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Author Topic: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions  (Read 4972 times)

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ravi

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Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« on: May 25, 2013, 07:39:29 pm »
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So I can't quite figure this one out.  Let's say you play a Golem and you draw two laboratories.  On the first laboratory you draw two coppers and then on the second one you draw 2 Monuments.  Can you play both Monuments or only one of them at this point?

I know for Throne room the description says you must carry out all actions to their conclusion before doing the next, but Golem has no such description.  So if you throne roomed your Lab then you could only play one of those Monuments, not sure what happens with Golem though.

Sorry if this has been asked before, I looked around and couldn't find a similar question.
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sudgy

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2013, 07:40:17 pm »
+1

The golem uses one action, and each Lab adds an action.  That makes it so you can play two actions afterwards.
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DG

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2013, 07:47:02 pm »
+3

The golem tells you to dig through your deck until you find two action cards and then play them in either order. So you play a lab and get +2 cards and +1 action, then play a lab and get +2 cards and +1 action. The golem is completed and you can continue your turn. You could then play an action card from hand, which could be a monument, and resolve it for 1 action. You could then play another action card from hand, which could be a monument, and resolve it for 1 action.
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SCSN

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2013, 07:50:07 pm »
+3

So if you throne roomed your Lab then you could only play one of those Monuments, not sure what happens with Golem though.

No. If you Throne Room a Lab you two 2 times +2 Cards, +1 Action, for a total of +4 Cards, +2 Actions, so that if you draw two Monuments, you can play them both. Same thing for Golem, as sudgy and DG mentioned.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2013, 08:56:58 pm »
+4

So I can't quite figure this one out.  Let's say you play a Golem and you draw two laboratories.  On the first laboratory you draw two coppers and then on the second one you draw 2 Monuments.  Can you play both Monuments or only one of them at this point?

I know for Throne room the description says you must carry out all actions to their conclusion before doing the next, but Golem has no such description.  So if you throne roomed your Lab then you could only play one of those Monuments, not sure what happens with Golem though.

Sorry if this has been asked before, I looked around and couldn't find a similar question.

Note 2 very important things that may clear up this and other questions... you always finish playing one card completely before playing another card, and +1 action means "add 1 to the number of actions you are allowed to play this turn", NOT "play another action now."

Golem, Throne Room, and a couple other cards specify to play another action as part of resolving that card, so when you play that other action you aren't using one of your available actions to do it, you are just following the instructions on the Golem/Throne Room. So in either case, the outcome is exactly the same... you used your 1 action to play the Golem/Throne Room, it caused you to play Lab, then Lab. Since each of those Labs added +1 action, you now have 2 actions remaining.
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Schneau

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2013, 10:39:26 pm »
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Do we have this clearly written up in some FAQ somewhere, like maybe on the wiki? It seems the "+Actions means I have to play action cards immediately" questions comes up about once a month, and it would be nice to link to it.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2013, 10:46:50 pm »
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Do we have this clearly written up in some FAQ somewhere, like maybe on the wiki? It seems the "+Actions means I have to play action cards immediately" questions comes up about once a month, and it would be nice to link to it.

It always makes me wonder how many people must be playing like that who never think to ask on the Internet or look.  I've always wanted to try playing a round where +action means "Play another action right now" to see what kind of mess you get out of it.
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ravi

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2013, 02:25:32 am »
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Thanks guys.  My confusion was that when Throne Room says to "resolve the action completely" I thought that also meant the +Actions you get.  I now see that the resolving only refers to the text below and that any bolded + items refer to your whole turn.

Thanks, guess I have been playing incorrectly for a while now, but I'll correct it in my group.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2013, 08:43:55 am »
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Thanks guys.  My confusion was that when Throne Room says to "resolve the action completely" I thought that also meant the +Actions you get.  I now see that the resolving only refers to the text below and that any bolded + items refer to your whole turn.

Thanks, guess I have been playing incorrectly for a while now, but I'll correct it in my group.

Just in case there's any additional confusion, if a card gives a +Buy, you don't buy a card right there.  It just gives you one additional (optional) buy when you finish playing your actions and reach your buy phase.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2013, 10:41:41 am »
+1

Here's another way to look at it:

In Dominion, there's actually 3 invisible currencies: money, action points, and buy points. You start each turn with $0, 1 action point, and 1 buy point. During your action phase, you can spend 1 action point to play an action card from your hand. If that card says "+1 action", what that really means is "+1 action point". You spend buy points (along with the appropriate amount of money) in your buy phase to purchase cards, and you get buy points the same way.
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Asper

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2013, 11:57:02 am »
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The timings of the things happening on cards are a little difficult sometimes.

+ Cards and + Victory Tokens (from the Prosperity Expansion) happen immediately.
+ Actions are accounted immediately, but not spent immediately. GendoIkari explained how it works very well, so i'll not repeat him here.
+ Buys and + Coins are accounted the same way Actions are. The difference is that you may spend them in your buy phase, which comes after your action phase.

All other texts are resolved immediately, unless they are specifically referring to any other moment.
Text under a stroke always has those moments specified, so it never happens immediately when you play a card. Cards with those strokes are:
- Reactions, which only happen if the card is NOT in play and are on blue cards (like Moat)
- "While this is in play"-conditions, which only happen if, additionally to the condition happening, the card IS in play (like Herbalist).
- "When you gain this", "When you buy this" (Hinterland Expansion) and "When you trash this" (Dark Ages Expansion), which simply happen if you, well, gain, buy, or trash the card, respectively.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 02:16:59 pm by Asper »
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2013, 12:28:49 pm »
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The timings of the things happening on cards are a little difficult sometimes.


I've never really seen the problem here.  Every line of the card is executed, in order, before moving on to the next step.  "+1 Action" is resolved immediately, by adding one to the number of actions you can play that turn.  It sounds like you're trying to continue interpreting it as "Take an action" but just saying that the timing is deferred until later in the turn, but that seems to be more confusing to me.

Maybe I'm just unusual, but to me, the most natural way to interpret "+1" is that some counter is being increased, not that I'm being asked to do something.  If my boss tells me he's giving me an extra vacation day, that doesn't mean I have to leave the office immediately and take a vacation day right then.

(EDIT: Text under a line is not resolved immediately, but this is always made clear because the text is prefaced with something like "When this is trashed" or "At the start of your next turn")
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Asper

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2013, 02:10:13 pm »
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The timings of the things happening on cards are a little difficult sometimes.


I've never really seen the problem here.  Every line of the card is executed, in order, before moving on to the next step.  "+1 Action" is resolved immediately, by adding one to the number of actions you can play that turn.  It sounds like you're trying to continue interpreting it as "Take an action" but just saying that the timing is deferred until later in the turn, but that seems to be more confusing to me.

Maybe I'm just unusual, but to me, the most natural way to interpret "+1" is that some counter is being increased, not that I'm being asked to do something.  If my boss tells me he's giving me an extra vacation day, that doesn't mean I have to leave the office immediately and take a vacation day right then.

(EDIT: Text under a line is not resolved immediately, but this is always made clear because the text is prefaced with something like "When this is trashed" or "At the start of your next turn")

They are accounted immediately, that's true. I've not been clear there.
Edit: I see i mentioned the difference between accounting and spending on +Coins, but still didn't mention that accounting happened immediately. Changed.

And how +1 works is obvious to me, too. But this isn't the first time i read somebody thinks he has to do the action immediately. Also you'd never guess what terrible things are in some foreign Dominion manuals (if ravi happens to be a non-native english speaker).

Also i din't claim that text under a line didn't specify when to resolve it. It was an addition to what i said before, so he knows whenever he sees the stroke, he'll immediately know it's no on-play effect.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 02:17:54 pm by Asper »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2013, 04:41:42 pm »
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The timings of the things happening on cards are a little difficult sometimes.


I've never really seen the problem here.  Every line of the card is executed, in order, before moving on to the next step.  "+1 Action" is resolved immediately, by adding one to the number of actions you can play that turn.  It sounds like you're trying to continue interpreting it as "Take an action" but just saying that the timing is deferred until later in the turn, but that seems to be more confusing to me.

Maybe I'm just unusual, but to me, the most natural way to interpret "+1" is that some counter is being increased, not that I'm being asked to do something.  If my boss tells me he's giving me an extra vacation day, that doesn't mean I have to leave the office immediately and take a vacation day right then.

(EDIT: Text under a line is not resolved immediately, but this is always made clear because the text is prefaced with something like "When this is trashed" or "At the start of your next turn")

I think this has been discussed before, but the one thing I would have changed about Dominion is to use separate words for the things you need to spend to play cards, and the type of card itself. Most likely something like "worker" instead of "action", and keep "action cards" the same. So Village would give you +1 card, +2 workers. Of course, Worker's Village should be renamed...
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ravi

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2013, 03:44:18 am »
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And how +1 works is obvious to me, too. But this isn't the first time i read somebody thinks he has to do the action immediately. Also you'd never guess what terrible things are in some foreign Dominion manuals (if ravi happens to be a non-native english speaker).

Oddly enough, though I live in the Netherlands and have an Indian name, I am a native english speaker (born and lived the first 22 years of my life in Massachusetts).  Also, my Dutch friend (non-native English speaker) got the rule right while it was me who got the rule wrong.  He is used to playing the Dutch version while we were actually playing the English version.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2013, 09:09:38 am »
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The timings of the things happening on cards are a little difficult sometimes.


I've never really seen the problem here.  Every line of the card is executed, in order, before moving on to the next step.  "+1 Action" is resolved immediately, by adding one to the number of actions you can play that turn.  It sounds like you're trying to continue interpreting it as "Take an action" but just saying that the timing is deferred until later in the turn, but that seems to be more confusing to me.

Maybe I'm just unusual, but to me, the most natural way to interpret "+1" is that some counter is being increased, not that I'm being asked to do something.  If my boss tells me he's giving me an extra vacation day, that doesn't mean I have to leave the office immediately and take a vacation day right then.

(EDIT: Text under a line is not resolved immediately, but this is always made clear because the text is prefaced with something like "When this is trashed" or "At the start of your next turn")

I think this has been discussed before, but the one thing I would have changed about Dominion is to use separate words for the things you need to spend to play cards, and the type of card itself. Most likely something like "worker" instead of "action", and keep "action cards" the same. So Village would give you +1 card, +2 workers. Of course, Worker's Village should be renamed...

This seems like it could lead to further confusion on another common newbie question, whether you need extra actions to play Throne Room.  If people think that "play a card" means "Use up a worker, put the card in front of you, execute the instruction" then it would sound like you need 3 workers to use a throne room.
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Jeebus

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Re: Golem+Card Draws/+Actions
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2013, 04:34:39 pm »
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Thanks guys.  My confusion was that when Throne Room says to "resolve the action completely" I thought that also meant the +Actions you get.  I now see that the resolving only refers to the text below and that any bolded + items refer to your whole turn.

Others have already explained how it works thoroughly, but I just want to be explicit and say that your new interpretation here is also wrong. There is no difference between bolded "+ items" and any other instruction. Everything is done immediately and in order. The problem is rather that you were misinterpreting what "+1 Action" means.
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