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Author Topic: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen  (Read 4308 times)

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Asper

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Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« on: May 26, 2013, 02:05:30 pm »
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Allright, i have balancing problems, and maybe you guys can help me. I'm grateful for any feedback, including non-balance related entries.

Hospital
3$, Action
+ 1 Card
+ 1 Action
+ 1 VP
Each other player gains a card costing up to 3$.


Soup Kitchen
4$, Action-Attack
+ 1 Card
+ 1$
Each other player gains a Copper, putting it in his hand.
(Remains of the Charter idea)


Constuct
4$, Action
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards that together cost up to 3$ more than the trashed card.
(About Construct: I also considered to make it a looter (forcing you to gain a ruins and a +3$-cost), but i somehow feel the easier the better. What do you think?)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 02:19:10 pm by Asper »
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dondon151

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2013, 02:40:39 pm »
+1

I think a problem with Hospital will be that once you play Hospitals, everyone else will get Hospitals. The forced gain of a card costing $3 or less could be harmful, and it will also easily lead to 3-pile endings due to its non-terminal nature.

(The forced gain prevents the game from going on forever, but it really doesn't look like a good effect to me.)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 02:41:45 pm by dondon151 »
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Asper

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2013, 03:01:37 pm »
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I think a problem with Hospital will be that once you play Hospitals, everyone else will get Hospitals. The forced gain of a card costing $3 or less could be harmful, and it will also easily lead to 3-pile endings due to its non-terminal nature.

(The forced gain prevents the game from going on forever, but it really doesn't look like a good effect to me.)

Thanks, i compared the gain to Swindler when i thought about it, but you are right, Hospital is non-terminal... The 3-pile ending is kind of intended, though... *think* Maybe a "may gain" and lifting the cost up to 4$ to prevent self-gaining? Players who got no Hospitals could still make the game lead to an end if they feel behind, even by gaining Estates and pulling even VP-wise. The card gets remarkably worse with the may, but well, maybe it was too strong in the first place (i actually felt it was too weak, but that's why i ask you guys...). So:

Hospital
Action, 4$
+ 1 Card
+ 1 Action
+ 1 VP
Each other player may gain a card costing up to 3$.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 03:02:59 pm by Asper »
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2013, 04:39:54 pm »
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The old one wasn't so much weak as it was just steamrolling the game towards a three-pile ending while filling everyone's decks with junk.  If you're in a 4-player game it's hard to do any sort of strategy if you're having to take 3-4 $3 cards every turn (and you might even have to take more). 
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Asper

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 06:01:35 pm »
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The old one wasn't so much weak as it was just steamrolling the game towards a three-pile ending while filling everyone's decks with junk.  If you're in a 4-player game it's hard to do any sort of strategy if you're having to take 3-4 $3 cards every turn (and you might even have to take more).

Yeah, i was probably thinking about early Silvers too much... You are right, without the "may" it's actually an attack, and even with it it's not something people will like to do... I'll playtest it a bit as soon as i can, if this still turns out to strong, i'll change it to "Each other player may gain a card costing up to 3$. If he does, he may put it on his deck."
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KingZog3

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 08:43:24 pm »
+1

If Hospital gaining Hospital is problem, you could say "Each other player gains a Silver or a card costing exactly $4." It would be an attack card, but it might make it more interesting. It might need some balance on he first effects to make this work though.
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Powerman

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2013, 12:00:46 am »
+1

If Hospital gaining Hospital is problem, you could say "Each other player gains a Silver or a card costing exactly $4." It would be an attack card, but it might make it more interesting. It might need some balance on he first effects to make this work though.

Gaining a silver isn't an attack, look at Governor.
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KingZog3

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2013, 12:41:24 pm »
+1

If Hospital gaining Hospital is problem, you could say "Each other player gains a Silver or a card costing exactly $4." It would be an attack card, but it might make it more interesting. It might need some balance on he first effects to make this work though.

Gaining a silver isn't an attack, look at Governor.

And Embassy. True. But that still may be a good effect for Hospital.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2013, 12:41:57 pm »
+1

Soup Kitchen
4$, Action-Attack
+ 1 Card
+ 1$
Each other player gains a Copper, putting it in his hand.

Each other player gaining a Copper in hand isn't much of an Attack. It's a short-term bonus for a long-term penalty, and there are many games where it's not even much of a penalty. Heck, I have a card where each other player may gain a Copper in hand as a mild nerf to the card itself.

Overall, I'd say Soup Kitchen is an incredibly weak card.
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Awaclus

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2013, 04:29:44 pm »
+1

If Hospital gaining Hospital is problem, you could say "Each other player gains a Silver or a card costing exactly $4." It would be an attack card, but it might make it more interesting. It might need some balance on he first effects to make this work though.

Gaining a silver isn't an attack, look at Governor.

And Embassy. True. But that still may be a good effect for Hospital.
Though, Embassy's silver gain doesn't happen when you play it so it doesn't matter whether or not it is an attack card (edge cases such as Squire aside). See IGG.
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KingZog3

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2013, 05:34:19 pm »
+1

If Hospital gaining Hospital is problem, you could say "Each other player gains a Silver or a card costing exactly $4." It would be an attack card, but it might make it more interesting. It might need some balance on he first effects to make this work though.

Gaining a silver isn't an attack, look at Governor.

And Embassy. True. But that still may be a good effect for Hospital.
Though, Embassy's silver gain doesn't happen when you play it so it doesn't matter whether or not it is an attack card (edge cases such as Squire aside). See IGG.

Fine, I get it. No need for correction. I just meant Embassy in terms of Silver not being bad. I think what's more important is the effect, not whether it's an attack or not. Hence, why not just comment on the effect I proposed as opposed to only mentioning a minor detail of card type?
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Asper

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 03:42:53 pm »
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I can't restrict the gain of Hospital to Silvers. VP cards need to bring the game closer to ending, and Hospital would stop doing this as soon as Silvers are out. Also it's not intended to be an attack, but a weak bonus for the other players.

About Soup Kitchen:
I know the Copper is a small benefit, but i heard some very different positions whether something like it would be an attack or not back in the Charter thread. I think it would, but i'm not sure.

I see your point, though. How about:

Soup Kitchen
3$, Action - Attack
+ 1 Card
+ 1$
Each other player discards a Treasure card or reveals a hand without Tresure cards. Then he gains a Copper, putting it in his hand.

Edit: It's not going with the spirit anymore, but maybe that "spirit" was a dumb idea from the start... (if you wonder, it's a forced Beggar).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 03:50:10 pm by Asper »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 03:46:19 pm »
+1

About Soup Kitchen:
I know the Copper is a small benefit, but i heard some very different positions whether something like it would be an attack or not back in the Charter thread. I think it would, but i'm not sure.

If it seems incredibly weak, how about this (cheaper, other vanilla, without attack type):

Soup Kitchen
3$, Action
+ 2$
Each other player gains a Copper, putting it in his hand.

I'd say a mandatory Copper gain into hand is a bit of a wash, whether or not the card is an Attack card. Overall, you have a terminal Action that provides +$2 for $3. Still very weak.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 01:07:19 pm »
+1

I'd say a mandatory Copper gain into hand is a bit of a wash, whether or not the card is an Attack card. Overall, you have a terminal Action that provides +$2 for $3. Still very weak.

You could try adding a +1 action to the card, so it's non-terminal. That way, it's functionally a silver that doesn't clog your hand, but has the nominal attack benefit of cluttering your opponent's hand with copper; the fact that they get to use the copper once before it becomes clutter helps it balance out.

It means that buying/using the Soup Kitchen early in the game might help your opponent more that hurt them, if that extra coin allows them to get some early 5-cost cards. Later in the game, it becomes much more powerful as an attack, since, accompanied by a draw engine, it could be spammed to muck up an opponent's engine. Would also synchronize well with hand-size attacks. The late game-effects might justify charging 4 instead of three for the card.
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Asper

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 02:39:51 pm »
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I'd say a mandatory Copper gain into hand is a bit of a wash, whether or not the card is an Attack card. Overall, you have a terminal Action that provides +$2 for $3. Still very weak.

You could try adding a +1 action to the card, so it's non-terminal. That way, it's functionally a silver that doesn't clog your hand, but has the nominal attack benefit of cluttering your opponent's hand with copper; the fact that they get to use the copper once before it becomes clutter helps it balance out.

It means that buying/using the Soup Kitchen early in the game might help your opponent more that hurt them, if that extra coin allows them to get some early 5-cost cards. Later in the game, it becomes much more powerful as an attack, since, accompanied by a draw engine, it could be spammed to muck up an opponent's engine. Would also synchronize well with hand-size attacks. The late game-effects might justify charging 4 instead of three for the card.

Thank you, i'll try that.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2013, 04:24:51 pm »
+1

I'd say a mandatory Copper gain into hand is a bit of a wash, whether or not the card is an Attack card. Overall, you have a terminal Action that provides +$2 for $3. Still very weak.

You could try adding a +1 action to the card, so it's non-terminal. That way, it's functionally a silver that doesn't clog your hand, but has the nominal attack benefit of cluttering your opponent's hand with copper; the fact that they get to use the copper once before it becomes clutter helps it balance out.

It means that buying/using the Soup Kitchen early in the game might help your opponent more that hurt them, if that extra coin allows them to get some early 5-cost cards. Later in the game, it becomes much more powerful as an attack, since, accompanied by a draw engine, it could be spammed to muck up an opponent's engine. Would also synchronize well with hand-size attacks. The late game-effects might justify charging 4 instead of three for the card.

Thank you, i'll try that.

Thinking more about it, the more I think it's an interesting approach -- and the more I think $3 may be a better price, to encourage multiple buys and to make it a vialbe alternative to silver; early in the game, this is probably worse than a silver; late in the game, this is probably better than silver. And, unlike silver, this could TR/KC.

Many attack cards get weaker as the game progresses, but this one gets stronger. Late in the game, an extra copper in the opponents hand doesn't matter as much as it would early on, but the extra copper is increasingly inconvenient as it is likely to lower the average coin value of a deck upon reshuffle. Also, late game you're more likely to have an engine that can draw in the extra cards necessary to play this card.

Imagine KC-ing this or playing 3 or 4 in a single turn. You've probably guaranteed yourself -- and your opponent -- a Province buy. But next reshuffle, his deck is 3-4 coppers thicker, and your deck is just as lean as it was before.

The biggest drawback to this card is probably that I can quickly think of several cards who's presence would mean this card would be ignored (not that all cards don't have some version of that scenario)... with Gardens, you don't want to spam coppers into your opponent's deck. Same definitely goes for Counting House and, to a lesser degree, Coppersmith. That said, on most boards Counting House is so underpowered it gets ignored, so I don't think the conflict would really be that strong. And with Coppersmith, extra coppers is still likely to be a problem later on when it slows deck cycling -- and access to the Coppersmiths. The only real "problem" is gardens, but I think there are other cards that allow your opponents to gain cards and they aren't considered broken because the occurrence is fairly rare.

That said, if I can talk people into it, this is a card I'd have fun helping playtest to see if it works... good luck in finalizing your design.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2013, 04:27:17 pm »
+1

Actually, in the end game a bonus Copper in hand is great. If you're not going to reshuffle again, it's not going to clog up your deck. Even if you are, it helps once you shift from buying Provinces to buying Duchies and Kingdom Victory cards.
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KingZog3

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2013, 08:34:01 pm »
+1

The only real "problem" is gardens, but I think there are other cards that allow your opponents to gain cards and they aren't considered broken because the occurrence is fairly rare.

If Trader Feodum wasn't a problem, than this is even less of a problem for Gardens.
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Asper

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Re: Hospital, Construct, Soup Kitchen
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2013, 12:21:57 pm »
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In any case, thank you, GeronimoRex, for your considerate feedback. That's what i needed.
One more reason why the additional action is a great buff: It allows you to play a Militia right after Soup Kitchen.

Hmm... Probably LastFootnote has a point, though. In the endgame, an additional Copper in hand is pretty neat. I'll experiment and playtest with different additional bonuses and other costs a bit...
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