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[AdamH]

I have an example game of this, which is really where most of the discussion can probably go, but this kind of thing has happened in several IRL games recently. My problem comes from Village/Terminal Draw engines with little or no trashing available.

The sitch: Village, +Buy, Terminal Draw available, but only weak trashing, if any. It sounds a lot like the "first game engine" we're familiar with. I got good at building that engine and I won lots of games building similar engines because I got a good feel for what they feel like and how the pieces work together.

But recently I find myself losing games because the engine never takes off. I sit around buying one card per turn while my opponent has 4 Provinces before I hit $8 the first time. Of course I notice that I see all 5 of my villages at the top of my shuffle, dooming my next 2-3 hands to have 3 terminals each, which is certainly possible with even a perfectly constructed deck, but you make your own shuffle luck. I refuse to believe that any game I lose is not without any fault of my own. I could have built the deck better. I could have prioritized differently; the last (at least) 4 games I've played like this I've lost handily. There has to be room for me to get better at this.

I will do my best to find games to post here, but a lot of my play recently has been IRL (if only Goko would implement automatch). All I have is the video link I'll post at the end of this. There is some discussion at the end on this topic, but Qvist and I never agreed on what to do here, and after re-watching and thinking about it for a while, I can't find a reason to tell the better player he's right and accept that I lost this game for myself.

Can someone smack me in the face and tell me to get over myself? A better player took a different strategy and beat me soundly, and I still think my plan was better and I got unlucky. Am I really losing it? This is beginning to get really frustrating for me.

Anyways, here's the video link. Between the discussion on the video and my YouTube comment my stance should be clear on exactly what is best here.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Not to try and take anything away from your self-flagellation, but something to consider -- When I play with my friend's Dominion set, I have to be overly cautious with exactly how I shuffle. If I try to be lazy and just do a couple side-shuffles, his cards tend to clump due to uneven wear; the base set Coppers are WAY more worn out than the Ruins, for instance.

[AdamH]

This is most definitely the case with my cards (well, card protectors). I will do this.

[qmech]

This is most definitely the case with my cards (well, card protectors). I will do this.

Wait, sleeves get just as horrible and sticky as cards?

[dondon151]

I can't be bothered to listen to the video very much, but I don't see too much of a problem with the posted game. I think Counterfeit was correct here, but Qvist's Minions were definitely not the right call, and I think he could have executed his strategy better. You wanted a couple more Highways.

Because if you think about it, with some trashing from Counterfeit, you won't need 7 Wharves for drawing power, and some of those could have been Highways instead, and the deck could have been much faster. My impression is that a board like this shouldn't last more than 14 turns given all of the killer combos.

Sometimes these engines aren't as perfect as they seem to be, but if most of the problems that you're having are to do with IRL games, I can only parrot Drab and suggest that you shuffle better.

[AdamH]

Game log, for reference: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130522/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1369270540374.txt

I was hoping for a little more insight into how to build these engines rather than my IRL shuffling technique. This game contains an example of what I'm talking about: T10 I start off a fresh shuffle and use Wandering Winders to cycle almost completely through my deck, leaving 3 Wharves at the bottom of my shuffle with no villages left on T11. The exact same thing happens on T12 leaving me with a dud T13 hand, and more importantly, decreasing the number of Wharves I'm able to get in play each turn. It looks to me like shuffle luck, but this happens to me so much that I have to think there's some way I can build my engine better to mitigate this. I didn't post in the "Help!" forum to whine about my shuffle luck, I want to identify weaknesses in my game and improve them.

To be clear, I'm experiencing this problem IRL most of the time because that's where I'm playing most of my games now. I'm just mentioning that because I can't post game logs of IRL games, and I figured I'd be asked for examples.

I actually think a single late-game Minion really helped Qvist's deck, since he could discard green cards and re-draw if necessary. Maybe another Highway or Wharf might have been better, but I don't think it was a misplay at all.

If you think a deck that buys Highways instead of Wharves would be faster, then I'm curious to how you would build that deck on this board. My plan was to set up a WW/Wharf draw engine that should be able to reliably get 2/3 Wharves in play each turn, being my source of buys. Once this is up and running, get Highways later. I thought this would be more effective and more reliable, and I thought it should have had 2 Highways bought on T10, 4 more on T11, and massive megaturn ending on piles on T12 with 3 Wharves in play on each of those turns. I still don't understand what was ill-conceived about this plan, but it clearly didn't work.

[SCSN]

and use Wandering Winders

They are called Wandering Minstrels! At first I thought it was some sort of joke/homage to WW, but you use it casually and dead-serious throughout the whole video, and now even here, so I suspect you genuinely do not know

If you think a deck that buys Highways instead of Wharves would be faster, then I'm curious to how you would build that deck on this board. My plan was to set up a WW/Wharf draw engine that should be able to reliably get 2/3 Wharves in play each turn, being my source of buys. Once this is up and running, get Highways later. I thought this would be more effective and more reliable, and I thought it should have had 2 Highways bought on T10, 4 more on T11, and massive megaturn ending on piles on T12 with 3 Wharves in play on each of those turns. I still don't understand what was ill-conceived about this plan, but it clearly didn't work.

I think the problem with this is that you invest most of the game in carddraw, without really having anything worth drawing. The purpose of your Wharves should be to connect your Ironworks and Highways, not to hopefully draw on T10 your entire collection of Coppers and Estates. Also, Wandering Minstrel is absolutely terrible w.r.t. Wharves compared to Fishing Village, and your buying spree really suggested to me that you had alot of the latter Wandering Minstrel is the worst village to have when you have alot of terminals, as by discarding treasure and green, it actively arranges terminal collision. You can use this to your advantage, of course, as its super-fast cycling ensures that you see your terminals more often, which means that you need to buy less of them than usual to play them at the same frequency, but that is not exactly what you did

Also, Qvist could have won the game on T16 by playing Ironworks->Highway, Ironworks->Province, Buy Province, Buy Highway, Buy 2x Wharf.

[AdamH]

and use Wandering Winders

They are called Wandering Minstrels! At first I thought it was some sort of joke/homage to WW, but you use it casually and dead-serious throughout the whole video, and now even here, so I suspect you genuinely do not know

I am aware, it's a joke/homage to WW. Do you get it?

Wandering Minstrel is absolutely terrible w.r.t. Wharves compared to Fishing Village [...] Wandering Minstrel is the worst village to have when you have alot of terminals, as by discarding treasure and green, it actively arranges terminal collision...

...You're being serious?!

I mean, Fishing Village is best with Wharf for-sure-sies, but I am quite certain that WW is second best by a lot. I thought the whole point of WW's ability is to pair your Villages with drawing cards... as long as your terminals draw cards.

[SCSN]

Wandering Minstrel is absolutely terrible w.r.t. Wharves compared to Fishing Village [...] Wandering Minstrel is the worst village to have when you have alot of terminals, as by discarding treasure and green, it actively arranges terminal collision...

...You're being serious?!

I mean, Fishing Village is best with Wharf for-sure-sies, but I am quite certain that WW is second best by a lot. I thought the whole point of WW's ability is to pair your Villages with drawing cards... as long as your terminals draw cards.

I am dead-serious, but I'm not saying it's bad with Wharf, I'm saying it's bad when you buy as many Wharves as you usually would, which is a big difference.

WM is good at sifting to your terminals, which means that you need less of them in your deck to play them at the usual frequency, thus making it a very strong village. If you buy the same amount of terminals as you would with a vanilla village, however, it can easily increase the average number of terminals/hand beyond the amount that you can play. With a normal village you cycle way slower, so you have more actions to spend per shuffle because you get a "free" action at the start of each turn.

[AdamH]

OK, So WW for your village means you can get by with less terminals. Usually in a Wharf deck I think about how many Wharves I want to have in play each turn, though. So I'm struggling to see how this concept applies to the use of Wharf. Add in also that besides Counterfeit, Wharf is your source of +Buy to pair with Highway. If Counterfeit is going to be involved in this deck, I'm still not clear on how it's best used, particularly to be faster than getting Wharves.

I tested some stuff out playing against a bot. None of the bots bought Militias, which skews things a bit, but I can't think of any times in the actual game where I actually got hurt by a Militia. This may skew things a touch.

Trying to emulate my in-game strategy:

Open Militia/Silver
Get Ironworks on first reshuffle, get Wharves on $5 up to 6 of them, WW on $4 buys/gains, and try to get another Silver at some point.
At this point, get Highways until you can pile the game on a win (usually have 6 or them by this point and the ability to Ironworks/buy lots of Provinces here)

This ended the game on turn 13 or 14

Incorporating Ironworks/Highway interaction, I do this:

Open Militia/Silver
Get Ironworks on first reshuffle, on $5 Buys/gains, get Highway, Wharf, Highway, then Wharves up to 6 of them
On $4 buys/gains, get WW (maybe get some of these over Wharves if I get terminal heavy, but that hasn't come up)
Get Silver on $3, but not necessary.
After I have 6 Wharves, get several more highways quickly until you have like 5 or 6 of them, then devour Provinces.

This ended the game on turn 11 or 12.

I guess that's a benchmark? The deck felt roughly the same each time I played it, but it was obvs. faster with IW/Highway shenanigannery. None of these felt like when I played this game on the video.

[eHalcyon]

I toss in my vote that WM should be good with Wharves.

[DG]

In your game with Qvist you buy extra silvers and they probably just clogged up your deck and/or were discarded by minstrels. It's strange how often those extra silvers are unproductive. Anyway wandering minstrels often under perform in strategies where you are using treasures for coin so that's a good reason to prefer the highway route.

[SCSN]

Usually in a Wharf deck I think about how many Wharves I want to have in play each turn, though. So I'm struggling to see how this concept applies to the use of Wharf.

It means that you need more WM's/Wharf than you would need ordinary villages/Wharf, unless you are (close to) drawing your whole deck.

Incorporating Ironworks/Highway interaction, I do this:

Sounds pretty good, though I'm unsure whether Highway or Wharf should be your first $5 (I'm leaning towards Wharf). In any case, I'd make sure never to have more Wharves than Highways past the early game, since I expect the latter to get contested heavily (which the bot apparently doesn't do if you can still get 6 Highways that late in the game), and they are absolute key to winning, in the sense that choosing between 6 Highways and 4 Wharves and 4 Wharves and 6 Highways, I'd pick the latter all day. I also think you want a little more than just one Ironworks, as Highway-Ironworks let's you gain $5 cards (and in the end Provinces) quicker than playing a bit more Copper and Silver from the draws of your Wharves.

[dudeabides]

To weight in on the "Are WM and Wharf good together?" question, I say yes. 
Silly evidence here: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130528/log.50d0ac56e4b0c5e1e73b1608.1369782055867.txt

I think that getting Counterfeit with first $5, as Qvist did, is the critical thing here to clear out Coppers.  Militia doesn't seem to be that effective here.

I may have an irrational affinity for Scrying Pools, but I think I open Silver/Ironworks, planning to get Potion with 1st Ironworks (hoping I have $4 in hand when I do that), going for Counterfeit on 1st $5, Highway on 2nd $5.  Second Ironworks if I hit $4 again.  Spam WMs with Ironworks if no Highway in play, and Highways if a Highway is in play.  This might be too slow.

[dondon151]

The Scrying Pool option is definitely a gutsy move here, and I think that it will be slow for two reasons: one is that you're not opening with Potion, and the other is that your Treasure trasher is itself a Treasure, so there's the potential for conflicting interests when your SP reveals a Counterfeit.

While I do agree that Militia is not terribly strong here, I don't think that it's wise to ignore it and open with Ironworks instead. An IW opening leaves you at much higher risk to not hit $5 at all, and it would be even worse if your opponent's Militia falls on your $5 hand. With a Militia opening, you have a ~1/6 chance to hit $5 twice as a partial safeguard against an opponent's opening Militia.

On the first reshuffle, I would buy Counterfeit/IW with $5+/$4 and Counterfeit/Silver with $5+/$3. My next $5 should be a Wharf. All future $4s should be WM. I wouldn't get a second IW until the deck can successfully link Highway, Wharf, and IW. I think that I would get 2 Wharves before getting Highways, then balance Wharf, WM, and Highway gains as the deck sees fit.

Anyway, to answer AdamH's question, here's a game that I dug up which is similar in some ways to your game: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20130124-210412-08e7ae5a.html
With trashing in the kingdom, you don't really need that many Wharves. Remake is obviously much better than Counterfeit, but the principle still holds.

[kn1tt3r]

Anyways, here's the video link. Between the discussion on the video and my YouTube comment my stance should be clear on exactly what is best here.

You're asking two seperate questions. The first one, why you keep losing on similar semi-optimal engine boards, and the second one, why you lost in this specific game.

The first is the interesting one, but it needs more than this very example, because here - and now we're at question two - you just played a worse strategy and also overlooked (you said it yourself) the Highway/Ironworks synergy (which is extremely important here).

But even without, on this board I think it's important to focus more on Highways, and of course get an early Counterfeit. I mean, even without Villages you ususally want some Highways in Wharf decks. Highways with all those buys will help you put together your engine way faster, you don't need extra Silvers for buying power, and you also have some mild megaturn potential for the endgame (probably negligible on this board). With Ironworks it's a nobrainer.

[AdamH]

Thanks for all the discussion so far. It's nice to hear things from smart people.

Maybe I'm just missing something here, but I've even tried playing a couple of games with buying a Counterfeit as my first $5 card. I haven't been able to get anything going nearly as fast as when I ignore it. Nothing before turn 14, and it feels like the trashing is just too slow. I'm still very skeptical of how this can work. Here's what I've been doing:

Open Militia/Silver
Get Ironworks first reshuffle
$5 buys/gains go Counterfeit, Highway, Wharf, Highway, then Wharves up to 4 (I still think if you can get 6 then you should), then more Highways. With competition I guess you could prioritize Highways, but this deck didn't seem to do anything useful without more Wharves.
$4 buys/gains go to WWs
$3 go to Silvers, I guess.

Seems like a second Ironworks might be helpful here, but I haven't tried that out.

I just think Counterfeit is too slow as trashing here since there is such draw/sifting present. I guess I'm just playing it wrong?

[eHalcyon]

I think I'd take Wharf before Highway (maybe even before Counterfeit) but focus more on Highways. Shouldn't need that much draw if you are reading and just buying cantrips.

[dondon151]

You should take a couple of Wharves before Highways, and you only need enough Wharves to draw out your deck.

It could be that Counterfeit is a little slow, but I've had bad experiences relying on Wharf for draw consistency in games without trashing.

[philosophyguy]

The first $5 should be Wharf, no question. After that I'd go Highway, Highway, then Wharfs and Highways.

Reasoning: the Wharf is key, but Highways are really important for making the Ironworks able to gain Highways/Wharfs and making Wharf's +Buy more useful.

Counterfeit and WM play a similar role in this setup, because WM helps connect action cards and Counterfeit provides slight deck thinning to connect actions. I lean towards WM rather than Counterfeit simply because Highway is such a huge card here and the Wharves/Ironworks covers the +gain. I'm willing to be persuaded on this, but the more I think about it the more I think Counterfeit is just too slow here, plus it risks losing the Highway split.

[DG]

As you move from the mid game to the end game you might see the game turning on buys/gains for a 3 pile finish. It's highly likely in this kingdom. In this case you would need to spot what might be your 'penultimate' turn and stock up on buys and gains, looking to leave piles too big for your opponent but within your reach. This would be a wharf heavy strategy and might need only a couple of highways.

If you look on the old council room records you'll see that the win rate without provinces for top players is very high. It's because they managed 3 pile ending so much better than the average isotropic players.

[Qvist]

Ok, my 2 cents after rewatching the game.

We both played suboptimally. I tried to build a deck that would end up in being as much Highways as possible, as few Coppers as possible (of course 0 is best) with the help of Counterfeit, 3 Estates (as I can't trash them), 1 Militia to slow Adam down, 1-2 Minions to be able to play all those cantrip Highways even after being hit with Militia, 1 Ironworks early and in the end game more of them (and some WMs to play multiples of them for Provinces). I was struggling and not sure if this would work, so I added Wharf mainly for the buy and some countering against Militia.

I ignored the Wharf engine, because it meant that I need WMs and there's really no time for that as Highways, Wharves and WMs would be 3 piles to be gone before I get everything setup. I think this strategy could have easily worked out if I would have gotten 2! Counterfeits before any Highway. Why? I get an additional buy for the Highways and get a thin deck much faster. I think that could work pretty well. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now to Adam. Beside the fact that he totally missed Ironworks/Highway, some of you brought up the most important fact. You were drawing your whole deck for what? For Coppers and a couple of Silvers? That's not worth it. You either want Highways way earlier to get a much better economy (as the Wharves get you basically at least 2 buys per turn guaranteed and then the Highway is basically at least a Grand Market (without the buy) or you want just more money (with Hoard or possibly just Gold) which is probably too slow on the board and makes your engine less reliable. SCSN has brought up a good point that you want more WMs than a normal village as they help you cycling, but I still think getting like 6 Wharves as Adam did is the right move.

I still think that Minion/Highway/Counterfeit is much better than Wharf/WM/Highway, but I would be happy to try that out again.

[Geronimoo]

Some simulator results:

The Wandering Minstrel/Highway/Wharf engine is super strong and quite fast (13 turns to 4 Provinces). Militia will just slow it down. Counterfeit is good if you open $5/$2, but too slow when opening $4/$3

Here's the game plan which gave the best results:
Open Ironworks/Silver (or Counterfeit/-)
Get 2 Wharves asap, then start hammering the Highways. Once you have 5 Highways alternate between Highway and Wharf.
Get Wandering Minstrels if you have more Wharves than Villages
Aim for 1 or 2 megaturns with 5 or more Highways played.

[philosophyguy]

Geronimoo, does the optimal strategy involve a Militia at any point, or does the wasted gain slow down the engine too much?

[Geronimoo]

Geronimoo, does the optimal strategy involve a Militia at any point, or does the wasted gain slow down the engine too much?

I tried injecting a Militia at different points in the game, but they always made the win rate drop.