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Author Topic: Hoping to get some discussion  (Read 15261 times)

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philosophyguy

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2013, 10:47:07 am »
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Geronimoo, does the optimal strategy involve a Militia at any point, or does the wasted gain slow down the engine too much?
I tried injecting a Militia at different points in the game, but they always made the win rate drop.

I find that amazing. WM sifting + Wharf is strong enough to outrace Militia even on a board when $5s are key. This game keeps surprising me!
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dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2013, 11:05:05 am »
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Militia would only be helpful on turns 3-4. It tends to not do much against Durations and drawing engines.

I at least would still open Militia, because you're pretty screwed if you don't hit $5.
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AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2013, 04:54:55 pm »
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I've tried this a few more times against bots. A few things I've noticed:

Bots will pretty much always go for a minion stack. Getting hit with a minion to deny a $5 hand really hurts. It's a little weird to think that militia is skippable but I think that's only because ironworks is so good here.

I still need to try tweaking some stuff here, but so far I've had much more success with prioritizing wharves than highways...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2013, 01:27:52 pm »
+1

Well, I am not going to talk about the individual games, because I don't really have the time to go through and watch & analyze them all right now. But about your general question: Just +cards, +actions, and +buy don't make the engine strong enough to win, usually, even if they're good versions. Maybe exceptional versions will occasionally have it happen, but more often you either need: reasonably strong trashing, a decent attack, some way to go crazy in the end (a la a bunch of bridges just letting you buy *everything*), or reasonably good alt-VP as well.

What is good enough, yes, depends on the kingdom. Things like vault+embassy really skew to BM, lots of other stuff skews to engine. How good does the alt-VP need to be? Generally, Vineyards and colonies almost always are enough, fairgrounds usually, gardens and SR are middle of the road, others don't help tons but do a tiny bit.

Hope that was helpful.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 05:51:39 pm by WanderingWinder »
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AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2013, 03:11:13 pm »
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OK then, I understand the concept you're talking about, perhaps it's possible that I'm playing engines that are too weak, but if my opponent is able to get the engine to function and I'm not, it makes me wonder about the way I put it together as opposed to whether or not it's actually viable.

Some examples from the Recommended Kingdoms page



Game A: Moat, Fortune Teller, Bridge, Moneylender, Smithy, Throne Room, Festival, Jester, Vault, Fairgrounds (Game 8 of the DS 2012 Championships)

Jester is a junker, and Moneylender the only trashing, with Fortune Teller/Jester and no way to trash curses. Draw is weak as well with Smithy being best, and Festival being the only village (which doesn't draw). Throne Room helps, and I have to believe an engine here beats BM+Smithy. Do you go for it? How do you build it? What are you priorities?



Game B: Courtyard, Minion, Steward, Mining Village, Conspirator, Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Council Room, Mine, Militia (The first game on the page, for GenCon 2012, a Base/Intrigue set)

Engine here is obvious, and you even have strong trashing with Steward, plus lots of cool stuff to go with it. Council Room is the only +Buy though, so how do you build this engine? Again, what are your priorities?



Game C: Embargo, University, Scrying Pool, Worker's Village, Remodel, Wharf, Rabble, Grand Market, Forge, Peddler -- with Colonies (Game 5 of the DS 2011 Championships)

Remodel for trashing, but that doesn't decrease your deck size. Forge works for that, but in order to use it effectively you have to draw first, then Forge. Lots of power here, and boy did I get killed on this board by a guy who bought no Wharves, but Rabbles instead. You wouldn't believe how many turns I took before I hit $5 the first time, and the game was over by that point. Again, how do you build this?
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dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2013, 05:34:59 pm »
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Game A: Moneylender is a good enough trasher. WW exaggerates a bit when he says that "reasonably strong trashing" is needed for this kind of engine. Even bad trashers can be reasonably strong depending on the support. Anyway, Fairgrounds is an engine indicator. How to go around building it is fairly straightforward: Smithy or TR at $4 (with ~2 Bridges along the way), Festival at $5+, maybe a Jester. Pray that you don't hit $3 or less; if you do, it may be worth getting a Moat. If your opponent goes for a money strategy, both Fortune Teller and Jester are solid attacks.

Game B: I remember this one! The guy playing Courtyard-BM actually won, but I think a good engine has a slight advantage. Even with the CR-Militia synergy, Courtyard-BM can still scrape together money, which is why the engine has problems. You'd want to trash down with Steward and make sure that you can hit $8 before getting a Council Room. And you probably don't want more than one Council Room. I opened Steward/Militia, but I can even see an argument for Steward/MV. I oddly didn't get any Minions here, and I suspect that they're probably not that bad, but I don't know how helpful they would be. I think in this kind of deck, you would want to Minion for discard after some CR plays, then play a Militia to knock out another card. I was not as good back then.

Game C: You don't need to trash out your entire deck for these engines to work. The question here is whether to open with Potion or Remodel. I think I would take Remodel. A Potion could be useful later on, but I would really want to get a little bit of WV/Wharf going and then slam down on the Peddlers. This is a bit of a reactive board because Embargo can discourage an opponent from early Potion cards, but it can also sort of force you into Potion cards if WV, Wharf, or Peddler are blocked.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 05:37:06 pm by dondon151 »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2013, 05:36:37 pm »
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Game A: Moneylender is a good enough trasher. WW exaggerates a bit when he says that "reasonably strong trashing" is needed for this kind of engine.
Maybe you missed the word 'or'?

dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2013, 05:38:37 pm »
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That sort of statement could be easily misconstrued by other people. Looking at AdamH's post, he was doubting that Moneylender and Remodel were sufficient in the posted kingdoms.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2013, 05:52:14 pm »
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That sort of statement could be easily misconstrued by other people. Looking at AdamH's post, he was doubting that Moneylender and Remodel were sufficient in the posted kingdoms.
Sure, if you read it really really fast and just skip over those key words.

Is it better now?

dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2013, 06:09:47 pm »
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Man this is a stupid-as-hell argument.

Just +cards, +actions, and +buy don't make the engine strong enough to win, usually, even if they're good versions. Maybe exceptional versions will occasionally have it happen, but more often you either need: reasonably strong trashing,

If you have +cards, +actions, and +buy (which is your assumption), even a crappy trasher like Develop is good enough. This still proves my point.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2013, 06:27:35 pm »
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Man this is a stupid-as-hell argument.

Just +cards, +actions, and +buy don't make the engine strong enough to win, usually, even if they're good versions. Maybe exceptional versions will occasionally have it happen, but more often you either need: reasonably strong trashing,

If you have +cards, +actions, and +buy (which is your assumption), even a crappy trasher like Develop is good enough. This still proves my point.
If it were true, it would. But it's not true. Which was my point.

Edit: of course, you can disagree with my point, but it's not a misconstruing thing.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 06:41:28 pm by WanderingWinder »
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AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2013, 07:25:22 pm »
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Whoa. Thanks for your discussion, guys. Throughout this entire thread people have had different opinions on everything and I want to hear them all. We're all good at the game (except for maybe me).

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but when it comes to trashing, I classify Strong Trashers as cards that can remove two "bad cards" from your deck with one play. Weak trashers cannot. A "bad card" is a card you don't want in your deck, which can be Copper, Estate, Curse, Ruins, but even Silver and terminals can fit this description under the right circumstances.

The presence of strong trashing and weak trashing will of course shape how powerful a draw engine will be. I find that sometimes weak trashing is enough to help your stuff connect, but sometimes it isn't.

The three kingdoms I posted, when I assessed them for the first time, I saw draw engine because I thought the components were there and they were strong enough. If BM is better then it's better, but then I need to adjust the way I see things.

...if the engine is better and I still lose to BM (or to another engine player) then I need to evaluate how I'm building the engine, which I've identified as a relative weakness in my game. The more opinions I hear, whether the same or different, the more I can potentially learn.

Of course, only I can decide how I view kingdoms and how I play the game.

dondon - It's not too difficult for me to see what I want my deck to look like, and of course from a high level I agree with you on most accounts (except for Game C where I still don't have a feel for what you really want, but Embargo and Potion cards will do that to you). My weakness (and what I could use more focus on) is how to build them. Opening cards are a start, but your suggestions for Game A were very helpful.

In Game A, you talk about getting a Bridge or two, or you talk about "maybe a Jester". When? How do you know it's the right move? The only thing I can come up with is how many terminals you have vs. how many Festivals you have, but I feel like you can never afford the extra terminals there.

In Game C, you're getting a decent amount of gains with your $4 Remodel-gains and only 1 Silver to start. Do you get more Silvers to try and get more $5 hands? I see how WV fits in but how do you prioritize getting Wharves and the cards you have to buy in order to get Wharves?

Wandering Minstrel Wandering Winder (oh I crack myself up), thanks for the input you're willing to give. I appreciate it [/fanboy]
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dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2013, 09:30:16 pm »
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Well it has been awhile since I've played Dominion, so I am understandably rusty.

In Game A, you talk about getting a Bridge or two, or you talk about "maybe a Jester". When? How do you know it's the right move? The only thing I can come up with is how many terminals you have vs. how many Festivals you have, but I feel like you can never afford the extra terminals there.

Jester can slow down your opponent and/or help yourself build your deck faster, so it's probably not totally ignorable. But you also probably don't want more than 2 terminals in a deck without Festivals or TRs. If you open Moneylender, your next $4 should be a Bridge. So if I get $5/$4 on the reshuffle, I would get Festival/Bridge. I think I wouldn't get a Jester until I had 2 Festivals and some TR draw going.

In Game C, you're getting a decent amount of gains with your $4 Remodel-gains and only 1 Silver to start. Do you get more Silvers to try and get more $5 hands? I see how WV fits in but how do you prioritize getting Wharves and the cards you have to buy in order to get Wharves?

You have a fair point. However, I don't think that the extra WV gains from Remodel can be passed up, since they are so important to help winning the Peddler split. If you open with Remodel, you're taking the gamble that in the worst case scenario, you might not hit $5 for a Wharf for awhile. But in most circumstances, you will hit $5 after the second reshuffle at the latest, because you've been trashing Estates (and you've picked up a Silver or two). You might have gotten unlucky in that one game you had where your opponent's Rabble probably skipped all of your good cards.
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DG

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2013, 10:07:33 pm »
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These kingdoms from Donald X are particularly difficult and are even more complicated multiplayer. They need to be reactive towards your opponent's play and there enough options that you can't predict everything. Some subtle interactions can catch you out. Draws can push you into different strategies. There might be key cards or not. There's a counter to everything.

With that in mind I'm hesitant to give you firm advice other than to say that you can run a very thin remodel deck in game C, gaining worker's villages and embargoes. Whether it's better than the alternatives or if you should stick to that with unusual draws, well I wouldn't want to say.
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-Stef-

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2013, 05:55:16 am »
+3

If we play a 5-card-kingdom with Village, Smithy, Market, Develop & Spy, I would build an engine.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2013, 06:34:43 pm »
+1

If we play a 5-card-kingdom with Village, Smithy, Market, Develop & Spy, I would build an engine.
Only those 5?
I'll take you up on that.

Eevee

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2013, 07:51:33 pm »
+2

If we play a 5-card-kingdom with Village, Smithy, Market, Develop & Spy, I would build an engine.
Only those 5?
I'll take you up on that.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2013, 09:46:51 pm »
+5

Okay, watched your video, and I have some thoughts.

The first thing is that in these kinds of games, strategy is of course important, but you absolutely must have very keen tactical senses and adjust your strategy to fit what the game and your opponent are throwing out to you. You can't just play in a vacuum, you can't play like a simulator, and you certainly can't play like a bot (Bots are tactically DREADFUL).

So the one from the video. Everything is so strong here! But okay, potion costs are right out, being relatively slow. Minion goes, too, as well, a lot of the stuff works decently well (counterfeit, WM, highway), but nothing is *that* great, and something like wharf is just strong anyway. I would actually discount militia relatively early, too. Of the strategies that are left, your 4s and/or terminals will be at premiums, and the discard attack... well it always hurts, but not THAT much, particularly with the wharves flying. So then you have Wharf/Hoard/Counterfeit money. This has got to be a very good strategy, though tricky to time right. In any case, I think this is probably the second-best thing, and it will win on most boards, but here it's got to just be a fair bit too slow.
We want to go IW/WM/Highway/Wharf. You can actually possibly pull such a deck off without wharf. Well, probably - and without any card draw, really. Anyway, if wharf is here, it will help. First thing is to get your drawing up, so you are playing your key cards most every turn. Wharf helps a good bit here, especially early, but the most important card is actually Wandering Minstrel - and this is why you want to open IW. After a little while - probably some time around 2 wharves, but you have to see what your deck gives you - if you get 2 wharves before turn 5-6, you aren't there yet, but if you get to turn 8-9 and only have one, you can probably move on - you will be playing most of your key cards every turn. Sometime around here, you want to start going bigger, and this means at least the first highway. This will let you grab more key 5-costs with your ironworks, and this is critical. Also, highways will work with the WM pretty well, so that you can weave all your actions in the right order to maximize critical card playing. Now, after the first highway, maybe you go back for more wharves, if you need more draw, or maybe you keep pounding highways. Somewhere around this point, you want to start building more ironworks, too. And this is the part of the game where things get tricky, because all this stuff, you also have to maintain enough WMs to play everything, and wharves to draw things. Also wharves' buys can start to be important. Eventually, you want to make sure you have at least 4 highways, so that you can IW province. You also probably want to have lots of WM to be able to hammer lots of provinces on the same turn. But the biggest point is that all of the last several sentences is probably total crap - the game won't progress this far and you'll be staring down three pile endings and have to navigate very carefully to get the right mix of points and components to not lose immediately to a 3 pile and not get too far behind in deck quality without being able to 3-pile back to win.

The other 3:

Game A: Throne Room definitely counts as a village! This game is probably a bit tricky, because your engine will take a *long* time to get going, but on the other hand, it's going to be a bit difficult for an opponent to finish things out of not-an-engine, and Fairgrounds is sitting there as another pile of provinces. A lesser card (even say gardens) would simply not work here, I don't think, and you will be pulled very strongly to BM in such a case, with vault as a card with pretty good longevity. As is though, there is enough here. You want to thin out first with moneylender, and then start building your engine. Festivals, some moats if the time is right, a jester at some point (this REALLY depends on your opponent and how poach-able their deck is). Mainly festivals and smithies, and at some point lots of throne rooms and bridges, but this largely not until after you have a decent engine, or are right on the cusp of it. Yeah, fortune teller/Jester at some point to give them curses helps out a lot too, but you have to watch a little for 3 pile endings, and maybe not play jester at some point. Well, anyway, once you are good and overbuilt, power through the fairgrounds, and then at the end, make sure you are going to get 15 uniques and probably you are ending the game right when you pull ahead. Unless of course, it's a mirror, in which case you start similarly, and then absolutely react and grab green at weird points, and everything goes to weird places and jester pulls, because 3 piles probably run and you have to be very very tactical

Game B: One steward and a little bit of money into a minion/conspirator engine. Almost any other +buy would make it, but council room is just so not good for you, I suspect it will be better to just go green faster. Eh, I dunno, maybe it works out anyway by a tiny little bit, but I doubt it. This is actually the most straightforward of all the sets, I think.

Game C: You can't really just make a plan here - embargo just does crazy things to most of the strategies. Well, buy an embargo if they overcommit. But actually, if I think about it a little more, it's probably just a WV/Wharf engine. Remodel? Maybe. Probably one, early. If they embargo... well, what are they going to embargo? Peddlers? It's no big deal - one forge cleans up all the curses, and you want it anyway. I guess they can embargo wharf, that hurts you. But you can remodel around it at some point, and WVs buy peddlers anyway. The thing with embargo is that it takes a good chunk of time to get down and costs a fair amount of opportunity. The mirror here is sorta weird - you REALLY want those peddlers, and wharf is by far the best thing here for that, but WV is very good too. Actually, the engine with a little money just buys provinces, too, anyway, and that isn't so bad, especially if they are spending lots of time to work extra-hard to stop your plan A. The biggest point here, on any strategy, is just to have a plan B, so that if they over-work to stop your plan A, you can slide into B pretty easily, and your cost from having to switch is less than theirs from stopping doing an active plan of their own to spend so much effort to stop you.

Qvist

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2013, 09:52:34 pm »
+2

Thanks for putting your time into this, WW. Fyi, we replayed this game a while ago and the result was quite ... let's say interesting.
I'm looking forward to heare your thoughts. Video should be up tomorrow.

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2013, 02:36:55 pm »
0



Now I'm looking forward to get more comments and discussion.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2013, 03:10:38 am »
+2

These are comments to both of you:

First game:
The turn 3 militia does the damage! If you can guarantee it hits denies the only 5-coin hand from turn 3-4 every game, it is probably worth it. Or, maybe just maybe worth it. Regardless, it makes it at least very playable - the problem is that this won't happen *that* often (what, 40% of the time or something?), and the potential advantage of when it hits isn't as big as the potential advantage the other way when it doesn't.

Adam goes Highway before Wharf. This has bot to be a pretty big mistake. Just in general in engine-building, you build the engine up before looking for economic effects. Of course, this lets you IW into 5s, which is quite nice, BUT A) You need some draw (and better to get it early); B) You actually have to connect Highway and Ironworks in the same hand for this to work, and that's unlikely without draw; C) you want a pretty good number of WM anyway, so hitting this combo right out of the gate isn't so huge.

At 3:30, Qvist puts the cards back in what I believe to be a bad order. Generally, you want to get the Wandering Minstrel next, so that you can draw whatever it leaves behind with your Highway *this turn*.

At some point a little after this, Adam says "They would have told me to get a highway." Well, I don't know about others, but I (and at least some of them) would have said Wharf before this, and wharf here. You need the draw.

4:40 There is a key mistake from Adam. He puts the Ironworks below the Wandering Minstrel. So, why is that bad here? Well, it triggers that bad reshuffle you talk about a few seconds later, which led to the ironworksing of an estate just for draw, which isn't something you want to be doing. It also does very little for you now - the wandering minstrel isn't letting you have the actions you need to play more terminals or anything. And it makes your next turn worse. So this is a pretty clear and significant mis-step.

Then towards the end of the game, or maybe after it was over, Adam says "I don't think I could've done better at all." I assume you mean, apart from IW a duchy instead of estate? ;) I've covered what I think some of your other problems were, and I think you did get a little bit of bad luck. BUT probably the biggest thing from this is that mindset; this is a very complex and complicated board, and definitely one which is fluid and dynamic and in which you need to adjust to things as they are happening. On such a board, I would never feel confident that I have played perfectly. Indeed, I don't feel very confident that I've played perfect, really ever, and approximately perfect, not unless it is an extremely simple board where there just aren't many options at all, and one of them is clearly standing out - and is also highly simple. Now, there are some situations where I recognize I couldn't have won no matter what (I once played a dry sea hag board where my hag got hagged on the first three shuffles... I don't think I played it perfect, but it would be very hard to come back from that), but these are just very rare things. Stef has said this before, and while maybe I am not quite so far as him there, it's really not a good mindset to have. Okay, during and right after a game, though, it is quite natural to *feel* this way, just as long as some part of you rationally understands it's unlikely.

By the way, this actually does end up being pretty close, and I am not entirely convinced you needed to blow things up like that. Okay, probably you are just lost anyway, but even with these errors, it's really not *that* far off...

Incidentally, I suspect you would optimally like something like 2-3 silver, though it is a bit tricky to tell. Certainly you don't want to buy really any for more than $3.



Game 2:
Very early, Adam says "If you get an Ironworks, I would get an Ironworks." This strikes me as illogical. It seems to imply that you think in the IW vs militia cross-match-up, you would rather have ironworks (else you'd get militia here). But if that were the case, wouldn't you get ironworks against the opposing militia? The only thing I can think of is that you think that there is somehow a first player effect that means it is better for p2 to mirror because he needs to be able to hit 5 or something. Not only do I think that is wrong on this board (especially that makes you always want to mirror), and in general, but if this *were* the case, it seems to be a 1st-player advantage that would go against your comment that 'this is nice' - indeed, if you are being driven into mirroring, then it's not nice at all - you aren't taking 2nd player's only advantage of reacting/adapting, but you are following and being dictated to.

10:30 So here, IW would have been much better than militia. Okay, this is a rather dramatic example, and just because it happened here doesn't necessarily prove anything, BUT the point I want to make here is not so much that it is the $2 you aren't really needing here (though in this case they are indeed wasted), but the terminal in your deck, which dissuades you from going wharf (which I nevertheless would have done), and which puts you behind on WM to support these terminals as well. It's actually pretty significant.

Shortly after this, Adam makes a comment about not complaining about his militia sliding to turn 3 as P2. Well, of course it is possible that this can be a disadvantage, as early denial is more impactful than later denial, on the other hand, you are more likely here to hit something that he doesn't want to discard. So in a good number of ways, you have more potential to be damaging. Is that worth it? I have found that in general, this attack is about the closest you're going to find to average first-player advantage as you will get, so I don't think that's something particularly complainable-about anyhow.

At some point a bit after this, Qvist counterfeits a silver and ends up with $9 "I can't count, I thought I have 10(!)" Here, you could possibly have counterfeited counterfeit and the silver to get to 10, though to be fair this is not likely to be worth it.

13:50 You are going crazy on the wharves here, Adam. Look how many terminals you have for your villages. It's not so surprising that this causes you problems. I would make one, quite possibly two, of these highways instead.

15:30 I was going to say something here, then you worked it out and made the right play. Nice!

17:55 I'm pretty sure you want to ironworks something here before pitching the hand - it's not so likely that this will come back in the reshuffle meaningfully for you, and you basically just toss a nice card.

18:45 No! You have enough highways to ironworks a province here, and that is what you want to do! This will also shuffle you towards your next reshuffle faster, which is good in the short term, too. But most importantly, the game isn't going to last long enough for that wharf to be meaningful. Here is where you need some of that tactical vision to know that, even though the piles don't look all that low at the moment, you are both playing such explosive decks that they really could dwindle. Indeed, I am not sure, but I would at least have considered going heavy into duchies after IW the provinces. Well, would have had to see what was drawn and take stock.

20:30 Qvist 'should' have counterfeited the counterfeit here - it gives $1 more, which is irrelevant, but it also gives 1 more buy, which... is also irrelevant as he wins anyway, but could have been another duchy. Well, can't really fault a play that forces win on turn with total assurance.

Adam, you absolutely *can*  get lucky/unlucky twice in a row. However, you are just being outplayed here. You aren't building quite optimally. But mostly it is a tactical thing. You are making subtle but important play errors, and you are not adjusting to what is happening. Let's be frank here - this stuff ain't easy. It's what makes Stef really great, in large part. The tactics, the adjustments.

It's why you shouldn't really trust the simulator here - there are too many intricate play decisions it is going to get wrong, potentially with ironworks gains, play orders, and especially WM put-backs, as well as being able to adjust the buys based on how well you're deck is coming together and what the other player is doing, as well as how his deck is coming together. Timing in such games is really complicated, and it's not so easy to write a script for it.

Oh, also counterfeit and minion have some non-programmatic decisions here. Let's look at what Qvist is doing. He is going for counterfeit thinning into a highway-based deck which abuses the ironworks interaction, uses Wandering minstrel to grease it along, and knocks some minions to help it reload. Since treasures aren't really key cards, this all actually comes together quite nicely. And militia fits more or less quite well in this game plan, much more so than yours. I think that it is a little worse than the wharf-based play, but you know, it is much more creative, in my view, and I am not sure that it's worse. And most important, Qvist is playing it pretty well tactically, which in such games covers for strategic shortcomings rather a lot - and I don't think the strategic gap is actually all *that* great here.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2013, 04:04:26 pm »
+1

If we play a 5-card-kingdom with Village, Smithy, Market, Develop & Spy, I would build an engine.
Only those 5?
I'll take you up on that.

AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2013, 04:23:00 pm »
0

Need to rewatch the rematch video before commenting further, but perhaps I need to rethink a few things.

That video is EPIC.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2013, 01:22:29 pm »
+1

Incidentally, I am not totally convinced that the engine in that game with Stef is better than Big Money - regardless, I think both of us agree that it should be fairly close. Also, develop certainly isn't the worst trasher there, as it gives you multiple components, which helps the engine a lot. Something like trade route would, I think, make it clear. Also possibly salvager or remodel. Remake/Steward/Chapel/Ambassador/Doctor should really swing you to engine. Anyway, final verdict, it's pretty close.

Robz888

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2013, 05:03:00 pm »
0

If we play a 5-card-kingdom with Village, Smithy, Market, Develop & Spy, I would build an engine.
Only those 5?
I'll take you up on that.



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