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Author Topic: Preview #1: Baker  (Read 95192 times)

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clb

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #150 on: June 03, 2013, 06:26:00 pm »
0

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you can spend your opponent's tokens.
just spend all your tokens at the turn you opponent buys possesion and buy a province or something and you are good to go.

Yeah but that still means you start losing the utility of them after the possessing starts. The whole point of having them in the first place is to be able to save them. But with a Possession in your opponent's deck saving them is a liability. It's not as bad as having an Ambassador or a Masquerade but it's still going to hurt.

My initial impression is that you are going to want to spend the coins quickly - they are like short-term loans or something. The longer you hold on to them, the less utility you are getting from the Baker. If you can play Baker and then quickly invest the coin into a better card and start cycling the card, then Baker helped you very much over the rest of the game. If you sit and accumulate coins, then you aren't improving you deck as rapidly. If played in that manner, then Possession is an annoyance and can be frustrating, but you wouldn't necessarily rush to trash your Baker just because your opponent bought Possession.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #151 on: June 03, 2013, 06:41:42 pm »
+13

Okay, there are basically three (mechanical) things here, and I want to touch on them all. 1)Coin tokens, generally; B)The set-up clause; 3-and/or-C - oh let's just call it III) the card itself.


Coin tokens: Seems to me these are best in... engines. I see a lot of engine hate out there, but in principle, what kind of deck underspends more often than others - typically engines. Engines also tend to have the +buy that can take best advantage of the tokens in the endgame. Moreover, they will reasonably often be able to cobble up extra engine pieces essentially out of nothing, with the buy. On the other hand, they're actually *great* for slogs, where you really spend exactly basically all the time, and smooth 4s and 5s are great. Of course, that's hypothetical, and not knowing how exactly you'll be able to get them, it might be very hard to get slog card and coin-giving card.

I think spoils are a reasonable comparison in a number of ways. Of course, I actually think these things might be better for engines than spoils (well, okay, I will usually take a spoils over a coin token, granted, as it's worth so much more. But I expect that, for engines at least, I'd rather have 2 coin tokens than a spoils) because they don't take up space in your deck. That is MASSIVE for engines. But okay, I also think spoils are probably misplayed a good bit, and these will be, too. You really have to time spending these things right. The impulse is basically always going to be to spend them right away, nownownow. And yeah, usually, that's probably going to be right. But I expect tere will be a lot of exceptions (and this is why I am throwing the spoils in), even when spending it WOULD let you buy something better for your deck. Sure, often (say you're playing BM) you'd buy province on $8 on turn 5, but you almost certainly shouldn't spend 2 coin tokens to do this when you could buy gold and keep them, and actually I'm quite sure you shouldn't even spend 1. Well, these may be obvious examples, but I'm sure there are lots more that are, generally, much more subtle.

But okay, what can we expect to see? Can't really have a village that gives them, as barring black market, it's strictly better than bazaar if it costs $5, and at $6... well, you'd need some other ability. Necropolis which gives you a token could be a $2, probably reasonably balanced, not terribly hot. I think more interesting would be something like "+1 buy. Gain 2 coin tokens." for $4. Well, maybe this is too strong for $4 - actually I'm guessing it would be QUITE good there, probably printable without the buy even. With the buy, it's bananas in engines, combo decks, and slogs, and not at all bad in big money. I mean, big money likes the smoothing a lot, too, particularly if it's your kind of simple BM, where mostly you are buying silver and gold. 5-cost cards that you want tend to probably push you to not saving so much, and of course most games have those. Anyway, I expect we won't see too many vanilla-like cards with coin tokens - it wouldn't surprise me if Baker is the only one.


Okay, the set-up. Usually, I suspect you'll use this to take a 5-3 opening. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if this makes silver just a lot less prevalent - the main goal of silver, in a lot of decks, is to get you up to 5, which is hard to do without silver in many respects. But here, you've got that $5 locked down. And very often, your $5 will help a good deal in getting to more 5s. 6/2? Well, there aren't all that many 6s I want turn 1. Yeah, goons is pretty good any time, though I think most often this is not so much better than the 5 you were going to get. Altar, yeah. Gold, well, would you not rather have the 5 card most of the time? Particularly when you get to save the token? I think you would. Border village, almost certainly not. I mean, just take the 5, you don't need the village yet anyway. And most of the other 6s, I mean, it's not like I'm oozing for a t1 adventurer or farmland or fairgrounds. 4/4 opening? Well, it's true that 4 is supposed to be there because you can't open double them, but on the other hand, I am not so sure that this is actually true in practice for so many 4s - particularly when you consider that, not only does it have to be 'worth it' in terms of avoiding the terminal collision and what have you, but also in terms of spending the token, AND in forgoing te 5/3 you could have had. So I just don't see this as actually giving much impact at all. And then there's saving it. Probably this is most useful for some boring board where you are playing e.g. Smithy BM. But if you just want a 4/3 anyway, because there are no 5s worth having, or having early, for instance, then you are good there.


The card itself: I imagine it will see some use in engines, just because treasury, market, highway, et al see play sometimes even when they're more or less just peddlers. I mean, I like this better than, say, treasury, but worse for engines than, oh, bazaar and highway, which are both excellent engine cards (assuming you have some buy/gain for highway of course), and even market, which you usually don't want tons of, but then that 1-3 can be really really key. This probably won't be a key card in almost any engine, or deck maybe, but just a nice solid support card... which isn't very good, just because it costs 5, which is a huge opportunity cost! I have to say, I disagree with Stef - this card is TERRIBLE for Big Money - terminal draw. I mean, you are going to draw it dead off of something like smity, it competes with a lot of the $5 draw cards, which will just be better, this leaves... well basically, courtyard. And okay, courtyard won't have this collide (much), but you end up getting fewer courtyards, and given that this doesn't have just oodles of upside for that particular deck... I'm sure it will help that deck some, I grant you, but I doubt it is a lot better. And much of that time even, you'll have something nicer to do with $5. I assume this is best in sort of money decks without terminal draw. Of course, these decks aren't very numerous, because they generally aren't that good, but you see them sometimes. So something like this and monument, this and swindler, maybe even fortune teller and cutpurse and militia, this kind of stuff. Something like mountebank would fit there, too, at least potentially. Such decks currently pick up caravans, labs, stables, this kind of thing, as well as peddler variants, and I assume this will hit in there, and significantly better than at least most of the other peddler-types.

I find it totally unsurprising that BM-this beats BM-Market. Of course, you aren't going to ply either of those decks, really almost ever, without other stuff. If you get the play rules right for this, I bet it's even bigger than that. I mean, market for that deck... you're almost never using the +buy there.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #152 on: June 03, 2013, 06:58:10 pm »
+1

I feel that this card will be a fantastic opening buy (since you are guaranteed 5$) in games with other 5$ power cards or combo cards.  Especially starting with 1st player advantage.  Because it allows you to use/hoard the exact amount of currency you need to get the card you need without overspending.

There are many, many 4$ and 5$ cards that are worth overpaying for.  But each time you overpay, you put yourself at a disadvantage vs a player going for a similar strategy. It's rough when you are playing a game with Jack of all trades, but open 5/2 and never draw a 4.  Or you see an amazing apothecary combo, and never get a 4. (Who wants to overpay for a potion, ughhh).  Baker allows you to be strategic early as well as the province phase. I'd argue it's more valuable to bump a 4$ silver turn into a wharf or ghost ship, than bumping 7$ into a gold.

I've lost many games with powerful 5$ and 4$ cards because I'm constantly pulling 6$ and 3$.  There are times where even on turn 5 of 6, a silver would be slowing down your deck, so 3$ hands are just about the worst thing you could possibly draw. (minion, scrying pool, lots of discarding attacks).

Baker is like insurance, that you are going to get the exact amount of money you need to get your deck rolling. It reduces bad luck and swing, a perfect opening card if you already have 1p advantage. Fantastic combo with wharf/BM, embassy/tunnel, Haggler BM, minion engines, anything where there is a clear extremely powerful strategy and you are worried about a bad string of 6$/3$ splits, or those dreaded mountebank games where it seems like you never get to 5 or 6$
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #153 on: June 03, 2013, 07:56:27 pm »
+2

Regarding whether to spend a token now or later, I believe that the real deadline is "this shuffle" or a later one.  Usually, you won't see your newly acquired cards until the next shuffle, so you are not losing any utility a priori by saving your token a few hands, so long as you do not hit a reshuffle.
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StrongRhino

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #154 on: June 03, 2013, 08:37:19 pm »
+1

Also, I want to play with this, so Goko needs to put this up for me to try.
Iso should have them by now, right?





oh, wait

Let's please not start that again.
Sorry, I just had to.
But really, I wanna play guilds as soon as possible. It might be awhile before I get the physicall version, so Goko better have it within a week. Realistically though, probably a month  >:(
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #155 on: June 03, 2013, 08:51:17 pm »
0

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you can spend your opponent's tokens.
just spend all your tokens at the turn you opponent buys possesion and buy a province or something and you are good to go.

Yeah but that still means you start losing the utility of them after the possessing starts. The whole point of having them in the first place is to be able to save them. But with a Possession in your opponent's deck saving them is a liability. It's not as bad as having an Ambassador or a Masquerade but it's still going to hurt.

My initial impression is that you are going to want to spend the coins quickly - they are like short-term loans or something. The longer you hold on to them, the less utility you are getting from the Baker. If you can play Baker and then quickly invest the coin into a better card and start cycling the card, then Baker helped you very much over the rest of the game. If you sit and accumulate coins, then you aren't improving you deck as rapidly. If played in that manner, then Possession is an annoyance and can be frustrating, but you wouldn't necessarily rush to trash your Baker just because your opponent bought Possession.

So as either a Peddler or a delayed Peddler - see, I don't feel that's quite worth $5.  Sure, in the early and mid game you probably want to spend them quickly, but in the late game you probably shouldn't spend them unless you actually have $8.  I see them as a way to make more expensive purchases easier.  Turn those $7s into $8s, rather than $3s into $4s.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #156 on: June 03, 2013, 09:37:21 pm »
+1

The setup effect is higher variance, not reduced variance, imo.  It does "fix" 5/2 unfairnesses, but in general it accelarates the game, and game acceleration generally exacerbates first player advantage.  That's not a complaint, I think the effect is interesting and worthwhile and well worth the drawback.  I'm just pointing out that I think those arguing the contrary are wrong.
Furthermore, Militia vs. Militia first player advantage is nasty, but Witch versus Witch first player advantage is even bigger.

In general this will be a skill intensive card, with wise use of coin tokens.  And that's pretty cool.  You can use the bakers as a balanced "cantrip VP token generator", generating you .75 VP every play, provided you have something like Worker's Village going on in the setup. 
That's usually going to be weak and slow, but hopefully there is some setup where it works. (maybe with Silk Road, where the VP tokens could easily be 1.25)
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Polk5440

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #157 on: June 03, 2013, 11:56:14 pm »
+1

I am excited!

My first thoughts:

1) I am happy the card is pretty simple.
2) I am glad the new mechanic does not require a new mat or a new type of token... just repurposes one.
3) Peddler plus save it for later. It has to be $5. But this might be a card like Inn where the "special effect" is often more interesting than actually having the card in your deck.

4) I thought Scout jokes were passe.
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Guy Srinivasan

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #158 on: June 03, 2013, 11:57:32 pm »
0

I feel that this card will be a fantastic opening buy (since you are guaranteed 5$) in games with other 5$ power cards or combo cards.  Especially starting with 1st player advantage.  Because it allows you to use/hoard the exact amount of currency you need to get the card you need without overspending.
But you also definitely get 1 fewer power 5$, and it's the worst one: your first.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #159 on: June 04, 2013, 12:12:48 am »
0

Baker is definitely going to be an engine card. You want to play it a lot! It's not worth all that much if you just play it like 4-5 times all game, or something. This card wants cycling and trashing and draw everything and buy lots of components and have this extra pile of coin to do exactly what you want.

In a BM deck, sure, it will be nice to smooth out a $7 hand now and then, but the opportunity cost of spending $5 for this thing probably just isn't worth it so much. Never in terminal BM at any rate. Perhaps in BM Haggler or BM Monument decks, but that's a fairly rare thing.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #160 on: June 04, 2013, 12:17:41 am »
+1

I'm just imagining a trimmed engine with Baker and plenty of +Buy, and only buying what your engine needs at the time, and saving the excess in coin tokens, then cashing out in one final turn.  Of course, you have to watch your opponent's coin token pile and cash out before they do.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #161 on: June 04, 2013, 01:36:44 am »
0

I'm just imagining a trimmed engine with Baker and plenty of +Buy, and only buying what your engine needs at the time, and saving the excess in coin tokens, then cashing out in one final turn.  Of course, you have to watch your opponent's coin token pile and cash out before they do.
Maybe it will be a valid strategy with other coin giving cards on the board so you can get a lot of them.
maybe there is a vanilla

Coin giver 4$
gain 2 coin tokens + X
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Jacob marley

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #162 on: June 04, 2013, 02:07:32 am »
+3

I so want there to be 13 cards in this pile instead of 10...

Assuming that the Butcher leak is correct, we also really need a candlestick maker card.
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Davio

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #163 on: June 04, 2013, 02:58:21 am »
+1

I just love the idea of being able to save and spend extra money, it widens the decision spectrum and in my view that's (almost) always a good thing.

And with Baker, that's happening from the get-go with your extra token. No more whining about 4/3 vs a 5/2 Mint/FG or Mountebank/Chapel opener. Sure, same starting hands are always going to be the most equal you can get (or letting players choose their opening hands), but this compensates at least.

The fact that you don't need to play a certain card to allow you to spend the coin tokens is pretty sweet. This means you're facing a tougher decision on every hand.

From a strategic point of view, it's probably better to spend them early due to the cascading nature of Dominion. Good cards earlier are way better than good cards later (just imagine a Wharf played 3 times vs a Wharf played 4 times, that's a 3 card difference). But while I say this, a late Province is much better than a Duchy for 7.

So I look forward to facing those choices. There will be moments when I think: "Hmm, if I spend this coin now, I can get a Gold instead of a crappy $5, but if I save it, I might get a Province instead of a Duchy. But if I save it and don't need it, I'll have wasted it."

The last part is especially interesting. When you start saving coins for "possible" shortcomings in the end game, there's no guarantee this will happen. Instead of 7 with 1 available coin, you might hit 6 with 1 coin. So spending them when you know you want to is probably good, meaning as early as possible. Heck, you can get more with Baker anyway.

I haven't read all 50 pages of this topic to be honest, but I assume Guilds will provide its own coins and not force you to use the ones from Seaside or Prosperity, right?

And WW's point about coins not being in your deck is also huuugely important.

I'm not going to argue that this card is better than Market, since Market's +Buy is a necessary component sometimes, but the fact that it gives you the option when you want to spend this Peddler-variant's +$1 makes it a very skillful card, which is extra fun because it doesn't look like one.

What do you guys think about the art? I think it's too cartoony to fit in with the rest.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #164 on: June 04, 2013, 03:41:41 am »
0

I am wondering about the German translation, as German job titles normally convey the person's gender. As the male version is seen as the generic, I'd expect the lady being titled as "Bäcker" rather than "Bäckerin" or "Bäckersfrau", just as Peddler being "Hausierer" in the German version.
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loppo

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #165 on: June 04, 2013, 05:01:40 am »
0

I wouldn't be surpirised if they name the card "Bäckerei" = "bakery" just to avoid the whole genderthing.

Actually i'm more wondering if there will be a german version at all, given that Hans im Glück split with Rio Grande. It will be hard for a new publisher to make money in the german area with all the old copies of Hans im Glück Dominion still lying around.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #166 on: June 04, 2013, 05:02:11 am »
0

I find it totally unsurprising that BM-this beats BM-Market. Of course, you aren't going to ply either of those decks, really almost ever, without other stuff. If you get the play rules right for this, I bet it's even bigger than that. I mean, market for that deck... you're almost never using the +buy there.
I won with BM Market-terminal once.

I was VERY intoxicated.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #167 on: June 04, 2013, 05:05:04 am »
0

I wouldn't be surpirised if they name the card "Bäckerei" = "bakery" just to avoid the whole genderthing.

Actually i'm more wondering if there will be a german version at all, given that Hans im Glück split with Rio Grande. It will be hard for a new publisher to make money in the german area with all the old copies of Hans im Glück Dominion still lying around.
the German version was confirmed somewhere on BGG I think, and to me it sounded like RGG would publish it themselves.
edit: it wasn't BGG, someone from a German forum emailed them:  http://forum.dominionblog.de/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2465&start=20#p44919
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 05:08:33 am by Watno »
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pst

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #168 on: June 04, 2013, 05:21:05 am »
0

But really, I wanna play guilds as soon as possible. It might be awhile before I get the physicall version, so Goko better have it within a week.

It would have been fun and maybe worthwhile for them if they had included the current teaser card for free just during its day to increase interest (is possible!).
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pst

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #169 on: June 04, 2013, 05:38:22 am »
0

I think double Tactician could work excellent with coin tokens for money!
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #170 on: June 04, 2013, 05:39:16 am »
+2

I have to say, I disagree with Stef - this card is TERRIBLE for Big Money - terminal draw. I mean, you are going to draw it dead off of something like smity, it competes with a lot of the $5 draw cards, which will just be better, this leaves... well basically, courtyard. And okay, courtyard won't have this collide (much), but you end up getting fewer courtyards, and given that this doesn't have just oodles of upside for that particular deck... I'm sure it will help that deck some, I grant you, but I doubt it is a lot better. And much of that time even, you'll have something nicer to do with $5. I assume this is best in sort of money decks without terminal draw. Of course, these decks aren't very numerous, because they generally aren't that good, but you see them sometimes.

I don't want to play this card in BM-embassy, rabble, Margrave or Vault. In fact, I don't think I want to play it in any BM-mirror-match. But I do want to play it in a non-mirror-match. The BM-ish player is often desperately trying to secure enough points before the engine gets to full steam. Getting the last 1-2 provinces you need is a huge deal, and could easily take more then 5 turns. In those turns the Monuments, Fairgrounds, Bishops or whatever are flying around your ears. In the meanwhile $6 & $7 hands just make you go crazy. A few coins could solve all your problems.

But as you point out, non-draw-BM is a much better spot for this card. In fact, that just might be great. Although they're not that numerous now, Baker may very well make them good.
Baker-BM-doubleX looks pretty darn solid. X could be Monument, Militia, Merchant Ship, or something alike. I'm not claiming mega-strong, but very solid, because you can continue buying provinces after your first 4.

For powerful engines, $5 for $1 isn't that great, especially not against someone not playing the engine. In engine vs engine, building up coin tokens as an alternative for buying green may be good, but then they're coming in late.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #171 on: June 04, 2013, 05:46:28 am »
0

What do you guys think about the art? I think it's too cartoony to fit in with the rest.

Some discussion about the art over there: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7717.msg221661#msg221661

Her attire looks like something from the 1980s rather like the time Dominion is supposed to reflect.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #172 on: June 04, 2013, 06:25:52 am »
0

I think double Tactician could work excellent with coin tokens for money!

Agree that Tactician would work well with Baker in general. Thought the coin tokens mechanism itself does not specifically help Double Tactician deck more than other normal coin-giving action.

I would say coin tokens actually help a single Tactician deck more than a double Tactician deck, in a sense that you could save some token to use in the turn you play Tactician.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #173 on: June 04, 2013, 06:47:28 am »
+1

What do you guys think about the art? I think it's too cartoony to fit in with the rest.

Some discussion about the art over there: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7717.msg221661#msg221661

Her attire looks like something from the 1980s rather like the time Dominion is supposed to reflect.

I really didn't like the earlier cartoony art on dominion cards like Harem and Shanty Town.... but the art on Baker.... I like it better for some reason.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #174 on: June 04, 2013, 08:04:13 am »
+1

I also kind of like how it mimics Goko adventures, too, by changing your opening options.
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