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AdamH

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Hoping to get some discussion
« on: May 28, 2013, 10:47:42 am »
+1

I have an example game of this, which is really where most of the discussion can probably go, but this kind of thing has happened in several IRL games recently. My problem comes from Village/Terminal Draw engines with little or no trashing available.

The sitch: Village, +Buy, Terminal Draw available, but only weak trashing, if any. It sounds a lot like the "first game engine" we're familiar with. I got good at building that engine and I won lots of games building similar engines because I got a good feel for what they feel like and how the pieces work together.

But recently I find myself losing games because the engine never takes off. I sit around buying one card per turn while my opponent has 4 Provinces before I hit $8 the first time. Of course I notice that I see all 5 of my villages at the top of my shuffle, dooming my next 2-3 hands to have 3 terminals each, which is certainly possible with even a perfectly constructed deck, but you make your own shuffle luck. I refuse to believe that any game I lose is not without any fault of my own. I could have built the deck better. I could have prioritized differently; the last (at least) 4 games I've played like this I've lost handily. There has to be room for me to get better at this.

I will do my best to find games to post here, but a lot of my play recently has been IRL (if only Goko would implement automatch). All I have is the video link I'll post at the end of this. There is some discussion at the end on this topic, but Qvist and I never agreed on what to do here, and after re-watching and thinking about it for a while, I can't find a reason to tell the better player he's right and accept that I lost this game for myself.

Can someone smack me in the face and tell me to get over myself? A better player took a different strategy and beat me soundly, and I still think my plan was better and I got unlucky. Am I really losing it? This is beginning to get really frustrating for me.

Anyways, here's the video link. Between the discussion on the video and my YouTube comment my stance should be clear on exactly what is best here.

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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 11:51:21 am »
0

Not to try and take anything away from your self-flagellation, but something to consider -- When I play with my friend's Dominion set, I have to be overly cautious with exactly how I shuffle. If I try to be lazy and just do a couple side-shuffles, his cards tend to clump due to uneven wear; the base set Coppers are WAY more worn out than the Ruins, for instance.
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AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 11:57:37 am »
0

This is most definitely the case with my cards (well, card protectors). I will do this.
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qmech

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 02:29:23 pm »
0

This is most definitely the case with my cards (well, card protectors). I will do this.

Wait, sleeves get just as horrible and sticky as cards?
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dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 04:12:39 pm »
0

I can't be bothered to listen to the video very much, but I don't see too much of a problem with the posted game. I think Counterfeit was correct here, but Qvist's Minions were definitely not the right call, and I think he could have executed his strategy better. You wanted a couple more Highways.

Because if you think about it, with some trashing from Counterfeit, you won't need 7 Wharves for drawing power, and some of those could have been Highways instead, and the deck could have been much faster. My impression is that a board like this shouldn't last more than 14 turns given all of the killer combos.

Sometimes these engines aren't as perfect as they seem to be, but if most of the problems that you're having are to do with IRL games, I can only parrot Drab and suggest that you shuffle better.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 04:14:51 pm by dondon151 »
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AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 04:36:02 pm »
0

Game log, for reference: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130522/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1369270540374.txt

I was hoping for a little more insight into how to build these engines rather than my IRL shuffling technique. This game contains an example of what I'm talking about: T10 I start off a fresh shuffle and use Wandering Winders to cycle almost completely through my deck, leaving 3 Wharves at the bottom of my shuffle with no villages left on T11. The exact same thing happens on T12 leaving me with a dud T13 hand, and more importantly, decreasing the number of Wharves I'm able to get in play each turn. It looks to me like shuffle luck, but this happens to me so much that I have to think there's some way I can build my engine better to mitigate this. I didn't post in the "Help!" forum to whine about my shuffle luck, I want to identify weaknesses in my game and improve them.

To be clear, I'm experiencing this problem IRL most of the time because that's where I'm playing most of my games now. I'm just mentioning that because I can't post game logs of IRL games, and I figured I'd be asked for examples.

I actually think a single late-game Minion really helped Qvist's deck, since he could discard green cards and re-draw if necessary. Maybe another Highway or Wharf might have been better, but I don't think it was a misplay at all.

If you think a deck that buys Highways instead of Wharves would be faster, then I'm curious to how you would build that deck on this board. My plan was to set up a WW/Wharf draw engine that should be able to reliably get 2/3 Wharves in play each turn, being my source of buys. Once this is up and running, get Highways later. I thought this would be more effective and more reliable, and I thought it should have had 2 Highways bought on T10, 4 more on T11, and massive megaturn ending on piles on T12 with 3 Wharves in play on each of those turns. I still don't understand what was ill-conceived about this plan, but it clearly didn't work.
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SCSN

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2013, 05:29:30 pm »
0

Quote
and use Wandering Winders

They are called Wandering Minstrels! At first I thought it was some sort of joke/homage to WW, but you use it casually and dead-serious throughout the whole video, and now even here, so I suspect you genuinely do not know :)

Quote
If you think a deck that buys Highways instead of Wharves would be faster, then I'm curious to how you would build that deck on this board. My plan was to set up a WW/Wharf draw engine that should be able to reliably get 2/3 Wharves in play each turn, being my source of buys. Once this is up and running, get Highways later. I thought this would be more effective and more reliable, and I thought it should have had 2 Highways bought on T10, 4 more on T11, and massive megaturn ending on piles on T12 with 3 Wharves in play on each of those turns. I still don't understand what was ill-conceived about this plan, but it clearly didn't work.

I think the problem with this is that you invest most of the game in carddraw, without really having anything worth drawing. The purpose of your Wharves should be to connect your Ironworks and Highways, not to hopefully draw on T10 your entire collection of Coppers and Estates. Also, Wandering Minstrel is absolutely terrible w.r.t. Wharves compared to Fishing Village, and your buying spree really suggested to me that you had alot of the latter :) Wandering Minstrel is the worst village to have when you have alot of terminals, as by discarding treasure and green, it actively arranges terminal collision. You can use this to your advantage, of course, as its super-fast cycling ensures that you see your terminals more often, which means that you need to buy less of them than usual to play them at the same frequency, but that is not exactly what you did ;)

Also, Qvist could have won the game on T16 by playing Ironworks->Highway, Ironworks->Province, Buy Province, Buy Highway, Buy 2x Wharf.
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AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2013, 06:09:38 pm »
+1

Quote
and use Wandering Winders

They are called Wandering Minstrels! At first I thought it was some sort of joke/homage to WW, but you use it casually and dead-serious throughout the whole video, and now even here, so I suspect you genuinely do not know :)

I am aware, it's a joke/homage to WW. Do you get it? :P

Wandering Minstrel is absolutely terrible w.r.t. Wharves compared to Fishing Village [...] Wandering Minstrel is the worst village to have when you have alot of terminals, as by discarding treasure and green, it actively arranges terminal collision...

...You're being serious?!

I mean, Fishing Village is best with Wharf for-sure-sies, but I am quite certain that WW is second best by a lot. I thought the whole point of WW's ability is to pair your Villages with drawing cards... as long as your terminals draw cards.
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SCSN

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2013, 06:35:35 pm »
0

Wandering Minstrel is absolutely terrible w.r.t. Wharves compared to Fishing Village [...] Wandering Minstrel is the worst village to have when you have alot of terminals, as by discarding treasure and green, it actively arranges terminal collision...

...You're being serious?!

I mean, Fishing Village is best with Wharf for-sure-sies, but I am quite certain that WW is second best by a lot. I thought the whole point of WW's ability is to pair your Villages with drawing cards... as long as your terminals draw cards.

I am dead-serious, but I'm not saying it's bad with Wharf, I'm saying it's bad when you buy as many Wharves as you usually would, which is a big difference.

WM is good at sifting to your terminals, which means that you need less of them in your deck to play them at the usual frequency, thus making it a very strong village. If you buy the same amount of terminals as you would with a vanilla village, however, it can easily increase the average number of terminals/hand beyond the amount that you can play. With a normal village you cycle way slower, so you have more actions to spend per shuffle because you get a "free" action at the start of each turn.
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AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2013, 07:01:39 pm »
0

OK, So WW for your village means you can get by with less terminals. Usually in a Wharf deck I think about how many Wharves I want to have in play each turn, though. So I'm struggling to see how this concept applies to the use of Wharf. Add in also that besides Counterfeit, Wharf is your source of +Buy to pair with Highway. If Counterfeit is going to be involved in this deck, I'm still not clear on how it's best used, particularly to be faster than getting Wharves.

I tested some stuff out playing against a bot. None of the bots bought Militias, which skews things a bit, but I can't think of any times in the actual game where I actually got hurt by a Militia. This may skew things a touch.

Trying to emulate my in-game strategy:

Open Militia/Silver
Get Ironworks on first reshuffle, get Wharves on $5 up to 6 of them, WW on $4 buys/gains, and try to get another Silver at some point.
At this point, get Highways until you can pile the game on a win (usually have 6 or them by this point and the ability to Ironworks/buy lots of Provinces here)

This ended the game on turn 13 or 14

Incorporating Ironworks/Highway interaction, I do this:

Open Militia/Silver
Get Ironworks on first reshuffle, on $5 Buys/gains, get Highway, Wharf, Highway, then Wharves up to 6 of them
On $4 buys/gains, get WW (maybe get some of these over Wharves if I get terminal heavy, but that hasn't come up)
Get Silver on $3, but not necessary.
After I have 6 Wharves, get several more highways quickly until you have like 5 or 6 of them, then devour Provinces.

This ended the game on turn 11 or 12.

I guess that's a benchmark? The deck felt roughly the same each time I played it, but it was obvs. faster with IW/Highway shenanigannery. None of these felt like when I played this game on the video.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 07:09:08 pm »
0

I toss in my vote that WM should be good with Wharves.
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DG

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 07:20:04 pm »
0

In your game with Qvist you buy extra silvers and they probably just clogged up your deck and/or were discarded by minstrels. It's strange how often those extra silvers are unproductive. Anyway wandering minstrels often under perform in strategies where you are using treasures for coin so that's a good reason to prefer the highway route.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 07:24:09 pm by DG »
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SCSN

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 07:27:17 pm »
0

Quote
Usually in a Wharf deck I think about how many Wharves I want to have in play each turn, though. So I'm struggling to see how this concept applies to the use of Wharf.

It means that you need more WM's/Wharf than you would need ordinary villages/Wharf, unless you are (close to) drawing your whole deck.

Quote
Incorporating Ironworks/Highway interaction, I do this:

Sounds pretty good, though I'm unsure whether Highway or Wharf should be your first $5 (I'm leaning towards Wharf). In any case, I'd make sure never to have more Wharves than Highways past the early game, since I expect the latter to get contested heavily (which the bot apparently doesn't do if you can still get 6 Highways that late in the game), and they are absolute key to winning, in the sense that choosing between 6 Highways and 4 Wharves and 4 Wharves and 6 Highways, I'd pick the latter all day. I also think you want a little more than just one Ironworks, as Highway-Ironworks let's you gain $5 cards (and in the end Provinces) quicker than playing a bit more Copper and Silver from the draws of your Wharves.
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dudeabides

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 07:30:20 pm »
0

To weight in on the "Are WM and Wharf good together?" question, I say yes. 
Silly evidence here: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130528/log.50d0ac56e4b0c5e1e73b1608.1369782055867.txt

I think that getting Counterfeit with first $5, as Qvist did, is the critical thing here to clear out Coppers.  Militia doesn't seem to be that effective here.

I may have an irrational affinity for Scrying Pools, but I think I open Silver/Ironworks, planning to get Potion with 1st Ironworks (hoping I have $4 in hand when I do that), going for Counterfeit on 1st $5, Highway on 2nd $5.  Second Ironworks if I hit $4 again.  Spam WMs with Ironworks if no Highway in play, and Highways if a Highway is in play.  This might be too slow.
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dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 09:42:35 pm »
0

The Scrying Pool option is definitely a gutsy move here, and I think that it will be slow for two reasons: one is that you're not opening with Potion, and the other is that your Treasure trasher is itself a Treasure, so there's the potential for conflicting interests when your SP reveals a Counterfeit.

While I do agree that Militia is not terribly strong here, I don't think that it's wise to ignore it and open with Ironworks instead. An IW opening leaves you at much higher risk to not hit $5 at all, and it would be even worse if your opponent's Militia falls on your $5 hand. With a Militia opening, you have a ~1/6 chance to hit $5 twice as a partial safeguard against an opponent's opening Militia.

On the first reshuffle, I would buy Counterfeit/IW with $5+/$4 and Counterfeit/Silver with $5+/$3. My next $5 should be a Wharf. All future $4s should be WM. I wouldn't get a second IW until the deck can successfully link Highway, Wharf, and IW. I think that I would get 2 Wharves before getting Highways, then balance Wharf, WM, and Highway gains as the deck sees fit.

Anyway, to answer AdamH's question, here's a game that I dug up which is similar in some ways to your game: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20130124-210412-08e7ae5a.html
With trashing in the kingdom, you don't really need that many Wharves. Remake is obviously much better than Counterfeit, but the principle still holds.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2013, 02:39:20 am »
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Anyways, here's the video link. Between the discussion on the video and my YouTube comment my stance should be clear on exactly what is best here.



You're asking two seperate questions. The first one, why you keep losing on similar semi-optimal engine boards, and the second one, why you lost in this specific game.

The first is the interesting one, but it needs more than this very example, because here - and now we're at question two - you just played a worse strategy and also overlooked (you said it yourself) the Highway/Ironworks synergy (which is extremely important here).

But even without, on this board I think it's important to focus more on Highways, and of course get an early Counterfeit. I mean, even without Villages you ususally want some Highways in Wharf decks. Highways with all those buys will help you put together your engine way faster, you don't need extra Silvers for buying power, and you also have some mild megaturn potential for the endgame (probably negligible on this board). With Ironworks it's a nobrainer.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 02:49:11 am by kn1tt3r »
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AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2013, 07:59:33 am »
0

Thanks for all the discussion so far. It's nice to hear things from smart people.

Maybe I'm just missing something here, but I've even tried playing a couple of games with buying a Counterfeit as my first $5 card. I haven't been able to get anything going nearly as fast as when I ignore it. Nothing before turn 14, and it feels like the trashing is just too slow. I'm still very skeptical of how this can work. Here's what I've been doing:

Open Militia/Silver
Get Ironworks first reshuffle
$5 buys/gains go Counterfeit, Highway, Wharf, Highway, then Wharves up to 4 (I still think if you can get 6 then you should), then more Highways. With competition I guess you could prioritize Highways, but this deck didn't seem to do anything useful without more Wharves.
$4 buys/gains go to WWs
$3 go to Silvers, I guess.

Seems like a second Ironworks might be helpful here, but I haven't tried that out.

I just think Counterfeit is too slow as trashing here since there is such draw/sifting present. I guess I'm just playing it wrong?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2013, 12:36:37 pm »
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I think I'd take Wharf before Highway (maybe even before Counterfeit) but focus more on Highways. Shouldn't need that much draw if you are reading and just buying cantrips.
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dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2013, 12:49:23 pm »
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You should take a couple of Wharves before Highways, and you only need enough Wharves to draw out your deck.

It could be that Counterfeit is a little slow, but I've had bad experiences relying on Wharf for draw consistency in games without trashing.
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2013, 01:14:54 pm »
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The first $5 should be Wharf, no question. After that I'd go Highway, Highway, then Wharfs and Highways.

Reasoning: the Wharf is key, but Highways are really important for making the Ironworks able to gain Highways/Wharfs and making Wharf's +Buy more useful.

Counterfeit and WM play a similar role in this setup, because WM helps connect action cards and Counterfeit provides slight deck thinning to connect actions. I lean towards WM rather than Counterfeit simply because Highway is such a huge card here and the Wharves/Ironworks covers the +gain. I'm willing to be persuaded on this, but the more I think about it the more I think Counterfeit is just too slow here, plus it risks losing the Highway split.
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DG

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2013, 01:23:38 pm »
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As you move from the mid game to the end game you might see the game turning on buys/gains for a 3 pile finish. It's highly likely in this kingdom. In this case you would need to spot what might be your 'penultimate' turn and stock up on buys and gains, looking to leave piles too big for your opponent but within your reach. This would be a wharf heavy strategy and might need only a couple of highways.

If you look on the old council room records you'll see that the win rate without provinces for top players is very high. It's because they managed 3 pile ending so much better than the average isotropic players.
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Qvist

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2013, 04:39:58 am »
+1

Ok, my 2 cents after rewatching the game.

We both played suboptimally. I tried to build a deck that would end up in being as much Highways as possible, as few Coppers as possible (of course 0 is best) with the help of Counterfeit, 3 Estates (as I can't trash them), 1 Militia to slow Adam down, 1-2 Minions to be able to play all those cantrip Highways even after being hit with Militia, 1 Ironworks early and in the end game more of them (and some WMs to play multiples of them for Provinces). I was struggling and not sure if this would work, so I added Wharf mainly for the buy and some countering against Militia.

I ignored the Wharf engine, because it meant that I need WMs and there's really no time for that as Highways, Wharves and WMs would be 3 piles to be gone before I get everything setup. I think this strategy could have easily worked out if I would have gotten 2! Counterfeits before any Highway. Why? I get an additional buy for the Highways and get a thin deck much faster. I think that could work pretty well. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now to Adam. Beside the fact that he totally missed Ironworks/Highway, some of you brought up the most important fact. You were drawing your whole deck for what? For Coppers and a couple of Silvers? That's not worth it. You either want Highways way earlier to get a much better economy (as the Wharves get you basically at least 2 buys per turn guaranteed and then the Highway is basically at least a Grand Market (without the buy) or you want just more money (with Hoard or possibly just Gold) which is probably too slow on the board and makes your engine less reliable. SCSN has brought up a good point that you want more WMs than a normal village as they help you cycling, but I still think getting like 6 Wharves as Adam did is the right move.

I still think that Minion/Highway/Counterfeit is much better than Wharf/WM/Highway, but I would be happy to try that out again.

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2013, 07:28:20 am »
+3

Some simulator results:

The Wandering Minstrel/Highway/Wharf engine is super strong and quite fast (13 turns to 4 Provinces). Militia will just slow it down. Counterfeit is good if you open $5/$2, but too slow when opening $4/$3

Here's the game plan which gave the best results:
Open Ironworks/Silver (or Counterfeit/-)
Get 2 Wharves asap, then start hammering the Highways. Once you have 5 Highways alternate between Highway and Wharf.
Get Wandering Minstrels if you have more Wharves than Villages
Aim for 1 or 2 megaturns with 5 or more Highways played.
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philosophyguy

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2013, 10:19:06 am »
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Geronimoo, does the optimal strategy involve a Militia at any point, or does the wasted gain slow down the engine too much?
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Geronimoo

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2013, 10:43:02 am »
0

Geronimoo, does the optimal strategy involve a Militia at any point, or does the wasted gain slow down the engine too much?
I tried injecting a Militia at different points in the game, but they always made the win rate drop.
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philosophyguy

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2013, 10:47:07 am »
0

Geronimoo, does the optimal strategy involve a Militia at any point, or does the wasted gain slow down the engine too much?
I tried injecting a Militia at different points in the game, but they always made the win rate drop.

I find that amazing. WM sifting + Wharf is strong enough to outrace Militia even on a board when $5s are key. This game keeps surprising me!
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dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2013, 11:05:05 am »
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Militia would only be helpful on turns 3-4. It tends to not do much against Durations and drawing engines.

I at least would still open Militia, because you're pretty screwed if you don't hit $5.
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2013, 04:54:55 pm »
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I've tried this a few more times against bots. A few things I've noticed:

Bots will pretty much always go for a minion stack. Getting hit with a minion to deny a $5 hand really hurts. It's a little weird to think that militia is skippable but I think that's only because ironworks is so good here.

I still need to try tweaking some stuff here, but so far I've had much more success with prioritizing wharves than highways...
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2013, 01:27:52 pm »
+1

Well, I am not going to talk about the individual games, because I don't really have the time to go through and watch & analyze them all right now. But about your general question: Just +cards, +actions, and +buy don't make the engine strong enough to win, usually, even if they're good versions. Maybe exceptional versions will occasionally have it happen, but more often you either need: reasonably strong trashing, a decent attack, some way to go crazy in the end (a la a bunch of bridges just letting you buy *everything*), or reasonably good alt-VP as well.

What is good enough, yes, depends on the kingdom. Things like vault+embassy really skew to BM, lots of other stuff skews to engine. How good does the alt-VP need to be? Generally, Vineyards and colonies almost always are enough, fairgrounds usually, gardens and SR are middle of the road, others don't help tons but do a tiny bit.

Hope that was helpful.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 05:51:39 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2013, 03:11:13 pm »
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OK then, I understand the concept you're talking about, perhaps it's possible that I'm playing engines that are too weak, but if my opponent is able to get the engine to function and I'm not, it makes me wonder about the way I put it together as opposed to whether or not it's actually viable.

Some examples from the Recommended Kingdoms page



Game A: Moat, Fortune Teller, Bridge, Moneylender, Smithy, Throne Room, Festival, Jester, Vault, Fairgrounds (Game 8 of the DS 2012 Championships)

Jester is a junker, and Moneylender the only trashing, with Fortune Teller/Jester and no way to trash curses. Draw is weak as well with Smithy being best, and Festival being the only village (which doesn't draw). Throne Room helps, and I have to believe an engine here beats BM+Smithy. Do you go for it? How do you build it? What are you priorities?



Game B: Courtyard, Minion, Steward, Mining Village, Conspirator, Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Council Room, Mine, Militia (The first game on the page, for GenCon 2012, a Base/Intrigue set)

Engine here is obvious, and you even have strong trashing with Steward, plus lots of cool stuff to go with it. Council Room is the only +Buy though, so how do you build this engine? Again, what are your priorities?



Game C: Embargo, University, Scrying Pool, Worker's Village, Remodel, Wharf, Rabble, Grand Market, Forge, Peddler -- with Colonies (Game 5 of the DS 2011 Championships)

Remodel for trashing, but that doesn't decrease your deck size. Forge works for that, but in order to use it effectively you have to draw first, then Forge. Lots of power here, and boy did I get killed on this board by a guy who bought no Wharves, but Rabbles instead. You wouldn't believe how many turns I took before I hit $5 the first time, and the game was over by that point. Again, how do you build this?
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dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2013, 05:34:59 pm »
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Game A: Moneylender is a good enough trasher. WW exaggerates a bit when he says that "reasonably strong trashing" is needed for this kind of engine. Even bad trashers can be reasonably strong depending on the support. Anyway, Fairgrounds is an engine indicator. How to go around building it is fairly straightforward: Smithy or TR at $4 (with ~2 Bridges along the way), Festival at $5+, maybe a Jester. Pray that you don't hit $3 or less; if you do, it may be worth getting a Moat. If your opponent goes for a money strategy, both Fortune Teller and Jester are solid attacks.

Game B: I remember this one! The guy playing Courtyard-BM actually won, but I think a good engine has a slight advantage. Even with the CR-Militia synergy, Courtyard-BM can still scrape together money, which is why the engine has problems. You'd want to trash down with Steward and make sure that you can hit $8 before getting a Council Room. And you probably don't want more than one Council Room. I opened Steward/Militia, but I can even see an argument for Steward/MV. I oddly didn't get any Minions here, and I suspect that they're probably not that bad, but I don't know how helpful they would be. I think in this kind of deck, you would want to Minion for discard after some CR plays, then play a Militia to knock out another card. I was not as good back then.

Game C: You don't need to trash out your entire deck for these engines to work. The question here is whether to open with Potion or Remodel. I think I would take Remodel. A Potion could be useful later on, but I would really want to get a little bit of WV/Wharf going and then slam down on the Peddlers. This is a bit of a reactive board because Embargo can discourage an opponent from early Potion cards, but it can also sort of force you into Potion cards if WV, Wharf, or Peddler are blocked.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 05:37:06 pm by dondon151 »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2013, 05:36:37 pm »
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Game A: Moneylender is a good enough trasher. WW exaggerates a bit when he says that "reasonably strong trashing" is needed for this kind of engine.
Maybe you missed the word 'or'?

dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2013, 05:38:37 pm »
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That sort of statement could be easily misconstrued by other people. Looking at AdamH's post, he was doubting that Moneylender and Remodel were sufficient in the posted kingdoms.
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2013, 05:52:14 pm »
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That sort of statement could be easily misconstrued by other people. Looking at AdamH's post, he was doubting that Moneylender and Remodel were sufficient in the posted kingdoms.
Sure, if you read it really really fast and just skip over those key words.

Is it better now?

dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2013, 06:09:47 pm »
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Man this is a stupid-as-hell argument.

Just +cards, +actions, and +buy don't make the engine strong enough to win, usually, even if they're good versions. Maybe exceptional versions will occasionally have it happen, but more often you either need: reasonably strong trashing,

If you have +cards, +actions, and +buy (which is your assumption), even a crappy trasher like Develop is good enough. This still proves my point.
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2013, 06:27:35 pm »
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Man this is a stupid-as-hell argument.

Just +cards, +actions, and +buy don't make the engine strong enough to win, usually, even if they're good versions. Maybe exceptional versions will occasionally have it happen, but more often you either need: reasonably strong trashing,

If you have +cards, +actions, and +buy (which is your assumption), even a crappy trasher like Develop is good enough. This still proves my point.
If it were true, it would. But it's not true. Which was my point.

Edit: of course, you can disagree with my point, but it's not a misconstruing thing.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 06:41:28 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2013, 07:25:22 pm »
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Whoa. Thanks for your discussion, guys. Throughout this entire thread people have had different opinions on everything and I want to hear them all. We're all good at the game (except for maybe me).

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but when it comes to trashing, I classify Strong Trashers as cards that can remove two "bad cards" from your deck with one play. Weak trashers cannot. A "bad card" is a card you don't want in your deck, which can be Copper, Estate, Curse, Ruins, but even Silver and terminals can fit this description under the right circumstances.

The presence of strong trashing and weak trashing will of course shape how powerful a draw engine will be. I find that sometimes weak trashing is enough to help your stuff connect, but sometimes it isn't.

The three kingdoms I posted, when I assessed them for the first time, I saw draw engine because I thought the components were there and they were strong enough. If BM is better then it's better, but then I need to adjust the way I see things.

...if the engine is better and I still lose to BM (or to another engine player) then I need to evaluate how I'm building the engine, which I've identified as a relative weakness in my game. The more opinions I hear, whether the same or different, the more I can potentially learn.

Of course, only I can decide how I view kingdoms and how I play the game.

dondon - It's not too difficult for me to see what I want my deck to look like, and of course from a high level I agree with you on most accounts (except for Game C where I still don't have a feel for what you really want, but Embargo and Potion cards will do that to you). My weakness (and what I could use more focus on) is how to build them. Opening cards are a start, but your suggestions for Game A were very helpful.

In Game A, you talk about getting a Bridge or two, or you talk about "maybe a Jester". When? How do you know it's the right move? The only thing I can come up with is how many terminals you have vs. how many Festivals you have, but I feel like you can never afford the extra terminals there.

In Game C, you're getting a decent amount of gains with your $4 Remodel-gains and only 1 Silver to start. Do you get more Silvers to try and get more $5 hands? I see how WV fits in but how do you prioritize getting Wharves and the cards you have to buy in order to get Wharves?

Wandering Minstrel Wandering Winder (oh I crack myself up), thanks for the input you're willing to give. I appreciate it [/fanboy]
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dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2013, 09:30:16 pm »
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Well it has been awhile since I've played Dominion, so I am understandably rusty.

In Game A, you talk about getting a Bridge or two, or you talk about "maybe a Jester". When? How do you know it's the right move? The only thing I can come up with is how many terminals you have vs. how many Festivals you have, but I feel like you can never afford the extra terminals there.

Jester can slow down your opponent and/or help yourself build your deck faster, so it's probably not totally ignorable. But you also probably don't want more than 2 terminals in a deck without Festivals or TRs. If you open Moneylender, your next $4 should be a Bridge. So if I get $5/$4 on the reshuffle, I would get Festival/Bridge. I think I wouldn't get a Jester until I had 2 Festivals and some TR draw going.

In Game C, you're getting a decent amount of gains with your $4 Remodel-gains and only 1 Silver to start. Do you get more Silvers to try and get more $5 hands? I see how WV fits in but how do you prioritize getting Wharves and the cards you have to buy in order to get Wharves?

You have a fair point. However, I don't think that the extra WV gains from Remodel can be passed up, since they are so important to help winning the Peddler split. If you open with Remodel, you're taking the gamble that in the worst case scenario, you might not hit $5 for a Wharf for awhile. But in most circumstances, you will hit $5 after the second reshuffle at the latest, because you've been trashing Estates (and you've picked up a Silver or two). You might have gotten unlucky in that one game you had where your opponent's Rabble probably skipped all of your good cards.
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2013, 10:07:33 pm »
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These kingdoms from Donald X are particularly difficult and are even more complicated multiplayer. They need to be reactive towards your opponent's play and there enough options that you can't predict everything. Some subtle interactions can catch you out. Draws can push you into different strategies. There might be key cards or not. There's a counter to everything.

With that in mind I'm hesitant to give you firm advice other than to say that you can run a very thin remodel deck in game C, gaining worker's villages and embargoes. Whether it's better than the alternatives or if you should stick to that with unusual draws, well I wouldn't want to say.
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2013, 05:55:16 am »
+3

If we play a 5-card-kingdom with Village, Smithy, Market, Develop & Spy, I would build an engine.
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2013, 06:34:43 pm »
+1

If we play a 5-card-kingdom with Village, Smithy, Market, Develop & Spy, I would build an engine.
Only those 5?
I'll take you up on that.

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2013, 07:51:33 pm »
+2

If we play a 5-card-kingdom with Village, Smithy, Market, Develop & Spy, I would build an engine.
Only those 5?
I'll take you up on that.
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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2013, 09:46:51 pm »
+5

Okay, watched your video, and I have some thoughts.

The first thing is that in these kinds of games, strategy is of course important, but you absolutely must have very keen tactical senses and adjust your strategy to fit what the game and your opponent are throwing out to you. You can't just play in a vacuum, you can't play like a simulator, and you certainly can't play like a bot (Bots are tactically DREADFUL).

So the one from the video. Everything is so strong here! But okay, potion costs are right out, being relatively slow. Minion goes, too, as well, a lot of the stuff works decently well (counterfeit, WM, highway), but nothing is *that* great, and something like wharf is just strong anyway. I would actually discount militia relatively early, too. Of the strategies that are left, your 4s and/or terminals will be at premiums, and the discard attack... well it always hurts, but not THAT much, particularly with the wharves flying. So then you have Wharf/Hoard/Counterfeit money. This has got to be a very good strategy, though tricky to time right. In any case, I think this is probably the second-best thing, and it will win on most boards, but here it's got to just be a fair bit too slow.
We want to go IW/WM/Highway/Wharf. You can actually possibly pull such a deck off without wharf. Well, probably - and without any card draw, really. Anyway, if wharf is here, it will help. First thing is to get your drawing up, so you are playing your key cards most every turn. Wharf helps a good bit here, especially early, but the most important card is actually Wandering Minstrel - and this is why you want to open IW. After a little while - probably some time around 2 wharves, but you have to see what your deck gives you - if you get 2 wharves before turn 5-6, you aren't there yet, but if you get to turn 8-9 and only have one, you can probably move on - you will be playing most of your key cards every turn. Sometime around here, you want to start going bigger, and this means at least the first highway. This will let you grab more key 5-costs with your ironworks, and this is critical. Also, highways will work with the WM pretty well, so that you can weave all your actions in the right order to maximize critical card playing. Now, after the first highway, maybe you go back for more wharves, if you need more draw, or maybe you keep pounding highways. Somewhere around this point, you want to start building more ironworks, too. And this is the part of the game where things get tricky, because all this stuff, you also have to maintain enough WMs to play everything, and wharves to draw things. Also wharves' buys can start to be important. Eventually, you want to make sure you have at least 4 highways, so that you can IW province. You also probably want to have lots of WM to be able to hammer lots of provinces on the same turn. But the biggest point is that all of the last several sentences is probably total crap - the game won't progress this far and you'll be staring down three pile endings and have to navigate very carefully to get the right mix of points and components to not lose immediately to a 3 pile and not get too far behind in deck quality without being able to 3-pile back to win.

The other 3:

Game A: Throne Room definitely counts as a village! This game is probably a bit tricky, because your engine will take a *long* time to get going, but on the other hand, it's going to be a bit difficult for an opponent to finish things out of not-an-engine, and Fairgrounds is sitting there as another pile of provinces. A lesser card (even say gardens) would simply not work here, I don't think, and you will be pulled very strongly to BM in such a case, with vault as a card with pretty good longevity. As is though, there is enough here. You want to thin out first with moneylender, and then start building your engine. Festivals, some moats if the time is right, a jester at some point (this REALLY depends on your opponent and how poach-able their deck is). Mainly festivals and smithies, and at some point lots of throne rooms and bridges, but this largely not until after you have a decent engine, or are right on the cusp of it. Yeah, fortune teller/Jester at some point to give them curses helps out a lot too, but you have to watch a little for 3 pile endings, and maybe not play jester at some point. Well, anyway, once you are good and overbuilt, power through the fairgrounds, and then at the end, make sure you are going to get 15 uniques and probably you are ending the game right when you pull ahead. Unless of course, it's a mirror, in which case you start similarly, and then absolutely react and grab green at weird points, and everything goes to weird places and jester pulls, because 3 piles probably run and you have to be very very tactical

Game B: One steward and a little bit of money into a minion/conspirator engine. Almost any other +buy would make it, but council room is just so not good for you, I suspect it will be better to just go green faster. Eh, I dunno, maybe it works out anyway by a tiny little bit, but I doubt it. This is actually the most straightforward of all the sets, I think.

Game C: You can't really just make a plan here - embargo just does crazy things to most of the strategies. Well, buy an embargo if they overcommit. But actually, if I think about it a little more, it's probably just a WV/Wharf engine. Remodel? Maybe. Probably one, early. If they embargo... well, what are they going to embargo? Peddlers? It's no big deal - one forge cleans up all the curses, and you want it anyway. I guess they can embargo wharf, that hurts you. But you can remodel around it at some point, and WVs buy peddlers anyway. The thing with embargo is that it takes a good chunk of time to get down and costs a fair amount of opportunity. The mirror here is sorta weird - you REALLY want those peddlers, and wharf is by far the best thing here for that, but WV is very good too. Actually, the engine with a little money just buys provinces, too, anyway, and that isn't so bad, especially if they are spending lots of time to work extra-hard to stop your plan A. The biggest point here, on any strategy, is just to have a plan B, so that if they over-work to stop your plan A, you can slide into B pretty easily, and your cost from having to switch is less than theirs from stopping doing an active plan of their own to spend so much effort to stop you.

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2013, 09:52:34 pm »
+2

Thanks for putting your time into this, WW. Fyi, we replayed this game a while ago and the result was quite ... let's say interesting.
I'm looking forward to heare your thoughts. Video should be up tomorrow.

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2013, 02:36:55 pm »
0



Now I'm looking forward to get more comments and discussion.

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2013, 03:10:38 am »
+2

These are comments to both of you:

First game:
The turn 3 militia does the damage! If you can guarantee it hits denies the only 5-coin hand from turn 3-4 every game, it is probably worth it. Or, maybe just maybe worth it. Regardless, it makes it at least very playable - the problem is that this won't happen *that* often (what, 40% of the time or something?), and the potential advantage of when it hits isn't as big as the potential advantage the other way when it doesn't.

Adam goes Highway before Wharf. This has bot to be a pretty big mistake. Just in general in engine-building, you build the engine up before looking for economic effects. Of course, this lets you IW into 5s, which is quite nice, BUT A) You need some draw (and better to get it early); B) You actually have to connect Highway and Ironworks in the same hand for this to work, and that's unlikely without draw; C) you want a pretty good number of WM anyway, so hitting this combo right out of the gate isn't so huge.

At 3:30, Qvist puts the cards back in what I believe to be a bad order. Generally, you want to get the Wandering Minstrel next, so that you can draw whatever it leaves behind with your Highway *this turn*.

At some point a little after this, Adam says "They would have told me to get a highway." Well, I don't know about others, but I (and at least some of them) would have said Wharf before this, and wharf here. You need the draw.

4:40 There is a key mistake from Adam. He puts the Ironworks below the Wandering Minstrel. So, why is that bad here? Well, it triggers that bad reshuffle you talk about a few seconds later, which led to the ironworksing of an estate just for draw, which isn't something you want to be doing. It also does very little for you now - the wandering minstrel isn't letting you have the actions you need to play more terminals or anything. And it makes your next turn worse. So this is a pretty clear and significant mis-step.

Then towards the end of the game, or maybe after it was over, Adam says "I don't think I could've done better at all." I assume you mean, apart from IW a duchy instead of estate? ;) I've covered what I think some of your other problems were, and I think you did get a little bit of bad luck. BUT probably the biggest thing from this is that mindset; this is a very complex and complicated board, and definitely one which is fluid and dynamic and in which you need to adjust to things as they are happening. On such a board, I would never feel confident that I have played perfectly. Indeed, I don't feel very confident that I've played perfect, really ever, and approximately perfect, not unless it is an extremely simple board where there just aren't many options at all, and one of them is clearly standing out - and is also highly simple. Now, there are some situations where I recognize I couldn't have won no matter what (I once played a dry sea hag board where my hag got hagged on the first three shuffles... I don't think I played it perfect, but it would be very hard to come back from that), but these are just very rare things. Stef has said this before, and while maybe I am not quite so far as him there, it's really not a good mindset to have. Okay, during and right after a game, though, it is quite natural to *feel* this way, just as long as some part of you rationally understands it's unlikely.

By the way, this actually does end up being pretty close, and I am not entirely convinced you needed to blow things up like that. Okay, probably you are just lost anyway, but even with these errors, it's really not *that* far off...

Incidentally, I suspect you would optimally like something like 2-3 silver, though it is a bit tricky to tell. Certainly you don't want to buy really any for more than $3.



Game 2:
Very early, Adam says "If you get an Ironworks, I would get an Ironworks." This strikes me as illogical. It seems to imply that you think in the IW vs militia cross-match-up, you would rather have ironworks (else you'd get militia here). But if that were the case, wouldn't you get ironworks against the opposing militia? The only thing I can think of is that you think that there is somehow a first player effect that means it is better for p2 to mirror because he needs to be able to hit 5 or something. Not only do I think that is wrong on this board (especially that makes you always want to mirror), and in general, but if this *were* the case, it seems to be a 1st-player advantage that would go against your comment that 'this is nice' - indeed, if you are being driven into mirroring, then it's not nice at all - you aren't taking 2nd player's only advantage of reacting/adapting, but you are following and being dictated to.

10:30 So here, IW would have been much better than militia. Okay, this is a rather dramatic example, and just because it happened here doesn't necessarily prove anything, BUT the point I want to make here is not so much that it is the $2 you aren't really needing here (though in this case they are indeed wasted), but the terminal in your deck, which dissuades you from going wharf (which I nevertheless would have done), and which puts you behind on WM to support these terminals as well. It's actually pretty significant.

Shortly after this, Adam makes a comment about not complaining about his militia sliding to turn 3 as P2. Well, of course it is possible that this can be a disadvantage, as early denial is more impactful than later denial, on the other hand, you are more likely here to hit something that he doesn't want to discard. So in a good number of ways, you have more potential to be damaging. Is that worth it? I have found that in general, this attack is about the closest you're going to find to average first-player advantage as you will get, so I don't think that's something particularly complainable-about anyhow.

At some point a bit after this, Qvist counterfeits a silver and ends up with $9 "I can't count, I thought I have 10(!)" Here, you could possibly have counterfeited counterfeit and the silver to get to 10, though to be fair this is not likely to be worth it.

13:50 You are going crazy on the wharves here, Adam. Look how many terminals you have for your villages. It's not so surprising that this causes you problems. I would make one, quite possibly two, of these highways instead.

15:30 I was going to say something here, then you worked it out and made the right play. Nice!

17:55 I'm pretty sure you want to ironworks something here before pitching the hand - it's not so likely that this will come back in the reshuffle meaningfully for you, and you basically just toss a nice card.

18:45 No! You have enough highways to ironworks a province here, and that is what you want to do! This will also shuffle you towards your next reshuffle faster, which is good in the short term, too. But most importantly, the game isn't going to last long enough for that wharf to be meaningful. Here is where you need some of that tactical vision to know that, even though the piles don't look all that low at the moment, you are both playing such explosive decks that they really could dwindle. Indeed, I am not sure, but I would at least have considered going heavy into duchies after IW the provinces. Well, would have had to see what was drawn and take stock.

20:30 Qvist 'should' have counterfeited the counterfeit here - it gives $1 more, which is irrelevant, but it also gives 1 more buy, which... is also irrelevant as he wins anyway, but could have been another duchy. Well, can't really fault a play that forces win on turn with total assurance.

Adam, you absolutely *can*  get lucky/unlucky twice in a row. However, you are just being outplayed here. You aren't building quite optimally. But mostly it is a tactical thing. You are making subtle but important play errors, and you are not adjusting to what is happening. Let's be frank here - this stuff ain't easy. It's what makes Stef really great, in large part. The tactics, the adjustments.

It's why you shouldn't really trust the simulator here - there are too many intricate play decisions it is going to get wrong, potentially with ironworks gains, play orders, and especially WM put-backs, as well as being able to adjust the buys based on how well you're deck is coming together and what the other player is doing, as well as how his deck is coming together. Timing in such games is really complicated, and it's not so easy to write a script for it.

Oh, also counterfeit and minion have some non-programmatic decisions here. Let's look at what Qvist is doing. He is going for counterfeit thinning into a highway-based deck which abuses the ironworks interaction, uses Wandering minstrel to grease it along, and knocks some minions to help it reload. Since treasures aren't really key cards, this all actually comes together quite nicely. And militia fits more or less quite well in this game plan, much more so than yours. I think that it is a little worse than the wharf-based play, but you know, it is much more creative, in my view, and I am not sure that it's worse. And most important, Qvist is playing it pretty well tactically, which in such games covers for strategic shortcomings rather a lot - and I don't think the strategic gap is actually all *that* great here.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2013, 04:04:26 pm »
+1

If we play a 5-card-kingdom with Village, Smithy, Market, Develop & Spy, I would build an engine.
Only those 5?
I'll take you up on that.

AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2013, 04:23:00 pm »
0

Need to rewatch the rematch video before commenting further, but perhaps I need to rethink a few things.

That video is EPIC.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2013, 01:22:29 pm »
+1

Incidentally, I am not totally convinced that the engine in that game with Stef is better than Big Money - regardless, I think both of us agree that it should be fairly close. Also, develop certainly isn't the worst trasher there, as it gives you multiple components, which helps the engine a lot. Something like trade route would, I think, make it clear. Also possibly salvager or remodel. Remake/Steward/Chapel/Ambassador/Doctor should really swing you to engine. Anyway, final verdict, it's pretty close.

Robz888

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2013, 05:03:00 pm »
0

If we play a 5-card-kingdom with Village, Smithy, Market, Develop & Spy, I would build an engine.
Only those 5?
I'll take you up on that.



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dondon151

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2013, 06:30:08 pm »
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I would say that Remodel still indicates engine. Salvager is limited by the lack of ways to accumulate value in the deck, though.
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AdamH

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Re: Hoping to get some discussion
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2013, 02:42:52 pm »
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OK, I've had a chance to rewatch and calm down a bit after all this. I have some takeaways.

The crazy Wharf/Highway board, the key to that board is adaptability. I go into that game with a set strategy and I don't deviate, and then I wonder why I lose when it doesn't go exactly my way. Of course none of my strategies involve trashing, which IMO is the thing that increases your adaptability the most (just ahead of draw). This is what I've learned from this exercise and I've identified that as another weakness in my game. I'm hoping to focus on this and improve it, and I believe that playing a lot with Guilds cards will help me because they emphasize tactics. But I want to play with Guilds cards a lot before I start reading about Guilds cards. So there's that. I'll have to discover more about myself before I can come back here.

Those other kingdoms, the Village+Draw engine ones. So are those the same thing? Is this all the same weakness in my game? If so (or even if not), how do I tell if this is one of those kingdoms? "one of those kingdoms" means one where you all describe it as "dynamic" "fluid" "interactive", things that reward smart tactical decisions and strategic flexibility. OK you can say all of them do, and I try not to formulate my whole plan at the beginning so I can do this, but when do I stop saying "the important things to do on this board are A, B, and C so these are the cards I open with and this is the direction I go" and when do I start saying "I don't know right now what the important things are, because it could be one of several things, so I need to prioritize flexibility, so that means I get these cards." ? These are abstract questions, yes, but any insight is appreciated.

Thanks again for all your help so far, I really do appreciate it.

The other thing: WW/Stef's 5-card challenge game. That was so much fun to watch and I was watching the BM+Smithy side. It would be really interesting to see the hand and commentary of the person playing the engine. I wonder if that's possible...
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