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Synthesizer

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2013, 02:53:58 am »
+1

The core difference between US sports and Euro sports is that US sports are about drama.

Whereas in the US, drama happens between teams, in Europe, apparently it happens between fans...

:D

But anyway, Euro sports are just as much about drama. It's just that drama != goals. The pushing and shoving and holding and pinching in the goal area before a corner kick in soccer is drama. The pushing and shoving and holding and pinching to obtain a good position for the final sprint in cycling is drama. (hey, that sounds similar :)) Someone setting a good time in speed skating, and then having to wait for 20 more contestants to finish their races, showing faster split times but ending slower is drama (though arguably, the US had the best speed skater ever with Eric Heiden, and also Shani Davis kicks ass). The tension before a penalty corner in field hockey is drama.

It's not really clear to me what works where - basketball and hockey have all the right ingredients to be popular in the Netherlands - but they aren't. Basketball is popular more in the south of Europe; hockey more in the north and east. Field hockey and soccer have all the ingredients to be popular in the US - but they aren't. For some reason there is only one tiny little country in the northwest of Europe that seems to care much about speed skating, and then one larger but less populated that sort of cares (the US has more golds but less total medals. Oh, and roughly 20 times higher population.)
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Davio

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2013, 03:45:56 am »
0

Well, I would argue that history plays a big part.

Football/soccer in its current form comes from England so it was easy to spread to the Netherlands.
But when American football developed out of football it was still in its old form with handling the ball with your hands.

Even though some American sports could have the right ingredients to become popular in the Netherlands, I think Netherlands is too small a country to have that many popular sports. There are already like 3.5 million active football players...
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2013, 07:42:30 am »
0

The two reasons my friends don't like following soccer (other than the ridiculous "but nothing happens!" argument, [...]

I think it has to do with the fact that you can't "play for a draw", and use negative tactics to ensure a better chance at a result. I see the side of this argument, but I think that playing for a draw should be valid, as well.

I fail to see how that's ridiculous. it's true.

I compare it to American football, which has 45 seconds off, 15 seconds on, repeatedly. In a tree hour game there's so, so, so much less action.

But the pauses in action are necessary for the overall game.  During the pauses, the offense is setting up a play that the defense has to get ready to try to read.  Once you understand the strategy behind the game, there is excitement in seeing how the formations are being set up by each team even if they're not moving at that moment.  About the only time that the teams are literally doing nothing is during time-outs or when they're trying to run down the clock.

(This does not count commercials, of which there are way too many.)

In any case it's often hard to make a valid criticism of a sport you don't know much about.  I don't watch soccer or really understand more than the basic "kick it into the net".  When I do watch a game, it just looks like people kicking a ball back and forth, until maybe one of them happens to kick it in the net once or twice during a 90 minute game.  I know there's more than this to the game if I actually took the time to understand what the strategy was. 
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2013, 09:51:17 am »
0

The two reasons my friends don't like following soccer (other than the ridiculous "but nothing happens!" argument, [...]

I think it has to do with the fact that you can't "play for a draw", and use negative tactics to ensure a better chance at a result. I see the side of this argument, but I think that playing for a draw should be valid, as well.

I fail to see how that's ridiculous. it's true.

I compare it to American football, which has 45 seconds off, 15 seconds on, repeatedly. In a tree hour game there's so, so, so much less action.

This is kind of an issue I've always had with American Football. So little of the time is spent doing stuff. I'm not really a Football fan (well... I couldn't care much less for most sports in general) but at least Football can be somewhat entertaining, with the fact there's always action, potential plays are created regularly, there's attacks on goal probably once per minute or once per two minutes or so, but mainly, it's that constant action that's good. American Football is... so little going on. And even when there is action (for seconds at a time), most of it is pretty comparable to just dribbling around in football - people just trying to push a couple more feet up the field etc. (note: I don't know most of the rules of American Football, most of what I know is pop culture and my housemate telling me a few basics).
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dondon151

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2013, 11:16:40 am »
0

but mainly, it's that constant action that's good.

I'd argue that it's the constant action that's bad, or rather, unappealing to people who don't like football. The problem is that most of what happens on the field tends to seem inconsequential. Players lose control of the ball, they kick the ball away, the ball goes out of bounds, etc. I can't speak for everyone else, but I know for a fact that I can't watch football because it is just a constant stream of monotony.

On the other hand, one expects crazy things to happen in American football, and they usually do happen a few times per game. I can't condone supporting the sport anymore after all of the discoveries about brain damage, though.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2013, 11:27:21 am »
0

The two reasons my friends don't like following soccer (other than the ridiculous "but nothing happens!" argument, [...]

I think it has to do with the fact that you can't "play for a draw", and use negative tactics to ensure a better chance at a result. I see the side of this argument, but I think that playing for a draw should be valid, as well.

I fail to see how that's ridiculous. it's true.

I compare it to American football, which has 45 seconds off, 15 seconds on, repeatedly. In a tree hour game there's so, so, so much less action.

The brilliant part is that you know when the action is going to occur, which makes it a great sport for casual viewers. You don't have to pay too much attention to catch all the action.

I think this is a key point -- I watch soccer and (american) football in completely different company. I usually watch football with my friends, and more of a social activity than as a sports fan these days -- I still know more than enough about everything that's going on, and follow the league during the week, but I'm just far less interested in actually analyzing the game.

I'm much more likely to watch soccer alone, on the other hand. The tactics and formations are more interesting to watch, and I find myself glued to the screen much more than I do with football. I also never get tired of watching the skill of the players -- I'm always amazed at how easy they make such difficult things look (controlling a pass from 50 yards away, putting the perfect spin on the pass so it can get to the right spot, etc.)
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2013, 12:11:38 pm »
0

But the pauses in action are necessary for the overall game.  During the pauses, the offense is setting up a play that the defense has to get ready to try to read.  Once you understand the strategy behind the game, there is excitement in seeing how the formations are being set up by each team even if they're not moving at that moment.  About the only time that the teams are literally doing nothing is during time-outs or when they're trying to run down the clock.

While on some level you have a point, if we're going to cast football as a game of tactics and bluffing, well, I bet I can create a board game that takes that into account and rolls dice for strength/dexterity, that has a lot less downtime.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2013, 12:35:20 pm »
+5

ITT: people make most of the exact same arguments about different sports but frame it so that their sport is perceived better.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2013, 01:17:28 pm »
+1

But the pauses in action are necessary for the overall game.  During the pauses, the offense is setting up a play that the defense has to get ready to try to read.  Once you understand the strategy behind the game, there is excitement in seeing how the formations are being set up by each team even if they're not moving at that moment.  About the only time that the teams are literally doing nothing is during time-outs or when they're trying to run down the clock.

While on some level you have a point, if we're going to cast football as a game of tactics and bluffing, well, I bet I can create a board game that takes that into account and rolls dice for strength/dexterity, that has a lot less downtime.

But if that's true...
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dondon151

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2013, 01:18:06 pm »
+1

While on some level you have a point, if we're going to cast football as a game of tactics and bluffing, well, I bet I can create a board game that takes that into account and rolls dice for strength/dexterity, that has a lot less downtime.

Only if this board game involves hunks of flesh crashing into each other.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2013, 01:30:18 pm »
0

And even when there is action (for seconds at a time), most of it is pretty comparable to just dribbling around in football - people just trying to push a couple more feet up the field etc

Right, and that's what I meant in my previous post -- I'm well aware that a lot of people who don't understand football watch it and just see a bunch of people running into each other.  But that's like me watching soccer -- I don't get any of the formations or technical skill or whatever, it just looks like people kicking a ball back and forth.  I've never really made an attempt to understand or like soccer because I spend enough time watching football and basketball, and I don't really need another sport to watch.

(As for the "why not play sports instead of watch", I feel like that's similar to "Why don't you write a book instead of reading them")
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gman314

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2013, 01:43:10 pm »
+1

While on some level you have a point, if we're going to cast football as a game of tactics and bluffing, well, I bet I can create a board game that takes that into account and rolls dice for strength/dexterity, that has a lot less downtime.

Only if this board game involves hunks of flesh crashing into each other.

The pieces are hunks of meat, which you slide at each other like crokinole pieces.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2013, 02:49:02 pm »
0

I like how this thread has turned from a discussion on draws to an argument about different sports.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2013, 05:24:34 am »
0

I like how this thread has turned from a discussion on draws to an argument about different sports.
I don't.  :(

I generally don't mind threads getting derailed, but I don't like sports and I feel like the discussion on draws wasn't over yet. But it's not like I have anything more to say on the subject though, I just still think that the point of games is to win them (in theory) and a tie means that nobody wins.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2013, 06:55:41 am »
+1

Quote
I just still think that the point of games is to win them (in theory) and a tie means that nobody wins.

The point of games is to enjoy them and if you draw you can enjoy the result just as much as your opponent. The same can be said for supporters.
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Awaclus

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2013, 11:53:17 am »
0

Quote
I just still think that the point of games is to win them (in theory) and a tie means that nobody wins.

The point of games is to enjoy them and if you draw you can enjoy the result just as much as your opponent. The same can be said for supporters.
"The point of games is winning" was a bad choice of words earlier. It's true that the point of playing games is having fun (at least for most people). What I meant was really "playing a game [in which winning is the goal] = trying to win" (this also means that the point of trying to win is not winning, it's having fun).

I enjoy playing a game, not the result. I couldn't care less if I won or lost after the game is over, because it's just a game and now we're back in real life. A tie is not bad when it happens, but if a tie is likely to happen, it's more difficult to win and that, in my opinion, makes playing the game less interesting because winning is already pretty difficult - on average, you have to retry exactly once in two-player games if there are no ties, and retrying exactly once is probably close to the optimal difficulty level for maximum interestingness for my tastes. In Dominion, a tie happens probably once every 50 or so games, and that's not too often, but in Tic Tac Toe, a tie happens basically every time and it's probably the most boring game ever.
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dondon151

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2013, 12:34:45 pm »
+3

Because tic-tac-toe is as deep a game as Dominion.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2013, 12:50:56 pm »
+1

In Dominion, a tie happens probably once every 50 or so games, and that's not too often, but in Tic Tac Toe, a tie happens basically every time and it's probably the most boring game ever.
A tie happens basically every time in Tic Tac Toe because the game has been solved, so that one's a bit of a red herring. There are plenty of games which are perfectly playable despite a high draw percentage - chess, for example, has a draw rate of something like 46% at the top level, and it's a game where the prospect of a draw actually adds to the strategic depth.
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Awaclus

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2013, 01:06:17 pm »
0

Because tic-tac-toe is as deep a game as Dominion.
It's not. And I believe the lack of depth is a direct result from the fact that it's always a tie. There's a variation of it with an unlimited grid and you need five in a row instead of three. Now this variation is actually very deep. Not as deep as Dominion, but I'd say we are talking about Carcassonne base game level of depth here. And the main difference between Tic-Tac-Toe and this variation is simply that ties never happen.

Actually this game is very similar to the variation I'm talking about, except it's not as interesting because the grid isn't unlimited, and they hold world champs, it's deep enough for that.

Jack Rudd: Yes, at the top level. Gaming doesn't have to be fun at the top level. Would it have become so popular if there was a draw 46% of the time when casual players played it? I very much doubt that.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 01:12:40 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2013, 01:11:37 pm »
0

I doubt tic tac toe would be more interesting if the starting player always wins.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2013, 01:13:39 pm »
0

I doubt tic tac toe would be more interesting if the starting player always wins.
Because it's impossible for the p2 to win.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2013, 01:15:30 pm »
+2

Yes, but that shows that the problem isn't that the outcome is always a tie, the problem is that it's always the same.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #72 on: June 01, 2013, 01:25:34 pm »
0

Yes, but that shows that the problem isn't that the outcome is always a tie, the problem is that it's always the same.
Actually it is more interesting if the starting player always wins, because if you toss a coin or play Rock, Paper, Scissors to see who goes first, the winner is not always the same guy. Yes, it's still very boring, but it's significantly less boring now. In fact, RPS is a fine way of passing time when another person is around and you have nothing better to do.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #73 on: June 01, 2013, 01:43:06 pm »
0

And the main difference between Tic-Tac-Toe and this variation is simply that ties never happen.

Yes, it must definitely be about the ties, not the fact that Tic-Tac-Toe has been solved.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #74 on: June 01, 2013, 01:52:24 pm »
+2

I like how this thread has turned from a discussion on draws to an argument about different sports.
I don't.  :(

I generally don't mind threads getting derailed, but I don't like sports and I feel like the discussion on draws wasn't over yet. But it's not like I have anything more to say on the subject though, I just still think that the point of games is to win them (in theory) and a tie means that nobody wins.

The point of soccer specifically is to accumulate the most points over the season, not to win every game. To that end, ties are perfectly acceptable.

In the context of a board game, of course the goal is as much fun as possible, but a lot of the fun comes in pursuit of victory.

I think ties should be thought of as shared victories rather than shared losses. You get a share of the victory, which is of course inferior to the whole thing, but still better than a loss.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 01:57:03 pm by Twistedarcher »
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