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pst

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Victory card speculation
« on: June 03, 2013, 12:43:44 pm »
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The obvious Victory card for Guilds would be one worth more the more coin tokens you have. I wonder if there will be one. If there is it has to be multiclassed so it can be used to get some coin tokens so as to not be pointless in many games. That means probably Action/Victory, but could be Treasure/Victory or even Victory/Reaction.

I think that could lead to hard decisions on when to spend your precious coin tokens.
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Grujah

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 12:46:32 pm »
+1

The obvious Victory card for Guilds would be one worth more the more coin tokens you have.

Would be fun if it actually costs 7$.  ;D
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 12:47:47 pm »
+3

Would be even more fun if you could only buy it by spending coin tokens...
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Watno

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 12:50:21 pm »
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I don't think it will gove VP for coin tokens, that would counteract their purpose (spending them)
A Victory card that can't be gained with treasures in play sounds cool though
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 12:57:32 pm »
+3

I don't think it will gove VP for coin tokens, that would counteract their purpose (spending them)
A Victory card that can't be gained with treasures in play sounds cool though
Or just a card in general.
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pst

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2013, 01:00:11 pm »
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I don't think it will gove VP for coin tokens, that would counteract their purpose (spending them)

It would shift their purpose a bit. You probably wouldn't hoard tokens most of the game, but towards the end you'd better make sure you have something there. (Sort of how playing with Silk Roads doesn't mean you will buy Estates at every opportunity instead of improving your deck, but probably you will towards the end.)
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pst

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2013, 02:08:34 pm »
+2

The obvious Victory card for Guilds would be one worth more the more coin tokens you have. I wonder if there will be one. If there is it has to be multiclassed so it can be used to get some coin tokens so as to not be pointless in many games.

False! It can have some other way of getting you coin tokens. We know that there are cards that give you something when overpaying for it. I think that's it! A Victory card worth more the more coin tokens you have, that gets you coin tokens when overpaying for it!

That can lead to interesting situations in several ways. If you can amass lots of $$$ but there is no extra buy maybe you should ignore Provinces and pump these up to the sky? Sometimes you would ignore the Victory part. Just buy them to get the coin tokens and then trash them for benefit later.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2013, 02:34:29 pm »
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The obvious Victory card for Guilds would be one worth more the more coin tokens you have. I wonder if there will be one. If there is it has to be multiclassed so it can be used to get some coin tokens so as to not be pointless in many games.

False! It can have some other way of getting you coin tokens. We know that there are cards that give you something when overpaying for it. I think that's it! A Victory card worth more the more coin tokens you have, that gets you coin tokens when overpaying for it!

That can lead to interesting situations in several ways. If you can amass lots of $$$ but there is no extra buy maybe you should ignore Provinces and pump these up to the sky? Sometimes you would ignore the Victory part. Just buy them to get the coin tokens and then trash them for benefit later.
I like that idea.  Gives you a chance to catch up if the supply of Provinces/Duchies may be running low.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 02:35:14 pm »
+1

Guildhouse -- $4
Victory
Worth 6VP
--------
You can't buy this if you have any Treasures in play.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 02:52:42 pm »
+1

The problem with having a Victory card that gives out points based on Coin Tokens - and probably one of the reasons why Donald didn't make a Victory card directly related to the trash pile for Dark Ages- is most likely because then that card has to give out Coin Tokens itself.

I think the Victory card is going to be one that can be overbought, and then the player earning 1 coin token per extra $ spent.


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Marcory

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 02:54:30 pm »
+1

Workshop (or Ironworks/Armory/Smugglers)-Guildhouse would become the dominant strategy in any board that had it. Getting Gardens or Silk Road to 6 VP takes some doing; this would be way too easy.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2013, 03:01:24 pm »
+1

I don't think there will be a VP card tat relies on coin tokens. This makes them all VP tokens, or rather, VP tokens for every copy of the green card you have, which seems quite warping. Oh yeah, AND you can spend them at some point. Baker+that card even is just going to be bananas, and he's not going to let such a 2-card combo exist, particularly in the same expansion.

Gaining coin tokens for overspending IS something we might see, though I don't really see it being connected to a victory card - more likely you'd have a something like village that gives a coin token for every overspending you do on it, costing 4.

Robz888

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2013, 03:06:05 pm »
0

We might see a victory card that you can only buy with tokens, maybe.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2013, 03:09:02 pm »
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I don't think there will be a VP card tat relies on coin tokens. This makes them all VP tokens, or rather, VP tokens for every copy of the green card you have, which seems quite warping. Oh yeah, AND you can spend them at some point. Baker+that card even is just going to be bananas, and he's not going to let such a 2-card combo exist, particularly in the same expansion.

how is that warping? you have to choose between spending the coin tokens or holding them for points. you can't do both in the end game. i'm not seeing it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2013, 03:10:34 pm »
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We might see a victory card that you can only buy with tokens, maybe.

But that runs into the same problem -- you need a card that gives coin tokens or else you could never buy that Victory card.  And worse, you can't put the token gaining onto the Victory card itself.
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Titandrake

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2013, 03:11:53 pm »
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Maybe a coin token pinata?

During your buy phase, you may trash this, if you do get +coin tokens.

But then, why put it on a Victory card when you could put it on an Action?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2013, 03:13:40 pm »
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I don't think there will be a VP card tat relies on coin tokens. This makes them all VP tokens, or rather, VP tokens for every copy of the green card you have, which seems quite warping. Oh yeah, AND you can spend them at some point. Baker+that card even is just going to be bananas, and he's not going to let such a 2-card combo exist, particularly in the same expansion.

how is that warping? you have to choose between spending the coin tokens or holding them for points. you can't do both in the end game. i'm not seeing it.

Well, you just don't spend them, and Jimminy Christmas that's a lot of alt-VP.

sudgy

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2013, 03:16:44 pm »
+1

Maybe a coin token pinata?

During your buy phase, you may trash this, if you do get +coin tokens.

But then, why put it on a Victory card when you could put it on an Action?

Actually, that makes me think of an interesting TfB: "Trash a card from your hand.  +coin tokens equal to how much it costs."
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

eHalcyon

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2013, 03:18:06 pm »
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Maybe a coin token pinata?

During your buy phase, you may trash this, if you do get +coin tokens.

But then, why put it on a Victory card when you could put it on an Action?

Actually, that makes me think of an interesting TfB: "Trash a card from your hand.  +coin tokens equal to how much it costs."

That's just a Salvager variant, and you can get the same effect (plus more) from a card that converts unspent coins into coin tokens (in conjunction with Salvager).
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soulnet

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2013, 03:19:33 pm »
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I think I said the exact same thing (with less confidence, no obvious word or anything) about 30 minutes before this topic:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8294.msg249357#msg249357
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pst

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2013, 03:19:49 pm »
+1

I don't think there will be a VP card tat relies on coin tokens. This makes them all VP tokens, or rather, VP tokens for every copy of the green card you have, which seems quite warping.

Like Garden/Silk Road/Feodum is quite warping because all Xs become VP tokens? It wouldn't be one VP per coin token (obviously). What I wrote was "worth more the more coin tokens you have". I have no suggestion on the exact formula.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2013, 03:21:25 pm »
+1

I think Butcher is going to be the closest thing we see to a Salvager variant. Likewise, I think we're more likely to see a card that you can overbuy for coin tokens than one that converts unspent coins into tokens the turn it's played.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2013, 03:22:03 pm »
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I don't think there will be a VP card tat relies on coin tokens. This makes them all VP tokens, or rather, VP tokens for every copy of the green card you have, which seems quite warping.

Like Garden/Silk Road/Feodum is quite warping because all Xs become VP tokens? It wouldn't be one VP per coin token (obviously). What I wrote was "worth more the more coin tokens you have". I have no suggestion on the exact formula.

But this is more like the original Duke formulation - by the time it i strong enough that buying a few is something you might do, then just going for the whole stack is going to by enormous. Or if you make it where going for the whole stack isn't too strong, then nobody will ever buy just a few.

My point is that there is NO even-keeled formula.

pst

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2013, 03:26:24 pm »
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I think I said the exact same thing (with less confidence, no obvious word or anything) about 30 minutes before this topic:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8294.msg249357#msg249357

I hadn't seen that, but it doesn't surprise me as I indeed think the idea is obvious when thinking about what Victory card there could be in Guilds. I don't mean that it obviously will have such a card, only that it's an obvious idea that surely has been considered. And my guess is that it indeed would work, and that there probably is such a card, especially when I realized that it wouldn't have to be Victory/Action.
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shMerker

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2013, 03:30:22 pm »
+1

But this is more like the original Duke formulation - by the time it i strong enough that buying a few is something you might do, then just going for the whole stack is going to by enormous. Or if you make it where going for the whole stack isn't too strong, then nobody will ever buy just a few.

My point is that there is NO even-keeled formula.

Isn't this generally how variable-vp cards work though? Either ignore them entirely or go for the whole stack? I don't get what the problem is.
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pst

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2013, 03:34:03 pm »
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But this is more like the original Duke formulation - by the time it i strong enough that buying a few is something you might do, then just going for the whole stack is going to by enormous. Or if you make it where going for the whole stack isn't too strong, then nobody will ever buy just a few.

My point is that there is NO even-keeled formula.

You can't say that it's like the original Duke formulation when I explicitly don't give a formula at all.

Of course there is not one formula that means it will be somewhat good on all boards. On some boards it will be good. On some boards it will be bad. Like any other card. And I don't see the problem. On some boards going for the whole stack of for example Silk Roads is enormous. So what? And it's not true that nobody ever would buy just a few. If you happen to get a really big amount of $$$ a turn it could be worth to get this as a junk card just to get all the coin tokens to use.
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werothegreat

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2013, 03:36:11 pm »
0

Guildhouse -- $4
Victory
Worth 6VP
--------
You can't buy this if you have any Treasures in play.

This would be totally useless on boards that don't have virtual coin.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2013, 03:38:27 pm »
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Maybe a coin token pinata?

During your buy phase, you may trash this, if you do get +coin tokens.

But then, why put it on a Victory card when you could put it on an Action?

Actually, that makes me think of an interesting TfB: "Trash a card from your hand.  +coin tokens equal to how much it costs."

That's just a Salvager variant, and you can get the same effect (plus more) from a card that converts unspent coins into coin tokens (in conjunction with Salvager).

You could spend the coins later.  Other than the each player starting with a coin token, Baker is a lot different than Peddler.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

WanderingWinder

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2013, 03:44:22 pm »
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No, that isn't my point. I am saying that it will either be grossly powerful on ALL boards or grossly weak on at least virtually all boards. Some formulae will lead to the overpowered scenario, others will lead to the underpowered scenario.

And other victory cards aren't like that at all, generally. Picking up a few gardens or silk roads or fairgrounds are VERY often viable. Sometimes none, sometimes as many as you can very quickly, sometimes a few. This is balanced. Half the time I want this immensely and half I want it not at all is not at all balanced - it's EXTREMELY imbalanced, even if 'on average' it's of average strength.


What I mean by saying that it's like the original duke - the original duke was worth 1 VP for every one of them you had. Getting one is terrible, it's just an overpriced estate. Getting 8, though, is bonkers - suddenly they're worth a good deal more than provinces, and cheaper. So the game just degenerates into a race for them, and whoever wins the split has a HUGE advantage. And if the split is even, then you just have a very boring game where players have 4 extra junk cards rolling around their decks when playing a more-or-less otherwise normal game with an empty pile and some wasted time and turns. And the problem is, it's like that pretty much ALWAYS.

Anyway, if you think they could be balanced, I defy you to give me any formulation which you think is. I'll even give you a whole bunch of attempts at it, because I'm pretty sure it can't be done with any kind of reasonable design.

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2013, 03:53:04 pm »
0

WW, I'm going to take you up on this not because I think there will actually be a Guilds Victory card that counts coin tokens, but because I want to know what you think of this attempt at a ProtoDuke-type card.

CardA
Types: Victory
Cost: $4
This is worth 2VP plus 1VP per 2 CardBs in your deck (rounded down).

When you gain this, gain a CardB.

CardB
Types: None
Cost: $0
(This is not in the Supply.)
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2013, 03:57:52 pm »
0

WW is absolutely right on this one.  Just never spend them.  When you don't buy a single Province, the game is going to last for awhile, allowing your cards to gain you a plethora or tokens.  Meanwhile you just use your other cards to work our way up to whatever the price point is.  This type of VP card can not be balanced.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2013, 04:07:01 pm »
0

WW, I'm going to take you up on this not because I think there will actually be a Guilds Victory card that counts coin tokens, but because I want to know what you think of this attempt at a ProtoDuke-type card.

CardA
Types: Victory
Cost: $4
This is worth 2VP plus 1VP per 2 CardBs in your deck (rounded down).

When you gain this, gain a CardB.

CardB
Types: None
Cost: $0
(This is not in the Supply.)
Oh, I meant with counting the coin tokens you have at the end of game, in any way, for VP, I didn't think it could be balanced. Something like this, which relies on other cards (a la the actual Duke), certainly can be reasonably balanced.

I will comment on this particular one though. First thought is that it's interesting. 1 is like 2 estates, but only takes 1 buy and you can trash the cardB, and well that's okay. It's never totally useless because you can just buy one at the very end if you happen to get exactly $4, similar to tunnel, though this would be much worse than tunnel for anything similar to that. So generally pretty bad utility, I think, unless a this-focused strategy is good. Is it? Well, if you get 8, they're as much as provinces. How easy is it to get 8 of these, given that you'll have 8 Bs as well? Probably pretty hard - that is a LOT of junk. But okay, it helps engines quite a bit because you can nab 8 of these with much less of a mega-turn than it would take to get, say, 8 provinces. If you don't have to shuffle them... And then rushes. Can you get to 8 of these before 8 provinces with an Ironworks-type card? Probably, yes, usually but on the other hand, sniping just one of these knocks each one down a point and limits the guy to 7*5=35 points, while you have an extra 2. So you need... 5 provinces and a duchy with this to even out? Seems pretty doable, since you can snipe quite late, it will actually be pretty hard to 3-pile, and the guy is going to have SO MUCH junk.

Okay, for thorough-ness, we look at getting middling numbers of these. 2 makes them worth duchies, but only one cheaper isn't so big for the greening phase, and you have twice as much junk. Again, if you get thrown to it, okay, but not good. 4 of them makes them worth 4 each. Fairgrounds are worth that reasonably often, but this is just so much clog.

Conclusion: maybe this is possible, but it's pretty weak.

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2013, 04:07:49 pm »
0

WW is absolutely right on this one.  Just never spend them.  When you don't buy a single Province, the game is going to last for awhile, allowing your cards to gain you a plethora or tokens.  Meanwhile you just use your other cards to work our way up to whatever the price point is.  This type of VP card can not be balanced.

that strikes me as fantastically short sighted shark_bait. we don't know a single other card that will interact with these coin tokens.  one noble brigand variant is all it would take. and it is not as if the other player is just sitting there ignoring you, they have full access to the coins, cards to generate the coins, and VP cards as well. it can be tricky to balance, but i see no reason why it can't be done, especially given the limited framework suggested in the OP.
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pst

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2013, 04:11:34 pm »
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Quote
Anyway, if you think they could be balanced, I defy you to give me any formulation which you think is.

I really don't see the need to convince you that there are monotonic functions that aren't essentially 0 or go to infinity really quick.

I want to repeat again that all I've said is that it should be worth more with more coin tokens.
One idea is to have a few steps. It could even be just two steps. Worth X VP at the end of the game, or Y if you have at least Z coin tokens. But that would be disappointing, I think, because it's more fun with something that can be worth more than Provs under extreme conditions. Anyway it would need playtesting, and I won't do that, so no formula from me. Besides, there might already be such a card that is playtested a lot.
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jbrecken

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2013, 04:12:20 pm »
0

Guildhouse -- $4
Victory
Worth 6VP
--------
You can't buy this if you have any Treasures in play.

I wonder if it might be more playable if you turned it inside out:

Guildhall - $6
Victory
Worth 4VP
---------
You can't buy this if you have any coin tokens in your possession or if you have actions in play that grant +coins.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2013, 04:20:06 pm »
0

WW, I'm going to take you up on this not because I think there will actually be a Guilds Victory card that counts coin tokens, but because I want to know what you think of this attempt at a ProtoDuke-type card.

CardA
Types: Victory
Cost: $4
This is worth 2VP plus 1VP per 2 CardBs in your deck (rounded down).

When you gain this, gain a CardB.

CardB
Types: None
Cost: $0
(This is not in the Supply.)
Oh, I meant with counting the coin tokens you have at the end of game, in any way, for VP, I didn't think it could be balanced. Something like this, which relies on other cards (a la the actual Duke), certainly can be reasonably balanced.

I will comment on this particular one though. First thought is that it's interesting. 1 is like 2 estates, but only takes 1 buy and you can trash the cardB, and well that's okay. It's never totally useless because you can just buy one at the very end if you happen to get exactly $4, similar to tunnel, though this would be much worse than tunnel for anything similar to that. So generally pretty bad utility, I think, unless a this-focused strategy is good. Is it? Well, if you get 8, they're as much as provinces. How easy is it to get 8 of these, given that you'll have 8 Bs as well? Probably pretty hard - that is a LOT of junk. But okay, it helps engines quite a bit because you can nab 8 of these with much less of a mega-turn than it would take to get, say, 8 provinces. If you don't have to shuffle them... And then rushes. Can you get to 8 of these before 8 provinces with an Ironworks-type card? Probably, yes, usually but on the other hand, sniping just one of these knocks each one down a point and limits the guy to 7*5=35 points, while you have an extra 2. So you need... 5 provinces and a duchy with this to even out? Seems pretty doable, since you can snipe quite late, it will actually be pretty hard to 3-pile, and the guy is going to have SO MUCH junk.

Okay, for thorough-ness, we look at getting middling numbers of these. 2 makes them worth duchies, but only one cheaper isn't so big for the greening phase, and you have twice as much junk. Again, if you get thrown to it, okay, but not good. 4 of them makes them worth 4 each. Fairgrounds are worth that reasonably often, but this is just so much clog.

Conclusion: maybe this is possible, but it's pretty weak.

Nice, thanks for the analysis. Seems spot-on to me. Now to figure out a better formula…

EDIT: I'm trying to remember why it's not just 1VP per CardB in your deck. There must have been some reason I chose not to do that… Probably I'd have to price that at $5 or $6.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 04:25:23 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2013, 04:24:12 pm »
0

WW is absolutely right on this one.  Just never spend them.  When you don't buy a single Province, the game is going to last for awhile, allowing your cards to gain you a plethora or tokens.  Meanwhile you just use your other cards to work our way up to whatever the price point is.  This type of VP card can not be balanced.

that strikes me as fantastically short sighted shark_bait. we don't know a single other card that will interact with these coin tokens.  one noble brigand variant is all it would take.
The problem is, such a card would need to be in EVERY game with the hypothetical VP card in order for this balancing effect to work, and well, if there is some rule that makes that the case, it would be possible, sure. My point is that such a lone card can't work out.
Quote
and it is not as if the other player is just sitting there ignoring you, they have full access to the coins, cards to generate the coins, and VP cards as well. it can be tricky to balance, but i see no reason why it can't be done, especially given the limited framework suggested in the OP.
I read this - and please tell me if I am reading it wrongly - as a version of the 'the other player has access to card X just as much as you do, ergo it isn't broken' methodology. However, in a game like Dominion, that logic would make virtually everything not broken - a card that read "+4 cards, +3 actions, +$3" and cost 1 wouldn't be broken, because the other guy can get it just like you. But every game is going to obviously just see you both rush to said card. For the card to be good, there needs to be situations where it's not the bee's knees, and at least some situations where it's reasonably useful. The point that I am making is that I don't think a single card which uses coin tokens to count VP can be so balanced.

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2013, 04:26:29 pm »
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WW is absolutely right on this one.  Just never spend them.  When you don't buy a single Province, the game is going to last for awhile, allowing your cards to gain you a plethora or tokens.  Meanwhile you just use your other cards to work our way up to whatever the price point is.  This type of VP card can not be balanced.

that strikes me as fantastically short sighted shark_bait. we don't know a single other card that will interact with these coin tokens.  one noble brigand variant is all it would take. and it is not as if the other player is just sitting there ignoring you, they have full access to the coins, cards to generate the coins, and VP cards as well. it can be tricky to balance, but i see no reason why it can't be done, especially given the limited framework suggested in the OP.

First off, a VP card like this would must have a way to gain tokens otherwise it would be kingdom dependent.  Now this could be in the form of dual type Action/Victory, on Gain/Buy, or when in play, add pile X to the supply.  Pile X could either be some random kingdom pile akin to the Young Witch bane or it could be a specific card wherein purchasing/gaining gains a token.  Alternatively, card X could gain tokens itself when played. 

I just see this card as exceptionally challenging to balance as the variance in terms of viability is huge.  There is nothing stopping you from amassing huge amounts of coin.

Now let's get to this Noble Brigand for token idea.  To be relevant in games in itself, it must provide a mechanism for gaining tokens itself.  Otherwise it could be a dead card.  Even if it exists, it wouldn't necessarily add balance unless it was card X mentioned above.  But then you have another problem wherein there is a race to get as many of card X so that you can dominate the token supply and thus the game.

Perhaps this VP could be worth X VP per Y tokens, but that would still be tough to balance.

I feel like I'm rambling now, to sum up.  With what we've seen with Baker, a VP card that deals with cumulative tokens is extremely difficult to be balanced as the number of tokens that could be gained in a given game could be so variable.

@greatexpectations, thanks for calling me out, made me think more about the concept than I did before.  I still see the likelihood of said card as slim, but Donald has done some crazy stuff already and if anyone could balance a VP card like that it would be him.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 04:27:49 pm by shark_bait »
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2013, 04:32:56 pm »
0

Nice, thanks for the analysis. Seems spot-on to me. Now to figure out a better formula…

EDIT: I'm trying to remember why it's not just 1VP per CardB in your deck. There must have been some reason I chose not to do that… Probably I'd have to price that at $5 or $6.
So I was thinking about this. 2 and 1-for-1 costing 6 has the problem that you are so rarely going to want it without committing to it at least a fair bit, because you have duchy for 1 cheaper, and this isn't better until you get 2, at which point you're starting to get a fair bit of clog. It has a sorta similar problem at $5. Well, also at $5, if you get 5 of them they're worth more than provinces, and yeah that's a lot of clog, that that's rather a lot of points, too. I think you either want it costing 3-4 giving you less than 3 for the first, or 6 and giving you more than 3 for the first. So something like 6-cost, worth 4 plus 1 for every 2 B might work (they grow to province size reasonably fast, but it's hard to mass them), maybe even 3 plus 1 for every B. Or 1 plus one for every B at 4, but this might be too good.

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2013, 04:36:22 pm »
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Quote
I really don't see the need to convince you that there are monotonic functions that aren't essentially 0 or go to infinity really quick.
There are such monotonic functions, but most of them aren't permitted on Dominion cards. All the official cards do is add, subtract or divide-rounding-down - DXV said multiplication wouldn't be totally out of the question - but you aren't supposed to need a calculator.

Here's the problem: Dominion cards have to be self-contained; e.g. if a card gains from the trash, it has to put things there that you'd want to gain. If a VP card cares about coin tokens, it has to give you some way of getting coin tokens; either it's Action/Victory, or gives you some when you buy it (or when you overpay for it).

That has mathematical implications. If the card itself produces the thing it counts, you have a quadratic function. Sure, some cards do exhibit quadratic VP; Goons is the obvious one, since each Goons in play gives you both an extra buy and an extra point per buy, but it's really hard to play a lot of Goons at once; they're terminal and they don't draw more Goons. Silk Road is also quadratic, but the linear component of them is more important because having all 8 still only makes them worth 2 each. Proto-Dukes, on the other hand, gave you 1, 4, 9, 16, ... VPs depending on how many you had, which is clearly imbalanced.

You might suggest giving them a linear term, too; Worth 4VP each plus 1VP per N unused coin tokens, and get a coin token when you buy it. But if N is too big, that's not too exciting if they're the only way to get coin tokens - you just get a bonus if you buy N of them. But if N is small, it's easy to pick up N of them, and Baker is now cantrip-Monument, which is broken.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 04:39:05 pm by Warfreak2 »
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2013, 05:12:46 pm »
0

So I was thinking about this. 2 and 1-for-1 costing 6 has the problem that you are so rarely going to want it without committing to it at least a fair bit, because you have duchy for 1 cheaper, and this isn't better until you get 2, at which point you're starting to get a fair bit of clog. It has a sorta similar problem at $5. Well, also at $5, if you get 5 of them they're worth more than provinces, and yeah that's a lot of clog, that that's rather a lot of points, too. I think you either want it costing 3-4 giving you less than 3 for the first, or 6 and giving you more than 3 for the first. So something like 6-cost, worth 4 plus 1 for every 2 B might work (they grow to province size reasonably fast, but it's hard to mass them), maybe even 3 plus 1 for every B. Or 1 plus one for every B at 4, but this might be too good.

I don't think being straight up comparable to Duchy is that important. Imagine a card that gives 4 VP, costs  $4 and gains you a Curse. It will be worse than Duchy in a number of situations because of the extra junk, but it will also be better if you are going to trash the Curse, or when Curses run out, etc. Like buying a Garden for $5 when they are currently worth 2 each, it depends on how much the game is going to go on.

You might suggest giving them a linear term, too; Worth 4VP each plus 1VP per N unused coin tokens, and get a coin token when you buy it. But if N is too big, that's not too exciting if they're the only way to get coin tokens - you just get a bonus if you buy N of them. But if N is small, it's easy to pick up N of them, and Baker is now cantrip-Monument, which is broken.

Actually, cantrip Monument giving something like 1/4 VP does not seem broken to me (i.e., N=4 in your notation). I agree that this is hard and as I posted in the other thread, my money is on "this won't appear in Guilds", but a lot of posts seem to be jumping to extreme conclusions of "this is impossible" less than 6 hours after the variant was proposed (and it has a LOT of possible tweaks).

EDIT: Especially because getting lots of Bakers, if you are NOT using the coin they give you, can be pretty difficult because is outside reach for most gainers (yes, comboing with cost reduction will do it, but lots of combos are powerful, I don't see a problem with that) and getting to $5 while adding the green card requires slogging your deck with Coppers, as Duchy/Duke taught us, or doing something complicated, which again, is a valid way of winning a game.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 05:16:25 pm by soulnet »
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2013, 05:24:47 pm »
0

I don't know if it would be on a Victory card, but I'd like to see a "When you buy this, get X coin tokens"

It's probably not on a Victory card, because it would be too similar to Farmland to be interesting. Or actually, maybe it could be, if it was used such that gaining the Victory was a drawback that balanced out giving a ton of coin tokens.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2013, 05:49:15 pm »
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Actually, cantrip Monument giving something like 1/4 VP does not seem broken to me
It's only 1/4 VP if you buy just one of the VP cards; as I said, get N of them, and it's a cantrip Monument. I'd say 4 is "large N" where you're just getting a bonus when you buy your fourth one, and the rest are worth an extra point too, not too exciting - though it makes winning the split super good, which is problematic in itself. But if you only need three junk cards to have cantrip Monuments, that is broken.

You can spend the coin tokens while there are still Bakers left to buy; I'm not talking about some combo with Highway/Ironworks, just strong trashing should be enough to reliably play all your Bakers every turn. The Golden Deck produces 5VP per turn, and that is a strong strategy, but it does guarantee the game will end. This would end in a deadlock where both players just keep playing Baker over and over, never buying anything, because 8 coin tokens for a Province is a net of -2VP and clogs your deck.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 05:58:36 pm by Warfreak2 »
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2013, 06:07:38 pm »
+2

I think it's certainly possible to have a VP card that counts the coin tokens.  How many times did we say there could never be a VP card that counts treasure, then suddenly, Fedoum!  I really do think the cost increasing mechanism would work here.  Consider:

Cheese Destroyers' Guild
Victory -- $3

Worth 1 VP for every 2 coin tokens you possess.
----
When you buy this card, you may pay any amount for it.  For every $3 you pay greater than $3, gain a coin token.

The numbers could be tweaked, but it's a simple enough concept.  If you pay $6 for it, it's worth less than 1 VP... OTOH, if you piledrive them all at $9, they're each worth 8, but only if you can piledrive them.  Obviously another token gainer makes this easier to boost, but turning Baker into a cantrip 1 VP still requires three copies of this.  Meanwhile, you opponent can ignore it, and use his/her tokens to smooth out their Province buys, while your deck turns green faster.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2013, 06:10:32 pm »
0

but turning Baker into a cantrip 1 VP still requires three two copies of this.
Not that three junk cards (or four including your trasher) in a deck of only cantrip monuments is any big deal at all.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2013, 06:17:04 pm »
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Actually, cantrip Monument giving something like 1/4 VP does not seem broken to me
It's only 1/4 VP if you buy just one of the VP cards; as I said, get N of them, and it's a cantrip Monument. I'd say 4 is "large N" where you're just getting a bonus when you buy your fourth one, and the rest are worth an extra point too, not too exciting - though it makes winning the split super good, which is problematic in itself. But if you only need three junk cards to have cantrip Monuments, that is broken.

Sorry about the confusion with the 1/4. And maybe it should be two or three steps, like Citie's text. Worth 2VP or 4VP if you have at least 10 coin tokens or something (numbers may vary on the actual product).

I don't think its broken to sometimes have a cantrip generating VP. The green cards you need will clog your deck. Trashing your deck to Bakers + 4 green cards seems difficult enough, maybe even harder than trashing to KC+KC+Monument+Monument+Monument, and it makes less VP per turn that this second option (assuming you have 6 or 7 Bakers at most, which is a reasonable assumption).

And still, its a 2 card combo, it will not be there everytime, and if you require strong trashing, there will possibly be some other engine possibilities that may be faster, or at least a good complement that give some player the edge to win the game. You are trying to get a lot of green and take advantage of cantrips, all at the same time, that seems hard. I don't know, I think its powerful, but not broken enough for a 2-card combo.

Also, there are always harsh penalties like making you gain Curses, giving the oponent coins (new one!), etc. Gaining you junk (like Estates) may make the game end too fast for your engine to compete with someone with a couple of Provinces, or rushing Duchies.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2013, 06:26:30 pm »
0

I think it's certainly possible to have a VP card that counts the coin tokens.  How many times did we say there could never be a VP card that counts treasure, then suddenly, Fedoum!
Man, I don't remember people saying that. I'm pretty sure I didn't. I thought it would be tricky, but doable.
Quote
I really do think the cost increasing mechanism would work here.  Consider:

Cheese Destroyers' Guild
Victory -- $3

Worth 1 VP for every 2 coin tokens you possess.
----
When you buy this card, you may pay any amount for it.  For every $3 you pay greater than $3, gain a coin token.

The numbers could be tweaked, but it's a simple enough concept.  If you pay $6 for it, it's worth less than 1 VP... OTOH, if you piledrive them all at $9, they're each worth 8, but only if you can piledrive them.  Obviously another token gainer makes this easier to boost, but turning Baker into a cantrip 1 VP still requires three copies of this.  Meanwhile, you opponent can ignore it, and use his/her tokens to smooth out their Province buys, while your deck turns green faster.
Aha! This is the exact card that I thought we were talking about all along (well, the numbers aren't important), and *precisely* the one I am sure you can't do. Yours, let's look at. You can't really use the coin tokens. I mean, okay, you can, but you are wasting $3 and a dead card in your deck to invest them for later at a 1/3 rate, and this is just a really really insanely bad deal.
Furthermore, there's no way you're buying one or two of these for the VP. $9 estate is very bad. Indeed, it's really hard to make $9, and if you spend $6 on them, you get 1 token. If you piledrive them for $6, they're worth 4 each. Now 4 for $6 isn't unreasonable, but needing to piledrive them makes this very unappetizing. Okay, let's say you can get 2 of them for $9. Now they're worth 5. Still a bad deal. If you get 4 of them for $9 and 4 of them for 6, they're provinces. Well, that's probably very roughly the same difficulty as piledriving provinces. I would guess it's a little harder actually, but well, it would be reasonable. But again, you have to piledrive them. And you have to plan on this from the start and commit to it. And most importantly, near the end, your opponent just drops $3 a couple times, just to deny you, and your strategy really crumbles. And again, you don't want to touch those tokens, because they are your points, they are far far to precious to use. So this card is just too weak, all around.

Of course, with another card that makes coin tokens, it might be broken still, or maybe just reasonably strong, but well, let's assume that that could work out - these games just aren't going to come up much.

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2013, 06:42:11 pm »
+1

Given that another theme is cards you can get more out of by paying more for them, wouldn't that be a more fruitful area for speculation? Maybe something along the lines of
"Blah $X
Y VP
When you buy this, you may spend an additional $Z to gain another copy [or a duchy or whatever]
[If it gains copies of itself, just have a Rats-like double-sized pile]"

I haven't really looked at the variant card forums, so I'm sure I'm missing some problem, but that was what came to mind.

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2013, 06:46:28 pm »
0

I don't think its broken to sometimes have a cantrip generating VP. The green cards you need will clog your deck. Trashing your deck to Bakers + 4 green cards seems difficult enough, maybe even harder than trashing to KC+KC+Monument+Monument+Monument, and it makes less VP per turn that this second option (assuming you have 6 or 7 Bakers at most, which is a reasonable assumption).

And still, its a 2 card combo, it will not be there everytime, and if you require strong trashing, there will possibly be some other engine possibilities that may be faster, or at least a good complement that give some player the edge to win the game. You are trying to get a lot of green and take advantage of cantrips, all at the same time, that seems hard. I don't know, I think its powerful, but not broken enough for a 2-card combo.
There are three official cards that give VP chips: Bishop, Goons and Monument. Bishop and Goons can't continue indefinitely as they need more cards to trash or buy (Fortress aside). OK, KC-KC-Monument-Monument-Monument - or more realistically, KC-KC-Monument-Monument-Chapel, because those Chapels don't trash themselves - is a thing, but it's hard to set up, and those Colonies are very tempting when you have $18 to spend and they more than double the VP you make in a turn. That's an important difference - with coin tokens worth 1VP each, it hurts your score to spend them on anything at all.

You don't necessarily require strong trashing; light trashing, or a draw engine, or some Schemes, no problem. Or maybe you don't get to play all of them every turn, but your deck never changes and you can maintain a steady average. 2-card game-ruining combos, especially from the same expansion, really are the sort of thing that playtesting is for fixing. Besides, there are going to be plenty more cards that give you coin tokens, and chances are this victory card would be broken with most of them.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2013, 06:50:40 pm »
0

There are three official cards that give VP chips: Bishop, Goons and Monument. Bishop and Goons can't continue indefinitely as they need more cards to trash or buy (Fortress aside).
Just pointing out that Goons can potentially go indefinitely with ambassador (though admittedly this takes a lot of work, so it's probably just fine) and, more importantly, bishop can always continue indefinitely, as you still get a point just for playing it, even if you trash nothing. Sure, it's not going to be a problem... almost ever, but it can happen.

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2013, 07:06:49 pm »
+3

There are three official cards that give VP chips: Bishop, Goons and Monument. Bishop and Goons can't continue indefinitely as they need more cards to trash or buy (Fortress aside).
Just pointing out that Goons can potentially go indefinitely with ambassador (though admittedly this takes a lot of work, so it's probably just fine) and, more importantly, bishop can always continue indefinitely, as you still get a point just for playing it, even if you trash nothing. Sure, it's not going to be a problem... almost ever, but it can happen.

I think Trader is a better card for infinite Goons. :)
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2013, 07:09:38 pm »
0

I thought about Ambassador, but it gives your opponent a copy, so they need to Ambassador it back two at a time too. I can't imagine a motivation for you and your opponent to cooperate in such a way. I guess if they always have a Moat or a Lighthouse... but that's getting silly.

Trader, I didn't think about. That's a nice one, I must say! But like Monument, it produces money, and those Colonies aren't actually reducing your score when you buy them.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2013, 08:25:33 pm »
0

I like Kirian's idea, and WW's analysis shows that absent other coin-giving cards it's probably balanceable, if not already balanced. I had an alternative idea:

Worth 1 VP for every 3 coin tokens you have.
---
When you gain this, gain 1 coin token.
---
When you trash this, gain 2 coin tokens.

A little bit too close to Feodum, maybe?
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2013, 08:28:40 pm »
+1

I suspect we won't have any "when you trash this" cards. That was Dark Ages' thing, and Guilds was originally slated for before Dark Ages.
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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2013, 08:55:14 pm »
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I like Kirian's idea, and WW's analysis shows that absent other coin-giving cards it's probably balanceable, if not already balanced. I had an alternative idea:
I don't think my analysis shows that at all!

Quote
Worth 1 VP for every 3 coin tokens you have.
---
When you gain this, gain 1 coin token.
---
When you trash this, gain 2 coin tokens.

A little bit too close to Feodum, maybe?
What does this cost? The problem is, this is no good in games without other token-producing cards. I mean, it could cost 1, really, and I don't think I'd buy it too often, especially without trashing. I mean, it's just impossible to get it to be worth all that much. I suppose if you can gain them all and trash 2 and have 6 which are worth 4 each or something, but that seems like a lot of work.

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2013, 09:31:36 pm »
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I see the point on the card being difficult, and I am also aware of why cards giving VP chips or possibly any VP that do not harm your deck, need to be carefully. But I also imagine people thinking a non-terminal or cantrip Curser is too powerful before seeing Familiar, or that costs other than coins are absurd (hey, some people still say this). I myself thought about cards picking things from the trash, but ended up thinking there was probably a good reason for that not to exist. Same with costs $1 and $7. Same with VP chips (I like those, but I like the careful balance between VP and useful cards you need to do in games without them, because its an interesting and novel thing about Dominion).

Anyway, I'm not defending any particular implementation, and I can agree about all comments made here against them. I just still don't see that there is enough evidence for the strict impossibility, and providing examples clearly does not work because its way easier to take down an example that does not work than to come up, in a couple of minutes, with one that does work.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2013, 09:42:55 pm »
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I see the point on the card being difficult, and I am also aware of why cards giving VP chips or possibly any VP that do not harm your deck, need to be carefully. But I also imagine people thinking a non-terminal or cantrip Curser is too powerful before seeing Familiar, or that costs other than coins are absurd (hey, some people still say this). I myself thought about cards picking things from the trash, but ended up thinking there was probably a good reason for that not to exist. Same with costs $1 and $7. Same with VP chips (I like those, but I like the careful balance between VP and useful cards you need to do in games without them, because its an interesting and novel thing about Dominion).

Anyway, I'm not defending any particular implementation, and I can agree about all comments made here against them. I just still don't see that there is enough evidence for the strict impossibility, and providing examples clearly does not work because its way easier to take down an example that does not work than to come up, in a couple of minutes, with one that does work.

Well, sure. It would be incredibly difficult for me to prove such a thing, though I think in this case it is possible (for the limited claim that I am making - specifically about a victory card that gives you coin tokens for overpaying and provides VP for coin tokens, and doesn't require or use any other card, and probably I should add some clause that the VP for the coin tokens should be significant - i.e. some card that gives 1 vp for every 10 tokens plus 2 flat and you get 1 when you buy it and it costs 5 might be fine, just as well as if you didn't have the points-for-VP phrase which... yadda yadda edge case. I'm really talking about the ones where for every X you overspend, you get Y coin tokens, and for every Z tokens you have, you get Q VP, with that being the whole card). Similarly, it is highly difficult to prove that elves or goblins or some-random-fantasy-creature-that-I-will-make-up-in-5-minutes doesn't exist.

It's not my intention to prove it, I don't care that much. All I am saying is, I don't think it can be done, and I'm pretty sure of that.

soulnet

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2013, 09:49:52 pm »
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It's not my intention to prove it, I don't care that much. All I am saying is, I don't think it can be done, and I'm pretty sure of that.

I was not asking for proof, just enough evidence. You think the current evidence is enough, I think it points in that direction but I'm not sure. Its fine, especially in a speculation subforum.

FWIW, I think this card is more likely than elves, goblins, god, or intelligent* life in another planet.

*I mean intelligence that humanity can prove is intelligence before extintion (i.e., the kind of intelligence that is compatible enough with ours to establish some form of communication that shows self-conscience and culture).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2013, 10:21:06 pm »
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It's not my intention to prove it, I don't care that much. All I am saying is, I don't think it can be done, and I'm pretty sure of that.

I was not asking for proof, just enough evidence. You think the current evidence is enough, I think it points in that direction but I'm not sure. Its fine, especially in a speculation subforum.
I actually don't think I've *given* enough evidence, just that I *have* it.

You'll also want to edit the rest of the post somewhat to avoid the RSP-ness.

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2013, 01:12:53 pm »
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Another reason this probably won't be in is that there are no $5-tokens (Donald siad they'd be the same as for Trade Route and Pirate Ship). So there aren't enough of them to stockpile them, which you would want to frequently if there were such a card.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2013, 03:53:01 pm »
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I suppose I should clarify. I don't think there will be a card where you overspend to get tokens which also scales VP with coin tokens. Now, coin-token-scaling VP would be possible, with something like
Card
Cost:5
Action-victory
Gain 2 coin tokens
Worth 2 VP for every 5 coin tokens you have at the end of the game.

Or something. (^^this probably isn't balanced). Or using multiple cards. But because a coin-token-scaling VP card should have some way to gain you coin tokens (so as to make it not obsolete almost all the time), it would either need to be dual-type or have a helper card.

But there are lots of possibilities for cards which use overspend and coin tokens and victory cards:

Chimney
Cost: 4+
Victory
Worth 2 VP.
___________
You may overspend for this. For every $1 you overspend, gain a coin token.

Something like that^^^ seems quite interesting.

SirPeebles

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2013, 09:39:07 pm »
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 I could see us all replacing the Duchy Dance with a Chimneysweep musical.  2 VP and save coins to buy your Province next hand :D
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2013, 10:08:20 pm »
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I could see us all replacing the Duchy Dance with a Chimneysweep musical.  2 VP and save coins to buy your Province next hand :D
Well, but by the time you're duchy dancing, if I buy duchy and you go Chimney, *can* you even buy the province - because I'll overtake. So it's supposed to just be this interesting decision, though with 0 testing, maybe I'd eventually find it's not so interesting.

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2013, 10:20:46 pm »
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It might also be interesting for a card to grant coin tokens without overpaying.  Like this:

Tavern
$6 - Victory
Worth 2VP
--
When you gain this, take 2 coin tokens.

So this is essentially 2VP for $4, but you need at least $6 in play to buy it.  In most cases it is strictly inferior to WW's Chimney, in that you can choose to pay $6 for Chimney and get 2 coin tokens, but you can also pay more or less.  However, Tavern can be better with TfB (since you are getting a $6 card for $4) and it can also do some interesting things with cost reduction (if you have a bunch of Highways in play, buying Tavern could get you more coin tokens than you actually pay).
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Just a Rube

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Re: Victory card speculation
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2013, 01:12:45 am »
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It might also be interesting for a card to grant coin tokens without overpaying.  Like this:

Tavern
$6 - Victory
Worth 2VP
--
When you gain this, take 2 coin tokens.

So this is essentially 2VP for $4, but you need at least $6 in play to buy it.  In most cases it is strictly inferior to WW's Chimney, in that you can choose to pay $6 for Chimney and get 2 coin tokens, but you can also pay more or less.  However, Tavern can be better with TfB (since you are getting a $6 card for $4) and it can also do some interesting things with cost reduction (if you have a bunch of Highways in play, buying Tavern could get you more coin tokens than you actually pay).
Keep in mind that the spoiler suggested there was no 6 cost card in guilds. So that limits the strength of any victory card without overpaying.
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