm not sure. Its fine, especially in a speculation subforum.

FWIW, I think this card is more likely than elves, goblins, god, or intelligent* life in another planet.

*I mean intelligence that humanity can prove is intelligence before extintion (i.e., the kind of intelligence that is compatible enough with ours to establish some form of communication that shows self-conscience and culture).

[WanderingWinder]

It's not my intention to prove it, I don't care that much. All I am saying is, I don't think it can be done, and I'm pretty sure of that.

I was not asking for proof, just enough evidence. You think the current evidence is enough, I think it points in that direction but I'm not sure. Its fine, especially in a speculation subforum.

I actually don't think I've *given* enough evidence, just that I *have* it.

You'll also want to edit the rest of the post somewhat to avoid the RSP-ness.

[Watno]

Another reason this probably won't be in is that there are no $5-tokens (Donald siad they'd be the same as for Trade Route and Pirate Ship). So there aren't enough of them to stockpile them, which you would want to frequently if there were such a card.

[WanderingWinder]

I suppose I should clarify. I don't think there will be a card where you overspend to get tokens which also scales VP with coin tokens. Now, coin-token-scaling VP would be possible, with something like
Card
Cost:5
Action-victory
Gain 2 coin tokens
Worth 2 VP for every 5 coin tokens you have at the end of the game.

Or something. (^^this probably isn't balanced). Or using multiple cards. But because a coin-token-scaling VP card should have some way to gain you coin tokens (so as to make it not obsolete almost all the time), it would either need to be dual-type or have a helper card.

But there are lots of possibilities for cards which use overspend and coin tokens and victory cards:

Chimney
Cost: 4+
Victory
Worth 2 VP.
___________
You may overspend for this. For every $1 you overspend, gain a coin token.

Something like that^^^ seems quite interesting.

[SirPeebles]

 I could see us all replacing the Duchy Dance with a Chimneysweep musical.  2 VP and save coins to buy your Province next hand

[WanderingWinder]

I could see us all replacing the Duchy Dance with a Chimneysweep musical.  2 VP and save coins to buy your Province next hand

Well, but by the time you're duchy dancing, if I buy duchy and you go Chimney, *can* you even buy the province - because I'll overtake. So it's supposed to just be this interesting decision, though with 0 testing, maybe I'd eventually find it's not so interesting.

[eHalcyon]

It might also be interesting for a card to grant coin tokens without overpaying.  Like this:

Tavern
$6 - Victory
Worth 2VP
--
When you gain this, take 2 coin tokens.

So this is essentially 2VP for $4, but you need at least $6 in play to buy it.  In most cases it is strictly inferior to WW's Chimney, in that you can choose to pay $6 for Chimney and get 2 coin tokens, but you can also pay more or less.  However, Tavern can be better with TfB (since you are getting a $6 card for $4) and it can also do some interesting things with cost reduction (if you have a bunch of Highways in play, buying Tavern could get you more coin tokens than you actually pay).

[Just a Rube]

It might also be interesting for a card to grant coin tokens without overpaying.  Like this:

Tavern
$6 - Victory
Worth 2VP
--
When you gain this, take 2 coin tokens.

So this is essentially 2VP for $4, but you need at least $6 in play to buy it.  In most cases it is strictly inferior to WW's Chimney, in that you can choose to pay $6 for Chimney and get 2 coin tokens, but you can also pay more or less.  However, Tavern can be better with TfB (since you are getting a $6 card for $4) and it can also do some interesting things with cost reduction (if you have a bunch of Highways in play, buying Tavern could get you more coin tokens than you actually pay).

Keep in mind that the spoiler suggested there was no 6 cost card in guilds. So that limits the strength of any victory card without overpaying.