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Author Topic: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list  (Read 147771 times)

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chwhite

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #150 on: October 20, 2011, 11:57:52 am »
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Hm, I can see the Jack working really well against discard attacks and Sea Hag.  Better than Lookout for the latter purpose, sure.

What I really don't get is how the Jack gets you to provinces so quickly in a five-card hand when you still have all seven coppers to deal with.

...

Hinterlands is really giving a big boost to Silver-based strategies.  Gotta say I'm surprised the inevitable "1 VP for every X Treasures in your deck" card wasn't in this set, perhaps instead of Silk Road.  Maybe that card isn't so inevitable after all.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #151 on: October 20, 2011, 12:10:59 pm »
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What I really don't get is how the Jack gets you to provinces so quickly in a five-card hand when you still have all seven coppers to deal with.

Let's do a little math. If we assume we've trashed all the estates, we've got seven coppers plus the jacks in our deck, but the jacks are virtual cards if they don't collide, so just the seven coppers plus whatever silvers we have. We need average money density of 1.6 to expect enough money to get a province. So (7+2x)/(7+x) = 1.6. Solve for x and it's 10.5. We need 10.5 silvers, if there's no gold. And we're buying a silver basically every turn except the two we buy jacks and any we buy provinces in, plus gaining one every time we play a jack. So we should hit this 10.5 number... I don't know, turn 9? And it's a little better because we're getting golds, a little worse because we could have jacks collide, a little better because of the filtering. So 13-14 for 4 provinces doesn't seem that unreasonable.

ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #152 on: October 20, 2011, 12:46:12 pm »
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Jacks are nice. If you get over the fact that Silver isn't that bad a card (in fact, it is often an underrated card), the Jacks are nice. What works well is, you clean your deck of Estates, while gaining Silver so you can build a small engine, leaving the Jack to develop money.

You also get to filter out Copper, and have a better chance of drawing what you need.

I tried a few solo games and can often get to 4 Provinces quite quickly.
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Anon79

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #153 on: October 20, 2011, 09:49:28 pm »
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Okay, if Jack is a better accelerator of Big Money than Envoy, and is so resilient to attacks, what does beat it?
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2011, 11:04:42 pm »
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<a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/20/game-20111020-200211-85a710fd.html>Six Provinces by turn 13</a>.
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Copernicus

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2011, 11:09:40 pm »
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Assuming Golem/Scheme/powerful attack (Goons, Mountebank, Witch, etc)...

Is it a good plan to go for the combo, and if so is it worth it to try to double up on the attacks with two Schemes or just go for one of each with Golem/Scheme/attack?
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chwhite

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #156 on: October 21, 2011, 03:14:44 am »
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Oracle seems like a real dog of a card, like serious contender for worst $3 bad. You get the drawing power of Moat (but not the defense!) coupled with a terminal Spy-type attack that is arguably not even better than Spy. Because your opponent can order the cards, it's not even really useful for setting up other types of attacks that care about the top card like Jester, Saboteur or Swindler. Any other candidates for worst card in the expansion?

edit: Okay, you get slightly better drawing power than Moat as you have the option of pitching total garbage. Still seems like this isn't going to be worth it very often.

Oracle ain't that bad.  Looking at what you draw beforehand makes a big difference.  I could see it being at least as disruptive to your opponent and as helpful to you as, say, Fortune Teller, which is pretty weak but not worst $3 weak.

At first blush, I was tempted to call Jack of All Trades pretty bad, but now that people have brought out convincing evidence that it's a great BM enabler, I will upgrade it to annoying instead.  (Part of why I really dislike Envoy is that its presence often forces fast and boring BM matches, and if Jack is as good as people say it is, I'll end up disliking it just as much for the same reason.)

I stand by my assessment of Mandarin as pretty bad, its treasure-giving powers compare to the mediocre Harvest and Merchant Ship, its "return cards to deck" powers will be situationally useful but usually a drag- I can't imagine them being useful more often, or more useful, than something like Outpost.  I could see Mandarin and possibly Cache too being considered for Worst $5 lists.  Cache is probably better than Contraband in general, but those Coppers have to be a pretty big downside in many games.

Duchess kinda sucks, and alas there's not much more to say about her.  My sense is that Fool's Gold is also a lot weaker than most people think, there are occasional situations where it can be good but not that often.

You know what card I bet is actually real bad?  Develop.  If you use it on a Copper, congrats that's a terminal action to trash one card.  Use it on an Estate, okay top-decking a Silver is nice but that's the Bureaucrat problem all over.  It's just so slow as an early trasher, and so so easy to screw up when you try to develop bigger cards, that after a couple aborted attempts at using it I've just let it set there the part few games and not regretted that decision one bit.  I would seriously consider Develop for a spot on the Worst $3s list.

A few of the $4s look not so hot either: Silk Road feels like a worse Gardens most of the time, and for all that it's supposed to be a strictly better Thief, I can't imagine Noble Brigand actually being that good.  Nomad Camp seems like it's unexciting and a worse-than-expected opener, but I think it's actually a great late-game buy if you've got an engine that can inconsistently kick off to lots of cash- buy the Camp on one of your off turns after you've built the deck, and have it when you need that second buy with your $16.

...

Man, that's a lot of cards I don't like all that much.  They're not all like that (though there are a few others that I bet are being way overbought right now)- Border Village, Margrave, and Cartographer all make me very happy, and Stables seems good enough to get even me to start buying Silver again.
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Anon79

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #157 on: October 21, 2011, 03:30:57 am »
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You know what card I bet is actually real bad?  Develop.  If you use it on a Copper, congrats that's a terminal action to trash one card.  Use it on an Estate, okay top-decking a Silver is nice but that's the Bureaucrat problem all over.  It's just so slow as an early trasher, and so so easy to screw up when you try to develop bigger cards, that after a couple aborted attempts at using it I've just let it set there the part few games and not regretted that decision one bit.  I would seriously consider Develop for a spot on the Worst $3s list.
I had the same impression of Develop, but I sat down and thought about it some.

If I'm trying to use it like a Remake, of course it's bad, it's slow. It also doesn't act much like a Remodel, which is useful in the endgame to turn Golds into Provinces. But what if I compare it to say, Trade Route? So now, instead of trashing one card to get +$x and +buy, I trash a $4 or a $6 card, pick up a Duchy, and play the rest of my treasure for $. So it's better than Trade Route in the early game (top-decking Silvers), and worse than (but still sort-of comparable to) Trade Route in the endgame.
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ImACat

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #158 on: October 21, 2011, 03:58:00 am »
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You know what card I bet is actually real bad?  Develop.  If you use it on a Copper, congrats that's a terminal action to trash one card.  Use it on an Estate, okay top-decking a Silver is nice but that's the Bureaucrat problem all over.  It's just so slow as an early trasher, and so so easy to screw up when you try to develop bigger cards, that after a couple aborted attempts at using it I've just let it set there the part few games and not regretted that decision one bit.  I would seriously consider Develop for a spot on the Worst $3s list.
I had the same impression of Develop, but I sat down and thought about it some.

If I'm trying to use it like a Remake, of course it's bad, it's slow. It also doesn't act much like a Remodel, which is useful in the endgame to turn Golds into Provinces. But what if I compare it to say, Trade Route? So now, instead of trashing one card to get +$x and +buy, I trash a $4 or a $6 card, pick up a Duchy, and play the rest of my treasure for $. So it's better than Trade Route in the early game (top-decking Silvers), and worse than (but still sort-of comparable to) Trade Route in the endgame.

You know all those puzzles that involve Ironworks/Watchtower to topdeck, draw and immediately play various cards? That's what Develop is for. Yes it requires the perfect set of well-priced, useful non-terminals, but in that exact pinch Develop works wonders.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #159 on: October 21, 2011, 08:30:09 am »
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Prediction: Cache will soon be shown to be an elite opener.
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guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #160 on: October 21, 2011, 09:19:44 am »
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Develop is a terrible opener, but it's a pretty useful midgame card in a fair number of circumstances. I think $3 is about the right price for it; it's not a game-warping power card or anything.

Cache I don't have a good handle on yet. The one really good use I've found for it so far was re-fueling a Spice Merchant (that I was usually Throning, too). It could do the same for a Moneylender I guess.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #161 on: October 21, 2011, 10:06:27 am »
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It is just a big of a mistake to consider Cache a fuel for Moneylender or Spice Merchant as it is to make a trader/apprentice deck for the purpose of cycling by eating silvers.  Cache is a strong card by and of itself.

It is time to rethink all of our old prejudices against decks bloated with coppers and silvers.  Trimmed decks are by no means dead, but now there has been made a strong strategic space for the opposite.  And make no mistake, many other "rules" of Dominion are no longer set in stone: I have been winning by <i>opening Silk Road</i>.
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Fangz

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #162 on: October 21, 2011, 10:11:32 am »
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I'm not convinced that develop is terrible. Maybe if you just think of it as an estate trasher, sure, but its powers are much more than that. Consider opening Develop/Terminal $4. Then if they don't collide, you play them separately, as normal, which is pretty good. If however they do collide, you aren't bad off at all - develop the $4 for a $5 and a silver or $3 village, and top deck. That's very fast starting development.

I don't see cache as being so awesome, so long as you don't have super rapid trash/cycle. Quarry and Contraband seem superior in most cases.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #163 on: October 21, 2011, 10:12:18 am »
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It is just a big of a mistake to consider Cache a fuel for Moneylender or Spice Merchant as it is to make a trader/apprentice deck for the purpose of cycling by eating silvers.  Cache is a strong card by and of itself.

It is time to rethink all of our old prejudices against decks bloated with coppers and silvers.  Trimmed decks are by no means dead, but now there has been made a strong strategic space for the opposite.  And make no mistake, many other "rules" of Dominion are no longer set in stone: I have been winning by <i>opening Silk Road</i>.
That's definitely messed up (not that I don't believe you). I mean, silk road rushes from the start can be strong, but man, you've got to have a little bit of ammo to make sure you can get enough of them.

guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #164 on: October 21, 2011, 10:12:48 am »
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It is just a big of a mistake to consider Cache a fuel for Moneylender or Spice Merchant as it is to make a trader/apprentice deck for the purpose of cycling by eating silvers.  Cache is a strong card by and of itself.
It was definitely not a mistake when I did it. Cache cost $1 at the time (thanks to Highway), and playing TR/Spice Merchant for 2 Buys every turn was a key part of my strategy. I didn't look at the board and say "Hey, Cache is going to rule here!", I took advantage of a late-game opportunity to buy Cache for 2 Coppers that I was going to need the very next turn, along of course with the nice little bonus of $3 from the Cache itself.

This is not to say Cache can't be a strong card in a bloated deck. That seems plausible to me, too. I just said I don't have a good handle on it yet.
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chwhite

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #165 on: October 21, 2011, 10:48:55 am »
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You know what card I bet is actually real bad?  Develop.  If you use it on a Copper, congrats that's a terminal action to trash one card.  Use it on an Estate, okay top-decking a Silver is nice but that's the Bureaucrat problem all over.  It's just so slow as an early trasher, and so so easy to screw up when you try to develop bigger cards, that after a couple aborted attempts at using it I've just let it set there the part few games and not regretted that decision one bit.  I would seriously consider Develop for a spot on the Worst $3s list.
I had the same impression of Develop, but I sat down and thought about it some.

If I'm trying to use it like a Remake, of course it's bad, it's slow. It also doesn't act much like a Remodel, which is useful in the endgame to turn Golds into Provinces. But what if I compare it to say, Trade Route? So now, instead of trashing one card to get +$x and +buy, I trash a $4 or a $6 card, pick up a Duchy, and play the rest of my treasure for $. So it's better than Trade Route in the early game (top-decking Silvers), and worse than (but still sort-of comparable to) Trade Route in the endgame.

But top-decking a Duchy could very easily ruin your next turn- say you turn some spare $4 into a Duchy and a Silver with Develop and also buy a Province- good luck buying one again!

Cache I don't have a good handle on yet. The one really good use I've found for it so far was re-fueling a Spice Merchant (that I was usually Throning, too). It could do the same for a Moneylender I guess.

This is what I've used Cache for so far, as well.  I think in the absence of cards that specifically can deal with copper bloat well (Spice Merchant, Stables), Cache would probably end up comparable to (but somewhat better than) Contraband. 

And make no mistake, many other "rules" of Dominion are no longer set in stone: I have been winning by <i>opening Silk Road</i>.

 Uh, wow.  I'd sure like to see the log on that one.  :o
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #166 on: October 21, 2011, 10:53:59 am »
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I took advantage of a late-game opportunity to buy Cache for 2 Coppers that I was going to need the very next turn, along of course with the nice little bonus of $3 from the Cache itself.

And I think that is really the key to mastering Hinterlands: taking advantage of the opportunities presented to the maximum advantage.  An example of this is of course the timing of an Inn purchase, but there are countless others. 

I opened 4/3 in first position earlier, and decided I would try a different approach, and bought a Noble Brigand.  I had no way of knowing that my opponent opened 2/5 and that my first buy would absolutely murder him by forcing him to open 2/3 instead.  A few games later I opened 4/3 Brigand in second seat against a guy who bought a Silver on turn 1 and stole his silver.  In both cases the fact that I got lucky really doesn't mean that much to me because the benefit of striking a extremely fast crippling blow outweighed the cost of whiffing.  Brigand is actually an extremely tactical card.  I have found it can disrupt a deck that is just starting to green just by the act of purchasing it at the right moment.

Or take Spice Merchant.  I think he is really an opium dealer.  If you open with it you had better be damn certain to start building an economy right away because the card basically eats up starting treasures without contributing to building the economy.  But it is very strong in the late game within a reliable engine if you haven't squandered the coppers by buying one early.  It provides a +buy while removing a weak and no longer needed card that is then replaced with a VP card.  This ensures deck integrity by keeping the size of the deck neutral.

I will post some logs when they become available.
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Meej

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #167 on: October 21, 2011, 10:55:27 am »
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I'm not convinced that develop is terrible. Maybe if you just think of it as an estate trasher, sure, but its powers are much more than that. Consider opening Develop/Terminal $4. Then if they don't collide, you play them separately, as normal, which is pretty good. If however they do collide, you aren't bad off at all - develop the $4 for a $5 and a silver or $3 village, and top deck. That's very fast starting development.

I had a situation the other day where I opened Develop/Navigator with just this plan in mind.  Worked well for me, too - the extra $5 and Silver I got out of them when they collided not long into the game (5?) caught me up to my opponent who'd opened with a 5/2, if I remember right.
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #168 on: October 21, 2011, 11:26:58 am »
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Develop is a nice card when there's an even distribution of costed cards. Trashing Silver to pick up a complimentary 4 and 2 is nice, and trashing a 5 to get a Farmlands and a 3 (while also upgrading another card in your hand), is not a bad move. Develop is terrible in the early rounds, but if the board is nicely spread, it can do some nice things in the mid-round. 

Cache, I just can't figure its usefulness. I get that its essentially a gold at the price of two clunky cards, but Copper always annoys me. Unless I'm playing Gardens, I am always looking to get rid of Copper. 7 is bad enough having to deal with, dealing with 9 and 11 drives me nuts. But as others have said, one thing Hinterlands does is to force you into wider decks and provides all kinds of engines to deal with them. The amount of filtering you can do in Hinterlands is impressive. The new vibe in Hinterlands is essentially, "why trash when you can discard?" There's so many ways to filter out and upgrade your junk, you don't mind collecting the junk.

It's a very interesting set.

And take my comments with a grain of salt as always, I am not in the same league as most of the posters on this thread.

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guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #169 on: October 21, 2011, 11:28:24 am »
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Let me say that I totally agree with MMM about Hinterlands being the "bloated deck" expansion. I left a comment to that effect on BGG earlier this week. It almost seems like a sub-theme of this expansion to make sure the trimmed deck is no longer the platonic ideal it once was.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #170 on: October 21, 2011, 11:42:14 am »
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Sorry for being posty mcposterson this morning, but I feel like I am getting a good grasp on Hinterlands now.  It is starting to really gel.

The reason that I think Cache is a superb opener is that the two coppers actually help!  The starting Estates control a smaller share of the deck and it becomes very easy indeed to buy early Gold.  Yes, the two coppers also bring down the value of the Cache itself and the early Gold purchases but that is mitigated by having a live "Gold" available starting on turn 3.

I have found that having the extra coppers in a treasure heavy deck can actually contribute to a decks longevity.  I know this seems counter intuitive but who here hasn't trashed down to three gold and got completely hosed by buying VP cards?  The key is to have a good supply of Silver and Golds mixed in the deck, something that early Caches contribute heavily to.
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chwhite

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #171 on: October 21, 2011, 11:45:28 am »
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You know what's awesome?  Haggling Platinums.  Probably one of the more obvious Hinterlands interactions, though.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 12:00:30 pm by chwhite »
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Fangz

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #172 on: October 21, 2011, 12:09:55 pm »
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Sorry for being posty mcposterson this morning, but I feel like I am getting a good grasp on Hinterlands now.  It is starting to really gel.

The reason that I think Cache is a superb opener is that the two coppers actually help!  The starting Estates control a smaller share of the deck and it becomes very easy indeed to buy early Gold.  Yes, the two coppers also bring down the value of the Cache itself and the early Gold purchases but that is mitigated by having a live "Gold" available starting on turn 3.

That's only true if the average value of your deck is less than a copper though. I mean, what cache is up against is the rest of the $5s, and given how great they are, I can't see the value of cache being so great. If the extra coppers really help so much, you'd be seeing a lot more merchant ship/copper openings, instead of it being generally thought better to open $5 card/nothing at all.

I think you are getting caught up too much on a few rare games where cache just happened to be effective. I tried the haven/jack of all trades strategy, and yeah, while it is indeed strong, the 12 turn 6 province is *far* from an usual case. You gotta realise that when people run from isotropic to post about a great new combo, regression from the mean kinda says it's not going to be as impressive in the long term.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 12:11:57 pm by Fangz »
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #173 on: October 21, 2011, 12:26:19 pm »
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I think what MMM is saying is Cache is just so good in the early rounds and because Hinterlands deals effectively with junk in the mid-to-late rounds, the card's value is underrated. Going to solo some games right now and see how I do with it.
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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #174 on: October 21, 2011, 12:32:48 pm »
0

Sorry for being posty mcposterson this morning, but I feel like I am getting a good grasp on Hinterlands now.  It is starting to really gel.

The reason that I think Cache is a superb opener is that the two coppers actually help!  The starting Estates control a smaller share of the deck and it becomes very easy indeed to buy early Gold.  Yes, the two coppers also bring down the value of the Cache itself and the early Gold purchases but that is mitigated by having a live "Gold" available starting on turn 3.

That's only true if the average value of your deck is less than a copper though. I mean, what cache is up against is the rest of the $5s, and given how great they are, I can't see the value of cache being so great. If the extra coppers really help so much, you'd be seeing a lot more merchant ship/copper openings, instead of it being generally thought better to open $5 card/nothing at all.
(boldings mine)
Yeah, and at the opening, the average value of your deck is less than a copper.
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